getting started on guitar_1

The transcription is a conversation between two individuals discussing how to get started on playing the guitar. They talk about the importance of learning basic skills such as tuning the guitar and changing strings. They also emphasize the importance of learning the basics before trying to play more complex songs or techniques. They mention the difference between sheet music and tablature, with sheet music being more beneficial for learning the notes and tablature being more of a quick reference. They also touch on the difficulty of playing the guitar due to its various chord shapes and inversions. They encourage learning different voicings and experimenting with different ways to play chords. Overall, they stress the need to learn the fundamentals and take the time to practice and develop skills before moving on to more advanced techniques. All right, so we're doing what subject again? We're going to do the how to get started on a guitar maybe we I think maybe we should do this too is you know kind of talk about how we got started on guitar as well as part of that but let's let's start with the intro which we should have down pretty well by now and remember you introduce yourself yeah just myself I say music Institute and you say putting theory into practice putting practice in the theory right yeah put in practice in the theory theorizing my practice we're doctors here well we'll say this from the outtakes obviously because Jim is unprofessional damn straight both of us are I've been unprofessional my whole life why change now exactly you can't all right hey this is less and this is Jim and you're listening to music Institute putting practice hey I didn't fuck up this time no you didn't you did hey this is less and this is Jim and you're listening to music Institute putting theory into practice podcast today's subject is how to get started on guitar right and both of us have been playing for well a long time I was trying to figure out when I actually started on guitar I know I picked up an acoustic guitar back in junior high which would have been probably I hate to say it probably 1977 or 1978 but I just sort of carried a guitar around and thumped at it and pretended I knew what I was doing I think my dad showed me a couple of you know easy chords on the banjo which he had a four string tenor banjo actually awesome instrument my nephew still has it's a 1934 Gibson and it was the tenor banjo but it was actually the upgraded one with a really beautiful star emblem on the back but I started really playing in 84 when I bought my first electric and then unless you've been playing a long time too yeah I've been playing since about 2001 but I as a child I dabbled with guitar and drums and different things but I really started my journey in 2001 and been playing ever since and play multiple instruments as well so but guitar is my first love yeah yeah honestly in the end it was I played trumpet in you know junior high and but really I would say that you know guitars one of those rewarding instruments there is out there but it's also it can be one of the most difficult to get to really get going on because that those first few months you've got to overcome some big hurdles before you can really get that reward and it turns a lot of people off I think yeah I would agree with that for me I think when you get started on guitar there are some basic things that you need to know how to do and you should know and if you don't just in my opinion I don't think you should be playing guitar if you can't do some very basic things which to me you need to know how to tune your guitar you need to know how to change strings on your guitar if you can't learn those things within the first month you're really going to struggle because I know people that have played for supposedly over 10 years and cannot change strings on their guitar and I think that is unacceptable honestly I think the very first thing you should be learning on the guitar is how to tune it because that actually ties right into learning what the what the open notes are on the guitar anyway yes absolutely I would agree so for me the rule is when I when I teach people how to play guitar I start with you know helping them tune their guitar teaching them all of the open strings and then going string by string and teaching them the notes and in that I teach them the chromatic scale and the major scale because I think it's something that you know is a good reference at least for them to know so they can memorize the order of the notes and it'll just make it easier as time goes on to where they're like what's after C I think there look oh it's C sharp so then you just kind of know where where things are so once you're learning that that that stuff becomes you know muscle memory so you know it'll be easier to just like you can just recall it instantly so then after you kind of learn that then start learning some chords yeah I agree completely and that's a great approach because one of the things what we're saying is you learn the open strings obviously in one of the big things today there's a lot different than when probably even when you started that today you know we have digital tuners and I heard a comment from well kind of a friend of a friend we used to have a group when I was back in Dallas we would get together every Thursday night and play poker tell lies and play guitars you know you know that kind of stuff and one of the things is this guy said I mean you know he's he'd been playing guitar probably eight or ten years and not bad but a really good singer actually but he'd been going oh you know you know you know professionals well you know professionals don't use you know use tuners you know you know sort of like a piano and you know you just kind of tune up whatever and I was thinking to myself like you've never been in a recording studio because the first thing you learn when you're recording is you tune the guitar it's a one thing you can control is tuning the guitar but digital tuners actually make it easier I do think it's important at some point to learn you need to be able to learn how to tune the guitar to itself as well though and and that's something that I think and then this advent today with the digital tuners I think something a lot of beginning players miss is oh I've got a digital tuner I'll just tune the guitar that's great the guitars in tune that's the most important thing when you're playing but they don't think they learn that relationship of how to tune the guitar to itself and what's the battery goes that you tune or if you're just camping or whatever you forgot to bring the tuner you want to play you know if you tune the guitar to itself you could at least play you won't be pitch correct but you'll be relative pitch correct and you can still play effectively yeah I agree learning how to tune the guitar to itself or just you know like learning how to use your ear like using your tuner getting the string in tune and then listening to that note playing that note over and over and over and over and hearing what it sounds like and trying to tune it by ear will go a very long way and will help you in the end because I can actually tune a guitar almost perfect by ear with no tuner and not even tuning the guitar to itself like someone can give hand me a guitar that's completely out of tune and I just I know what the notes sound like so I can find the E and then I can tune the rest of the guitar and that's something that took me a you know probably ten years but I started with a tuner and that's how I got good at it because I practiced it with a tuner and then just played that open note and just you know it was trial and error until I was able to do it yeah it's funny because when I started you know I you know by 84 there were you know digital tuners available and I got one pretty quickly when I got my first electric but I started the first device I had a tune with was a pitch pipe and boy that really teaches you what the note sounds like you know because you really have to use your ear I always learned to tune the a string first and there's actually a specific reason doesn't help anybody today but one of the interesting things about the dial tone that used to be on all telephones there's two tones in there and I for life we don't remember what the second tone was but the first tone is I think it was it may have been 435 first was either 435 or 440 Hertz a is one of the two notes so literally if you didn't have a tuner you could pick up the phone the phone listen to the dial tone and it would at least get you pretty close kind of a funny thing because you know obviously doesn't work now but I also think that's probably why if you listen to a lot of the older recordings that the guitars are all perfectly in tune but that pitches down a little bit and it's not like a half-step it's all either down just a little bit and I'm betting that's because they didn't have anything to tune by and they all and they tuned up by listening to that dial tone yeah and another thing that they that they used to do is you know there's a lot of people that are beginning probably will think this is you know crazy but there's 440 you can tune to a 440 you can also tune to you know 432 you know and a bunch of other things and it's not that it is you know like to E flat you're not going from E to E flat you're just going a little flat in E and every string is tuned that way and that was a big thing that they used to do back in the day because they thought it sounded a little better and a little sweeter and the high notes weren't as harsh you know when they were just slightly flattened like that so it was a really popular tuning to do and people would play like that and it would be on albums so when you would go to tune your guitar and you're tuning it to a 440 it sounds slightly off and you're like oh I'm out of tune it might not be you it could be you know whatever record you're listening to yeah I know they did that on a lot of they still do that a lot of European orchestras still tune that way to 432 that's actually really common I just I just used the old Google monster here so the US dial tone was a combination of 350 and 440 Hertz at minus 13 dBm which at some point when we do our podcast on recording we'll talk about some of what some of those numbers mean but so literally you could back in the day tune your guitar to the dial tone but that's one of the things too I also learned a trick and you probably know this one too Les is that tuning the guitar to itself you know once you have either the E string or the A string tuned it doesn't really matter which one you start with as long as you know what that note sounds like and can get it dial in but when you get to the B string obviously that's not a perfect fourth you know it's four frets instead of five frets well I actually learned to use the harmonic off the low E string to tune that string and then you use the harmonic off the A string the fifth fret harmonic off the A string to tune the high E string and you know it it works great I mean it's faster you're not sitting there you know having to make that fret adjustment also if you've got a guitar that has some some you know minor intonation issues it sort of avoids those you get your open strings tuned correctly anyway correct in I tuned several different ways there are many different ways that I tuned depending on on the guitar how that guitar likes to be tuned maybe if I am wanting it to be you know a lot more precise of a tuning you know so all of those different things will determine where on the fingerboard that I choose the note to tune to so you know most common you start at the fifth fret and you just go down but once you get to that beat you have to go you know do the fourth fret to the to the fourth fret and then it's back up to the fifth to tune that high E so you know that's that's pretty a really common tuning method but in another video we can cover different methods of tuning and like how they work and yeah which one you might like we do a video of this because that way you can see how it's done and it'll be a lot clearer that way but yeah that you know mean that that's that really critical and I will say it amazes me that there are people that have been playing I mean I could see if you started playing it might be six months before you got to the point where you learn to change your strings you know because if you don't break one a beginner you know changing strings a lot doesn't do a whole lot of good for the beginner until they have the basic chops but at some point I totally agree if you can't change your own strings you should you know I mean it's one thing if you're you know a seven-year-old learning to play you might need some help with that I totally understand that but if you're an adult or even you know nine or ten years old if you can't change the strings you're missing an important part of how the guitar works and without that information without that that basic skill you know you're gonna you're in for frustration at some point at some point what's gonna happen is you're gonna break a string there isn't gonna be anybody else around if you don't know how to change your strings you're sunk yeah I agree I mean I think it is an essential part of playing guitar or doing anything in life really like some things you just have to know how to do them and if you don't you're you know up the creek without a paddle so you know you just have to learn how to do certain things and you know kind of moving on once you kind of get past that and you're learning chords everyone wants to learn and sheet music and all of these things and they're not learning the basics they're trying to skip to where well I heard Eric Clapton shred and I want it to play like that or I heard you know Jeff Beck or Yngwie Malmsteen or whoever and people were like I want to play like that and they're skipping many crucial steps to becoming you know a an actual guitar player of someone who knows what they're playing and why they're playing it and you're just skipping over that and I think that is a travesty because a lot of teachers that get students they start them out with tabs and you know they're teaching them licks and riffs and they're not teaching them the foundation of what they need to become a great guitar player. No I agree I do think that you know sheet music is one thing because in order to read sheet music you have to cover a lot of the theory part of it or at least the basic theory part of it and I you know I think a good you know teacher you can combine teaching those basics the chords well there's a chord and there's a little chord chart but if you see it on the sheet music you can see what those notes are I mean if you go that route you can learn it that way but I totally agree with you on tablature. Tablature is was really created as a way for guitarists to quickly communicate with each other and I'm not sure who actually created it but it was a very simple way that let's say you and I are working on a song less and we're not trying to learn how to play here we're just working on a song and I come up with a riff well I put it in tablature you can look at that tablature to go oh I see what you're doing it's a reference it's a quick reference guide it's not it's not a way to learn how to play and to that point what I have noticed about most tabs if I would say probably probably 75% of the tabs that you would download on the internet or out there are not how the artist played the song anyway they might they might even be correct note for the notes may be correct and this is something that I'm sure you'll want to talk about too about you know chords and inversions when we get to that but you know just because the notes are correct doesn't mean that's how you know it was played originally or for that matter how you might want to play it if you're Stevie Ray Vaughan and you have super large hands and long fingers or a John Mayer who also has huge hands you might be reaching six or seven frets because you can and that might be the easier way for you to play it but us mere mortals would probably move to the next string so if you're looking at a tablature well he played it exactly like this that actually doesn't matter that's a really bad way to learn to your point at least with sheet music it gives you the note it doesn't tell you where to play it and that makes you think where should I play this and you can listen to the sound of it on the different strings you can figure out if you want to play just like Eric left you can by using your ears probably figure out where he really played it if you want to do that but tab eliminates that it says you play this here this is the only way to do it is the message it sends and that's wrong that's not how a guitar works that's not how music works yeah and that's not how you know I like to play you know just a quick side note I play everything by ear I have never used tabs I have never used you know like chord charts and sheet music I've never taken a guitar lesson from anyone I've never done any of that I play everything by ear and when it's time for me to learn like a lick or something because I played in church for 10 years and when it was time for me to learn the same part as the other guitar player he would say oh well I am playing at the seventh fret and I'm going from 7 to 10 and I would say well I don't care about that tell me the notes and I'll play them where I want to play them so that's how I you know approached it back then I'm just like I don't care where you're playing it I just want to play it where I want to play it and you just hammered in on what the real point of this is is that you want to know what the notes are absolutely and that's why I'm not and I'm not negative on sheet music because what sheet music does it doesn't tell you where to play it it just tells you what the note is and that's the big thing you know I started playing you know trumpet and cornet in junior high so I learned to read sheet music and I picked up bass tab later on and but that's the whole thing with sheet music is as far as piano it tells you where to play it well but that's because the piano is a linear layout you can only play a piano one way if you know if you're playing a you know a c5 which is basically a C in the fifth octave it's only one place on a piano and that's one of the things I did want to mention about when you're playing guitar getting started guitar guitar is harder to learn because of that that's right if you play on a piano you know play a c5 well it's right there you just press it on a guitar any given note there might be six or seven places to play it and that's part of what makes guitar hard to learn yeah absolutely you know there are so many different chords and you know like just just major chords people don't realize how many different ways there are to play the same major chord all over the guitar and and you can play it in different inversions and what an inversion is if you have a G major chord the notes are G B and D when you invert that you're just starting on a different note so you would play B D G that would be first inversion and if you're playing second inversion you would play D G and B so you can play those all over the neck on different string sets so I mean you have you know so many possibilities I worked it out at one time I forget like what all possibilities there are but it's it is in the hundreds absolutely play all of these chords plus you have bar chords that you can move all over you you know there are many different types of bar chords where you can play these major chords and minor chords and all of this stuff so yeah it can be a little daunting and you can be like well I don't know how to play this chord what you actually might know how to play that chord you just don't know how to play the voicing or whatever they're playing but you can find a way to play that chord it just might be you know really simple where you just hold down three notes at once with one finger across three strings and lay it down and that's it and that's great you can do that too because a lot of professionals play like that yeah and and you just kind of alluded to something that's actually important in the in the learning process typically the first chords that a guitar player learns or what we call the open chords and that's because you're pressing a few strings down but there's some open strings and because the way guitars tune there's a whole you can play a lot of chords without you know playing all the strings but I think it's really important when you first learn to play the guitar that you learn to you know finger just a couple of notes but and this is a big one and something I think is usually missed even in by some very good teachers is what one of the first things you need to learn when you're playing chords especially is how to control all the strings you don't want to play there are six strings on the guitar if you're playing a good example C chord is one of the easiest chords to play there's three fingers but your fingers are spaced out in a pretty natural spacing it's an easy chord to play there are two open notes in the chord but you don't play the low E well this is right when you need to start learning how to use your right hand because people will say oh you know you use that your ring finger to deadnet string or you hook your thumb over the top which once you learn how to play you can use your thumb over the top if you want to when you're starting don't do that it's bad technique and and I say bad technique you need to learn to get your hand in the right position to play correctly once you learn to play correctly then you then you can start taking advantage of the exceptions to that because for every rule there's an exception and one of the great things about music is in the end it isn't about a particular scale or particular chord progression it's you know you're making music and if it sounds good to you and it sounds good to other people then it's fine but you need to learn to play correct but that right hand technique is the thing I see having been and to be fair I'm an intermediate player I'll be an intermediate player in another 20 years I've probably peaked out but I will tell you that that's the biggest thing I see when I see other players play even guys that I work with that play phenomenally well they do not know how to mute the strings and especially like an acoustic guitar playing bar chords and open chords there's terrible ring of open notes and wrong notes because they don't know how to use that right hand to what we call the technical term is palm mute we used to just call it muffling the strings they don't know how to palm mute and they're terrible at it and you know I and you probably heard them and you've seen them on YouTube these guys that they've got a backing track going and they're just shredding a million miles a minute and they're so phenomenal or whatever but when you press them to play an actual song or to play just something simple on the acoustic guitar you know what's a good song House of the Rising Sun that's actually a classic example of a really good song not horrifically difficult to play I think there's four chords in it and isn't right lessons before it depends on the version there I played versions where there are seven chords in it that's a more advanced version but you generally like four chords in it yeah but but but but they you press them these are guys that can play like a Malmsteen you know play you know playing single line stuff but they literally can't do something as simple as just strumming some chords so the whole process and I think we're really going with all this is that you need a good a good grounding and the very first things you need to learn to less this point is you need to learn how to tune the guitar and then the process of tuning the guitar you need to learn what those open strings are and then from that you can learn you know your first scale which is it's important learn scales because that's how you learn to transition from one string to another and a chromatic scale is typically what you learn first because you need to build up the muscle memory to know where those those four frets are correct because the chromatic scale will actually translate to you know your your strings your open strings and where the notes are laying because you know like you're low even you go to F F sharp G a flat and then when you go to the a string then it's a B flat B C C sharp and then your next open string is D so you know knowing that chromatic scale and knowing those notes will really help you visualize those open strings and and all of that so you know I mean it's a really good thing to have you don't have to learn you know you know a major scale or the minor scale or any of that stuff first I actually I don't recommend it I recommend learning your chromatic scale to get started yeah I I totally agree because I also think it helps train your ear better because you're hearing all the notes and then it allows you to as you're just learning that before you ever learn a major scale one of the most important things to do with any instrument but more so on guitar than anything else is you when you're when you're planning practice time you need some practice time you practice specific skills but you need some time to do what some people call noodling what I just call screwing around or play notes make up your own melodies you'll start to make up melodies and then when you learn the scales you go like wait I know what that is and it makes a connection one of the Dimebag Darrell was the guitar player for Pantera then later Damage Plan most of you out there probably have heard of him one of the things he said or was reputed to have said because one thing I've learned is that people are accredited with saying things that they may never have said but repeatedly he said that how he played guitar was he played all the notes and he just took out the ones that didn't sound right and literally that is the best approach to learning guitar especially if you ever want to play by ear but if you want to play lead guitar if you want to be that shredder guy you have to be able to do that you have to be able to use your ears to leave out the notes that aren't right like a guy that most people revere I think he was a great player there's you know there's a lot of mixed feelings I have about this guy but Eddie Van Halen is a guy that did that a lot he would push the boundaries of what you would hear in popular music and rock music because he wouldn't just stick to a pentatonic scale or a simple major or minor scale but he didn't necessarily go the jazz route of one paying you know a harmonic minor specifically he would add or leave out a note here and there to get a sound to get a feel and the truth is that's what made him a great player was his innovation on the instrument playing things that you didn't hear in that kind of music it's skill wise he wasn't necessarily the best player I can name a dozen guys that could play circles around him as far as technically but it's really important to have that that grounding where you know what all the notes are and that's one of the things that the way I learned was some self-taught I took a few lessons here there but the early lessons I took was like here's how to play this song here's how to play that song terrible way to learn the guitar if you don't have the ground once you have a grounding having somebody show you oh this is this chord and this chord and you know here you know these are the notes and the lead lines fine but if you start out with here here's how to play this song and all you learn is how to play that song you really haven't learned much it's one of the things it's I think I guess we'll call it rock band playing in a way because all you're doing is you've learned how to do this specific thing but there's no there's no connection with how to play another song you know just because you can play back in black from AC DC if you haven't learned the basics you can't play any other songs well I will tell you if you can pay play back and black from AC DC you actually have all the chords you need to play most of their catalog yeah I would agree and you know learning you know those chords and and all of that you know something that will really help you it's just something that you need to do and you don't have to know a thousand different courts you can know just a few basic chords and you can play so much music yeah absolutely absolutely if if you know the just really the basic major and minor chords you can play pretty much any song there is what happens is music gets more sophisticated and the better music will have more to it you'll have seventh chords you'll start hearing things if you're if you're looking at getting into guitar you may not know what any of this stuff is yet but there's augmented chords suspended chords there's a ton of variations but they all start from the same basic chords absolutely and they all start from that foundation they everything builds off of a major chord or off of a minor chord it's all related to each other but if you don't know the foundation and you don't know what something is called you don't know a chord you don't know whatever and you're just learning from simply guitar and you're just learning that cool lick you have no foundation all you have is this look that you can play but can you put it into context into a song and play it correctly with the song I would say 99.9% of the time no people cannot do that so one of the things I hear and if we haven't mentioned before and I'm sure I have I do work for Sweetwater I work with a ton of different musicians stuff like that we're not sponsored by Sweetwater at all this is a private podcast here but I work with a lot of musicians and one of the most common things I hear from the bands that I work with talking with musicians in these bands when they're trying to audition a guitar player is people come into audition and they'll play these great riffs and this great solo line and they stop and they go you know they can't play a whole song and they can't to your point they can't play it in context one of the you know spinning back a little bit to what we were talking about so I'll cover it again to make sure we cover anything so learn the open strings learn to tune the guitar that is absolutely critical anyone who says you don't need to tune the guitar that's not important they don't know what they're talking about do not listen to them you know any advice they have on a guitar from there after you should just discount because they know nothing turn the channel yeah exactly exactly turn the channel but open chords knowing those tuning the guitar learning the chromatic scales first then at that point Wes would you teach the major scale next or would you teach a couple of chords after learning the chromatic I would teach chords okay that's how I actually do it so you know like you said tuning the guitar you know knowing the open strings learn the chromatic scale then I would teach chords I would teach your you know what they call cowboy chords or open chords so I would start with you know like G major C major D major E minor and a minor and absolutely you can play I'm not kidding you probably 10,000 songs if not more with those I bet it's more than that it's probably way more than that yeah and then yeah that's absolutely right that's absolutely right because you can literally play well especially with what's on the radio today you could probably with those chords you could play virtually anything you hear on the radio that's that actually has a musical structure and I said because there's some pop music that doesn't necessarily follow a traditional tuning you'll get a two-note song and I'm not even knocking it because they're doing something different or if you know if it's a rap song they have a couple of chords to put some music behind it to tie it together it's not necessarily trying to be music that said you're typically not going to play guitar to that you might I mean I don't knock any of those guys because I think that if it's original and people like it then there's nothing wrong with that I think continuing to copy the same non-musical stuff that someone else has done is another story we'll get into that on another podcast the sorry state of pop music is a fun thing you'll see a bunch of podcasts out there from you know all the usual players I don't even want to go there but I totally agree with you on the chords those are the chords I learned first the next chord after the next two chords after that were the tough ones which was the F chord and that's because you have to have to pin down two strings with one finger or or bar it and that's when the bar chords come in and that's a very that's the hardest that's that next step it's very hard for people to learn because it's physical and it takes a lot of practice the other one for me was like you know like the B minor that one was a tough one B minor and B major are hard for people the way I play B major is I learned bar chords I typically will play the B majors of our court because it's way for me way easier to play because I learned to play bar chords and in fact that's something else that I find when I see as I said a lot of these other players that I'm around all the time I see a big weakness is most these guys can't sit there and play bar chords and play a whole strum of guitar and play all bar chords I've got a callus on my left index finger it's funny because I never thought about it but I have I mean you can feel the callus on the edge of my left index finger from playing bar chords and I don't even play as much as other people I know yeah so you know learning you know those chords like he was saying you know and I would teach you different ways to you know chord those chords you know different like different fingers different fingerings for those chords I think is important because the way you play it might be a little different than someone else even though you're playing the same chord so that might be able to help you somewhat with being able to play certain chords you know so then yeah I would teach you that and then once you kind of have those chords underhand and you can play you know G C D E minor A minor and you can switch between them quickly then the next part I move to is rhythm I teach you rhythm how to play rhythm because that is the most under looked skill for a guitar that I've seen with people is they cannot play rhythm and I'll tell you this if you want to be in an actual band or you want to be a professional musician guess what they're all playing rhythm they have to know how to play rhythm sure they can play lead as well but when you're not playing that lead you have to be able to play rhythm to hold that rhythm section down and if you cannot do that you will not be hired for a gig or you will you know people will not want you in their band if you can't play rhythm it is very very essential to becoming a guitar player and it helps you understand how to hear rhythm and and how to play different different feels with with whatever the drummer is doing and the bass is doing and the piano is doing so rhythm is the next thing that I would teach you with those chords and there are so many different strum patterns and sometimes just because a song is you know in 4-4 and they're just playing you know up down up down up down up doesn't mean you have to play that same pattern you can play straight quarters straight eighths you can just play it on one and three you can do so many different things you don't have to play exactly what the song is playing you just have to play a rhythm that is complementary to what is being played yeah exactly and this is where I'm gonna say a word you will hear me say all the time metronome you need to buy and use or download an app because there's apps out there for when you practice use a metronome you have to do if you do not do you do you do not have good time you don't no one naturally has that I should I should rephrase that very few people naturally have that you have to learn to either tap your foot which is the old school way to do it which there are some advantages that you want to do that if you don't have the but when you're starting to play as a beginner you need to use the metronome it's one of the things less was talking about changing chords that is probably the absolute hardest thing to learn on a guitar yes it is open open chords to go to the next chord and to do it where that change doesn't sound sloppy or you know or you don't have muted strings or dead strings or whatever yeah it's it's really difficult but you can do it you just you know that's why he said practice with a metronome yeah it'll make it it'll make it easier like like you know because when it's on the floor you know on that one you have to switch to the next chord and you can kind of mentally prepare yourself and you can be thinking about it and you can try to make it happen and it'll come with time it's not you're just not going to get it like day one and know how to play everything and exactly and all of that it's just it doesn't happen that way yeah and this we've just we've just really highlighted what makes guitar so difficult to learn because we're talking about what we're talking about right now is going to take anywhere from six weeks to six months to get to just what we've talked about so far so some people will advance more if you work at it if you put the time in you can get there much quicker but in the big thing too with a metronome is and I still struggle with this I still I use a metronome when I'm actually practicing and one of the things is that I have a tendency to set that a little bit too fast we all want to play fast we all want to play the song at the speed we heard on the radio sure but you need to slow it down to half that speed or even slower to learn it to start and when you first start playing you know I would suggest if you're when you get to that point where you're doing the chromatic scales you need to use that metronome even then and you set it to 60 beats a minute which is really really slow I would actually go slower than that yeah yeah that's fine I'm saying that I'm just I'm just throwing a number out there that's kind of a minimum you know started to start really slow and so you can literally do that literally learn to make a clear note on the each note very clear and distinct when you're playing the chromatic scales and then what you do is and practice those scales at that speed and practicing the speed and when you feel like you are really playing the scale correctly at a slow speed well move it up five beats a minute and then play at that speed and and not just for a day not just for five minutes do it for you know I think when I started playing trumpet I started with a metronome I would play and I probably started around 60 maybe it was too fast but trumpet is a single line instrument so it's a little bit easier to play in that regard but I you know but I would practice for something for a week at that 60 beats a minute and then I would move it up to whatever the next speed I said but maybe I move up five or ten beats a minute depending on how well I felt I was playing it and then I would practice for another week and if I could play it perfectly let's say I went from 60 to 65 beats a minute if I could still play it perfectly well I would go ahead and move it up another five beats a minute the idea is to get it to run that metronome it just at the pace where you're not quite doing it perfectly so you can practice and get it perfect and don't change that that beat until you are literally you can play it perfect you know when you're sound asleep you can play yeah I would agree some things that I do that I've taught my students in the past is when I'm teaching them the chromatic scale and how to play it I have them start at 30 beats a minute I know it sounds crazy well if you've never picked up a guitar that actually makes sense to me yes and the reason why is you want to create muscle memory correct muscle memory so when you're playing it you start at 30 beats a minute because I think almost everyone can play it at 30 beats a minute and not screw up even as a beginner you know so when you're going through that scale and you're and you're switching strings even you have enough time to be able to hit each note and to think about the next and to move to the next note so once you have that I would practice that you know one full day one full day of just 30 beats a minute playing that chromatic scale over and over and over I mean if you want to play for eight hours practice it for eight hours at 30 beats a minute and then when you if there's something that you have to do later on and you have to play as something that 30 beats a minute guess what you know how to do it because you've practiced it so then I would move up to you know maybe 40 beats a minute and if you're a little bit off and you're not quite you know to 40 and you can't get it move it down by 2 BPM and see if you can nail it and if you can practice it a whole day again you know just practice it throughout the day and just get it perfect you know then move it up you know 5 or 10 BPM until you get to the point to where you don't really have to think about it and eventually you'll be playing at you know 120 beats per minute or 160, 180, 190, 200, 300 but it's all about repetition and just practicing it with the metronome even though it is boring and monotonous it's something that you have to learn how to do and that's what I did when I started out I was I Michael said you need a metronome because if you don't you're never going to have good timing and rhythm and he's like you have to so I played everything with a metronome and now I have great timing but it's because I practiced you know eight hours a day for that first six months to a year and because I practiced that way I went straight into playing in church and within a year I became the lead guitar player yeah yeah it's you know my you know I learned on the horns first and I always use a metronome did good practice techniques one of the things to really watch out for is when I picked up the guitar I didn't use a lot of those things at first you know I just sort of screwed around and it stunted my guitar growth for years I have much better timing now than I did years ago a lot of it is because I do use a metronome now if I want to practice but part of it too is over time you develop something called feel part of the feel is having good rhythm and understanding what the rhythm is but part of it is is being able to when you're playing with a band you've got to follow the band and there is a definite pecking order and I've heard I've actually heard this argued where that gets funny is like the drummer sets the time I would agree well you have to I mean the drummer is all rhythm he has to set the time and you know so that's one of the things if you start playing with other people you follow the drummer but as a guitar player what you're probably listening to more often than the drummer is the bass player and a bass player is the guy who actually has to have the best sense of rhythm in the band yes absolutely has to be able to follow the drummer drummer has to have good time most drummers by the time they get on a kit have good time or they're not going to be no one's gonna want to play in a band with them they're not going to be there the bass player has to control what in jazz is called the pocket and this is important understand in this world today we have digital audio workstation recording programs timing on everything is absolutely perfect everything's locked down that's great that's not really how music is made and it's important distinction because the reason you have to have good rhythm is so you know when to break that rule everything about music and you'll find this in life with almost everything else is this way you've got to learn the rules you got to learn correctly you have to learn to do things the right way and then in any creative endeavor that's when you start bending and breaking the rules to do what you want to do but as a guitar player you tip it you follow that bass player because if the bass player can do what we call pushing the pocket or pulling the pocket what he's doing is he's playing just very slightly ahead of the beat it makes the sound the song sound a little faster a little more aggressive he might lay back you hear that a lot in blues yeah a lot of just right right behind the beat like the drummer hits the bass drum the notes it's there but it's this we're not even talking about 64th note we're talking a 256 note behind it but that feel is what makes music and you notice this all the time in different kinds of music listen to james brown we want to change you want to talk about feel and rhythm and pocket listen to that i mean even though the drummer isn't perfect the bandmates can keep up with that drummer and when that drummer slightly changes his time because he's a human when he changes his time when his time slightly changes or if he decides to change the style of beat he's playing and play a different rhythm the other musicians follow right along with him and you know like jim said they'll either push the pocket they'll pull it they'll be smack dab in the middle of it and that that is music and some insurance might be behind some might be above some might be in the middle it's just it's whatever you think sounds good and whatever serves that song the best right right and but all hinges on in order to do that you have to know what perfect timing is or you can't do that i agree other i mean yeah once in a while somebody may do it accidentally but that's no way to make music but uh i think we're you know really what it boils down to i i think we've kind of laid out the basics here at what point uh once they start once you've taught someone how to play those basic cowboy chords and change them and be able to do it in reasonable times that when you start teaching a few simple songs um you know after i teach them uh rhythm after they learn after they've learned how to change chords i'll teach the rhythm and then i will teach them very basic songs like uh amazing grace you know stuff something very simple but something that you might get asked to play right and this is where i want to bring up to tack on to this is you know if you if you are involved with church as you go to church that is a great place to go how to learn how to play in the band and really expand how to play especially today churches praise bands today don't play just amazing grace and the old hymnals they play much more modern music it's an awesome place to learn how to play that's where i cut my teeth that's where i learned how to play with a band and where to how to fit in with a band and when to play when not to play when to turn the volume up when to turn it down and how to you know just how to fit into a band and that's that's how i learned how to play like i was just thrown into the trenches and they're like here you go my very first solo that the pastor he's like take a solo and i just stood there frozen i didn't know what to do because i had never been asked to play a solo before yeah it was solo you couldn't hear it it was it was it was it was great but the second time he asked me i knew exactly what to do and i had it so you know it's it's a great learning experience or just you know like if your family gets together for for holidays or whatever people might sing amazing grace or you know some of these kids songs that that you can learn to sing and play for your kids absolutely you know i think it's a great thing to learn because it's and they can be fun to play right like campfire songs learn that i love to sit around the campfire and just strum on the acoustic and play some stuff and have people sing that that's really fun yeah but but it is rhythm dependent absolutely and and and you mentioned it and you're totally right that's one of the things i think is missing from a lot of otherwise great players today uh is that you know that that sense of rhythm that being able to strum the guitar um it's one of the things that i think i actually do fairly well you know probably better than a lot of other parts of my playing because i learned the hard way you know but uh you know we've kind of covered how to get started ultimately any journey on the guitar is going to be your own sure but i think we're both in agreement and and anyone who's played for any length of time should should really agree with this is you've got to go through those basics you can't you know the old saying you know walk before you run is absolutely you know true on the guitar you are not going to pick up a guitar the first time and do anything brilliant no you're not even a justin beaver and people may laugh you can say what you want about justin beaver he very much is a natural and a virtuoso he can play any instrument you give him you know give him a little bit of acclimate you know a little bit of time to acclimate to it he can play anything that is an absolute fact if you want go back and watch it in the old on youtube in the old videos when he'd show up on the tonight show or whatever when he first started getting out there um the guy has a ton of natural talent instruments but even he didn't pick up a guitar and just start playing you know he picked a guitar he had to learn some things he also had some parents who gave him a very good grounding in music i think you'll find that he had rhythm he understood you know what notes were and scales were um but you know when you get started you know and the other question i wanted to ask less and i have an opinion but i'm really interested in yours would you suggest starting on electric if that's really your intent is just to play electric or would you start on an acoustic no i would start you on acoustic i agree completely um i think it is more difficult uh yes to play it's more difficult to press the strings down but i think it also prevents you from falling into that oh look i learned this cool lick and why i often end up doing that instead of practice and that's why i have people start on acoustic um you know and there are just the way the acoustic is designed sometimes it keeps you from hitting like other strings and you have to learn really how to press your strings down in the correct way to get them you know to get that sound out of them and i want to touch something that jim said earlier where he said it's you know when you're muting it's all in the right hand i'm not disagreeing with him not all the writing but i think it's important to be able to do a lot of it is for me in the way that i play my muting is mainly in my left hand but that also has came with time and experience yeah you have to be able to do both and you have to be able to use your fingers but my point with the thumb was when you're first learning to play uh you know you need to hold the guitar correctly you need to put the thumb and you don't nail your thumb in the middle of the back of the back of the neck it doesn't necessarily say you're going to move that thumb around as you're reaching for different strings and chords but you need to to learn to play properly and and reach without relying on that thumb sure uh first absolutely you know once you once you play for a little while and i mean literally even a few months if you're if you're starting to get the basics down you can start experimenting with that because many great musicians even classically trained musicians will reach over the top of the left thumb it's just not a technique that i personally think you should use first because it very quickly can become a crutch and i say that because when i first started learning chords learning the g chord i learned to call what i laughingly call the jimmy page g chord because jimmy page led zeppelin he used that thumb over the top a lot because he was the only guitar player in the band he was you know doing low bass strings and playing some lead notes at the same time so for him it was never a crutch it was a tool that he could hit an f sharp or a g and still be playing a lead line on the upper strings but you really don't want to do that until you learn how to play a g chord with your fingers not your thumb true because and if you're learning something like clapton he uses a chord that is a d over f sharp so it's a d major chord with f sharp in the bass and that you have to use your thumb for and if you're going to play it properly your thumb has to hold the f sharp note on the second fret on your low e and you have to mute the a string with it as well yeah and yeah and that and that is and at that point it is a good technique because that's how you play that chord yes exactly and that's actually but that's one of the things i was kind of mentioning is it's very easy to use that thumb hanging over to mute that a string and that's great but if you start doing that when you very first start playing you'll start relying on that instead of other ways to mute those strings or you'll yeah and now we're getting into the minutiae and as a player you'll find your own path you'll find what works for you absolutely you will you know but but it's a fair point is that you know you um there are a lot of chords that there'll be a string in the middle of the of the six strings that you're muting yeah and that string you're going to have to mute with the left hand you're going to have to use a use your fingers you know leaning over to mute those but just in general uh you know changing chords uh with bar chords and a good rhythm on bar chords a lot of times when you're moving bar chords up and down to avoid some of the string noises that can be unpleasant that right hand technique is where you learn to mute with the right hand absolutely absolutely and something off that you know i just want to throw in there is also when you're you know trying to mute strings or not play strings you need to be very cognizant of your picking hand and where you are picking like try to you know if you have to watch yourself strum and if you need to strum from four down try to have good accuracy and have your hand to where you're not starting at the sixth string you're starting at the fourth string and strumming down so just you know if you learn how to you know over over time it becomes a feel thing and you can just you can you know just pick the bottom two strings or you know or the inner strings and you don't even have to think about it but when you're starting out you know just kind of watch where you're picking and that's when a metronome comes in handy and just watch yourself play it you know play from six down then play from five down then four down then three down then two you know and then just do like some inner string sets and just do different things and you know really learn get that right hand to do different things because it'll serve you later on and yeah it'll really help you by by being able to like oh this is you know i have to play five and then i have to play you know three two and one like then you can you know thumb and then strum with you know your other fingers or whatever so there are so many techniques so you know just practice all of those different things and you know it'll really help you even though at first it'll seem like it's really hard and you can't get it just give it time practice with the metronome play it slow absolutely absolutely and and you know and and on that same theme is that i'm what i'm about to say this is not the absolute way to play the guitar but i always recommend when you're starting on the right when you start on those chromatic scales at the very beginning practice using strict alternate picking that means pick the first note down the second note up you're not going to do that when you play music later on but it gives you that muscle memory to have that control to pick up or pick down on any given string and what les was saying exactly right when you're practicing that that basic chromatic scale the open string through the fourth fret practice from the sixth string go through all the strings then go back and practice from the fifth string and go through all those all the way down to the second string and the first string and then when you get that down do the sixth string skip to the fourth string skip back to the fifth string alternate things exactly what less to say i'm just expanding a little bit that your it gives you that muscle memory so that and watch your watch your right hand you you know uh some people use a mirror uh i'm absolutely guitar player mirrors confuse me because everything looks backwards i just lean over and look but um but you know watch what you're doing get that down early on the earlier you get these techniques down these basic techniques the easier it'll be to play and what you'll find is once you have that alternate picking down it's very easy to learn these other patterns where there are times when you specifically want to pick just straight down there's times when you want to do use what they call sweep picking or if you're picking through a chord if you're picking the first three notes of a chord and skipping a string you're going to sweep pick which means you're going to pick down down down up and if you're playing that in between string next you would go back down you do that to make it easier to play there's an economy you learn but you can't learn those things until you learn the basic correct way because then when you go back where you literally have a really fast lead line for example you have to alternate pick it's a speed thing and if you haven't learned to do that as a basic technique at the very beginning you you will struggle to get the speed and i'm speaking from experience on this one yeah it also depends on what you are playing and where it's being played and are you skipping strings because it could be something really fast like a sweep picking kind of a thing where you actually don't have to play you know you know the up pick you can just right just keep strumming down but it's then it's also about left hand technique and muting different strings with the right and left hand so you're not hitting unwanted notes so you know you're adding you're combining several different techniques into one to learn a specific technique and that is something that i teach you later on exactly that that's in that's the intermediate and advanced techniques correct yeah but all i can say is it's just another another piece of the puzzle is you practice that alternate picking technique first that's that's the one i recommend learning first then you learn another technique afterwards after you have it down um and it what you're really doing is you're developing like less than muscle memory but you're basically building up little building blocks of your play and then once you have the these basic things down you're going to begin to combine these things and mix these things and lo and behold once you reach that point and like i say uh if you're a very diligent player if you if you're one of those guys that practices seven eight hours a day you can learn these basic things in a few weeks more realistically an adult player starting figure your three to six months it's going to take you to get down these basic techniques if you really work at if you're playing a you know an hour a day or a couple hours uh on the weekend that that's your time frame how much time you put into it is going to determine how long it takes you to learn it i agree and from what i've seen uh with teaching children and adults it depends on how dedicated you are but the older you are the harder it is to learn and i've seen it take upwards of two years for people to learn just the basic skills of trying to switch chords a little bit of rhythm you know and really nothing beyond that it takes them a year year and a half two years and children you know depending on how dedicated they are how much they want to play do they practice and all of that stuff you know it depends they can get that basic foundation stuff down in you know usually six months to nine months and some of them are way quicker and do it and you know two to three months sometimes it just it just depends on the child how they learn you know it's all about how you learn how much time they put into and how much time you put into it that that's an absolute but the the biggest thing is is that you know unless it's probably something we've been playing for years i don't practice i don't that much now now and and that's to my detriment because by not practicing i'm not improving these techniques because it's a lifelong thing i would agree i do a lot of playing i don't do a lot of practicing but i have a certain basic skill level that is there that's not going to go away because the muscle memory is there the the techniques are there when you're starting out you really can't do that you really have to practice and practice it's just like in any endeavor practice sucks it's not fun sometimes um one of the reasons that kids typically learn so much faster is that everything is new to them and they don't get bored you know uh as quickly but uh and because of the learning resources of because of things like simply guitar and musician yeah and and all of these other things so kids can stay kind of into it more but i also think that they are learning the wrong way that's just my opinion i think they're learning the wrong way because it's just teaching you here's this cool lick here's this other cool lick and you're you're learning riffs to songs you're not learning all of the foundational stuff that we've talked about so i i think in the end they're they're going to be behind even though they seem like they are more advanced but at least they are practicing and learning and having fun and i you know that that's ultimately what it comes down to maybe they don't care if they can ever do you know play rhythm and and play these full songs if they just love to get on simply guitar and learn these licks to a thousand different songs good for them that they've done something that some people can never do that that's true that's so good for them yeah and i think that's probably a good place to wrap this podcast is that you know what we've thrown out here is what we think is the right way to learn if you want to be a professional to be a great musician uh if you just want to play and have fun um you know there's ways to get there a little bit quicker that way but just bear in mind that without the basics you're never going to be a great player um you know that said it's all about where you're trying to go and remember the only goal here is to have fun and make music and i'm actually in complete agreement with les about tabs and some of these other resources out there i think that once you've taken that time whether it be uh you know six months or two years once you've got that down at that point that's when some of these other things aren't a bad thing because once you know how to actually play the instrument have that that muscle memory know the basic things then when you start to use uh you know these youtube how to play the song things at that point then you uh can actually learn the song but you know all the other things and you learn that song like oh wow i learned to play this acdc they use acdc as an example because they're a blues rock band they're not a heavy metal band we'll cover that in another they're a blues rock they use mostly the same chords in all their songs yet they have i don't know 16 17 albums worth of music and the songs are all different and guess what there's only 12 notes in western music so they're not really cheating but once you learn once you have that that good grounding then you learn a song and your ears will tell you hey wait a minute i can play this oh that's these this chord combination this chord progression hey this other song they do this other song this other band does that's really close and then you use your ears then you can figure out a song without using the tab without using the sheet music by using your ears and figuring out your own and that's the payoff for myself and for less too i know that's the payoff when you when you learn something by ear yeah great example i was actually looking um there's a foreigner song really simple song off of their former four album from years back uh called girl on the moon and it's uh it's just a a pick pattern through a b b minor chord um but i was you know i looked at the tab on it and i said oh it's a b minor you know i looked at the pick patterns oh it's just a b minor chord and then i didn't look at the tab after that i used my ears and i was just picking through it and i realized oh okay and picking through just that b minor chord on the pick pattern my ear said oh and then i started playing this scale and filling in the melody line without looking at the tab without looking at the sheet music i could put you know i could put the mp3 or the record i still have vinyl i could put it on and i could play along with just by finding out what the one chord was and that's the thing if you skip to looking at the tabs you'll never have the ability to learn songs by ear yeah i would agree with that um i just want to you know people to know that if you start out and you're and you start with you know tabs and uh simply guitar and musician and all the all those other things i'm not saying you're a bad person or that you don't deserve to play it's just i don't think you should i don't agree with the way they teach with their philosophy i i think the way that that i teach is uh is the best method because you're starting from the beginning think of it like like a baby okay you know babies can't hold their head up until like they're five or six months old you know and then and then they can you know like hold her head up and sit up and move more than they can crawl then then they kind of learn how to stand and then then they learn how to walk and once they get good at walking then they learn how to run then they learn how to ride a bike then they learn how to drive a car you know so you got to think of this guitar journey like you're a baby because it kind of is so just you know i think start with the basics and all of that and once you uh learn those start learning more complicated things so um you know once i'm teaching you rhythms and you're learning all of that and during that process i'm also going to be teaching you theory because i think that's a very important thing that we kind of skipped over is i'll be teaching you music theory along the way so you kind of understand what you are playing so you just don't know what you're playing you know what it is and why it is right and why it fits and that's something if you see these ads on youtube and they pop up all the time skip theory you don't need that those people are idiots and i'm just going to call it out what it is i would agree because every great player they may not have formally learned theory but they have an understanding of theory but if you learn it the way less is talking about teaching if you learn it that way you learn it as you go along it's not this onerous thing you learn like oh i'll go to study theory like you're going to school you're learning a chord progression and you're understanding this is why these chords go together this is why these notes fit together you have to know that and again down the road go back to what dimebag daryl said in the end that's what he always did by using his ears but in the end you can break those rules because you know why the rule is there you know the right way to do it you can say well it'd be cool if i used a flat five here you know uh sure and as you play along you learn what that means but basically you learn the rules and then you can break them you don't start by breaking the rules because if you don't know the rules you can't play the game and there's a specific way to break the rules and especially in jazz music it is very common to have things that aren't of the norm and people are like well that's that's really weird that you know it shouldn't be that way yeah but when they do that they they said okay we want to do this here we we want to specifically break this rule here it's because they understand the rules you can't just make about you know you can't but and some of it is theory related though yeah oh absolutely absolutely because there's been hundreds of years of people making music and these rules and this method exists because there's there's a way that we hear music but anyway the point being is that anyone tells you you know you don't need theory they're not a musician or learn guitar and and one day learn how to play everything oh no no no no uh yeah any of those promises all that stuff that is that that is basically that's garbage it's clickbait it is you know and yeah you nothing good comes of that approach to things in anything i would agree you know and all we're really saying is that when you start out you know put your time in on those basic things you know the more time you put in with proper practice and and probably working on the the better these these you know techniques these skills you need you know like say you could learn it in a month you could learn it in two years it depends on how much time and effort you put in and how you know and there's a talent thing too i will tell you straight up i am not a natural musician by any means but i've been playing for years and you know i think i'm a mediocre player that said like i say when i you know hear other people play a lot of people play better than i do a lot of people don't play better than i do um you know it's i don't play for other people i don't play to be the great you know rock star maybe i had thoughts of that when i first started playing but hey maybe you are going to be that rock star but you want to be a rock star you want to be a guitar god learn these basics if you skip that stuff odds are you're not ever going to be that guitar god i would never say never some people have a natural talent but realistically if you don't put in the work you're going to get nowhere yeah i i agree and i'm i'm one of those people that have a natural talent for music uh you know most of my family are musically inclined in some way you know either instruments or singing so i mean i i can play i i don't know like 16 different instruments and most of them just came naturally to me like i learned how to play guitar you know i learned how to play guitar very quickly but you'd already learned to play drums right no drums actually later drums came way later and i learned how to play fully play piano in like two months like where i i was playing like scales all over the place and you know all the quarter inversions and you know i could play any rhythm and i i could just do anything i was playing jazz in two months like full jazz and people were like that's incredible how did you learn how to do that because i already had the understanding of music from guitar right right you already had the basic grounding on this that's one of the things for me while i was able to pick up the guitar the way i did not in a formal knot and i didn't start with guitar lessons i'd already learned to play the trumpet funny story when i went to college to get my recording degree i was taking guitar and was in we had a guitar ensemble and we're doing jazz and stuff we had to take music classes to go along with the recording classes it just it was part of the music department i mean how you learn how to record instruments you have to have some basic ability to play a little bit to understand how to record them but uh i was trying to get in the jazz band on guitar well there was one slot and about i think there were probably 12 or 13 of us trying to get that spot well everybody was a better guitar player than i was at that point i had only been playing maybe three or four years at that point but the band director for the jazz band found out that i played trumpet in junior high i didn't even play in high school he said hey you know you used to play trumpet yeah well here play this flugelhorn i'm like i don't know how to play the flugelhorn and he put a he handed me the horn sat me down put a piece of sheet music in front of me and this is something if you ever played in in band you know about sight reading drop this piece of music in front of me and say play that and i'm like uh the fingerings are the same as trumpet okay well i played it and because i had that grounding in trumpet and basically the there are three valves fingerings are the same um whatever the key difference is doesn't matter because you just play the sheet music in front of you i played it and boom i was in the jazz band but i had that grounding with the trumpet work i played with a metronome i played my scales i did all the drills i put in you know i i see her back in the day and even when i was a beginner i played i started out half hour a day and as i built up you know my umbrature which on trumpet your mouth on the mouthpiece is a big part of playing so i built it up at one point in eighth grade i was playing two hours a day every day we had a little practice cards we filled out and i learned to play properly so when i moved on to the guitar i was able to pick it up much quicker than i might have otherwise yeah you know um if you're if you're you know parents play or your kids play or you know a friend that plays have them show you some stuff and and being around other musicians will make you a better musician even if you don't realize it so so hang around other musicians because you will learn a ton of stuff from them yeah all right well i think that's got this one wrapped up um we'll have a ton more podcasts for you guys we really appreciate you listening yeah so thank you for listening uh like and subscribe thank you