How To Be An Empathic Leadership

In this episode of Leading with Intention, Monique Gagnon discusses the concept of empathic leadership with guest Uche Maple. They explore the qualities of a good leader, the importance of developing relationships, and how to initiate conversations with higher-level leaders. Uche shares personal examples of leaders who saw and acknowledged her, making her feel valued. They also discuss the changing landscape of leadership and the shift towards empathy in the workplace. Empathic leadership involves understanding and connecting with others on a deeper level, which can lead to increased job satisfaction and performance. Welcome to Leading with Intention with Monique Gagnon. Over the next hour, you're going to learn how to lead more efficiently and effectively in a post-pandemic world where the workplace has changed dramatically. Now, here's Monique. Welcome. I'm Monique. Thank you so much for tuning in today. Many leaders have been given feedback that they need to display more empathy in the workplace. And statistics actually show us that 90% of American workers do feel that empathy leads to more job satisfaction. But what if you are a leader who doesn't really display empathy in the workplace? You're just not wired that way. Can you learn to be? How can you learn to be that way? We'll answer these questions today as we explore a concept called empathetic leadership or empathic leadership and why it's so important in organizations and how you can quantify its impact on performance. I'm here today with Uche Maple. Uche runs a successful leadership and business training company. She has a 20-year career in engineering. She is a speaker, coach, and mentor in the STEM and business community. Welcome, Uche. Thank you. Thank you very much. Glad to be here. And I'm really excited to have you here today to talk about this topic of empathic leadership. Before we talk about the empathy part of leadership, let's talk more about leadership in general. What kind of a leader do you think displays the important qualities? How do you define leadership? You know, that's a great question, and I actually, you know, this is one of the best questions that people usually ask. It's like, you know, we're dismissifying leadership in itself. You know, everyone has a different definition in terms of what, you know, what leadership is. And it encompasses so many layers. To me, I just keep it really simple. Leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less. And, you know, within that, because in order to have influence, you need to be able to lead, and there are certain domains within that. But I really keep it simple so it's not overcomplicated in terms of what it, you know, what does leadership mean? And in your corporate career, you led many people. What would you say your leadership style is? So that's a great question, too. Over the years, my leadership style changed. And what I have come to find out is that the best leaders are the ones who it's like you're layering every new skill that you learn. In every environment, every situation, every person that you've met to become the leader that people trust, the leader that people can communicate with, the leader who can be a visionary, the leader who knows how to take chaos and put it in a way where it is thought-provoking so that you can have people buy in. And those are the words that I would use to describe the type of leader I am. And a lot of my clients, when they come to coaching, I ask them to define their goals. What do they want to work on in coaching? And they say, I want to be a really great leader. And they say to me, what is that? They're asking me. And I actually have to turn it back around to them because, like you're saying, it's a big umbrella for a lot of skills underneath it, and it could mean different things to different people. And I suppose it also depends on what kind of a corporate culture you're in, you know, how it's defined within your workplace and things like that. So it is really interesting to see how they react when I turn it back to them and say, well, what does that mean to you? And they really cannot answer right away. They have to go away and reflect on that because there are so many different skills under that umbrella. And you mentioned that it's influence. Like, to keep it simple, it's influence. What kinds of things help a person to be more influential? So I'm pausing because it's such a – that's an interesting question. When you are influencing, it is something that either you're learning or you already have. And one thing I had to come to realize is as a leader, you are – in order to get something done, you need to be able to influence and to develop the right relationships for people who have the resources, who have the networks that can open doors for you. So influencing in itself is when you know that you're not getting something that you want to implement, you are going to have to reflect to see what can I do to influence that person. And these are some of the things that I had to do that I learned very quickly early on, especially when you're trying to get side projects done or if you're trying to get someone extra money as a raise, right, or if you're just trying to – something as simple as have – you know, buy lunch for your team. It's really developing the relationship with the people who can impact and who can influence higher so that it makes it easier for you to lead the people who you – who expect you to lead them. Does that make sense, Monique? It does. It does. And it means you have to be very deliberate, almost have a strategy when developing – You have to be intentional. Yeah, so that you can develop the relationships with the right people. Some people feel that that's manipulative, that you're manipulating. If you're purposely developing relationships and going after a certain person because you want something, what would you say to that? I don't – no, that's not being manipulative. So you're either coming from two different parts, and that really is a testament to you as an individual. The type of person that I am, when I need to strategize to get something done, I am never coming from a malicious place, because my question is, what's the end game? What will happen if I don't – if I'm not able to complete this? And that doesn't mean – just because you're developing a relationship with the person doesn't mean that – and you're strategizing doesn't mean that you don't want to develop a relationship with them. You may find that you have some things similar and, you know, and that it goes, you know, far beyond just the workplace. But in general, if you are coming to work every day in an environment, and if you're not developing tactical relationships, then you really are doing a disservice to not only you, but the people that you're leading as well. And I think one of the other things that makes that distinction between manipulative and not manipulative is that there's transparency in relationships where you're explaining to people what it is you need or what it is you're trying to do or what the goals are or what the goals of the team are. So they aren't going into this blindly. They know that you're trying to accomplish something, that you are, you know, needing something from them. So I don't think – yeah, that's a really – thank you for breaking that down and explaining that, because I do have a lot of clients when we start talking about leadership and influence, they feel like they're not being authentic when they do that, or maybe they are an introvert by nature. So that's a good point. And here's what I have come to realize. When I do encounter other leaders or even, you know, team leaders, and when I give them this advice, I always ask, what's the root? So tell me why are you uncomfortable doing this? And they really have to go back to see where did that behavior come from, because it's not something you were taught. You were not born to think that developing relationships is, you know, is manipulative. Where did that come from? And what ends up happening is that it's something that has happened in their past, something that they've experienced or something someone has done to them. And they internalize that and don't want to do that to others. But, again, in order to be a leader of an organization, a leader of people, and if you are being innovative and creative and looking to what is next, what's happening, you're going to have to be able to mature enough to understand that transparency is the key, developing trustworthy relationships as they evolve so that they can be continuous and so that you don't feel that way. But more importantly, you're going to have to address the root of where did that behavior come from. And when people are trying to develop these relationships, so they have created this strategy of who they need to develop relationships with, how do they actually go about that? Is it really as simple as scheduling a coffee chat? Yeah. So I've done a lot of different ways. So the strategy has matured over time. Right. So earlier in my career, it would be I just walk in the office and say, hey, can I get on your calendar? I really want to pick your brain because I'm having some of this blah, blah, blah. And they're like, OK, yeah. And then, you know, the more that as I matured into my career, I would I would I would ask them for coffee and say, hey, do you mind if we go have coffee? One, I work for you. So I'm always a fan. And I tell everyone is it is important for you to get to know the person that you're working for. Because you need to decide whether or not you want to work for them, because if their values are not in alignment with who you are, then that may not be the organization or the team lead for you. So I always meet with all my leaders all the way up to vice president if I have access to them, because I really want to get a chance to know who they are as a person versus the picture that I see and their bio. I want to be able to develop a relationship with you, not only that, so that whatever objectives you have that are in alignment with where my organization is going, how can I help you meet that so that we can push the envelope forward, especially in the engineering field, so that we can be more innovative and creative and solve these solutions that people say that are impossible and we make the possible possible. I think it can be so empowering. Some people are very intimidated by senior leaders and people in the C-suite. So they purposely do not develop relationships with them because it's intimidating. But when they do develop those relationships, I think it can be very empowering. And it can help build confidence in leaders or in potential leaders to be talking right next to someone who is a higher level than them, getting to know them. So it does a lot, and even confidence contributes to building leadership skills, because you've got to have that confidence as a leader. So I think that those coffee chats are really important. And the all-hands meetings that they have, too, right? So they usually have all-hands meetings, and they usually have also more intimate meetings. I can't remember what they call it, but that's a great opportunity as well when it's like maybe a team of five or a team of ten and you're meeting with them, because that really starts at the vice president level where they do a lot of that. So because it gives them more insight into what's happening, you know, across the organization, it's a great way. And they're usually open and very transparent, and that is actually the introduction, right? So if you're talking about strategy, when you first meet them, you have that introduction, and then from there you can just follow up with them every quarter. Something just even like a 30-minute, you know, tag up, and take it out of their office. Don't put it in the office because, one, they get interrupted a lot, and, two, it makes it feel more stuffy where you're not able to be yourself. And, you know, have a walk around, go to the cafeteria, and that way that's how those relationships start. So if you ever get an opportunity, the first initial one, just keep making those check-ins and be innovative and creative on how you're talking and meeting with them. So it's got to be consistent, which is what a strategy is, consistently moving forward in that way. For people who are pretty intimidated by those initial one-to-ones or coffee chats, or maybe they are pretty introverted and this is a huge step for them to take, what would that first conversation look like? What kinds of things would they say? How would they initiate the conversation? So what usually happens is at the C-suite level, they are very aware of that. They know that everyone is not comfortable speaking out. So if you are in that environment, I'm going to give you two ways to do this. If you're in that environment and your leader is asking you questions, just answer back. That's the first thing because they'll continue to ask. They will continue to ask because they are aware of that. And if you are still uncomfortable even after that following up, get a support system so you can have someone to pump you up and tell you to do it. Okay. The second thing is that if you are in an environment and they are not engaging with you, you could simply do when they, you know, pay attention to what's being said, especially if you are more comfortable sending out e-mails. Just send an e-mail with them, follow it up and say, that was such a great conversation. These are some of the great takeaways that I took from that. And I definitely look forward to talking to you soon. What's going to happen is that they will initiate it. They'll probably say, that's great. I'm going to get my administrator on there and she can set up a meeting when you're available. Talk to her. So those are two different ways on how introverts or people who are uncomfortable that you can maximize and take advantage of that situation. How did you get into this work? You know what? My first job was in Tucson, Arizona at a defense company, and I got part, I was, my first role in terms of something outside of work was being part of the ERG, and I was the diversity chair. So that was like, that was 22, I was 22 years old. That was my introduction to being in the room with the CEO, the vice president of engineering, vice president of operations. And they, you know, just watching, and because I was in that position, I had to talk. And from there, it just continued? It just continued from there, yeah. We've been here with Uche Maple talking about leadership. What is leadership? What are some of the qualities of leadership? How to develop initial relationships, especially if you're a little intimidated or if you're an introvert. We're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we will hear about empathic leadership. So stay tuned. We'll be right back. Follow Voice America at Facebook.com forward slash Voice America for juicy updates from your favorite radio shows and podcasts. At MD Consulting, we provide executive coaching to leaders struggling with workplace challenges and pain points. Unlike other coaching companies that use a band-aid approach, we have a specific set of tools and processes to thoroughly root cause and unpack a client's challenges. Our specialized method helps you implement measurable and sustainable solutions to enhance your leadership skills and develop your team. Visit www.mdconsultingglobal.com to book a complimentary breakthrough session. The latest business information is made simple with the Voice America Business Network. 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Have a question for Monique or her guests? Email monique at monique at mdconsultingglobal.com. Now back to the show. Welcome back. We've been talking to Uche Maple about leadership and the characteristics of a good leader. We're going to continue this conversation talking about leadership and get into the concept of empathic leadership. Uche, who would you consider to be an ideal leader? So that is two. I'm going to answer it this way and I'm going to keep it at the grassroots level. OK. My first two years of my career is two leaders that I want to give an example of that are phenomenal. So the first 10 years of my career. I know I had never had a leader really engage with me. Initially, a front first. So the first time, because normally I have to, you know, initiated. But in 2010, because I know the dates, 2010, I was starting a new job in Maryland. And the first day they were had, they were getting ready for this huge milestone event. And I was walking to the room and this this man comes out and, you know, he's on his phone and I'm trying to figure out where I am. And he's like, hey, how are you doing? What's your name? And I was like, you know, telling him introduce myself. And he's like, OK, great. Have you here? Go ahead and go inside. We're about to get started. And I was like, wow, he's nice. So I walk in, I find my seat. And and then when it starts, I find out that he is the program manager of this huge program that I'm working on. And that in itself, that was the first time I said that's the leader I want to be, because he did three things. He saw me. He acknowledged me, which made me feel valued. And I was and he and, you know, just the initial he's a great leader. But that moment was like that is one of the best leaders I've ever encountered with. The second example is 2016. I was at a different company and it's my first weekend. And I come into the room and everyone is sitting in this horseshoe huge conference room. And it's a horseshoe and everyone is sitting down because they're about to present. And and I sit on the side and this gentleman gets up and he comes over and introduces himself to me. And he didn't say his title. So that's the difference. You're going to find leaders that don't tell you their title. He didn't say his title. He's just like, welcome. Glad to see you here. Can't wait to see amazing things you're going to do. And I was like, hey, you know, I'm thinking it's just another colleague. And then when the meeting starts and they introduce themselves, he is my director. And again, he saw me. He acknowledged me and he made me feel valued. So those three things are things that I use instrumentally every time, whenever I go anywhere to anyone who I don't know that's in the room with. I make sure that I see them and I acknowledge them so that they know that they feel valued. I love that story because when people think of leadership, they think of all kinds of skills like you have to have executive presence. You have to listen well. You have to ask open ended questions. There's a lot of things and all of those things do make a good leader. But seeing someone and acknowledging them, don't we all want that? As human beings, it's kind of simple if you think about it. Just to see and acknowledge someone. Tell us about empathic leadership. Yes. So this is I'm excited about this topic. Leadership has changed so much in terms of how we're leading leading organizations within the last two to three years. Normally. You were told, leave your feelings at the door. You come into the workplace. It's all about work, work, work, work, work. And as a result of that, I believe that a lot of leaders, especially managers who are dealing who are on the on the ground, we sort of turn off those soft skills because we're really like in executing mode all the time. And, you know, it's when someone is having an issue, you're like having to step back and and say, OK, I got to. I got to go find out where the soft skill is that exists in my brain. And, you know, in the midst of the pandemic. Leaders who are leading people. They have had to take on so much extra roles and responsibilities. And. What I found out was that what people needed most. Besides compassion was really someone to be able to have empathy with them. And as an example, in the midst of 2020, when everything was happening, I would get calls from, you know, people that were supporting my program and said, hey, you know, my family never passed away or I got COVID or this happened. And in the normal situation, I'm going to this is this is just how different it is in the normal situation, because we have to execute. Normally, when you hear this, you really are like zero tolerance. OK, when are you going to come home? Even when someone has passed, you know, OK, you got three days. When you coming back, make sure it gets done. OK, who's taking over? And that the shift in itself did not start from the task itself, but from the person itself. And when you know, so it went from when you know how you get your work done to OK, are you OK? I understand. Take the time you need. Got it. And once you went through that process, you then go into because you're not going to be here and we don't want your work to get behind or you to feel bad because you're not here. Is there someone who can come in and at least do 25 percent of the work? And that was how the conversation was. We had to have those conversations because we needed to put ourselves in other people's shoes so that they know that they're not alone and that we're in this fight with you. And that's the difference in terms of what is happening now is that leaders are having to you're having to be things that they've never done before or be before. And it's more than just training. We are now having to confront things. That we didn't have to before. Behaviors we didn't know we had. Having empathy and compassion that we didn't. You know, we if you are in an environment or if your if your childhood did not have that, you are now having to develop soft skills that you never had to use before and have empathy towards people. Where no one probably had empathy for you. So that that's why I'm loving it, because having this in the workplace now not only builds performance for for everyone who's working for a leader, even the leader themselves, because now they get to learn how to have empathy for themselves. We now get to have empathy for us. Right. Because everyone is expecting a leader to figure this out. Who's thinking about us? So we now have to say to ourselves that you can still only do what you can do, but you're doing the best that you can do with what you have. And I believe that that is where we're at. What is happening right now? I think the big question is, how does someone do that? If they've never had empathy shown to them, if they've never displayed it in the workplace, maybe they do outside of work. But in the workplace, it's that left brain task oriented data. Get the job done. How does someone learn to display more empathy? So, of course, they have training. HR is having training. And what is happening now is that as a result of their training, leaders are having to make two decisions. One, if they want to continue to learn about this. So that they can improve on it and be the person that the current environment calls for. Or two, they can decide. I don't want to do this. If I have to lead and I have to now be able to exhibit this behavior and trait or just really overall, right, I need to do this because that's what is required. I don't think I can do this. So I need to step down. And that has and I'm not saying that people have been doing it as a result of that. But leaders now, there are more leaders of people who are stepping down as a result just of everything that is happening, because it is you're taking on more responsibilities and behaviors that even you it's becoming a workload for you. So that's that's really the choice that they have. So. So, you know, I tell everyone is that as a leader, you've taken the training. Right. So we were just having this conversation earlier today. I was on a call because I'm doing a talk on diversity, inclusion and equity and belonging. And the question was that, well, you know, it's difficult for leaders. They're uncomfortable. And my comment is, is that if you're a leader of people, you've taken the training. There's multiple training. You've got YouTube university. We have therapists that we can talk to. We have counselors that we can talk to. Because, you know, more. Then the people that's working for you by default, you have to do more. If that's just what it is, you know, more than they know. So the expectation is that you need to begin to practice it. You may not be an expert at first. It may feel uncomfortable whenever you're doing something for the first time. It usually is. But until you begin to practice it and become better at it, you're going to always feel as if you're uncomfortable with it. And that's the difference. That is such a good point, because we all have to remember, as we learn these skills, no matter what skill it is, it will feel really awkward, really uncomfortable. It will not be perfect. We will mess up a lot while we're learning. But you're right. Leaders are expected to do more and know more. And to take that step and step up and do what's expected. How does empathy in the workplace impact performance? So it's two things. One, with the people that's working for you, it actually gives them a sense of comfort to know that they're not going to be penalized for having whatever issues that they come to you. Because in the past, if you interview other people who work for leaders, they have been penalized for having whatever. And they went to their leader to let them make aware of what is happening for them. And in the environment that I have been a part of, I've seen that shift where leaders are more, they have more compassion and they are expressing more empathy. And with the employee, they now feel like they can trust the person they work for. And what ends up happening is that instead of their performance going down, it actually ends up going up because, right, they are more excited to work. They feel like they are in an environment that's familiar, that I feel safe here. I don't feel like anyone is going to penalize me because I have this work or this home issue and I need to just take off for a moment. It actually improves performance, engagement, and it definitely improves the relationship building between the leader and the person that works for them. And how do you quantify that? Well, so, you know, if we want to look at it from work performance, right, they're getting their work done quicker. It's more quality work. They're coming by asking you to review stuff. You find them coming by your office, engaging with you. They don't mind sparking up a conversation with you. I'm saying those are some of the things that you can be aware of. But even if you're doing one-on-one, just meeting with them and tagging up with them one-on-one, they usually give you more information. And, too, something else you can do as well is that if they're supporting other projects and programs, you can go and get feedback from the people they're supporting as well to see how their engagement and how their performance is. There's been numerous times where an employee was, for whatever issue, they were just having a difficult time in this particular season. And what I tell everyone is this was the best advice someone gave to me. In different times of your life, you are going to have seasons where you have peak and valley. And that is normal because you are going through different things. You're either getting married, having kids, whatever it is. Right. And you it's OK. Do not beat yourself up. That was the best advice that a leader gave me when I was younger. And that is something that I have now pulled forward. So whenever I'm in an environment with other leaders and as soon as they are trying to critique or criticize when someone is having a valley, especially when they've had nothing but mountains and peaks, I quickly have to remind them that in everyone's season, everyone has different things that they're dealing with. But that does not mean that we get to criticize them or deem them for their performance because right now this is just where they are. So this really goes back to what we were talking about before break, developing relationships, developing trust. If you have empathy, even if you're just learning how to do it, it's easier to build trust. It's easier to build relationships, which takes us back to influence. It's easier to influence people if you have that empathy, if you're if you've developed that soft skill. And all of that can definitely contribute to an organization's bottom line. And it depends on the positioning you are as well. So how are you positioning yourself in the organization? Are you positioning yourself as a person who's an influencer, as a person who's trustworthy, as a person that people trust? Are you are you a person who whose work is quality that people know that when you do something, your word is your word? So that says a lot, because the more you do that consistently, even in your moments of valley, we all will have empathy and compassion because we know that this is just a moment in time of where you are right now. And it actually contributes to branding, to personal branding. Of course. I had a guest on a few weeks ago, Lindsay Dowd, and we were talking about branding and it was just part of our lengthy conversation. But definitely, if you are seen as someone with empathy and you can be trusted, you develop relationships easily. People can count on you. You'll be seen as that. You'll be able to position yourself that way, which contributes to your brand, which everyone it's a it's a big thing right now. Everyone's trying to figure out how to brand themselves and what is branding and all of that. Absolutely. Which I laugh now. I'm like, I thought this is what we were doing the whole time when we was working, that you had your own brand anyway. But I guess not everyone's like, what's their personal brand? But, you know, that was someone told me that, too. They said that the biggest thing you want to work on is developing your brand in the workplace. And I was like, aha, that's key. So you're being strategic, meaning relationships, strategic in terms of the work that you take on, strategic in terms of where you volunteer, who you volunteer with and how you build. This is the key that I tell everyone. How you build your relationship. So you are doing things locally, which is in the organization. But you always have the opportunity to do things globally, which is out of the organization. And you simply only thing you have to do for that is speak in engagements, be on panels and write technical letters and submit it to organizations that is in alignment with your industry. Those three simple things is how you can go from local to global in terms of branding. We've been talking to UJ Mabel about empathetic leadership, empathic leadership. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll talk about what you can do, even if you're not a leader, how you can develop empathy and display it in the workplace. So stay tuned. We'll be right back. 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Email Monique at moniqueatmdconsultingglobal.com. Now, back to the show. Welcome back. Uche and I have been talking about a concept called empathic leadership, how organizations can benefit from implementing this concept. We're going to pivot a little bit now and come at this topic from a different perspective, from someone who is not a leader. So, Uche, what can you say to all the direct reports out there who are not leaders? They are not people leaders. They don't have direct reports of their own. How can they implement this concept? So, one of the best things is that, you know, even though you're not leading people, you are still leading. I always tell everyone that you are a leader by default because even as you're building your brand and you have assignments and work that you're responsible for, you are leading that effort. And I think one of the biggest ways is that for individual contributors is to just be a listening ear to your fellow teammates because they're going to come to you first. They feel like, especially if you've been working in teams and you guys have been working on a project and you develop a great relationship, when they are going through times of challenge, you're going to be the first person that they turn to. So, just listen. Just listen. Show compassion. Let them know that they're not alone and that if it is something that becomes very serious, that I always say recommend for them, you know, recommend like, hey, you need to go talk to the manager. So, the biggest thing is just being a listening ear so that they know that they're not alone. Is it possible for someone to have too much empathy? Yeah, because you're listening to everybody's problems and you don't get anything done. So, you have to be definitely aware of that as well because that is that you do have people who are very sensitive to other people's emotions and they can definitely get caught up. So, you just need to be aware of your own, have your own. When they talk about emotional intelligence, be aware of, you need to be aware of your environment. And if you, if it's impacting you from performing the way you need to perform at work or even just at home and you are just like over, over involved with other people and what's going on and it's affecting you, you need to really take a step back. And that way you need to monitor what you take in, who you listen to and be able to set boundaries so that it's not taking over your life. Yeah, those boundaries are really important. I have some clients who are so high on that empathy scale. They are people leaders and they can't give feedback to their direct reports because they feel guilty about it. They can't give them any kind of constructive feedback. And it's a disservice to the direct report because that person then cannot improve. So, in coaching, we actually have to work on setting those boundaries and downplaying that empathy a little bit. And I think it's, there's times when you do have to have a lot of it and times where you have to downplay it. And like you said, you need to be aware enough to know when to do which. Yes. Depending on the situation. What's the difference between sympathy and empathy? Yes. So, the way I look at it is that sympathy is you feel bad for them. You understand them. You're like, OK, I feel bad for you. But empathy is you actually walking in their shoes. Like you picture yourself in their position, which gives you a different insight. It's the same as if for all our listeners who are on Facebook, when someone posts that someone has passed, two things happen. The people who that has never happened to, they're expressing sympathy. The others who have had someone pass away in their life, you can tell the difference because they put in the comments, I remember that feeling when such and such passed in my life. So, they are now seeing themselves in that position and they can relate more versus just offering condolences. What do you think leaders can do to contribute to a more positive culture? Oh, yeah. You know, it's a lot of things you can do. One, I used to love when our leader used to take us out for lunch all the time. That was great. We used to go like maybe once a year. They'll do outside. They would take us to a place where we just had fun. We went out of a huge hall and we just really had a good time. Other things was that they had a party at work and it was like at 4 o'clock. So, it wasn't too late where they're like, oh, my God, you got to do all your hours. And, you know, everyone just had a great time. The biggest thing is, right, so you just want to make sure that you're providing a way for people to be able to let off steam and for them to laugh and just enjoy the moment and to really see everyone in the organization in a different state. You are not in because normally as a leader, you know, it's certain things because we're always either putting out fires or doing something. But when we're in an environment where we're just having fun, you get to see us in a different light. And you normally hear people like, oh, they're cool. Oh, that was actually fun. So you get to know them more and more on a personal level. What are some things that you think create poor leadership? A leader that doesn't talk to you. But just might engage if they're in our office all the time, they don't come out and speak to anyone unless they have to. And then even then, when they're trying to give you constructive feedback and you ask questions, they can't even give you anything definite. A poor leader is someone who's just disengaged. With the people. With the people, right? Yeah. And I have had clients tell me before that they I mean, part of the coaching I do, they need to collect feedback about themselves so that we can work on their blind spots and things like that. And they specifically ask their leader for feedback and their leader doesn't give them any or constantly just says, you're doing great. Don't worry about it. You know, if something's broken, I'll tell you. But the leader does not really contribute to that person's growth. Doesn't have career conversations with them. Doesn't, like you say, engage. And I think now, especially post-COVID, people need more of that connection with their leaders. So here's my advice for that is. If you have a leader. That is not engaged with you. One. Don't expect all leaders to be leaders. Because if they're doing that, you don't want them to lead you. You don't want to develop bad habits. That's the first thing. Secondly, you can easily, easily go and find someone else. Who you can develop a relationship that's a leader, really someone who is not at your leader's level. Go a little bit higher. Go higher than that and develop a relationship with them. And it'd be great if you are doing anything and you're working for them because they can give you constructive feedback on your performance. Don't just don't ever, ever think that there is no way around you excelling or having some, you know, not having a leader who are not meeting your expectations. There are always ways where you can find other people who can do that and that they will be more than happy to help you be the better person that you want to be and where you want to go with your career aspirations. Yeah, I always think it's sad when someone says that they have a leader that feels very disengaged and that leader is also their mentor. And they're telling me I'm just not getting anywhere in my career because my manager is also my mentor and I'm not growing, I'm not developing. So I think as employees, everyone has to take ownership of their own professional growth. And if you're not getting somewhere with your leader and if you haven't been able to give that person feedback about it, like you said, find another way around, find somebody else that will engage with you and help you grow. Because in the workplace now, I mean, we spend all of our time there at work most of our time. So it needs to be a place where we're growing and flourishing and that we're happy. So can I just say this real quick? Yeah. If this if that is you, as Monique has described, and your leader is your mentor or. Both right. Vice versa. This is going to be difficult and it's going to be difficult, especially if you have less than five years, unless you are type A personality. This is going to be difficult. But here is the reality. You're going to have to do either two things. Stay where you are. And be suppressed in your career. Or take ownership. And move to someone else. Who is invested in you. I know someone who stayed in that position. They stayed under leader for 20 years. Who was toxic. They are still recovering from that. OK, don't ever feel like you have to stay with something. Someone when they're not beneficial for you. That's all I got, Monique. Great, great advice. Thank you for that. What's the hardest leadership decision you've ever made? Firing somebody. That's the hardest one. Yeah. Yeah. Even. Yeah. It never gets easy. Period. Yeah. It's a hard one to to swallow. Not not laying them off. Nothing. Yeah. I'm saying when you when you have to fire them, that's that's a difficult conversation. And and it's yeah, you you you earn your stripes when you're doing that because you don't know the outcome of what could happen. And especially if you're a person high on empathy and you have to do something like that. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about your business and what you do there. Yes. Thank you for asking. So I own Noteworthy Consulting and it is a leadership and team dynamic. Training company where we offer coaching and training services. What we are what we are striving for is to help teams become more engaged so that we can increase retention and that using strength based solutions. And what we want and what we want to do is to help leaders, because they're taking on so many responsibilities, learn how to lean on their strengths that will help reduce burnout, that will help reduce leadership turnover and increase their overall engagement in the workplace so that they can have better performance and they can have overall well-being as well. Definitely a much needed service. And you go into organizations and do this. Yes, we do. Yeah, we can do it inside or outside. It depends, you know, if they want to rent a different place and they don't want to be inside. It just depends on what they want and what typically what someone will reach out to us. They'll tell us their needs. We'll have a conversation, develop a proposal, and then we'll just take it from there. So that's the process that we use. We've been here with Uche Maple today talking about empathic leadership. Uche, thank you so much for being here. This has been a really insightful conversation. How can our listeners reach you? Absolutely. So you can reach me simply by going to my Web site, www.UcheMaple.com. I know that's a lot of letters and syllables, but it will be I'm going to assume that it will be in there in terms of my name. But it's just www.UcheMaple.com. And that is all my handle on all my social media as well. Great. Thank you so much. And listeners can connect with me on LinkedIn, either my personal profile, Monique Dunois, or my business page, MD Consulting, or mdconsultingglobal.com, which is my Web site. And on the Web site, there is a resource page where you can download a lot of complimentary resources, sign up for the blog, connect with me on all the other social media platforms, and stay tuned for next week. Make sure you come back next week because we're going to be talking with Nita Sweeney about mindfulness in the workplace, another much-needed topic for discussion. So enjoy the rest of your week. And during your week, don't forget to lead with intention. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Leading with Intention. Our intention is that you walk away from this show today with new tools, techniques, and insights that help you lead more effectively and have greater impact within your company. Until we talk again, have a great week.