Q5-20130628-Larry_Rosenberg-IMSRC-retreat_closing-19835

Talk: 2013-06_28 Retreat Closing.json Start_time: 00:56:56 Display_question: Does practice ever become joyful? Keyword_search: joyful, suffering, self-discovery, Buddhist, Buddha, Tibetan, Zen, Theravadin, Robert De Niro movie, retreats, terror, fear, breath awareness, peace, Buddhaharma, self-understanding, refuge, Dharma, sangha, Cambridge, precepts, Narayan, Michael, Zen Question_content: Questioner: This is a funny question. Does practice ever become joyful? Larry: Yes, become joyful. All I can say is, this entire endeavor, I'm not going to call it practice right now, is both very serious and very joyous, at the same time. Now, if you mean joyful that you don't have suffering, that's unrealistic. Now, that means it's serious in that…I'm going to make a serious statement. Self-discovery is urgent. It's not a luxury item. The degree to which we're ignorant of ourselves, the price we pay is exorbitant. You can be illiterate, but know yourself. Then in the Buddhist term, that's good. You can know the entire corpus of the Buddha’s teaching in Tibetan, Zen, Theravadin, but you don't know yourself, it's a waste of time. In other words, you'd probably still be messing people up, without even wanting to. You'll have all these great thoughts. So, have you not experienced any joy in practice? Questioner: Are you talking to me? Larry: What is this, a Robert De Niro movie? Who else am I talking to? You talking to me? I'm sorry to be careful about what I say with you. Okay. I am talking to you. Do you? Questioner: I don't know. Especially on retreat. I've been on several retreats, but mostly all I'm experiencing, is the cracking of the egg, the shell. But as I've said to some of my peers, there's mostly terror, and fear as the shell breaks. But then secondarily, when I come on these retreats, and I know I'm not supposed to look at people Larry, but I do. Sometimes when I'm taken in the surroundings, I'm like, these are some serious people, serious mug. This is it. Like you said, I'm about to be a saint. And so those… I've lost my train of thought, I haven’t spoken lately. Back to your question. You were talking to me, and what I was saying to you is, this practice is profound. I haven't felt joy. Larry: Ever? Questioner: Maybe for 30 seconds. Larry: Yeah. Have you done some breath awareness with some continuity? Questioner: This week? Larry: Have you felt any peace? Questioner: 5 seconds. Larry: Okay, but why are you still coming here? Questioner: I just told you; this work is profound. Larry: Yeah. Questioner: But what I get, I get glimpses of certain truth. The Buddhadharma. You just made a funny comment about the person that read all the books. The Buddhaharma. Yeah, that's me. Larry: Okay. Reading, studying. I study. That has its place. But if it replaces self-understanding, you may find that it's rather limited. But let's get back to your question. I can't give you a sense of joy, but here's what I what I'm… when I say practice is both very serious, and also joyous. At the beginning, and the beginning, for many, it varies from person to person. Unless you've started to really experience how precious it is, how invaluable this is, how essential it is, the self-exploration, this journey into voyage into ourselves, unless you experience it, I can give you a pep talk, but it's not going to be yours. It's just going to be, it's my joy. Break_line: Also, there's a happiness that's a mind state, like happy, unhappy, happy, unhappy. Those things are all going we already know what that is. People are nice to me, I'm happy. People are not nice to me, I'm unhappy. I make a lot of money, I'm happy. I lose stocks, I'm unhappy. So that's up and down. There's something much deeper than that, that the practice takes you to. And I wouldn't even call it happiness, that's why… but once we get stuck in language, we have a problem, but I have to use it to get to your… Break_line: Finally, I think what the Buddha is talking about is deep peace, inner peace. It's not the happiness of ecstasy. That happens. It comes, and it goes. When it comes, enjoy it. But there's something else, and I don't know if there is, I don't have an adequate language for it. But it's not like every time I meditate, I'm looking at how wonderful I am, or sometimes what I see is a limitation. But I'll tell you, there was a turning of a corner, where at a certain point I realized, even in looking at my suffering, it was so obvious, that this was the best thing I could do for myself. It's not because the book said so, or some teacher said so. I knew that this is the best thing I can do, because what are the other things? Avoid it, deny it, drown in it? No, become aware of it. And there's a certain kind of, in other words, another inadequate word, fulfillment that comes from using your life, in a way that seems useful. Good. Here’s…I'll give you a parallel because I don't think my answer is going to be satisfying. Questioner: You’re doing pretty good. Larry: Surprise to me. Oh, I feel good now. Maybe we ought to end the discussion. People come, and take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and the Sangha, and often we have beginners who come to Cambridge Insight Meditation. They're just starting. I feel it's idiotic. In other words, I make it clear that how can you take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, Sangha? They're just words to you. They don't mean anything. So, I don't make it feel it's a should. Unless you take refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, you can't do this retreat. What are we talking about? It seems unreal. So that at a certain point through practice, the day comes where you know what it means from… you dig it out of your own experience. It's yours whether you use that language or not. Then to take refuge in the Buddha, because they're formal times when you take refuge in the Buddha dharma… Are you aware of that? I tell people, don't take the refuges and the precepts, until you really feel it sincere. Don't take it just to fit into the crowd. Oh, did you take your refuges and precepts? I did, yeah. Good. I'm taking mine… to who's giving them? I think Narayan's giving them. I think Michael. Larry's giving it. I like to take it with Michael. I don't take it…and in Zen, it's even more so. When I was in Zen, it was like… I feel it's misleading or even with the refugee, the precepts, I would say, if you don't feel you can take all five, take one that you're sincere about because and the others, they grow out of intelligence. To not lie, does it have to be like, come down from God, like a lightning bolt? Thou shalt not lie. You learn that lying doesn't work. It produces exactly the opposite effect. It destroys things and it interferes with the quality. So, I'm afraid the real answers have connected. But you are coming, so you're doing it. And so, I do have… Questioner: It’s amazing. Larry: okay, so what is it that's amazing, see because maybe it's language that we're getting. Questioner: No, it’s just funny how I keep coming. Larry: Yeah. Okay, I'll take what I can get. All right. Okay. End_time: 01:05:21