Cardiff Central - Very nearly a decent title!

Welcome to the Cardiff Central Podcast. Hello and welcome to another episode of Cardiff Central Podcast. As always, it's me in the hot seat of Harley. I'm joined, as ever, by Carwyn and Dan. How are you doing, boys? How was your long weekend? Well, it was a working weekend for me, so that's way to make of that what you will. I was busy on Saturday primarily and worked a bit Monday, but it wasn't too bad. I had a couple of days off, which was nice. I don't know about you, Dan. What was yours like? Yeah, a bit of fully farm action on Saturday. I can't fault it. I did have a little one, just didn't go by myself. Obviously, a massive fan of like horses, but yeah, he enjoyed that. And a bit of bank holiday traffic on the way there and back as well, just for a laugh. But other than that, stuffed myself with chocolate for a couple of days. Excellent stuff. As for myself, I played rugby, got absolutely wankered, and Saturday was a write-off. That's all we need to know about that, especially if the video surfaced of me in the pub singing the not-scout-friendly version of Yogi Bear on top of a table. I'll explain later. That sounds like an off mic conversation. Moving on. So, a little bit of news this week. So, Cardiff Rugby announced this week that Jamie Hill has left the club with immediate respect to pursue an opportunity down in Australia for the Sheep Shield, which Carl Wimby, the journalist, was very on the pulse of this and went, what's that? Yeah, I do feel bad about that. That one had the net, to say the least. I think before the pod, I was just stunned, actually, that he's going. But more stunned where he's going as well. It seems a bit of a bizarre move. And for Cardiff to let him, or allow him, or whatever you want to call it, to move is a sign, perhaps, that they've got a plan. Well, I hope it's a sign that they've got a plan for Scrum Hearts next season. Because, obviously, that would leave them with Ellis Bevan as the only Scrum Half, really. I don't think Aubrey's contract is posted this year at the moment. So, there have been rumours about grabbing one of the Scarletts boys, particularly Hardy. There have been a lot of rumours around that probably a couple of months ago, really, now. And that seems to have died down. So, hopefully, there's a plan for a Scrum Half at Cardiff in the near future. Yeah, I was a bit surprised. But I think, if you look at Hill's career, I think the big thing is, he's just so unlucky with injuries at really key moments. I mean, I think it was Achilles he did in training in South Africa last season or season before. And when you're losing 12 to 18 months between the ages of 20 to 23, it's a long way back from there, particularly at nine, where you know, the only way you can properly get to grips with that game management stuff is minutes on the field, basically. But yeah, I think, just on what Carwyn said, that it does leave us short for next season, it also leaves us short right now. I mean, Bevan and Aubrey are our two nines now. We don't even have a travelling reserve at nine at the moment in the squad. So, I would imagine there'll be somebody coming in short term, or whether they were in a position to bring whoever they presumably have lined up next season in early. But there's also, I'll talk in the pathway a bit later about the under-18s, but Sean Davies, who started against England on Saturday and has captained Cardiff's under-18s this season, Glantaff boy, he's an excellent talent. He's an excellent talent and next season will probably be a season too early, but I suspect we'll see him quite prominently in the rags of the EDC next season, but certainly two to three years they'll be having an eye on him coming through. So, where the squad is now, you know, I think there has to be a cutthroat element of lads, once they get to sort of 23-24s, before we might have been able to sit on players until they were 25-26 and see if they could make it. I think now you have to make tough calls earlier, just to free up any budget, unless you're certain about players making it at 23-24, then the hard decisions are now accelerated because of the lack of budget. That's the mad thing though, isn't it? Because that's what the EDC is supposed to do. It's supposed to help those players between 20-26 that aren't quite making it in the regions, but if they're not making it in the regions and they're being let go, where do they go then? Do they go back to the clubs? Do they then move outside the pathway like Jamie Hill has? It's going to be, that's the whole purpose, was to help these players. They use Jack Morgan as the example several times about a player who is let go and then moved back into that club region and then progressed further. Well, if you're a tight-head prop, that could be 25-26. So, yes, it's a bit of a strange one, isn't it? And that's where Cardiff actually might, obviously, having only the rags in the EDC, it's great for the academy lads that we've got. You keep them together, basically use them as a second 15. But if you take Ethan Lloyd, released by the rags last season, goes up to Mirtha, decent wage there, still playing at a decent level, so you can keep a close eye on him. But now Jamie Hill, who I think if Mirtha in the EDC, assuming Jamie Hill was happy to stay in South Wales and didn't want to head off to Australia and life experiences and all that outside of rugby, but he'd have been prime Mirtha candidate to then play in the EDC and we could have kept a close eye on him and drafted him back in as and when. So that is the downside of Cardiff only having one regional club in the competition next season. We'll have to, maybe we'll just try and like conquer Aberavon or something like that. I've now got an image of us waging war at Aberavon. I feel the people of Richard Hibbard just standing in front of us, like, holding the gates at Aberavon. I'm pretty sure Bridgend's in the EDC, surely that's the more natural first step. I don't want to conquer them, I'm sick of them. That's it, yeah. I'm not massively also with the Sheep Shield, but as I've heard now, I know it's sort of similar to like the NPC in New Zealand, but is it similar to it? It's quite a short season though, is it? It's actually sort of started to become a good play in the Sheep Shield, but is it more of a long-term thing, do we know? I think it's, I don't even think it's comparable to the NPC in New Zealand, isn't it like specifically, I don't know what the state is, wherever Sydney is, it's like specifically that that part of Australia, I don't think they even play outside of that state. I don't know if that's Queensland or New South Wales or whatever one it is, but... I mean, well, Australia is quite weird because it is only that one corner really, and then you have the Western Force, which is just like the poles, right? Then it's all like NRL territory then, basically. There's a couple, I think Harry Fry, who was a young Cardiff lad, but I think was on the Books of the Dragons, I think he's playing for a team out there at the moment. I remember Rory Bartle, who was, I think, bounced around the English Championship a bit, Jersey, and London Welsh, briefly was on the Books of the Rags and then went down there as well. So there's been a couple of random guys who played down there, but I don't know how highly that speaks of the quality of the competition, certainly. Some good team names in there, though, I will say, like the Manly Sea Eagles and all this sort of stuff. I might have to go and have a look and find out. Anyway, the other bit of news here, a bit of Cardiff news, was they announced the financial reports for the year ending June 2023. So Cardiff had a loss of £2.1 million, which is down on £2.2 million from the previous year. I mean, it's professional sport, they're all loss-making businesses. I think Man United lose £26 million every year or something along those lines. Apparently it's the end of the world for some sports journalists, despite neglecting that their favourite English Premiership team lost £5 million on their own. But we won't go into that. I mean... No, I'm interested. Any real stories? Every year, people like to read it, so people write about it, don't they, every year, the loss-making. And that's the situation. There's two ways of looking at it. At the moment, having a loss-making business in the current climate of rugby does look bad. With my accountancy hat on, you basically just need someone to write a letter saying, well, we'll take care of this and we'll make sure there's a going concern going forward, and we'll keep track of it. And we've got the financial backing, we've got the financial funds to make sure that it's OK. And that doesn't tend to always be as bleak as it sounds. The losses, look, Scarlett's were quite strong, weren't they? Murder Act came out really strongly saying, you know, things need to change with the WIU. And you put the blame at their door, along with Covid and the pandemic and everything else and inflation as well. But I haven't seen as much from Cardiff since, which I think reflects of, it's a bit awkward for them to really come out and say, well, we're in a really bad position when they've just gone through a takeover. So I think it's, look, this is June 2023. So it's more interesting what the situation will be in June 2024, I think, with the new ownership and how that will go forward. So, yeah, as far as this year, it's probably the least interesting of all the losses that we've seen in the regions. And I think it's because it's before we've had this shortened budget, you know, we're going to have a reduction in our wage bill, whether that translates to, you know, if we don't, if we gain any extra turnover. Plus also our seasonal attendance has been higher. Hopefully that means a bit more in ticket sales, a bit more behind the bar in food stores. I imagine you'll have made a, I don't know how the situation works when capitalists take to Wales for the subsidies for women. So I don't know if having an extra fixture there helps, but, and if anyone who listens does know that, please do get in touch, because that'd like to be quite interesting. I thought that was the main takeaway that I haven't flicked through the accounts was that our turnover was up 3 million, bounce back from COVID, commercial income up half a million, which considering we were sort of like plateauing on a mediocre level is not too bad. So there's, I mean, 16 million is, is a lot more than like the off space, for example, I don't think they break 10 million. I think they only have to submit the accounts of a small business because they don't get over the 10 million market. So, you know, we're in a healthy position to kick on. And yeah, like I said, Peter is covering that 2 million and Health and Capital will cover it going forward. If we can keep growing that income at a decent level, particularly non-matchday income, you know, we've seen all the stuff around the World Cup this year, the events at the Arms Park, and then Six Nations as well. That's the big growth. If you keep an eye on that turnover number, as long as that continues to steadily improve, I don't think there's too much concern. Hmm. Yeah. Any more news that anyone else has on the Bitcoin? Anyone want to discuss? If there doesn't, that's all rumours. Cardists have announced today that they're going to have a big farewell celebration to players leaving the club, whether through retirement or finding opportunities elsewhere for the Edinburgh game. So please make sure you get down there. You know, one last time this season. And yeah, so shall we move on to some actual rugby that was actually played? Yeah, I don't know if you need to call it, but I do want to go to Thursday. But then you watch the Newport and everything. I thought it was cracking. It makes it interesting now that the Rags will probably play Newport if we get fourth now, I think, if that's right. And if Newport win out, they'll top the league now, won't they? Yeah, they can't top the league, which probably gets them a little bit. I'm not saying it's necessarily an easier job going away to Newport than it is going away. I fancy it's a Newport more than I fancy it's a Flandovry, certainly. Agreed. And it's easier to get to as well. Flandovry's miles from everywhere. I moved down to Llanelli a few years ago and thought, oh, great, Flandovry would be close, because it's all in Carmarthenshire. We're still driving an hour later. Don't understand that it's so far away from everything. I would agree normally, but Newport are flying. They are flying. I think it'll be a cracking game, though. Yeah, I will. We'll do them. They've thrashed, like, so many teams in the last couple of weeks. Pontypridd, that was, well, they ultimately cost a lot of jobs there, but the performance there was beyond belief. Eberveil, they've beaten everyone in this run-in really convincingly. To be honest, the way they're going, unless something ridiculous happens, I struggle to see how they don't win the league from this position. They're performing that well. O'Brien is just pulling every string he's got, which seems to be five million. He's got every trick in the bag, every kick in the bag, every pass in the bag. I don't know when the semi-finals are, but they'd better be on the day the Dragons are playing, so that O'Brien isn't there for Newport. Yeah, it just should be a bit of a cheat code, doesn't it, to have a coach for the Dragons down there, doesn't it? I think you should be disallowed. You shouldn't be allowed to play if you're a coach for a region. After Fishy led us to a few titles, I think we'll... Yeah, sure. Right, anyway, so going on to more rugby within the Cardiff area. So Cardiff were away to Manchester on Saturday night. Final score, 32 points to Manchester, 16 to Cardiff. First points of the game didn't come until 38 minutes, which is a penalty. I thought that was an incredibly scrappy, very engrossing game. I couldn't take my eyes from it, but I also hated the sheer amount of mistakes that both sides made. I don't know what your opinions are on that. Do you want to go first, Dan? Yeah, I don't disagree with that summary. I thought about having watched Dragons v Zebra on Friday and sort of despaired at the amount of errors, and made a dig at them on Twitter, and then found myself in the first half of the Cardiff Munster game like, oh no, we're doing the same thing again. But I thought actually a lot of it came from the pressure that we put Munster under, particularly in the first half. We went hard to their attacking breakdown early. They, I think maybe naturally, were a little bit rusty where they brought a few guys back into their team, a few Irish internationals, and it took them a little while to get up to speed. But we certainly didn't let them develop any rhythm. Unfortunately, we couldn't quite develop any rhythm of our own either. It was defences on top. But I was really impressed by the way we stuck in it, because a 10-0 down early in that second half, we'd fallen away a number of times their way at Munster. And it could have got ugly quite quickly at that point. But actually, we put together some really impressive attacking sets. The set piece was strong. Individually, you know, I don't think anybody had a poor game. A couple of lads had particularly good games. I thought somebody who we mentioned last week on the pod, Cowan, said it should definitely be Simon. Ben Donnell was excellent to second row. I thought Belcher was superb again, although he seems to be slowly breaking down under the weight of carrying the team on his back. I thought Mackenzie Martin had probably his best game for Cardiff so far. The halfbacks was probably where we just fell down slightly. And, you know, I think that points to the kind of limitations of having, you know, a 10 who's still adjusting a bit and has come from the Curry Cup, and Bevan who's still adjusting, stepping up into the first team. But outside them, Grady looked really good at 13 when it was solid. And I thought Ben Thomas probably had his best game of the season as well at Insight Centre, so yeah, lots to like. It's a bit same old in terms of losing bonus points and all that, but contextually, I think if you were, let's say we'd already won six or seven games a season, we had a run of Glasgow and Munster away where we were pushing for the playoffs, you take two losing bonus points from that at that point of the season as well. So all in all, pretty happy. I think the way it becomes a really good resultant performance is if we then go on and play well against Ulster and then probably target Edinburgh at home for a win. It's an interesting way, isn't it? Because, like, there's two ways of looking at it. If you said to me before the start of the season, that Cardiff would go away to Munster and away to Glasgow, come away with two bonus, losing bonus points, I'd be like, oh fair play, that's really good performances, really well done. When it's been a theme and it's like one in, what is it, one in nine losses now by more than seven points, it's just ridiculous. Like, I don't think I've ever seen a record like it that they've been in. Fair play for, you know, they always say about youngsters, about a lack of consistency, but Cardiff have been so, so consistent this season, just sadly the wrong side of that consistency line where it's positive. Talking on another podcast, which I'm involved in on a Monday, Ellis Jenkins was on and he was talking about how he wasn't happy with the result, he wasn't happy with the performance, and I thought that was really good. That wasn't someone saying, right, we're as a team thinking, oh yeah, we've done well, we've gone up to Munster and we've got a point. It was, we should have won that game, we could have won that game, Munster weren't great, we weren't great, but we could have got over the line. And I think that is really positive for the future. That's a team that isn't in, you know, there's a lot of talk about it being in transition throughout this season, but it isn't a team that's just in transition. It's a team that want to knock over that first domino and get that domino effect that we talked about last week. But yeah, I think there are lots of positives from the game. The halfbacks one is one that I can't wait to see Sheedy and Tinnis together because it just needs someone with Tinnis. If Tinnis is having a bad five, ten minutes, which Bly Haas have, Bly Haas have bad games, that someone else could come in and just try and steal the ship in a different way for ten minutes. Yeah, I think it's about the competition as well, isn't it? I know, you know, there are some players who, you know, they want to know that they've hit the plate and they've been secure. I mean, what I hear from most Tenns is, you know, they like being told that they're the guy, but they also like having a guy who can overtake them at any time. I feel with Tinnis, it's basically, you're not starting ten unless you break yourself. Jockey hasn't really lent an arm or something, you know, he spent most of his minutes for rags. You know, it's very come on. Ben Thomas then, you know, he usually used more as an injury cover if he just does pick up the knock in the game. I said, I've been loving, I'm loving so much how Ben Thomas is playing at 12. I mean, that intercept read and the pace. I knew he wasn't a slow lad, but god, did he have to do that? And he didn't even look out of breath on the edge. So it's like, can I ask about Ben? And because I'm interested on this, because sadly, Joe Roberts has a season-ending knee injury, and he's out for the start of next season as well. And, you know, he was the obvious person to play at 13. There was talk of him and Grady playing as a centre combination. If Grady is now the 13, which it looks all likely, would you like to see Ben at 12 for Wales? Personally, yes, I do think he does offer, you know, he gives you that distribution and stuff that you want in the Republicans, but also has that bit. I mean, I know Sam spoke last week about, you know, maybe Beatham having that extra more natural ball that might translate. I'm not sure Beatham is quite ready. Yeah, you know, I think he needs to sort of break into some of his ready things and a quick note to Beatham, a sheer ball of steel in that case. Walk on the pitch, say, yeah, I'll do that. Think of a penalty, like it's just like losing bonus points. It's good lad. Can't I miss you when you're injured? No, I agree. Like I said about Beatham last week, and overall, I still think he does have the highest ceiling at 12. But this summer, if Ben's not in the squad and pushing to start at 12, I'd be massively surprised. And I think if you look at Wales with 12 options, I've been a big fan of Tompkins. He's really good in the World Cup. He's done a solid job sort of taking over from Hadley Parks and providing some consistency there. But if you look at the other 12 options in Wales coming through now, it's Ben Thomas, it's Aneurin Owen. Eddie James as well. I think Aneurin Owen, Harry Ackerman of the under-20s as well. There's those three guys who, and I put Watkin in this as well, actually, as a 12, who are a bit more confident going in at first receiver and really creating than Tompkins is. And when you've got a more experienced 10, which likely this summer is going to be Costolo and Lloyd again, maybe Shidio and Evans could go in there if they're fit. But I don't think Gatland's going to go straight back to Anscombe or recall Aneurin Williams or something like that. If he sticks with the young guys, having a second ball player in there at 12 just takes the pressure off them, especially if it's Lloyd and to a degree Costolo. Freeing them up to move into that wide channel where they can be really effective is great for their game and great for Wales's game, because we know that we've still got incredible talent, 13, 11, 14, 15, who can break a line if you give them a yard of space, but it's just about giving them that yard of space. So, I suppose the slightly tricky thing is that how much do you need a centre to give you that game line if you put Grady back in at 12 or Eddie James or if Johnny Williams is on his occasional week of fitness, then they could go in there as well. But in an ideal world, I'd love to see Wales build around a proper play-making 10 and 12, and Ben is probably the best play-making 12 in Wales at the moment. I also think he can give you that sort of game line because of that injection of pace, and he has bolted a bit and he is learning to use his weight a lot better, that's one of it. For me, that's his biggest improvement this season. It's like I said on the wrap, it's not a thing against Tompkins, but Tompkins is a chaos engine, and that's fine if the 10 can deal with shit being thrown everywhere. So, that's why I think Tompkins played so well with bigger 10s for Wales, and with, you know, with all kinds of starries, whereas when they had Manu as an opponent, it just goes a bit wrong, where I feel like he's not the sort of 12 who'll support the 10, who's looked for a bit of confidence by getting Owen Watkins in, because he's been having to do that a bit in the Ospreys, getting Jack Walsh in, getting Dan Edwards, and he is just a very solid operator anyway. That was one of the things I thought about Ben Thomas, about why he had his best game on Saturday as well. Defensively, obviously you mentioned about the read for the interception, the read and the hit to win that penalty right at the end, to step out of the line, and I can't recall who it was, it might have been Crowley that he's absolutely flown through his chest. It was Carbery, was it? It's probably our best defensive moment of the season, in terms of just somebody stepping out of the line and going, I'm coming straight through the middle, I'm not hitting you, I'm hitting through you. And I think Thomas Young gets straight over the top and they go off their feet. In that one defensive moment, it gives us the losing bonus point and the chance to win the game. Ultimately, we couldn't quite take it. But yeah, he's certainly improved massively in that area, because it was the question mark pre-Six Nations about whether he was a dominant defender, and if you're going to do it anyway, that Tome End is a good place to prove it. Yeah, absolutely. Manchester is not a place for the same to pass. I'm not entirely sure how many actual over-the-ball turnovers we got, but there were many, and it's now securing us first and newest UCLC standings for turnovers won. The Ox-based boys can say how wonderful it is, we say we've had the most individually, we're lucky we've had the most all together, because we don't need one player, we've got many. That's my positive stats piece, so for a couple of weeks' time. Make a change from the negative what I have to do on Monday, but anyway, we move on. But a big part of that turnover though, and that just as he hasn't been name checked yet, and he appeared on Carwyn's other podcast on Monday, Ellis Jenkins was absolutely brilliant for 50 minutes on Saturday. It reminds me of that game, that random playoff game against Stade Francais a couple of years ago, where he played seven, nine and 13 all in one game. He did that whilst just wearing seven the whole time on Saturday. He was absolutely everywhere, he was over the ball in the middle of the pitch, linking play in the wide channels, every turnover ball he popped up randomly and was putting boot to ball at the right time. It was a proper throwback, the sort of classic Ellis Jenkins pre-injury. It's tinged with sadness, I guess, on what could have been elements if that hit hadn't happened in South Africa. I did my halftime tweet and just said it was Munster 3, Ellis Jenkins 0, because at times he was just holding us in that game by himself in the first half. He's brilliant. He's done so much and he's been such a brilliant player for Cardiff. I think he was talking this week about how his role has changed and now he's more of a leader element. We spoke about leadership earlier in the season, Harley and I, several times, and I think no one can epitomise the leadership more than Ellis now. I think he's such a strong leader. I don't think, without Turnbull and him being there, and probably Fallot behind the scenes as well a bit, I don't think Mackenzie Martin and Alex Mann get international caps this year. They are talented players and have done it on their own backs and they deserve it, but they also have a lot to thank for those two or three experienced lads helping them through as well. I think that's one of the things I was trying to say. It sometimes is worth having that elder head, as long as they are showing it. You can see the younger generation being brought through. That's part of the reason why we've managed to keep hold of Ray Leland so well as we have. Yes, you could argue he was blocking a place for them to hold them, but also he was there. You know, I can't think of a better 13 in the URC to learn off things like defending boys' middle footwork, because Ray is just... Pete Gray is just unbelievable. Do we have any more thoughts or questions you want to do with this game or are we happy to park it? Well, can we talk about diving gate and whether or not Rhys Carrow should have dived? Is that on the blocking for their try? Yes. I'm just saying, if that's Saxon, he's on the floor. I'm just saying. I'm trying to not condone diving. However, it might have helped the scenario had he made a really big point to Ciarazzi that he'd been blocked off from the tackle. I don't think Harry made enough of the fact he had been blocked off, because he had been. If he's... really, sounds bad, but he should have absolutely... I can't remember the name of the sevens, is it? John Hodner. Thank you. He should have absolutely just smashed into his back, because he's in the way of him making a tackle on Crowley. If Hodner's not there, he does probably make that tackle. I'm not saying Edmundson don't score then a try in the next phase, but it would have given Cardiff a penalty and got them back out there for the pitch. So, personally, I think there should have been more made of it from Cardiff, and possibly try to make more of it in terms of a capacity going up to the referee and saying, look, this is what's happened. I was at Scarlett's on the weekend, and I was sat two along from Tween Peel. And from one of their tries, Tween Peel's is yelling at one of the... I think it's Emma Phillips, but I'm not 100% sure. He's yelling at him, like, tell Ryan Ellis to go to the ref, tell him to go to the ref about this, tell him to go to the ref about this. And I assume that was being done at Cardiff as well, but that needs to be given to Cardiff, even though refs are less reluctant, well, are more reluctant, sorry, I should say, to speak to players nowadays, it seems. It is interesting, because I think it's something that's been levelled at Cardiff for a while, mixed into that piece about leadership and stuff, is that we perhaps don't get in the referees' ear enough in games. And Heardy actually, I mean, he spoke to both teams about it, but particularly Cardiff, about players getting in his ear. He called Belcher over, I think, once in each half to sort of say, and then, I mean, we don't like to dwell on refereeing, but obviously there was, it should have been a red card for the dump tackle on Belcher, I think, at least one red card. I mean, I wouldn't, I don't think you could argue if he'd shown two red cards, the two Munster players who picked him up. I don't know how factually correct that is in law, but if you were both of those Munster players, you'd not got much of a leg to stand on if you get given a red card. And Belcher was the issue. But I was going to make that joke and I'll probably do too. But even our physio, Dan Jones, our physio, got told off by the referee for shouting at him after that. He said, if you shout like that again, you're off the touchline. So we are getting in But yeah, maybe just trying to do it at the right times and in the right way is maybe the way to do it. But yeah, I mean, I'm still baffled at the reasoning for neither being a red card and that it wasn't a high degree of danger because he landed on his shoulder. I mean, if you're a player who's being driven towards the ground, are you meant to just be like, right, I'm going to plank this here and wait for my neck to be fused into my spine just so it is a high degree of danger? Like, no, come on, guys. This is a hill I've been trying to bloody dial for ages. I do not think that an ascending player should be rewarded for the victim's sense of self-preservation. If you're in and when Will Rugby is supposedly saying how much they care about player safety and TMO saying, oh no, I'm not going to flag this up because Austin Healy mentioned it. It doesn't matter that Austin Healy mentioned it. If that was a dirty cheap shot, I don't care. Even if it was on a wing-tangle, you know, it's a dirty cheap shot. And then you just have things like that. The issue with the length of the one, the um, the length of the bar on Tilt-the-Aaron's-Eye. I once was hearing about the bloody RTE pundits as they extended the whole thing saying, yeah, it should be Aaron's who got the yellow card, actually, because it led with his foot. The thing that annoys me about the URC on that then, though, is that you never hear of anyone getting cited in the URC. Very rarely does, you know, after like a European round, EPCR put out their disciplinary decisions and there's at least one round of somebody getting cited. URC, I don't know if anyone's, I don't recall a Cardiff player ever being cited. Obviously they're being disciplined for being sent off, isn't it? There is one. I can't remember who it was. I wouldn't, it's had a whole load of citations. I think Seb's been, he's been cited, he's had citation warnings, which is basically when you've missed out on a yellow card. But I just, I mean, you're not telling me that there, how many games are in the URC? Is it eight games? There's 16 teams, isn't there? So it's eight games, eight games a weekend. You're telling me for the majority of those weekends, nobody's done anything that the referees missed. I just, it's not a criticism of refereeing. It's just on a sort of like, on whatever the odds are of that, there's little chance that, you know, the referees are picking up every single thing. I don't know whether they're just trying to save face and the citing officer, he watches the games with his eyes shut or something like that, I mean. I don't know about that, but it's certainly inconsistent when compared to the EPCA. I do agree with that. It seems like the likelihood seems baffling that it wouldn't be as consistent as it is there. I think the McGrath one, I said, if he's not a scrimmath, that's probably a red. And I know that's what I think to say. If he was in Pacific Island, that would have been a straight red. It wouldn't have been a question. That's the other one. And you see it all the time. Like I've now seen like 50, 50 doors, you know. However, he did put a horrendous challenge in on the weekend. So I can't really back that. I don't know if anyone's seen that. I just meant, I'm not saying he doesn't do one. There have been ones where it's like, yeah, no, I know. And if it was like a higher ranked team, they always go. Knowingly, that's just how rugby goes. More successful teams get away with it. Yeah, I just struggle. I think you've chosen the wrong player for me this week. I've only seen the highlights of that game because I saw the score on mine. I don't, I'm not, I don't have to talk about the Scarlet game, but I don't like that. Yeah, I, yeah, I was there for that one and it won great. But let's move on before I get on a rant about Scarlet, which I shouldn't be. Anyway, so I said, I think that's it for Scarlet. I think we'll do a red season, as we haven't got a game for the next two weeks. We'll do a sort of rundown of all the remaining games. I think that, weirdly, I'll just briefly say my thought, because I was bored tinkering away on my spreadsheet and I worked out how many points each team has missed. I don't think Scarlet's going to really have a shot at getting into the top eight anymore. But what we do have with all the teams we're playing, we have a realistic chance of deciding who does go into the top eight. So you're telling me there's a chance. There is a chance. Do you know what's the baffling thing about the URC? Scarlet still could make top eight. I mean, this is a close league decision. It's going to be very difficult because I think of all the other results going away. They could make it. Because I was thinking, oh, surely there's enough sides playing each other that means that Scarlet's haven't got it. No, Scarlet's could genuinely make it top eight. More importantly than making the playoffs, there's a chance that we could still retain the hubcap and that's what we really want. That's what we're after. Now I do have, give me two seconds, I can give you the lowdown on the hubcap at the moment. If it comes down to judges they elect with, we're all there. Yeah, two seconds, because you can't actually get the current sizes of a hubcap, because I noticed they've taken that out of the website for some reason. Yeah, so I think it's just because it's too much effort and you've got to be really savvy to go work it out. So using the same criteria as the URC table, so it's table points, number of wins, then points difference. So currently, Osprey's are in the lead with 14 points, but they have two games to go. We've got 12 now. Then it's Scarlet's on 11 and Dragon's on 9. So again, Dragon's is on 10, so they could potentially finish on 19. We could finish on 17, so it would require Dragon's to beat Osprey's and then it's basically a straight shootout then between us and the Ospreys on the judgment day. They're on the hubcap. But also, us and the Ospreys are the only two teams with a positive points difference on the air. I mean, it's only two poor things, but for the Derby, so Ospreys have a plus 27 points difference. We have plus 23, and then both Scarlet's and Dragon's have negative 25 from all the Derby's they've played so far. We shouldn't be cruising for that. Those Scarlet's games are annoying me, particularly the home one. Have you looked at the wider league points difference, boys? Lions in 11th are plus 77. Yeah, they average 3.7 points a game. That is because they're largely losing by like five or six points, but then they beat Dragon's and Zebra by 50-60, or 40-50 rather, and then they beat someone else. They haven't. Sharks, I think they haven't as well, and Conor. So they're in a great position in points difference, but they're down in 11. Then you've got Benetton in sixth with a minus points difference. I did see a stat, I think it was before last weekend's games, that Munster and, it might have been Benetton, did Benetton win on the weekend? I didn't really see it. So I think before the weekend, Benetton were just out of the playoffs or whatever, but then Munster and Benetton had the same record, but Munster were like seven points ahead of them, purely on bonus points or something like that as well, which is... Yeah, and Pembrokeshire's just as mad this evening. I think from second to eighth, everyone's won eight games, but then it's all bonus points. And Ospreay, for once, have actually got more bonus points than another team. They've got more bonus points than Benetton ahead of them, and Edinburgh are a couple of spaces below them. Yeah, it's a mad state of affairs in the ULC. We'll probably go into Pitbull the remaining proper year, next week, otherwise there will be very little to talk about. Unless we get to mock Ospreay for the trick of playing a game in a bog, it didn't work. So shall we go on to Wales women versus England women, and the Red Roses? On the face of it, very nasty score. So we lost 46-10, but that is a 20-point improvement on the death point, on the deficit from last year. We prevented one more, so England scored one fewer tries and we scored one more, and it was a win. I know Bristol are effectively faces in Wales now, you know, when you think about it. We march at dawn. What can I say? There's some very nice microbreweries there. I want them under our under our flag. I think there are positives. It's the first time we've kept them under 50 in the Six Nations for like eight years. It's the most we've scored since before Covid. So yeah, nasty scoreline, but probably the most to like out of a Wales-England game from a Wales perspective for a good couple of years. It took them a while to really get going, and then the last 20, we were probably a better team for large parts of that, I thought, to be honest. Our bench was particularly good. The issue was we just could not create anything in attack, really. We had some really decent attacking sets and, you know, possession territory-wise, we were pretty even, which hasn't been the case very often against England. But I think the issue I felt was we were just slower than them in sort of key areas. Against a team like England, there's not going to be gaping holes in their defence. When the gap opens, you've got to take it. And similarly, when you're defending, they're going to punch even half a gap and they're going to take a weak shoulder and go for it. I don't know if it's a question of whether we are just slow, because obviously we're missing Jazz Joyce, you know, Kieran Lake's on the top side of 30. Hannah Jones has never been, she's never been known as a rapid 13, essentially. But the other thing, I thought we were just a little bit hesitant at key moments, sort of defensive line speeds. There were opportunities if we commit and come up and really get in their faces. England were making errors, you know, they weren't their free-flowing self. But we just sort of, in the wide channels, we half came up, sat off, ended up drifting and they got round us a bit easy. And then in attack as well, we were a little bit deep. We weren't coming onto the ball at pace. So I thought that's where we just were a couple of percent off. And when you're a couple of percent off against England, they're just going to kill you eventually. But there was, you know, same as talking about, you know, how Ellis Jenkins felt after the Munster game. There was points to like, but I think the good thing about this Wales team is that they probably were ultimately disappointed that they didn't get closer. And that seemed like, listen to what Sean Harris said on Scrum 5 and on the Scrum 5 pod this week, and a couple of the post-match interviews as well from Tenningham and from the players, that is the overwhelming emotion. So if they can just turn that couple of percent up against Ireland, there's a good performance in there and a winning performance in there as well. Yeah, I think I came into it a little bit expecting the worst on the back of the Scotland performance, including the result. I think the result wasn't actually that bad in terms of that, but the performance, the attacking element is the key one, isn't it? And you look at the last 10 minutes, really Wales just got at least one more try. They were dominant in the last 10 minutes. One thing I will say, Katie Powell being back and looking brilliant, fair play. She looked for someone who hasn't played that much rugby in the last, well, year, nearly two years now. She was brilliant off the bench, I thought, and added a bit of zip to the attacking play and coming in first receiver, regularly bringing players into play and attacking, and that aspect of it was brilliant. Thuy Plotu is brilliant, obviously, off the bench, but that's expected of a 19-year-old to excel in Thuy Plotu. But I thought, yeah, it's just still a little bit soft try has been conceded. The second Kilden try is soft. Basically, just she gets on the outside and then gets around Jenny Hesketh a little bit too easily. And yes, it is only Jenny Hesketh's second cap, but that's one where you go, that needs to be shored up and that needs to be a tackle that's made because defensively, Wales are in a different position, I would say, than they were two years ago. Two years ago, Wales were having to do a lot of work in their own 22 because they couldn't get any kick distance. Now Wales aren't getting as much experience defending in their own 22 because they're getting a bit more territory. So therefore, the defensive, especially in those wider channels, there's going to be more attacks down that channel because there's more space. People are attacking from further out rather than this close-knit, next-to-the-ruck stuff. I think there's still a brilliant back row there. Alex Callender is having one hell of a tournament so far. She's brilliant. And Beth Lewis as well is playing well and fully justifying a new loss of contract that she signed this week. But it's just one or two things not quite marrying up at the moment. I think Hesketh is young, obviously. I think they're trying to blood her young and it's a coup that they've got her. And if you compare her story versus Meg Jones's story, and Meg Jones obviously played for England on the weekend, it was brilliant, annoyingly so, after she'd come out and said something like, I made the best call I could of going to England's pathway at the time. And I think she said something along those lines. And yeah, I like her because she was a former Glantab, people like myself. But the fact of the matter is, hopefully in the future, people won't be doing what she did because there is a professional program there in place now in Wales and it will be comparable in the future. It's still not quite there yet, but it is getting there, albeit one step at a time. Yeah, what do you guys think? I think there was a bit of debate about the number of changes. I know you've sort of said, oh yeah, it's young. So in the game of the changes, but actually, I feel like in the past, they were changes we basically all called for on this podcast, it's just pretty good on coming and listening to us. That's why everyone listening should tell all their friends and family to listen as well. One thing that did seem to go down is with Natalia John being on the bench, you know, do you think that had anything to do with one of the line-outs at the time, or was it? Is it just the fact that it's Wales, therefore we must have a craft line-out at least one game every three or four? I thought the calling was a little bit odd in that we did persist on throwing it to the back when it wasn't particularly working. But, you know, I think I didn't mind the changes on the basis that the impact the bench brought was really good in that last quarter. And I think it proves that Wales do have better depth now. That is the one thing about the squad is that, you know, if you can, because I thought Scrum was tough, but I thought Donnaroe's done all right. And then if you can release it to a Pilotto off the bench, that's great. I thought Sian Jones done pretty well at nine. And then you can release a Kiera Bevan off the bench, then that's great for the final quarter as well. And you still see in the women's game, I think that the final quarter is really crucial, perhaps more so than the men's game, to a degree. I think that it's just space opens up a little bit more. And if you can get fresh legs on in the right areas, you can take advantage of that. If you can raise the tempo at the right time, which Bevan did, she really brought a zip to that attack. And with Kayleigh Powell as well, who, yeah, I wasn't, I'm not really aware of what's happened. I know she was with the sevens for a bit. I assume she's been injured as well. But yeah, I think ACL as well. Oh, she was in ACL as well, yeah. That's probably just the easiest thing to guess for the women's game, unfortunately. But yeah, I think to use your whole squad, I don't think is a bad call from Cunningham and really develop that depth in a game like this. But yeah, I haven't watched it back properly to look at the lineouts. In my mind, they sort of went all right. And then I looked at the stats and I was surprised actually by how, but then England's was quite poor as well, to be honest. So maybe Ashton Gate, I don't know. We'll just blame that. When we conquer it, we'll burn it down. Yeah, following on from what I can do over there. Do you want to talk about a debut very special to the pod? Yes, yes. I'm just really excited about it. It's a brilliant story. Someone who a year ago was starting Scrum R for World's Ender 20, starting ahead of Sian Jones as well. She's a year older than Sian. That's probably one of the reasons why. But she then felt she wasn't getting enough out of herself, basically, and said that she wanted to move to hooker. And then a bit of experience at league as well. Maybe that had had a bit of, you know, the hooker position is sort of Scrum R position in league. Maybe that had a bit of an influence on it there as well. But I was speaking to her former coach, well, current coach actually, I should say, points of key in the Cardiff Met, Lisa Newton, former Wales international as well. She said, yeah, it was just a discussion they'd had pre-season about that Molly had said, look, she wanted to try different, wanted to try hooker. And they put her in there and I think in a fair place to someone for making that change and then having that much of an influence on an international game for a start within a year of making that change, but also felt a challenge. She was brilliant. She's been really good this season as she's been playing for Cardiff Met as well. And yeah, it's just really exciting because a few years ago she was playing for Wales under-18s with another points of keen alumni, Maya Dixon in the halfbacks and they played really well. So to see that that's the progression that they've gone from, or she's gone from, I should say, rather playing Scrum Half, being consistent and taking that leap of faith and saying, right, yeah, I'm doing well at this point, but where can I improve? And going ahead and saying, right, I'm going to become a hooker and a world-class hooker, hopefully in the future. Maybe I'll push her on a bit, but she's not quite a world-class, but she is a brilliant hooker and can develop in the future. Yeah. So as I said, I thought it was great when she came on in basic. I think Kiera Bevan got stuck in the bottom of the record and took over for a few phases, but there have been some fantastic all-out line-ups in which when you say, oh, so-and-so has only converted to a hooker this year and you're like, no problem. Yeah, it's mad. It's bonkers, but I'm really excited about it. I really am. I'm slightly biased at Ponte Cleen, who I've gone down to watch a few times and yeah, it's just the quality of players they bring out every single season, it seems to be. It's brilliant. I'm very excited for the future. I mean, one of the things I said, another thing I saw on the spot was bringing Kate Williams in to start it, bringing Alicia Brooks on top of the bench. I thought that worked really well in this game. I thought Georgia Edgings as well is always awesome. If you've got Georgia Edgings and you sit in the middle, why are you not playing her? Because she is always awesome. Do you know random facts about Georgia Evans? Do you know who her cousin is? I do. We talked about him earlier, I think. Do we? Is it not Jamie Hill? Oh, that's news to me if it is as well, but Kerry Sweeney. Oh, really? I'm sure she's Jamie Hill's cousin as well, to be honest. I mean, let's just say we're Welsh, we're probably all cousins somewhere down the line. It seems to be two very different opinions on the part. We've got, let's take over the world and we're all incestuous. I think I've lost my train of thought there a bit. Just on Georgia Evans, I think I sometimes think about what a women's Lions team would look like and is it pointless because it would just be England? But I think she's one player who you could legit put in there as a potential starter as well. The England locks went all right on the weekend, but I don't think... She'd certainly be there. She'd certainly be on the plane to wherever they go. Rachel Welcome, I'd say. I think as a potential captain as well, because I think she is one of the best captains out there in rugby. She is. Just flat out, the way she spoke after Wales last year. I don't think I've ever heard a post-match interview like that, Rachel Malcolm. Sorry, Dan, but go on, carry on. No, it's a fair point then. I do think it's the one position where England probably don't dominate that Lions squad potentially. There's an Irish second row as well who's named... Dan Monaghan, Sonny Bill Monaghan. If you build these, I think you probably have most of the England front row. I mean, Botterman was a joke for England on Saturday. She was just everywhere. She's not just like sort of pushing people out of the way. She's like destroying their career on the way past. Just rub their face in it. She was a joke. So England dominate a lot of that, but certainly Georgia Evans and Tua Piloty were Welsh contenders to start in a Lions. Probably unfortunately for Callander is that she plays in a position where Marley Packer is. Shift Packer to eight. I could see, if they did do a Lions squad, I could see Callander going, whether she'd be good or bad. She'd definitely be there. She might end up playing like a top 14 selected team. What's the French woman's name that you'd go for? Oh, yeah. I don't know what I said. The Alianz Pram. No, then the French one. Oh, sorry. I don't know actually. Le Alianz Pram. Le Alianz Pram. Le Alianz Pram. Le Alianz Pram. Le Alianz Pram. Le Alianz Pram. Le Alianz Pram. Le Alianz Pram. Le Alianz Pram. Le Alianz Pram. Le Alianz Pram. Le Alianz Pram. Le Alianz Pram. Le Alianz Pram. Le Alianz Pram. I can't just sit and walk across people's heads. Get a better job. Yeah, I think it's 35-18 or something at the end. It was quite close. I thought it was 35-10. It was quite close to half time and then we ran away with it in the second half pretty much. So, that was quite a change team. It was the England game, lost by a point on Saturday. It was a great game. It's on the YouTube if you want to catch up with it. Two words, Tom Bowen. We signed him back from Bristol and Clifton next season. He was unbelievable, playing off the wing on Saturday. He's not a particularly short bloke. Relatively average height, I would say. The way he runs, his sense of gravity is so low. Probably only two or three players I can think of who have been able to have batted an error. The really top guy is Shane Williams, who can change direction whilst not dropping any speed. It's incredible the way he moves through players. He doesn't actually look like he's moving that quickly. They just sort of disappear. It's a very bizarre running style, I have to say. But it's so effective because it's so low. His sense of gravity is so low that it's impossible to tackle him. If you get a hand on the thigh, he's just going to go through it. The only way you can properly tackle him is if you happen to line him up, essentially. Yeah, he's a great pick-up. He played full-back today. It wasn't a game that set up too much of an impact. Although Stefan Manuel scored today off the bench, our other returner for next season, who looks particularly good. I think probably 12 long term. But yeah, those two lads in particular. And then a word for one of our other players is Tom Howe, who started a hooker against England. He is still under 16, but he's played for Cardiff under-18s and Wales under-18s now, starting ahead of Reuben Cummings, who was with us and is now at Gloucester. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Griff has said that we've... Because we did have Gavin Parry on the books, who played for Scotland in 20 in the end. I think they've moved on from him and contracted Tom Howe instead. And judging by his progression so far, it seems to be a pretty good decision. I know Griff was very excited when he came on the pod when we were talking about Tom and Stefan training. And I hope I've got a lot of words to say. I can't tell you the growth cost of his being a fill-in-the-blank to the rags at loose ends. On the other hand, he's equipped himself quite well for a young lad, and, you know, processing is probably not what the team wanted for him, but... Yeah, I was aware of him playing really well for Glamorgan Wanderers before Christmas, and he seems to have made the step up pretty seamlessly. I haven't watched much of the rags in the second half of the season, but he's, I think, who do they be on the weekend? Ab Ravan, wasn't it? And he's made a really nice carry before one of the tries, so he's certainly not looking out of place at that level. So, Cowan, we've heard that you've registered for a sort of a Premiership round with them? Yeah, well, we've started on it there, isn't it? Tardiff won at Ab Ravan. Ponte Prive, though, lost at Queen's, and I'll come back to the ramifications of that. But Merthyr did get the win at home to RGC, even though they only won by four points. So, an impressive performance from RGC, to be fair, considering they've been probably second best at a lot, most games this season. Certainly found travel difficult, as it normally is. But yeah, for the season as a whole, as we mentioned earlier, Newport are now top of the table. Four points clear of Slandovery, but Slandovery do have a game in hand. Cardiff are fourth still, 68 points. Ponte Prive are now a clear game more, and are on 58. I think that's them done in their top four ambitions, if I'm honest. The teams that could catch Cardiff are Ponte Pule and Merthyr, who are, yes, two and three points further back than Ponte Prive, respectively, but do have two games in hand on Cardiff. So could easily close that gap to, well, in Ponte Pule's case, could close that gap to two points if they win both games in hand with bonus points. And that's Merthyr, I do think, are still in the fight. But it is going to be Cardiff's place to lose going forward. If Cardiff win all their games, they will be short of being in the top four. One of them is against Merthyr. I think Cardiff play Merthyr a week Saturday. So if we win that, then we'll be pretty much feet up. When you say we, obviously you mean whoever wins between the two clubs for the Cardiff region. No, but yeah, for this weekend, Cardiff play Carmarthen at home. Good performance from Carmarthen last week, but you'd like to think at home that Cardiff can get the win there. And then the other games to just look out for, Neath Newport, always a big one, always an exciting one. Ebbw Vale, Aberavon, Aberavon, obviously being a bit up and down this season, but they'll be looking to fight. No Merthyr or Ponte Prive this weekend in Welsh premiership action. But yeah, as you mentioned, there is that juicy sort of a Merthyr-Cardiff tie on the 13th of April in Merthyr, that is. I think it's in Cardiff. According to the BBC Sport website, it's in Merthyr. But I will double check. They are not infallible. No comment. In fairness, the pictures don't actually come through. I'm going into too much detail about where they come from. But yes, I will double check that now. Yeah, it's at home on the Rags website. It's at home. It's at home according to Cardiff Rugby's website, according to Merthyr's website as well. It's in Cardiff. So I will be sending an email. Don't forget, as always for that game, if you are a Cardiff Rugby season ticket holder, you can attend the game for free. I think we switched their home and away games. I think that's probably why it's wrong with the BBC, because I think it was meant to be home on one of those European days and they don't let us doublehead to them. So we switched with them. But yeah, as Harley said, I know a lot of people whinging about how long there was between the two games. I think people forget that you can get in on your season tickets at Rags games. It's always Saturday 2.30. You can literally build a thing around it. And age-based games. So this leads me to a question that was posted last week, as unfortunately we didn't get time to. They were basically saying there's a lot of positivity that gets generated with all the high attention on the match paper. How do we do it with these big gaps in the fixture list? So obviously, you are seeing the league is trying not to play on international weekends. So that's a big concern. And if you're not getting to do something, what do you guys think? Just very quickly, because I'm aware of the time. What do you think we can do to try and keep this going? For me, I think it is just trying to push the age grade, push things, whether or not maybe next year's Celtic challenge, and we do have a team-based account, maybe include that as well. And actually get some drive towards that. Any thoughts? Yeah, I'd like to see the club make more of the Rags. You know, there's political bits and pieces there around the Athletic Club running it, and how much the Cardiff Rugby get involved in that. But certainly next season, now the Rags will probably be our only team in the EDC. I would like to see us properly pushing, like when the games are, you know, who's playing, come down and see the next generation of players, come down and see some of the best semi-pros in the league, and really make the most of that. And I just think there's bits and pieces more that they can do, you know, specifically around kids and stuff, open training sessions in half-terms, because, I mean, Feb half-terms always, and in the middle of the Six Nations, and there's usually an October half-term around the Autumn Internationals as well. So, opening that, because I think the Dragons do that quite well. They get people into a strudel neck a lot, and, you know, kids particularly meeting the players, and that's what they want to do. They want pictures with their fave players, and they want them to sign their jerseys, and all that sort of stuff. So, I would like to see us push that element a bit more. Obviously, they train a lot against other clubs as well this season. The Queen's came down the other day, and we do bits and pieces with the other ones. So, you know, why not open that up as well? We'll get people into watching that. But a lot of it's out of the club's hands, and the calendars are just a mess, and there's too many fallow weeks in the Six Nations. If you had very clear, you know, this is international, then we're back to, like, a European block, and then we're back to a URC block, it would be a lot easier. But, yeah, that's well above the play grade of people at the Arms Park. Anything you want to add to that, Cameron? To be honest, no. I think, as Dan says, on paper, it should become simpler next season with the EDC situation. Although it's not the ideal situation, I think it does make it a little bit more straightforward in that that partnership can be more exclusive and more obvious and publicised to a better extent. So I think that can work in a better capacity next season. As I say, the only other thing that I would have thought about, and I just came to the head, is, like, obviously you have Friendly, so, like, you know, men who have been playing Springboks, I think they've got New Zealand 15 next year, the New Orleans Internationals, you know, maybe just a big friendly game, even if it is with an apprenticeship load, something, you know, just trying to get someone through the door. The other one I think is, maybe make more, like, obviously the fandom stuff that we've had through the six nations. I've not thought of running WLU, and, you know, I think we did a bit of a test out of that. I'd have to double-check that, sure. But, you know, actually maybe, you know, when it is, like, a big game away, you know, obviously at the moment, the fact that, you know, travelling to these places is a bit hard, but why not make it as almost an away day, I think. So I remember the, I think it was for Bilbao, the final one, we ended up going to Cap, and watching the game there, and, you know, it was absolutely great. Yeah, and that's where it starts, so it just feels, you know, just turn the big screen around, you know, in the little courtyard outside the clubhouse, just open it up, just do something, you're not going to get anything, but I think, you know, if you're there, and you go to watch, you go and watch with all the people you normally go to watch, and, you know, let's have a few bites. So, I know that's just the mad ramblings of somebody who's probably just brain at work. Anyway, unless either of you gentlemen have any last comments, queries, or questions before we sign off? I don't think I have. All good. In that case, we will see you next week. Thank you, as always, for listening. Thank you both to Karwin and Dan for putting up with me, and for giving me some very valid insights. We will catch you soon. Thank you for listening to the Cardiff Central Podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Please subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen to us, as it really helps spread the word. You can find us on all usual social media channels, or email us on welshregionalrugbypod at gmail.com. And remember, whatever the question is, rugby is always the answer.