WW EP02 - Mehar x Prakash

Bosses are often misunderstood and villainized, but there are cool bosses out there. Bosses should focus on being good leaders rather than trying to be liked by their team. Relationships with managers are important for job satisfaction. Bad bosses may be a result of insecurity or past experiences. It's important for employees to speak up and not tolerate toxic work environments. Being a boss is a privilege and an opportunity to make a positive impact. Knowing and understanding your team is crucial for effective leadership. Rivalry among bosses is normal, but it should drive improvement rather than bring others down. Your subordinates are usually way smarter than you are. They're younger, they're more vetted, they're far more forthcoming, better informed. Just to come back to your point about do you want to be liked by your team, there's a saying that if you want to be liked, go and sell ice cream. Don't be a leader. And we don't pause to think, maybe I'm my boss. Maybe I did something which made my boss go home and cry. Not many people like their boss. And mostly there's a good enough reason as to why. After all, there is no smoke without fire. Since time immemorial, bosses have been villainized. Today, let's try and explore, are you sure that your boss is bad? Or are they simply just misunderstood? Let us try and give them a chance and hear their side of the story. Is being a boss a thankless job? Or have we become too critical in evaluating our bosses? Are we thinking too much? We are after all talking about these bosses who give us Monday blues and peanuts in the name of appraisal. Well, let's try and figure that out today and get to the bottom of this in our episode of Workwise with Naukri. From transitioning dilemmas like quitting or switching your job to the dreaded career breaks. From make or break situations like negotiating CTCs or handling feedback between peers. To people related complexities like having a difficult manager or a toxic work environment. Workwise, we cover it all. Hi, I'm Naukri and I'm here to talk to you about the importance of being a boss. And how to deal with the fact that you are either having a difficult manager or a toxic work environment. Workwise, we cover it all. Hi, welcome to Workwise with Naukri, a show to help you work better and accelerate your career. I'm Deva Gupta. I'm Neha Sindhu Batra. I'm Deepak Pari. We'll be your podcast host, helping you better tackle those work woes. McKinsey has identified that relationships with managers are the main factor when it comes to employee job satisfaction. Your manager will have a great impact on your motivation levels and in turn, how long you end up working with their company. But still, we know that there are many employees who end up feeling neglected, ignored and upset. And I have been there myself. Are bosses doing anything at all to deal with these kind of employees and their feelings? If yes, why are so many employees still feeling upset? Are they being thankless or are their bosses' efforts half-hearted? Let's try and understand this from our guest today, Prakash Iyer, who is a leadership coach and author of national bestselling books like The Secret of Leadership and The Habit of Winning. He's had a long career. He started his career quite literally by selling soap, cola and everything in between. He started as a product manager at Hindustan Unilever. He served as an executive director at PepsiCo and in his last corporate job, he was the MD and CEO of Kimberly Clark Lever. Mr. Prakash has a wide experience of working and coaching several bosses and leading a team as a boss himself. People who work with Prakash say that he's the coolest boss ever, but can bosses be cool? And what makes them cool? This is counterintuitive to what most of us feel. This is what we're going to explore today. Prakash, I'm really excited to have you as a guest on the show because you work with so many leaders through your coaching and I've heard you've met some cool bosses. Sure, you know, we say this to our bosses' faces because we want to remain in their good books. But is it really true? Do tell us, Prakash, are you a cool boss? Do you think there are cool bosses out there or is it really just a myth? Do I see myself as a cool boss? I probably pause and say, forget the cool bit. I doubt if I even saw myself as a boss. And I think that can be a word that can perhaps set, you know, alarm bells ringing in our heads to say, yeh boss hai. I never saw myself as a boss. If you ask me, was I a cool colleague? I'd like to believe I was a cool colleague. Was I a cool manager to have around? I'd like to believe I was a cool manager to have around. And I think I want to make that point here that I'm sure there are cool bosses and there are cool leaders. But equally, I'm sure there are a few people who get it wrong. So I don't think anybody sets out in the morning and says, today I'm going to be this bad boss. I don't think anyone does that deliberately. But, yeah, we make mistakes and hopefully we learn from those mistakes. So that's the way I see it. Let's talk about, you know, these people who say that their boss is amazing, out of the world. These are people who coach and motivate, inspire others to work along with them. You know, they are positive people. They're empathetic. They are self-aware. So what do you think makes someone a good boss? How did they, you know, get to this position of being a good boss? This means that you don't have to be a leader or a boss to do this. You could be who you are. And I'll give you some simple examples. You know, many of us, we have a problem. We complain about our bosses. But we also complain about the maid at home. And we are now complaining about the boss. And we forget, in this case, we are the boss to that maid. And we are not getting it right. And I think we need to learn to get it right with the people we work with. And I think it's a good idea for all of us to start small. And start by saying, how do I learn to be good with the people I'm around? I can be a good boss by just being a good person here. Mayher, I must tell you a little story. You know, I used to work for PepsiCo. And my boss was a man called Suman Sinha. Great guy. You know, fabulous boss to have. And I still think one of the great things he did, I remember a slide that he put up in a presentation. And that slide, you know, like everybody has this org structure. CEO on top, vice president below, general manager, and then all of us at the bottom over there. So when Suman put up this slide, the slide was upside down. Suman said, this is the organization I'm trying to build. At the top of this organization are our frontline people. Our, you know, our executives, our sales guys, the people who work in our factories, people who are out there on the shop floor. They are on the top of this organization. They are closest to our customers. They will decide what this company will do. Below them is a set of managers whose job is to help those people. Below them is a set of general managers whose job is to help the rest of the team to ensure we are doing what the frontline needs. And he would say, you know, I'm the CEO. I'm at the bottom of this organization. My job is simple. I just need to make sure that I'm doing whatever it takes to make sure everybody is helping the man in the front or the woman in the front. It's a great example and very inspiring. I think it all comes down to how you are as a boss. But unfortunately, Prakash, not all bosses are, you know, they don't challenge in a positive way. Like you said, sometimes they are just mean, you know, outrightly mean. And I've personally had to deal with certain people like these. And I feel sometimes, you know, that they are carrying that baggage, that history of maybe dealing with similar bosses in the past. You know, like they say, boss was subordinate to someone. So is it because they're carrying all this trauma of dealing with such terrible people in their past experiences that they're bringing that forward in their current experience with their employees right now? This is true. Bad bosses are often products of, you know, insecurity. If I feel unsure about myself, if I feel insecure, if I feel if I've been massively let down by people I've trusted, then I find it difficult to trust other people. So it's not just about a boss. Sometimes it's about our childhood. It's about our upbringing. It could be the way our parents treated us. It could be the way, you know, maybe an early partner or a friend treated us. And all of that can impact the kind of behavior that we will now display. And that behavior, I must confess, will show up whether you're a boss or even if you're a colleague or a subordinate. But I think for all of us younger people out there, I would, you know, I would say two things. One, you're right. Kyunki boss bhi kabhi subordinate tha is true. But tell yourself, yaar, mera number aayega. One day I will be boss, yaar. And when I'm a boss, I will get it right. Don't wait that when I become boss, I will start behaving like this. Whatever you might have done as a boss, do it today. OK. And as a boss, if you have learned to communicate better, if you will learn to clarify, if you learn to get other people excited, if you will learn to be the kind of person who helps other people, learn to celebrate other people's success. If you now don't like your colleague doing better than you, what chance will you have when you become a boss that you will want other people to do well? You will again want yourself. Your focus will be on me, myself, my career. If you can let go of that, if you can be the kind of person today who's saying I'm very good at it, let me help her. Your secret competitive edge is your ability to help other people do well. And if you can help enough other people do well, you'll do well for yourself. And I think you'll become a fantastic leader. I love that, Prakash. That is that is a very positive way of looking at things and dealing with a boss who may be being a little bit mean. You know, you said they could be carrying not just history from their employment, but also maybe things that have happened to them in their personal lives. And that's impacting the way that they're behaving. So instead of maybe, you know, thinking that that person is so mean to me, they're so cruel, they're so toxic. Maybe feel bad for them and maybe they're carrying so much load on their shoulders. And that's what they're bringing onto the table at the end of the day. That's interesting. I have a question for you, Meher. You did say you had a terrible boss. Right. What did you do after that? Actually, I used to come home crying, Prakash. I didn't do anything much. You know, it was just it just lowers your self-esteem more than anything else. And I talked to a lot of students who are dealing with the same kind of toxicity at the workplace. And it makes me feel bad because a lot of us are feeling these feelings. And sometimes most of us can't do anything because we need that job or we need to, you know, we need that job for the money or for the experience or whatever. And we can't really voice what we are feeling many times. But, you know, like you said, I think it's it's about getting to a place of 360 degree feedback. Maybe, like, you know, the manager can also get feedback from their subordinates of how they are doing before they're complaining about someone who's senior to them. Yeah, but I feel bad. I feel bad for, you know, anyone like who was in your shoes in that sense to say it's a terrible place if you have to come home and you feel bad, you know, you feel like crying and you hate what you're doing. And in the unfortunate event that that happened to someone, I probably say this, you know, try speak to the boss. See if you can make that person see reason. And if it doesn't work, get out of that place. You know, I think our lives are too precious to be wasted in an environment which is toxic. And I love the point you made, which is, you know, no one would believe it. Seeing a confident woman like you today that, you know, it affected your self-confidence. And that is a terrible thing that bosses can do. The sense of self-worth, self-esteem. If someone is trampling over that, I think no one has the right to do it. And I must therefore add over here, you know, I had a driver many years ago with me for several years. And he, you know, his name was Karunan and he talked about how his life started, you know, how he learned to drive and then he got a job. And he said how, you know, the first job he got, the money wasn't very good. And but he said that the man he worked for was very good. That man, you know, gave him a lot of difficult things to do. At night, he asked him to come under the car and see, you know, help repair things. So he said not only did I learn to drive a car, I also understood what happens under the bonnet. So he said I became a better driver because I had a great boss to start with. And I must say this, if you ask me today, I would I would just say this, that I am the product of all the people that I might have worked with. And if I am, you know, if I managed to do a little bit in my life, it's largely because of the kind of people I was privileged to work with. And I think what's going to be the big thing in your life, check out what kind of a boss will you work for and make that the biggest determinant of the job. That you will hold. We all want a 10 on 10. Like you said, no, everything should be perfect. But yeah, I think going back to what you said about your driver's example, I feel that, you know, I may have had tough bosses, but they have made me a stronger person today and also have made me realize what is the kind of boss of leader that I don't want to be. Now that I have a team under me. Prakash, I just had a very wild thought. You know, we discussed how some bosses were mean to me and I went home crying after work many days. I just want to, you know, think about my boss for a second in that moment, in that organization, in that role. Is a boss also dealing with similar feelings when they are also overwhelmed, maybe they also are having bad days at work and going home crying, they're frustrated, maybe with people who are like their colleagues or maybe their subordinates. And they somehow feel like being a boss is really a thankless job. Do you think from that perspective, is that even possible or no? No, I think it's such a lovely thought. And, you know, I just think more people need to think like you on this one, which is, you know, we are very quick to say I went home and cried and we don't pause to think maybe I'm my boss. You know, maybe I did something which made my boss go home and cry. And I don't think any of us ever pauses to think. And even if that happens, we say, well done. You don't deserve to cry. Maybe that's how we think of it. But, yeah, I think we're all human. We all have our challenges. We all have our problems, our tensions. And, you know, it's fair to say that even for most of us, a young recruit into an organization and you have a leader or a boss, that boss also has a boss. Right. So they are no different. They probably have the same challenges. They probably sit and gossip about their boss with their colleagues. They probably have the same sense of frustration. So I think it's it's there. It's very much there. But I just want to make a point here that, you know, it's not as if a boss needs to say being a boss is a thankless job. I don't think a good leader would think of it that way. I think being a leader, being a boss is a privilege. It's something that you should feel very good about because you have a chance to make a bigger impact on other people. You stop or you move from being an individual contributor to being someone who can make a team contribute. And I think once you get that bit right, there's magic in it. It is such a good feeling to know that now it's no longer about what I can do. It's about what we can do and how can I help other people to then get it right. So I think it can become good. Now, there will be good days. There'll be bad days. There'll be times when you feel like crying. There'll be days when you feel frustrated. But here's what I feel that good leaders will not typically not want to blame their tears on someone else. Won't really want to blame their frustration on, you know, oh, my goodness, that employee is making me feel bad. I think a good leader will say, hang on. Why am I not getting it right with her? What do I need to do differently to get it right with her? And sometimes this whole approach of, you know, one size fits all. I will be the same. You know, I will treat everybody equally, etc. can become a problem because we are all built differently. And what might work with one particular subordinate may not work with another. And a good leader will recognize that and try and do it differently. You know, you talked about the human side of each boss. And like, do you feel like there are bosses that genuinely want to make that effort to get to know their team and their team to like them? Or are these efforts, you know, half-hearted with a mission, a secret mission behind them of getting the subordinates to love them? I've always believed that your subordinates are usually way smarter than you are. I think it's a good rule to to have in your life because you're younger, they're more with it. They're far more forthcoming, better informed. So if you do something half-hearted or if you don't really mean what you say, people see through it very easily. So I would say that I don't think anyone should even try that. Just to come back to your point about do you want to be liked by your team? There's a saying that if you want to be liked, go and sell ice cream. Don't be a leader. So I don't think it's it's your it's in your man, in your remit to say, oh, I'm a leader. I must be liked by my people. I think your remit is to say, I must do a good job. I must help my team to do well. I must push and challenge my team to deliver a level of performance, which even they would not have believed was possible. And I must do it in a manner which is good for them. Good for the business. If that's your remit, then you will start saying, what do I need to do to make that happen? Then you realize that, hey, I need to know my people. If I don't know them, how will I how will I lead them? So you start to know your people. So it's not about saying I need to know them because I need them to like me. You know, I think if your objective is to be liked, you'll get it wrong. Your objective has got to be to say, how do I do my job well? How do I help them to do their jobs well? How do I help them to deliver great results? And if you can do that, you will typically find that you're getting it right. But sometimes there may just be a boss figure who thinks that, OK, I'm doing all that I can for my team. I'm making all these efforts and I'm trying to be a good leader, but I'm not appreciated as much as my fellow colleague here, who may be a better leader, who may be a better boss. And it may feel like, you know, all this, all these efforts are futile. And in that situation, I want to ask you, would that boss be thinking is being a boss a thankless job? Is it never enough? No matter what I do, I'll never be that perfect leader that my colleague is like, you know, I won't be as good as him or her. Yeah, I think to be fair, a little bit of rivalry will exist everywhere. This, you know, looking over your shoulder, trying to see how other people are doing. But so long as it drives you to do better and get better, I think it's good. It's only when it starts becoming a bit of a negative energy or you trying to bring the other person down and, you know, all of that can become bad for everybody. And I'm sure a bit of that happens in organizations like it happens everywhere. I don't think, you know, it's not as if the bosses are in some rarefied atmosphere and they will behave very, very differently from the whole world. I think it can happen to all of us as human beings. But I would still come back to the fact that so long as this rivalry makes you want to do something better, it's a good thing. Very often you will find, you know, I'll say this about myself. I would have had the chance to work with other people who were, you know, who were great leaders. And sometimes they might be appreciative of something they've done, which is very good. So you also say, hey, let me also try and do it. OK. All of us do things which either our bosses did or we've heard other people do or we've seen other people do. And we hope it will work well for us. The key here is to be authentic, to be yourself, because if you try and be like some other leader, you'll get it wrong. Because you are who you are. You can never be like this other person. You can do some of those things. You can try, you know. So just because the other person is putting up a picture on Insta with his team and he's doing it every third day, doesn't mean you can do it if you're not that kind of person. And that doesn't make you a bad leader. In fact, if you try and put it up, people will say, you know, oh, my goodness, I thought here was a sensible leader. You know, unlike that other fellow, Megalomaniac, who's putting a picture every three days on Instagram. Right. So you will not be seen as doing the right thing necessarily. So be watch out for that one. As an employee, what can you do? I think give people a second chance. What often happens to us is we tend to brand people. We tend to box our bosses as, ye toh aisa hai, she's always doing this or he's always doing that. Don't fall into that trap. I think we all want to get better. We all want change. We all want feedback. So what will happen sometimes is that a boss will act on feedback and will try and make a change. And if as an employee or a subordinate, you pick that up, encourage that change. You should be saying, I'm delighted that this person is trying to make that change rather than saying, oh, yeah, you know, that was only once. And suddenly you are also helping the other person make that change. And I think we all can help each other get better. That makes the whole organization, the whole team get better. So that's it, my friends. Thank you so much, Prakash, for being here with us today. I have certainly learned a lot from you and have looked at things from a different perspective. And I do believe, like you said, that there are some people, there are some bosses out there who are trying to change this age old perception of, you know, fighting against this label of being villainized all the time and are actually genuinely making an effort to to be a better leader, have that team to actually be motivated and inspired to work with them towards a common goal for the organization. What do you all think? Do you think that your boss is making efforts in the right direction or are they not? Do you think that bosses are simply misunderstood or no, they're not? We'd love to hear from you. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Workwise with Naukri. I hope you enjoyed listening to it. If you did, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening to this. Also, do share this with your friends who would benefit from this episode. You can share your perspective on Twitter and LinkedIn and use the hashtag Workwise with Naukri. Three of the best perspectives will get a special prize from us. So you go ahead and share your perspective on your social media. Thanks again for listening to this episode and we'll see you next week. I'm Meher Sindhu Batra and you were listening to Workwise with Naukri, a career podcast from Naukri.com produced by Wine Studio.