WW EP05 - Mehar x Kalpana

Focus on DDLJ: Do your research, Develop your personal brand, Let your recruiter get jealous of you, Join the best culture. Study the organization, their culture, values, and the profile they're looking for before an interview. Understand the salary benchmark of the organization. Negotiate confidently and clearly state your desired salary and perks. Research salary ranges on websites like Glassdoor and Naukri. Build a strong network and seek advice from peers in similar roles. Understand your own worth by talking to professionals in your industry. Confidence and preparation are key to successful salary negotiations. So I always say that focus on DDLJ. What does it mean? So D means do your research, the another D stands for develop your personal brand. L means let your recruiter get jealous of you. J means join the best culture. Whenever you are going for an interview, try to study about that organization, their culture, their values, and then the profile they're looking forward for. That will help a candidate to better negotiate with the employers. If you know someone from that organization, try to understand what the salary benchmark that particular organization has. Otherwise, try to do your own research from different tools. The moment you will type on Google, you will get to know 10 sites which will give you exact number. Imagine this, you got a job that you really like and bam, the recruiter asks you to decide your worth, your CTC, and then you're suddenly sweating, going numb and don't say a thing. Also, then the recruiter offers you a figure and then you think this is too low. I think I deserve more. But this is my dream job, yeah? Should I negotiate this offer? But then you bite your lip and stop yourself because the recruiter may have two more candidates in the queue waiting to accept the same offer. Money isn't important. Money isn't everything. It's all about the job, you tell yourself. You don't want a salary to be the reason for you to miss out on an opportunity and get rejected. Sounds familiar? Have you had this predicament? From transitioning dilemmas like quitting or switching your job to the dreaded career breaks. From make or break situations like negotiating CTCs or handling feedback between peers. To people related complexities like having a difficult manager or a toxic work environment. Workwise, we cover it all. Hi, welcome to Workwise with Naukri, a show to help you work better and accelerate your career. I'm Deva Gupta. I'm Neha Sindhu Batra. I'm Deepak Pari. We'll be your podcast host, helping you better tackle those work woes. I'm sure many of you listening right now can resonate with this. We have either never negotiated our salaries or if we have thought of it, we don't know how to and fear most often than not that holds us back. Well, let's figure out in this episode of Workwise with Naukri, is CTC negotiation with a recruiter a losing battle or is there a way to get your way? To answer all our questions today, we have Kalpana Sajdev joining us. Kalpana is the founder and CEO of Top Talent Management Services, an HR consulting company. Prior to this, she was heading HR for Asia at a Finnish company and in her tenure, she has worked in all areas of HR, including recruitment. In fact, she was also on the advisory and leadership board in her previous days. Kalpana, I'm so excited to have you as a guest on our show and talk to you today because you have so much experience of recruiting professionals and you will be able to tell us and share tips with us, those of us who fear negotiating our salary with the recruiter. So I'd love to learn from you Kalpana, is actually CTC negotiation with a recruiter a losing battle or is there a way to get your way? Thank you so much, Mehul. So let me not give you a straightforward answer because there is not a straightforward answer, yes or no. It totally depends on the situation and the candidates and the company and so many things to name about. So first, what I could suggest is the candidate must have the confidence to negotiate with the recruiter. So every recruiter has a budget in their mind, X amount, X plus amount. So now for a candidate, that's a tip. They must ask, first of all, to the recruiter that how much is the budget for this particular position? Let me tell you, I eat, breathe and sleep recruiting candidates or interviewing candidates. So I know they will never ever tell you the exact number, but there is a tip. How can you actually get to know the nerve? So you can ask them the maximum budget. There are employers who are ready to pay whatever you want. However, you are able to sell your personal brand. So you need to create that brand. Whenever you are going for an interview, try to study about that organization, their culture, their values and then the profile they're looking forward for. So in each and every conversation of the negotiation, try to put that point forward, what kind of value you can bring on the table that will help a candidate to better negotiate with the employer because they would always try to control F, the keywords of which they're looking forward for in a candidate. If they're impressed, then I have seen many of the employers, they go even out of the budget. They will say that we are ready to take this candidate at any cost. So it's not at all a losing battle if you have full confidence in your potential. So that's what I would say. And then you are using different tactics, which is like you're preparing yourself about the organization, researching about them, researching about the salary packages also, like how much they're paying right now, how much maximum the market can offer. So you must be able to negotiate it better than if you have all the arms and ammunition in your pocket. Wonderful. Thank you Kalpana. I think that's very much relevant. I think you said it's all about confidence. But also I feel there are a lot of people and I was one of them myself, is that we don't have the confidence to talk about our abilities and we don't remember our values, our abilities in that moment, sitting across from the recruiter because we are nervous. So many of us either don't bring up that conversation. So we avoid the topic of salary or we just accept what is offered to us. So how do we in that moment, you know, sitting across from the recruiter, how do we make sure that we're not punching below our waist? I think that is the biggest mistake a candidate does, like devaluing herself or himself. I think the candidate or we ourselves should be clear that what exactly we want. If we are looking forward for a better salary, then we must have the figure in our mind that this is what I'm looking forward for. Then you need to develop that confidence that you're worth, you're capable of getting this much. So that confidence building comes within you only. Nobody can guide you. You need to develop yourself. If you've made up your mind that you need to change your job, then you need to develop your confidence about the salary, first of all. Second, whether you're worth or you're feeling underconfident while talking to the recruiters, I would say that try to have this personal rapport with the recruiter. Try to speak to them personally. Tell them that how much is the package or maybe a friendly note. Ask her about the culture, like how is the company culture. And I know when I was recruiting for one of the multinationals, candidates used to ask me, they were very underconfident. I thought that he will not do negotiation. Whatever we offer, they will accept. No, I was rather underestimating their potential. So the tricks they used was, Kalpana, can you please let us know that how's the culture and when you worked with that organization earlier, how many candidates you have placed, but how many, what's the tenure of each and every candidate. So they were trying to get the information and they were trying to build up the confidence and the value also, which they would be able to bring on the table. So that's how they developed their confidence, Meher. And then slowly and gradually they were trying to understand the company's values, culture, and then try to correlate with their values also. They started finding their own values. Like why actually I want this offer. First of all, that question should come in your mind. Then I think you have all the answers that yes, this is what I'm looking forward for, the X amount I'm looking forward for. And if I'm underconfident today, if suppose I want to change in this dynamic market right now, so then there must be an exact figure in my mind that this is what my present salary is. And if I go to the next employer, I would look forward for minimum this much of a CTC. So recruiter also appreciates straightforward approach. If you're saying in the first conversation that I need X amount and I need these many perks. So you're saying four points quite categorically. One, salary, what you're expecting. Second, the perks and benefit which you're looking forward for. Third, again, nowadays, candidates are even asking like, would they be offering a hybrid culture work from home or do I need to go all five days or six days to the office? So then also you must try to negotiate or discuss with them, do they have the possibility? And fourth and the foremost point is travel. Like how much is the travel the company would sponsor or do we need to travel or not? So all these points should be crystal clear. I think once you will jot down all these points on a blank piece of paper and then you will start talking to the recruiter, believe me, you will develop that confidence and then you will be able to negotiate better with any recruiter for any kind of job. And then the recruiter would also be interested that this person is asking so many questions, which means that he or she is quite serious about this opportunity. And in that moment, Kalpana, you're saying do your research and then come with a number. What is in my mind? I have a lower number than what the recruiter was thinking. What do we do in that? So then, first of all, if you have a lower number in your mind, do not share. The first and foremost step is always be the first to ask from the recruiter that what's the budget. And then now you know that it's their budget if they are able to disclose. If they're not disclosing, then definitely you might have to re-figure. Like if you've already said that, yeah, this is the number which I'm looking forward for the lower number, then the moment negotiation comes, you must say with that number all those perks. So now I'm giving you the tip that how to correct it even. If you've already said a lower number, then try to think, try to say about other perks. Like I mentioned, you must ask about performance bonus, how much is the maximum performance bonus one can get, stock options, and then free meals, vouchers, and then even to and fro, mobile, internet, all those things. And even for work from home, they are even paying for your internet charges, chair, what not. So try to add those layers also if you've already uttered a number. If you've not uttered a number, my first and foremost tip would be try to research about the salary for that particular job profile. Then you will get a better idea that how much a candidate can get for this particular job profile. Yeah, those are great tips, Kalpana. Thank you. I wish I met you like 10 years ago when I was starting my career. Another question that comes to my mind is that, you know, in our heads, we don't want to compromise or accommodate because of the kind of strategy that may not lead to any salary gains, for example. I think one of the problems that a lot of jobbers face is that they don't want to be shortchanged, but they also don't want to lose out on the offer since there may be other candidates that may be in consideration. So what does one do in that case? I think make your employer jealous of you. Oh, wow. That's the statement I would say. Why? Because recently, again, another example, I was recruiting one person for a very niche role that was like kind of a subject matter expert. I was looking forward for one of my clients. And that particular candidate did one thing quite beautifully. He kept saying that I can bring this much value on the table if you hire me. Secondly, he did mention that I have two offers already in my hand. So he kept saying that. So earlier, we used to feel unethical while saying that. But nowadays, people are quite open and then they will negotiate. So which means they are trying to make you jealous and they're trying to make you feel entrusted in them more. And secondly, definitely the culture part, which I mentioned that if one can research about the culture, then definitely they can put that how they can very well fit into that culture. And again, when you create an aura about your candidature in front of the recruiter, then recruiter would also be much more entrusted in hiring you rather than any other candidate. They will give you extra points for sure. And then evolve yourself in that interview process and be the first one to say that number. See, I need this one. So I recently closed another position wherein a candidate was very particular that Kalpana, in first go she said, Kalpana, I need this much of a CTC. Otherwise, I'm not interested in this position. So she is not bothered about other perks. The salary number was pretty clear in her mind. And the other myths which I have heard, it might be true earlier, but nowadays it's not a truth which I face personally, that females are not a very good negotiators or hardly 9% or 7% of females negotiate with their potential employers. But let me give another perspective. Recently I recruited two females in one of the multinational again, and both of them were quite adamant about the number which they thought in their mind that they need this much of the salary, or they need these many benefits, be it hybrid, be it work from home. So they were very particular about the negotiation process as well. Third, recruiters should be tempted to hire you. Fourth, you must evolve yourself in that interview process. It should not be a 5-10 minutes kind of an interaction with the recruiter. But over the process, like if there are two rounds, three rounds, four rounds, try to get involved in the entire process itself. That itself would show that you are very much interested. Fifth, be very, very open about the number which you're looking forward for. So the moment you say the exact number, recruiter would also try to adjust with that. However, then do not share all three, four, five numbers straight forward. Like minimum is X amount, maximum is X amount, and recruiter would always go with the minimum amount. So you must be able to give an exact number and then the other perks also. That will definitely give a better clarity to the recruiter also. But don't underestimate yourself and quote a lower number ever. Then definitely you've lost the battle already without even fighting. Wow, Kalpana, those are some fantastic tips. And I think you said like the two females that you were working with, they were very adamant and they were very clear on what kind of a number they had in mind. But I also think like you said, there are many other perks which are included in the overall package like stock options, paid leave, work-life balance, you know, hybrid way of working and all that you said. But sometimes it feels like I may not have all the information and I can't read the recruiter's mind. So we don't know what the recruiter is thinking and how much would they be willing to offer. Like you said, you know, recruiter may have a minimum and a maximum. We don't know that. So is there some way to actually know that? Like you said, you know, do research and find out, etc. How do we actually get to know what the recruiter may be thinking? So you can go to Glazow, you can go to Facescale, you can go to even noble.com. The job profiles, when they mentioned at most of the job profiles, they do mention about the salary range, like this is the minimum, this is the maximum salary range. But there are websites and then most importantly, if you know someone from that organization, try to understand like what the salary benchmark that particular organization has. Otherwise, try to do your own research from different tools. The moment you will type on Google, you will get to know 10 sites which will give you exact number. Even nowadays, most of the organizations have started putting the salary on their website also for a number of positions or for X profile. I think that's again a better tool. So if somebody is really interested to know that how much is the maximum or minimum salary for my experience or my job profile, they can do a proper research on the website, be it Glazow, be it Facescale, be it Naukri, be it any, for that matter, be it even the company's website itself. People are really looking forward for getting to know about even company's feedback about culture, about people, how do they rate the organizations, wherever they work. So Ambitionbox is one of the websites wherein they can see the rating of the employers also, that is it a good organization to work with, how much is the rating, like is it 3, 4, 5, whatever, or even the salary also. So that's again a very good tool which people can utilize to their maximum extent while negotiating also. That's a fantastic tip, very good insight you're giving us, a secret tip like from a recruiter's perspective. So thank you. I hope all our listeners actually pay attention to that beautiful tip. Another thing I wanted to actually mention and now talk to you about, you spoke about that at the beginning of our conversation, is about confidence and capabilities, etc. And we've heard this quote is that we get what we seek, but many times Kalpana, we don't know what we are from within, like our capabilities, we don't realize our value, our worth, and we may be capable, but we're not able to maybe showcase that, our expertise, our capabilities. So how do we actually know our worth? Like how do I know, okay, I have five years of experience, or I have done these amazing projects in my exposition. How do I confidently in that conversation with a recruiter ask for a CTC that matches my capabilities, my experience and what I'm bringing to the table? The other tip which I try to experiment in my life is try to have more and more friends in your network, the peer group, not only within your organization, but outside your organizations also. They will help you, they will guide you, like how to negotiate further, how to basically look forward for an opportunity. Do you really feel that you can get this much? So let me give an example. I think when I started my career, I was quite clueless, like any other fresher. So whatever the industry was offering me, I was like, yeah, fine, at least I'm getting an opportunity. But at that time, we were not aware about many websites, about research part also, that do we really need to research? But now we have the tools already. And even recently, when I was talking to one of my HR colleague or friend, ex-colleague and friend, she mentioned that, see, I really don't know whether I'm capable of getting this much or not. So all those questions or doubts, whatever you're saying, she also had in that mind. So then she spoke to me and a couple of more HR professionals and tried to understand their point of view about, suppose, 10 years of experience in HR or 10 years of experience in sales or marketing, how much a person should earn in this particular industry, in this particular job profile. So if I'm in HR, I try to have the network of CHROs wherein I'm trying to get the internal information, trying to get the realistic data, not like on website I'm going through. So definitely one would try to do their own homework. If you're seeking a number of amounts, try to speak to your peer group, your people who are in the same network, same profile, same industry for that matter. So try to speak to them. They will definitely add value to your confidence. They would add value to your perspective. Now you have the entire picture in your mind. You've done your research on the portal part itself. You have done the research sitting with your peer group. You've done the research within your network itself, in the industry also. That was really insightful Kalpana. And before we end this episode, is there any other final mantra or tip or advice you'd like to give to our listeners? Sure, Mehr. That's my personal mantra. I don't know whether you've seen this movie DDLJ. Of course, my favorite movie. Oh great, that's mine too. So what I say whenever I sit in any of the college campuses and discussing with students or professionals in any of the surveys whenever I've been asked, so I always say that focus on DDLJ. What does it mean? So D means do your research well whenever you're going for any kind of interview or if you're looking forward for a job change. Develop your personal brand. Another D stands for develop your personal brand. L means let your recruiter get jealous of you, which means create that kind of an aura wherein they're eager to hire you in their organization. J means join the best culture. Do not run after money. Do not run after perks. Try to do a better research and join a company wherein the internal information about the culture you can get better and then you feel yes, this is the company. Wonderful, that was so fantastic and yeah, you're right, like culture, then you will grow in that organization. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Workwise with Naukri. I hope you enjoyed listening to this. If you did, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening to this. Also, do share this with your friends who would benefit from this episode. Have you ever negotiated your salary? Is there anything else that we can all learn from? You can share your perspective on Twitter and LinkedIn and use the hashtag Workwise with Naukri. Three of the best perspectives will get a special surprise from us. So go ahead and share your perspective on your social media. Thanks again for listening to this episode. I'm Neha Sindhu Batra and you were listening to Workwise with Naukri, a career podcast from Naukri.com produced by Vine Studios.