The What See Podcast - ep 2: "Slow Living"

Slow living is a movement where people choose to live a more balanced, meaningful life by slowing down and appreciating their surroundings and what they have. It can mean taking more time for self-care or stepping away from traditional goals like full-time employment or mainstream schooling. The pressure to constantly work and do different things can throw off our balance and harmony. Work is important, but it shouldn't define us completely. Everyone's definition of slow living may be different, but it's about finding a balance that works for you. Taking breaks and time for yourself is important, and slow living can be applied in different aspects of life, such as travel. It's about taking the time to truly experience and appreciate things rather than just rushing through them. Hello, and welcome back to the What We See podcast. I'm your host, Aidan, and today I'm here with Ricky. Hello. We're going to be talking about slow living today and work-life balance. Ricky, you want to hit us with that definition? Sure. So, this definition comes to us from Groovenow.com. Quote, slow living is a movement where people decide to live a more balanced, meaningful life through slowing things down and appreciating both the world around them and what they have. Some define slow living as simply taking more time for self-care, while others define it as stepping away from traditional goals like full-time employment or mainstream schooling in pursuit of a slower lifestyle, unquote. Yeah, this philosophy really resonates with me because I always feel such a pressure to keep doing a bunch of different stuff and keep working and all that, but I also like doing a lot of different things. I like talking with people, I like building stuff, I like doing art, I like travel, and all these different things don't really come together in one specific job. Absolutely, and that's, I think, what I like so much about this definition. It talks about a more balanced and meaningful life. Not necessarily any one of those things would be any kind of a problem on their own, right? Work is hopefully something that you either enjoy doing or you do so that you have the resources to do the thing you enjoy doing, but sometimes the balance of those things gets thrown off and we feel out of harmony with ourselves. I think this philosophy aims to try to just reset that balance a little bit. Before we get too far in, I'm going to probably repeat this throughout the podcast, this is a very individualistic kind of approach to life. We'll talk more about that later, but all these things that we're going to talk about, it's going to look a little different for every person because everybody's got their own balance, I think. Yeah, and like situations that they have to deal with and stuff. Absolutely. Do we want to start by just sort of talking about some of those pressures that people feel and why maybe this sort of living, like where it came from, what it was in response to? I guess we could, yeah, we're in the U.S. and we can talk about like the work culture here and like, yeah, it's kind of, I mean, it starts young in school, middle school and high school where you're told to kind of figure out what you like to do and then what you like to do and how that can turn into a job. Absolutely. And it's a funny thing because I heard this, it's like somebody will tell you, oh, I like painting. Oh, you could be an art teacher or like, yeah, I like talking to people. Oh, you'd be a radio host or like, oh, I like planning stuff. Oh, you could be a business person. So it takes like your hobby or your interest and then turns it into like a job, which is cool. But then the job sometimes isn't like your hobby or your interest, how it started out. Right. And it comes to define you in a way. I often think about this, even when you just when you meet someone for the first time in the U.S., the first question or almost always the first question you get asked is like, oh, what do you do? Yeah. And people, I think, mean well by this because it's a good thing to small talk about. It helps you get to know someone. But I always wonder like how our society might be different if instead of like, well, what do you do? The unspoken part for a living. Your first question was like, what do you do for fun? What do you do to make yourself happy? And then you're really getting to know someone actually at a deeper level. Yeah. Yeah. That that's really such a great point because because it shows so much things because it's like. Our culture, OK, first of all, we work a lot, we work for most of our lives, so it naturally defines us in this culture. We work for most of our lives doing one thing in theory for a lot of people anyway. Yeah. And then it's like, OK, you are defined by what you do. I like to ask, I like what do you do for what do you do for money? Kind of. Yeah. Sometimes sometimes I ask that I haven't done like what do you do for fun? And that would be better, I think. I say this as someone fully aware of having like the social anxiety of that first time I meet someone, I would probably hesitate to say it because it'll make you come off as a little eccentric, maybe, which as we'll get into a lot of the historical figures and other people associated with this philosophy, they were held to be pretty eccentric in their own time and even by people today. Yeah. This is definitely, I think, a philosophy that at first glance, it seems like it might not apply to everyone, but I think everyone can take something from it. Yeah. But yeah, I think our culture, whether it's, you know, you're in school, focus on getting X assignment done in Y amount of time, which is like really training you to do that on projects as an employee somewhere. I say this as a high school English teacher. That's my job. That's what I do for money. Yeah. Yeah. But but I think that, yeah, we were trained from a very young age that we should think of ourselves as people to be productive. We got to work on something. Yeah. And talking about jobs, so I'm trying to figure out what kind of life I want to live and what I want to do with my life kind of constantly, but I'm getting more of a sense of it. But a thing we talked about before is I think teaching is kind of works well with so living or works well with sort of stuff, not like you have a lot of struggles and work you have to do. But I think the job kind of lends itself to that. Oh, definitely. I think it's one of the few remaining jobs that exist that have these built in breaks, whether it's like holiday break or we're about to go on February break when we're recording this, the summer, obviously, like there are these times that are baked into my schedule where the school is saying to me and to my students, like, go home, be with your families, celebrate a holiday if it's a holiday and generally just like take time off, recharge. Yeah. Most jobs, especially in the U.S., just don't have that. I think it should be a standard, I think, like not the summer, but like obviously holidays and like time to spend with your family. Absolutely. I mean, there and we're going to get into this is the whole idea of work life balance, right? Like work is important in our lives, even if you're like us and you try not to let it define you, what you do is still important and it's still a big part of who you are. But you also, you know, I'm not just a teacher, I'm a friend, I'm a boyfriend, I'm a son, I'm a brother, a history buff, a Dungeons and Dragons player, a creative writer, all these other things. Right. Yeah. And I wouldn't want my work to preempt all of those things in such a way that I can't do them anymore or I can't enjoy them. Yeah. You know, you got to work to get the bread to do what you want to do. But you also hopefully want to enjoy a bit of what you do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's like different kind of routes you can take. I talk about this with some of my friends in college right now. They're going for engineering and like they kind of like engineering, but there's a lot of other stuff they like, too. But engineering pays pretty well. So you can do that and then not have to worry about making money on any of your other pursuits. Right. Versus the route that I'm kind of taking, which is like either make money from your passion or like do a bunch of different things. You have different lifestyles that all kind of help you. But yeah. Yes. I think this kind of going back to the definition for a second, the second half of it talking about how different people define it differently, I think it's interesting, too. Like it says in the definition, some take slow living to mean you just take more time for self-care. So being able to recognize like I need a day off today or I need a mental health day or, you know, I just need to sleep in or I'm not feeling well, being kind of aware of yourself and then taking care of those needs. Whereas other people, I mean, that's kind of smaller scale stuff that I think everybody can kind of use. Even if you are in a more fast paced environment, you can still recognize like you got to take care of yourself. Yeah. But then there's the bigger picture idea of moving away from these these quote unquote traditional goals, which are things like this full time employment or even like overtime employment, which for anybody listening who's not in the U.S., sometimes that's just an expectation here or, you know, mainstream schooling. And I say this like as someone who I went to a traditional four year college, I'm in graduate school right now to keep my teaching certification and you have not yet attended any college. So obviously, like we have different educational paths, but we're both doing theoretically things we like. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. No, I like that. Then that's showing that you can do it, implement slow living in different ways and stuff. Yeah. Like I would. I've done a lot of different jobs and tried out a bunch of stuff and I traveled a bit and we can bring up the example with travel. Yeah. It's like slow living with travel is maybe you stay in one place for two weeks or a month versus constantly hopping around from like five different countries in a span of two weeks to just like check stuff off a list and take pictures and stuff versus staying in one place for a month. And you you really get to know the place. You do some exciting stuff, but it's not like constant. Right. It's not just noise or it's not just activity or doing it just to do it or just to get the picture or to say you did it. Absolutely. If any of these concepts sound kind of familiar and you're maybe new to the idea of slow living, I think that's often because a lot of these ideas are not exclusively unique to slow living. This philosophy sort of borders on these ideas of like mindfulness and presence in the moment that are common in, say, like Buddhism and Taoism and other kind of philosophies and religions. But yeah, it's just specifically trying to apply it, I think, to that idea of work life balance. And like, how do you find some kind of center when everybody's expecting so much of you all the time? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, it's something like I'm like working on a project, I'm building something and I have to go to the bathroom. Yeah. And this is such it's such a funny thing. And I try to catch myself doing it. I'm like I'm like building and I'm like I'm holding having to go to the bathroom for no reason. It's like I'm not going to be able to finish this thing. But it's just like, oh, got to finish this. Got to finish this. Instead of just going to the bathroom or taking a break and eating lunch or drinking tea or whatever. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's actually I'm glad you brought up food because as you kind of told me off air before we started this, I think you were saying all of this originated in the slow food movement in Italy in the 80s and 90s. And that was kind of a revival of traditional methods of food making and using fresh good ingredients as a response to the huge wave of like fast food and kind of like cheap, quick, very satisfying in the sense of it's like fatty and salty and like feel good chemicals in your brain. But it might not really be good food. One of the big, I think, themes of slow living is that sometimes faster isn't always better or like more efficient isn't always better. Yeah. It's very much like a quality over quantity thing. So when it comes to eating your lunch every day, it's like, am I wolfing down this sandwich so I can get back to work and it's like fuel to keep me going? Or is it, you know, oh, this is actually a pretty darn good sandwich that I'm going to take the time and enjoy and, you know, look at the trees or eat or whatever. Or listen to something or watch something even. Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. I think there's not necessarily a wrong way to do it. But slow living just says, like, we all have a more meaningful experience if you take the time to really be present and to enjoy the things rather than just seeing it as like a means to an end. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, sometimes you got to work hard consistently and work fast or whatever. But a lot of times you don't. And a lot of times it's not even more productive to do that. Right. Yeah. Like you take the like in France, they have coffee, coffee shops and cafes and stuff where you take an hour lunch or like you really sit and drink your coffee. I was coming from New York City where you can just go into a deli and get like a nice cup of coffee for like a dollar fifty. And then I like to walk it as I walk down the street and stuff, which I like that, too. But then going to France and you like can't get it is really hard to get a coffee to go kind of. Yeah. Which, yeah, I like both. Sometimes you got to walk and get place and you can enjoy your drink on the way. And then sometimes it's very nice to sit down by yourself or with a friend and really enjoy that. Yeah. I know we're like really got food on the brain right now, but I think it's a good example of this kind of inaction. And yeah, I mean, it goes to show you could if you wanted from the from the business perspective, like the other side of it, the people owning the restaurant. I think in the US it's very much they feel a lot of pressure, like, oh, I got to get people in and out, in and out so I can maximize my profit versus I mean, again, and I'm not French, so I can't speak to French culture. But the vibe I've always gotten from like what you told me and I've heard from other people who've been to France and I've been to other European countries where this is definitely the case. Like they don't want to rush people. They want you to really enjoy the experience of like having their food sitting in their restaurant. And see, I wonder what that is. Like, why can't that be done more in New York City? Like I like Paris is an expensive city, right? Freaking expensive for a restaurant. So is New York. Right. So like I'm talking like the material conditions. Why could we do that in the US more? Yeah, I just like culture and it's just cultural or. Well, I think it's a lot of factors. I mean, but I would I agree with you. I think it could definitely be done more in the US. I think it would require a cultural kind of shift. Yeah. In a sense, all of the stuff that we're going to talk about today, all of this low living philosophy is kind of almost the countercultural way to live. Yeah. At least here in the US. Yeah. Because there's so much emphasis on like efficiency and profit and. Hustle. Hustle. Yeah, that's a great word for it. This is literally the opposite of that. It's saying the hustle is bad. It makes life kind of dreary and like monotonous. And this is saying that if you slow down the pace, then you're able to savor each individual experience more. Yeah. And then it's more meaningful or fulfilling or deeper. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think I'd like to transition. I have a couple of quotes here that I kind of pulled that I think were from different people who are either associated with slow living or they might not be. But I think the quote kind of speaks to it. You know, precursors. Yeah, exactly. And I think that, you know, some of these ideas, they can be applied in these different situations. And the one that I immediately thought of was Emily Dickinson supposedly once wrote, find ecstasy in life. The mere sense of living is joy enough. So like even before when we were talking about jobs and how sometimes people will use the money from the job to do the thing they really want to do. Yeah, that can work for people. But I think Dickinson's advice there is like, if you're enjoying what you're doing, then you kind of cut out the middleman. You know, you're not doing a thing that you don't enjoy so that you can then do a thing that you enjoy. Yeah, yeah. And it's because, like, even if you are say you're an art, your passion is painting and you're doing painting as a career. There's still parts you don't like. Oh, yeah. So there's like, yeah, it's like two things. It's like enjoying what you're doing because you like it and then enjoying what you're doing because of like your mindset or something like dishes or like stuff you have to do. Yeah, like responsibilities. Yeah. Or just chores or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So that's like kind of two different things. No, for sure. And I think if you can find any sense of joy or like fulfillment in the things that you have to do now, and I say this, I think I should check my privilege as someone who has the privilege to work in a job that I genuinely really enjoy. Being a teacher can be very tiring. It can be really demanding and it can be really hard. But I also feel like I make a huge difference in people's lives and I find that very fulfilling. And I get that kind of flow state when I'm in the middle of a lesson and I'm like seeing the gears turning in the kids heads and they're like getting whatever I'm, you know, they're picking up what I'm putting down and we kind of have that good conversation or whatever that in that moment, I'm not hyper aware of the fact that like I'm only here to get a paycheck. Right. Yeah. And I understand that not everybody can have that at every job. You know, I used to work in retail and I used to work other jobs where I definitely did not feel that way too often. Yeah. So, you know, you take the parts of this that you can apply to yourself and do the best you can with them, I think. Yeah. Good if I throw out another quote. Yeah, sure. So another one that we have here is, quote, adopt the pace of nature. Her secret is patience. Ralph Waldo Emerson. Hmm. Yeah, like. I'm being patient. I'm adopting. OK, let me see if I can get. So I'm building a tiny house or different different houses and stuff to maybe live in and to kind of support my slow living lifestyle. I've built one where I kind of bought all the lumber and I bought the windows from Home Depot and I kind of did it all quick because I wanted to get it done, which is which is a thing. But the next one I want to do, I want to be able to gather and find materials like old windows and doors and stuff and take the time to find the right place to them and find the right materials and not be rushing and just spend my money to buy the stuff. Right. Um, and nature kind of works like that with it's like trees and growing and stuff. Yeah, no, for sure. I think this reminds me a lot of we were hoping eventually to kind of tie in other philosophies that have this idea. This is like the concept of Wu Wei from Taoism, the idea of like effortless action. Yeah. And oftentimes that I think from from that tradition kind of is also an association with nature. It's the idea that like in nature, everything is kind of in harmony, like it has its place, it's got its niche and everything takes the time that it needs to do whatever it needs to do. Yeah, there's no rushing in nature. You know, the waves of the ocean come and they crash on the shore and then they pull back out. But they're not trying to get to somewhere. You know, it reminds me of the Alan Watts bit in one of his lectures where he talks about imagine how absurd it would be if we put on music, but then like sped it up because we just wanted to get to the end of it. Or just to hear the last crashing chord or something. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a good one. Or like I like one of my favorite comedy like tropes is putting innate or like nature gods and making them bicker. Yeah. Like neighbors do or whatever. And I'm just imagining like a wave being anxious of like, oh, I got to get I got to get to the shore. I got to get all the way up the beach. I got to do it or my mom's not going to be happy with me. And then and then, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I like that you brought that up because the comedy kind of reflects the truth in the sense that, you know, waves can get angry sometimes. You know, tsunamis are a thing. But even those and like earthquakes that they've all got their place, they exist and they happen. Or forest fires that like get rid of the underbrush or something. Right. Clear it out for new growth and new things to come. Yeah. Or, yeah. And to take like farming, land regeneration or whatever. If you graze too much on one plot of land, it will destroy the land. Or if you farm too much on one plot of land, it will take away all the nutrients from the soil. So you have to give it the time to regrow and get the nutrients back before you can use it again. Oh, yeah. And this isn't necessarily just a lesson from slow living. I think it applies to a lot of different ways of thinking. But like we can learn so much from nature. Yeah. And I know it's a bit of a cliche to say at this point, but like I really think that we would all be a lot happier and a lot healthier if we connected more with the natural world in some way. Yeah. And obviously, like for people who live in cities, that's going to look different than someone who lives in the countryside, etc., etc. But like, yeah, whether it's the bonsai tree that you really carefully, you know, curate on your desk and like help grow and prune and stuff, or, you know, you go walk in Central Park in New York City or whatever it is, finding the time to be one with nature or at least like in community with nature, I think is like so important. Yeah. Yeah. And whatever way you can. I really like going on walks in the city or anywhere and then looking up into the trees and seeing the silhouette of the branches in the sky. One of my favorite experiences with that was a couple of years ago, this is a bit of a tangent, so feel free to cut me off. Yeah. A couple of years ago when Raina and I went to Athens in Greece, a lot of the trees in the cities, or in the city there, have oranges growing on them and it's not seen as like an unusual thing. You just reach up. It's a public street. You pick the orange and you can just eat it. That's what's up. Yeah. You check them for bugs and worms or whatever. But like if it's good, you just peel it and eat it. And it's kind of nice because that felt like a little reward for doing that, looking up and seeing the sky and like, oh, there's a fruit here and it's delicious. That's awesome. Yeah. And not that every city could have that. I'm sure that's part of like being a Mediterranean climate or whatever. Yeah, my apples are something like different trees. No, exactly. Green spacing. Just wait till we do our solar punk episodes. Yeah. Yeah. Imagine like, yeah, there's a tangent. Just like every park like is an orchard or something in cities and then some pretty flowers and stuff, too. But if you just if you transfer it to more food producing plants, it would be pretty cool. No, totally. And I, you know, I can already immediately hear the reaction of like, oh, but what people would just go in and pick the apples for free. But it's like, yeah, like who cares? Yeah. There wasn't. It's like a public space. Yeah, literally a library or whatever. And if those apples happen to get picked by someone who needs them before I get there. OK, like if I really want an apple, I can go buy an apple, you know, like it's OK. Yeah. Kind of throw another quote that I think relates to this, but it's a little different. So this is definitely a precursor as opposed to an active, slow living guy. Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci. Oh, damn. OK, I like this one and I think it related because I think oftentimes we have this like it's almost like the bell curve meme where it starts out like, oh, this is really simple. It must not be good art. Yeah. And as you start to like you learn the skills or like you learn the techniques. Yeah. And then eventually you get to the end where you're like, yeah, but now I know all the rules so I can break them and I can kind of do whatever I want and really be creative. Right. Yeah. I think that kind of applies to life, too. I mean, whether you're talking about nature where, you know, hundreds of years ago, some people in the West were like, man, this nature is a wasted space. We should clear it all out and make room for corn or wheat or whatever. Industry. Yeah. But now we see like now like nature might be it might seem simple, but it's actually like really complicated and there's all these layers to it and all these interconnected relationships. I think life is kind of like that, you know, like we look at someone maybe who does slow living. They, you know, they go for an eccentric or maybe a different lifestyle. One of my favorite books of all time, The Razor's Edge by W. Somerset Maugham, one of the main characters sums up his life by being like, I just want to loaf. But he justifies it and he goes through this whole thing because by loafing, he's able to become spiritually enlightened. He can take the time to go and study under these people in India and like learn religion and philosophy and such. Cool. So I guess bringing it back to the quote, what on the surface might seem like a very slow to some people boring life becomes really beautiful and like sophisticated in its own way. Yeah, I think you can get a lot of enjoyment out of simple things if you have like the right mindset kind of. And it's like, like you don't need drugs or to go skydiving or whatever exciting activity. Yeah, sometimes like just walking around can be like exhilarating and like looking at all the different stuff because there's so much everywhere. Like you walk down the street and you can see like the stuff you've never seen before. A hundred different things, a lot of stuff going on. Oh, yeah, this will probably certainly not be the last time I mentioned him today because I'll do my best to limit myself. But in Henry David Thoreau's book Walden, probably the most exciting passage in that entire book is him watching these two groups of ants on the ground. And they're like, he describes them as being like locked in battle or whatever. Yeah. The average person, if they're on a hike through the woods or at Walden Pond, they might just totally miss that. But Thoreau took the time to stop and watch it. And then through that observation, he was able to use his talents as a writer to like make it this beautiful thing out of a small, everyday kind of thing. I think Thoreau had a really great sense of wonder that the world today is kind of lacking sometimes. I think maybe like a thing to help with slow living is maybe if you when you can step away from like, not like kind of like the world and like, well, say a city, say Times Square or say the subway. And if you can step away and kind of just watch everything happening, that could be really cool. But when you're in it, it's hard because you're like rushing through all the people, weaving through the people and stuff to get to where you're going. Yeah. But if you can step out from that or even be, be when you're in it, kind of be thinking like that. Yeah, that relates to, I think, what ego death for me, because when you have that really like self-important sense of like, well, I need to go here and my purpose is super important and like I need to hurry and like rush. That prevents you from observing and seeing all the cool stuff and seeing it for like this big, wonderful, interesting thing. Yeah. And it becomes more like, look at this crowd of people that's in my way, you know? Well, yeah, it's the big thing. It's like all this traffic, man. But then you are the traffic as well. No, exactly. And, you know, of course, because this teed me up for another quote, this one is from Thoreau. I'm talking about what you just said about being able to step away from it sometimes. He wrote, I have lately gotten back to that glorious society called solitude. Like he was very big on this idea that we often, especially in America, but in the West, we think of being alone or in solitude as this very sad thing or this very negative thing. Yeah. Like we always want to be around people. We always want to be interacting, doing things. Last time we talked about social media and I feel like that feeling of wanting connection is what drives that. Yeah. Yeah. We could we could talk about some hurdles or some cons of slow living, which is kind of one of those with with social media, FOMO or the fear of missing out. Yeah. Like if you're trying to slow live and like do your simple things and self care and stuff. Yeah. But then you see other people doing exciting things, whether they just tell you or whether it's on social media. Yeah. Like, oh, damn, I want to go skydiving. Exactly. But to counter, you know, Thoreau wrote in that same chapter of Walden where he talks about solitude. He I'm going to butcher the quote probably because I don't have it in front of me. But he talked about like in his house on Walden Pond that he built where he lived in the woods for two years. He said, I have three chairs. One is for solitude, two is for friendship and three is for society. And the idea was like it wasn't he was trying to be a hermit and like get away from people. Yeah. He liked having people come visit him and he would talk with them and host them. They'd have dinner. It'd be a whole thing. Yeah. But he was comfortable being in solitude. Right. And that's the main thing. Yeah. I feel like our society is so uncomfortable with both solitude and with quiet. Like we're constantly trying to fill a void, whether it's like the silence or the lack of an image. Like we want there to be something that's occupying our attention. And I think that it just creates a lot of noise and it keeps us from our thoughts kind of, you know. Yeah. From being bored and thinking of new stuff. Yeah. That relates back to social media where it's like I need some I need to be listening to something always like a YouTube video or like a podcast or something. Yeah. Absolutely. But when you know thyself as Socrates might have said. Okay there buddy. Well no, but when you know yourself and when you examine yourself and you, I guess, try to have a relationship with yourself. Like you would another person. Yeah. That helps you be non-judgmental about the struggles you're going through. Because oftentimes, I mean, I know this is true for me and I'm sure other people can relate to this. You're way more likely to give other people leniency or like understanding than you are. Like you're way harder on yourself. Yeah. And I think sometimes the solitude and being comfortable with being alone helps with that. Yeah. And yeah, trying to like you said, have a relationship with yourself as you would somebody else. Yeah. Yeah. I think I definitely think people should spend some people should spend more time by themselves and if they can become comfortable with that and then they can choose to be with people but not use it as like a clutch or something like that old thing. Like I feel so lonely when I'm but I'm surrounded by people like a party or whatever. Absolutely. And that being said, like with another pro kind of counteracting that is with slow living, it can actually help you have better community and have better relationships and stuff. Right. Because your your main focus isn't just your career or just your work or just what you do to make money. You can take the time and go for coffee with people, old friends and stuff or neighbors or you have the time to sit on the porch with a neighbor or whatever. Yeah. And you can form these better relationships or closer relationships. Absolutely. It kind of floors me how often like you'll have a day off from work, say, but you're still rushing to like fill it with things, whether it's, you know, making up for taking care of like the chores and just upkeep that you have to do that you didn't get a chance to over the week or you are desperately trying to fill in the hobby time that you missed out because of your work or whatever it is. It gets to a point often I feel like without us meaning to certainly, but you're so preoccupied or like desperate to try to fill all this time that then when it comes time to hang out with friends or loved ones, you're like you see it as another another responsibility. It's like another thing I got to do. I got to go see these people on the weekend. Even though then once you're there, if you're present in the moment, like you're going to have a great time, you're going to have fun. It'll make you happier and just feel that connection with people. Yeah. If you see it purely as like it's a time cost thing, then yeah, you're not going to enjoy it. Yeah. And yeah, you said hobbies, same with hobbies, like you're at work and you're like, and this is part of being in the moment, too. It's like, oh, yeah, if I wasn't working or like when I don't have to work, I'm going to do all my hobbies. Yeah. But then when you sit down to do your hobbies and you're like, shit, I don't want to do this. I'm like, yeah, I'm tired. Well, and I was just going to say, that's kind of the material conditions creeping in again. I think it's really hard. You're so tired. You worked 50 hours this week or whatever, and you want to do hobbies or you want to spend time with friends, but you're just too tired or you got chores or whatever. Right. Yeah. Since we kind of have already been talking about pros and cons, I'll just throw some more out there kind of as they come up to stick with cons, I guess, for a second or maybe challenges slash cons. Yeah. We were talking about that a bit and kind of how like flow living is hard in our current system or current culture or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. The difference between challenges and pros. Right. We already talked a little bit about having that fear of missing out, that sense of like, but if I slow down and take more time for fewer things, then I might not get to do other things that I might want to do. Or I won't be as secure or won't be high enough in my job or whatever. Right. But then once I'm high enough in my job, then I'll be chill and I can do my own thing. One of the other quotes that I had written down was from the Buddha. The trouble is you think you have time and that's kind of speaking to that. I think we often we delay our plans for the life that we wanted to have. Yeah. But when you do that, eventually it catches up with you and you're like, oh, shoot, you know, five years has passed. What have I been doing? You know, I've been working, I guess. Yeah. And that's fine if you were enjoying that or not all the time, but in the moment. Yeah. You can work towards stuff by still but still live in the moment or still do slow living, I think. And feel free to disagree with us if you do, because this might be a hot take for some people. I think it's good sometimes in life to do challenging things or to do hard things or to be sad even or to like be angry, to experience what we often call like negative emotions. I think that you need those experiences and those emotions to kind of give meaning to the happy, positive experiences, you know? Yeah. I also feel like there's a huge thing in Western and especially American culture where there's this huge pressure to be optimistic all the time and it creates almost like a false optimism or like toxic positivity where it's like, you know, I mean, even if you go up to someone and you're like, hey, how are you doing? That's like our way of saying hello. And the response is doing OK or doing good. How about you? Or not even that, just how are you? Yeah. How are you? How are you? Nobody says how they are. Yeah. I genuinely think, I mean, people do this in comedy all the time. It would make people so uncomfortable if you were like, how's it going? And they're like, pretty bad, actually. I want to do that more. Yeah. I mean, if it's your friend, you can be honest. Yeah. But, you know, and my friends and I at work will frequently do that. We'll actually tell each other how we're doing because we genuinely want to know. But unless you have that relationship, maybe you don't actually want to know and you're just being polite. Yeah. But for me, it's kind of fun to see if people will, how they'll respond to that. Yeah. And then maybe they will actually say how they're doing or confide in you or. Yeah. Well, and that's, you know, showing empathy. That's how you build real, genuine, stronger relationships. Like we said, that's a pro of slow living. If you're being genuine and actually honest with people, then you're really getting somewhere as opposed to just kind of superficial interaction for the sake of being polite. So I think, I mean, I try to do that. I try to do that more with strangers or people I don't know that much. Right. Even though it can be awkward. Yeah. But the Dutch kept messing with me about Americans about. And because I'll do it too. I'll be like, hey, how are you? Yeah. But then or like, I'll do it with a cashier, but then I won't be prepared for them to say, good, how are you? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm trying. And then the Dutch were like, yeah, man, you just say, how are you? And you don't actually want to know. Yeah. I'm glad we're getting into this because we didn't talk really much about there is that. I mean, we did a bit with the solitude thing, but this is also a really it applies to social interactions quite a bit. Slow learning. Yeah. Just this idea of you can have a really rich, fulfilling social life without it having to be crazy hectic. You know, like I have friends who do the hectic thing and they like book out hanging out a month in advance because their calendar is like so full. And it's like, that's cool. And with all of this, again, counterculture, like if you like the super busy, super active, super hectic. Yeah. Then that's fine. Then I'm glad that that works for you. And then and also sometimes you got to do what you got to do. Like you sometimes you have to plan. It's nice to do a spontaneous meetup. Oh, yeah. And sometimes it's so good. Like when Isaiah came over and he's just like he called me up and I'm like, hey, you want to do something? And then we went skating around the city and it was such a fun thing that we didn't plan. Yeah. But then sometimes you got to find stuff. Yeah. I think that there's a certain balance involved. Right. Because as a conscientiousness factor, you know, you don't want to just always turn up at someone's house on announce. I'd say, oh, once a week, it's going to send a text. Sometimes I don't want to always be Kramer. But sometimes here's a here's a genuine question for you, because I'm interested in how it applies to you. It's a little bit like pop cliche, whatever. Sure. Do you consider yourself an introvert or an extrovert? So is it the definition of do I get energy from being around people or do I get energy from being alone? I think so. You can define it however you want, but let's go with that, I think. OK. I so like. I feel like I would have said introvert back in the day or whatever or not too long ago. But now that I think about it and from the energy standpoint, it's part why I want to do this podcast more. It's because I get so much energy and I enjoy it so much talking with people. Yeah. I think like people are intellectual or whatever. Yeah. What was it called? Exploratory conversation with people. And I think it does give me energy. That being said, I spent a lot of time like I lived cabin in the woods for six months or like. Yeah, your tiny house was very thorough. I liked it a lot. And I like living. I think it's good to know yourself and live by yourself. But and now I'm living with roommates and that's that's really nice to have people to talk to. Yeah. Yeah. I think just not as a clutch is a crutch. It's good. Yeah. Thank you. I was just curious. Yeah. No. Yeah. I think I'm an extrovert who likes alone time. Yeah. I think there's no scientific way to measure this, but I definitely think everybody's a bit of both depending on the situation. Yeah. It's a bit like you said, it's a bit. Whatever. At this point, it's like the old left brain, right brain thing. Like, I don't there's no real scientific evidence for that. It's just a fun pop thing. It's like Coke or Pepsi or whatever. Gives people something to talk about. What about you? Good question. I feel like I had the opposite kind of experience, if if only because I felt like when I was younger, I was a very extroverted person. I like was president of my drama club in high school. Did you get energy from it? Yeah, definitely. I love to like just interacting with people and like joking around, like hearing what they thought about stuff and all this stuff. And as I get older, I find myself like drawing strength from my alone time, I think. And then I feel the same as you. I enjoy the company of other people quite a bit. Yeah. And especially the people I love. And I like interacting with them still. But I do notice myself getting a little more of it's burnt out is the right word. But just like I need that time by myself to recharge and think. You know, when it comes to especially like creativity or like things that I'm working on, I need quiet and like private time and space to work out things like I like brainstorming with other people. Right. Yeah. Yeah. When it comes time to actually like make it in the thing. Yeah. I kind of like to just be by myself and be left alone. Maybe that's because I'm a creative writer and that's how my process works. What about decision making? That's a good question. Good question. Because for me, like I'm figuring stuff out and I talk to you, I talk to Reina and other people. But at the end of it, like I know all the factors and I know more of what I want. Yeah. And people can give me sound advice from their perspective. Yeah. But it's it's me. Right. So I got to think about it and not by myself. Right. I it's almost like in your brain, you're like you've got the president who has to make all the decisions. And then you got your cabinet of advisors or whatever. Yeah. And those can either be different parts of yourself or your fellow friends and whatever. Yeah. And the cabinet advises you to give you good, you know, whatever they get, insight and perspective. But ultimately, like your president still has to make the decision, you know? Yeah. Because it's like that. So we'll go with the president. So, yeah, like the defense, the military, the military. You got economic. You got, yeah, whatever. And cultural minister who's like, have fun. Yeah. Or like happiness person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, that's a good thing for me because it's like I have people who. So I do I do building and trades and then I know people who have done trades for a while. So they'll give me advice. But their advice is catered around wanting to do the trades or doing the trades for 40 years or whatever. Right. But then I was like people I've traveled with and with very unconventional lifestyles. Yeah. And then I have their perspective and then I have my own stuff. So it's like and yeah, my mom, which is kind of she's kind of like a mix of both. Yeah. Which is nice. But yeah, you have to take all those and delegate it like right brain or left brain delegated or just whatever feels right. Yeah. To make a decision. I'm glad you brought that up with like people being a mix of these different ideas and things, because I thought about that with my dad, too. He's one of the first people who introduced me to Thoreau and he was talking all the time about how much he loves this living thing. Yeah. But then it's really funny. He's also. Yeah. He's literally that's his job. He's the vice president of sales for a company. And he talks about, you know, at a certain point, you don't own your things. Your things own you. Yeah. Now buy some of my things or whatever. But I really respect that my dad for having that perspective of like he likes simple things that he really likes. Yeah. And that's what he gets his happiness from, I think. Yeah. You know, he would rather have a good, simple home cooked meal than, you know, going to like Delmonico's or like a fancy steakhouse or whatever. And I think that's pretty cool. Yeah. And that that also shows how it can you can do slow living in a bunch of different ways. Right. Like you don't have to be in a cabin in the woods farming your own stuff and gardening and stuff. Right. You can be it's harder in different search of situations or like the culture is really pushing you to hustle and grind. Yes. Like we were talking about it. So if you're a stockbroker or business person in New York, it's harder than if you're living in a small town or you're working at a coffee shop or whatever. Right. One of the we're still talking kind of pros and cons, I think one of the pros, though, is regardless of like what your circumstances are, if you can take parts of this and incorporate it into your lifestyle, you're probably going to have less stress and anxiety just because you're not chasing something always. Yeah. You know, everything you do, or at least as much as you can, you know, like Thoreau advises deliberately, you understand everything is kind of in its place and there's a time and a season for everything. The Bible talks about that, too, just to bring in some of my Catholic upbringing. But no. Yeah. Like there there is a season for everything. There's a time for you to grow and learn. There's time to work. And there's a time to have fun and unwind and relax and just taking things in their stride and not just rushing to get to the end of the thing all the time. And yeah, relating us back to nature, like the seasons, like you said, like winter, maybe you're more introspective and more creative doing stuff inside or like hanging with friends. And when spring hits, you like get outside, you exercise more, maybe do a bit more, maybe a bit more social. So yeah, it relates to nature in that way, too, for sure. Yeah. No, not to stay with the Bible thing, but there's a there's a quote that Jesus says in the Bible about like, notice the lilies of the valley, like they don't sow, like they don't plant anything. They don't work. And yet still they thrive, kind of. And he's not saying, obviously, that like people should never, ever have to do work ever. Yeah. Like sometimes work is a part of life, but he's just making the point that like it's not everything. Yeah. You know, like they aren't in a rush to go make a bunch of money at the marketplace. They're just flowers and they're happy to be beautiful and chill in the wind and like live according to their nature. Yeah. Again, you could personify like an anxious personality, hustle culture onto a flower. I got to grow, I got to grow the biggest, got to grow the biggest so they pick me and I make the most money. Got to attract the bees, got to get the most pollen, do it, grind. I can't imagine like the Manosphere, Andrew Tate, flower, got to attract the most bees, man. I'm not a, oh God. I think, you know, we do talk about how this is a kind of a countercultural thing. I think a lot of that has to do with kind of like you said before, it's a bit of an anti-capitalist, anti-consumerist kind of mindset. Yeah. Whereas, you know, consumerism says, hey, buy this product. It will make your life easier, more convenient, faster, let you be more productive. I would say sometimes that's really nice. Yeah. To go to bat for consumerism for one minute here, the only positive thing I'm going to say, none of us in this household like doing dishes, really. We make the most of it and we try to be positive, you know. We don't have a dishwasher. Yeah. Well, we are the dishwasher. We don't own a dishwasher. But, you know, and we try to make the most of it. We'll listen to a thing or we'll talk or like do something with it. Yeah. But it's work. It's a thing you got to do. Laundry was a huge one. Laundry by hand takes so long. No, absolutely. So it's not to say that these things are all bad. Yeah. But, but take food, for example. If efficiency was always the best, then we would just eat microwave dinners for every meal every day. Yeah. And oftentimes, as anyone knows who's had a TV dinner or whatever, it is not always the best food. Yeah. Or like you could take like meal prepping. So like you chop up broccoli, you chop up, chop up like kale or whatever you're making. Chicken and brown rice or whatever. So that's productive and it's productive and easy and simple, but it's still not. You're missing out on so much. It is healthy and it's not a TV dinner, but you miss out on so much. Yeah. It's cooking. I don't know. I guess. And that's it. Again, perspective, because I'm sure there's someone listening to this, maybe who's like, but I like cooking, you know, I genuinely get like, oh, yeah. I mean, I do. Yeah. And I do, too. And some people don't care. Maybe they're happy if they're actually happy eating steamed broccoli, chicken and brown rice. If they're happy with that, that's great. And if they don't get enjoyment out of food and it's just like food is fuel. Right. That's cool. And then they can be deliberate about something else. Right. So it frees up free time for them to do stuff they do like. And that's cool. And this is part of how I could I think anyone can take something from this. You know, maybe maybe you have to decide the things that you really can afford to be deliberate about and really want to be deliberate about. And then, you know, you balance that out with the responsibilities and things that you just have to do and you try to find a way to make them enjoyable. But if you can't, you know, you get through because that's part of life. So like we said, sometimes in life, you've got to face those difficult or like challenging things and hopefully grow or learn from them. But even if not, it's just part of life. I like you said this off the air, I think, before we started recording it, but I really liked when you said that at the end of the day, like slow living, it's a philosophy. It's not like a cure all for all of the problems that one faces. Yeah. And like any other philosophy, it can help you understand your life and live a more fulfilling and meaningful life. But regardless of what philosophy you subscribe to, it's not going to by itself solve your problem. Yeah, it's more just like a way of looking and thinking about the world. Yeah. Which is kind of like this podcast. The What We See podcast. I got it. Yeah, go for it. So we're talking about very like philosophies and they're individual, like you use them to better your life or like have a better outlook. Right. Stoicism is a very practical philosophy. Very much so. And I would kind of say slow living is too. Like, yeah. Yeah. Like it's part mindset, part environment, part stuff you set up. Yeah. Like your routines and your habits. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because regardless of what your philosophy is, almost all of them will tell you, like, you need to have discipline in order to do the thing. Yeah. Very few of them, at least the good ones, I think will say like, yeah, this is easy. Just do this. I feel like if your philosophy is telling you that if you do it, it's easy. They're like trying to sell you something. It's either an MLM or a cult. Yeah. What about. Yeah, like even like hedonism, you have to set stuff up kind of so you can do that. Yeah. I mean, like most Epicureans who aren't even hedonist, they say like life is about pleasure, but it's about responsible pleasure almost. Yeah. We're planning on doing an episode listeners at some point about Epicureanism versus Stoicism. Yeah, sure. Not as far apart as you might think. But yeah, like even with that, like you're saying, you still have to have certain things in place so that you can enjoy the things, you know. Yeah. Systematic slow living. Yeah. Just in recognition of we all have responsibilities to each other, to our fellow human beings, you know, being slow living. I'm glad we're finally saying this. I don't know how we missed this yet, but slow living does not necessarily mean like laziness. It's not like necessarily doing nothing. It's really hard. Yeah. It's just saying that, you know what, sometimes it is OK to just do nothing. Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. It's not advocating for it all the time, but it's saying, hey, if that's what you feel like doing right now and it's not hurting anyone, then yeah, let's do that. Yeah. Yeah. There's an interesting thing with disciplined and going with the flow and what feels right. Right. And for me, it's always like a constant thing, though. Because it's like sometimes you really don't want to do the thing. Yeah. And it's knowing when to listen to that versus having your discipline or something else kick in. Yeah. And you do your thing and then you feel better. So, yeah. So take like two situations. You wake up and you don't want to get up and work out or whatever. Yeah. You know, this could be because you're feeling lazy that day and you're feeling lazy that day and you don't want to do it. Or it could be like you're sick or like you're really sore or something. Right. And your body's telling you or your mind is telling you that you shouldn't work out. And it's really hard because they can feel the same. It's like, oh, I don't want to work out. But why? Kind of. Right. Yeah. And discipline is not necessarily like always doing the thing you don't want to do. Like you can be a disciplined person who still takes breaks. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of the time people who I don't think there's a lot of people out there criticizing slow living. They're not saying it's like awful. But I think regular or I guess traditional cultures response to slow living. Yeah. Would be like, but why would you do that when there's so much to do? There's so many things to see and so many, you know, whatever. Yeah. More, more, more all the time. Yeah. It could be well-meaning. Yeah, literally. I think most people go into giving people advice with good intentions. I don't think there's too many people out there who are at least, you know, on the ground level, individual people being like, hey, you should work hard. And behind the scenes, they're actually like, I've just, you know, chained you to a miserable life at a nine to five or whatever. I think for the most part, people are brought up to think that way. They think you have to work hard to succeed, which means you'll be happy. Yeah. I think slow living is really about reexamining what does success look like? Yeah. You know, does it mean having the most money and having the most, I don't know, things and stuff or is success more measured by how fulfilled are you? Yeah. Are you able to spend as much time as possible doing the things you want to be doing? Yeah. Yeah. And it's so hard because it's like you do have to have your material conditions met and a level of comfort and stuff. But then past that, it's kind of what it's talking about more, I feel. I think so, too. I mean, it speaks to I think we brought this up in the previous episode where if not, maybe just talked about it off air. The studies have shown that, you know, the amount of material wealth you have, money, possessions, whatever, it does positively affect your happiness up to a point. And usually that point is just after you have all of your needs met and you're like you go from beyond that to like being comfortable where it's pretty clear that those are not going to ever really be in danger for you. You got a dishwasher. Yeah, exactly. But once you've hit that point, your happiness, as you know, the X axis, you continue to increase the money. The Y axis starts to plateau. You don't see a continued corresponding increase in happiness. Your third car. You can't take it with you, you know. But my point in bringing that up is just to say that I completely agree with your point that obviously we're not advocating like don't meet your material needs or like it's easy or whatever. Right. We're just saying that if you can do that, then everything beyond that is and should be up to you. Yeah. And it would be cool if that society encouraged that. Yeah. And some do more so than the US. Yes. Which, yeah, we're going to talk about that. Like, like there's talk of four day work weeks and stuff. If you're salaried in like a bigger company, if you work, you work four days a week, you and studies show that you're about the same amount productive as you would be at five days a week because either you get worn out or like you're not doing as much work or there's nothing to do, you might as well go home. Right. Yeah. I mean, how many times I'm sure people listening to this can relate to the idea that like you are not in flow state at your peak level of efficiency all day, every day at work. My God, you know, yeah, that would be unsustainable. And I yeah, I like that we're seeing more of those experiments toward that because I think we are seeing just an absolute epidemic of like burnout. It's, you know, the stress levels that we see in the anxiety levels that we see. Yes, I think some of that could probably be chalked up so we're more able to diagnose people now and like people are more likely to seek help, which is great. But I also definitely think that we just live in a very hyper productive, hyper capitalist kind of society here in the U.S. right now where, yeah, you constantly feel that pressure to be productive and to conform, you know, thinking big picture with slow living. You can apply it to major life decisions. Even, you know, we talk a lot about the day to day idea of slow living, but like there's pressure on some people to get married or have kids or, you know, yeah, like work at a big career and make the big bucks rather than like volunteering or being a part of a club or like a community, you know. Yeah. And not that again, you can't get any kind of fulfillment out of that. Some people like the hustle. They like the grind. That's what they live for. Yeah. But I think a lot of the time people get pressured into that rather than doing it because they want to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For me, I think about that a lot because there's a lot of jobs I would like, but not because of what I'm doing, but because of like the lifestyle it kind of has. Yeah. Which lends itself to more slow living or more freedom. Yeah. Or doing a bunch of different stuff. Right. Because for me, I enjoy building and creating different stuff. I do electrical and carpentry and stuff and design. And I enjoy all that. But when I am like forced to do it all the time for a profit to meet deadlines, it takes away from it. So. Yeah, I really like building and they can make decent money, but I don't know if I want to do that for my whole life. Right. So I've been recently thinking about like shop shop teacher or trades teacher at a school because it's still building and it's still doing stuff and I can make cool lesson plans and stuff. But then the lifestyle lends it to more for something I would like. Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting because I, you know, we're doing this whole spiel about how it's OK to not like have everything planned out and figure out. I've been living pretty much big, long term, big picture on the same life plan that I made years ago. You know, I graduated high school. So crazy. I was like, I'm going to get my bachelor's degree. I'm going to work for a while and then I'm going to get my master's. I'm currently on the final stage of that plan. I'm currently working on the master's. But there's this is not on the paper, but there's a Dwight Eisenhower quote I really like where he says, I've often found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable. And he was talking about it from a military perspective, obviously. But like the idea that in life, it's good to think about what you want. Yeah. To make a kind of plan, have goals and things you're kind of working toward. But then having the flexibility to discard the plan if it's not working. The air shift. Yeah, I think people get part of why people struggle to maybe implement slow living is it seems to conflict with some of the just desires that they might have, you know. But I want to do this, but I want to, say, buy a house or if you can afford that or but I want to move to a new city or a new town. And so there's intense feeling of I got to do this right away. Yeah, I think it's OK to take your time and like one one step at a time, one day at a time, you know. Yeah, I've felt that in the past and now with travel because I do like to travel slow and stay in a place for a while. But there's so many places I want to go and every place is so cool and stuff. But I did do a few trips and then not that I got it out of my system, but I'm more at peace now. I'm like, OK, when it's like, oh, yeah, I definitely want to go here. I definitely want to go everywhere. But like, you know, we'll come kind of or like it happens when it happens type thing. There's no like rush or bucket list or thing. Nature's secret is patience. Did you write that? I wish. No. And yeah, that's that idea that in exertion, you know, you're just going with the flow, but you're still being deliberate about what you're doing. Yeah. So it's so hard to wrap your head around that. Yeah. Because it seems like. Say what you just said. So this idea of the way concept, this in exertion, inaction, effortless action, how still being deliberate. Yeah. How can so like Taoism here with the here with the Tao? Yeah. You're following the way you're following the river. Yeah. You're letting the river pull you. Right. But how do you control it at all? You know, it's a very good question. Or how do you try? Yeah, I think in it. So I think it's a paradox what we're talking about here. And this is first of all, this is very above my pay grade, but this is going to be take my best stab at it. Yeah. I think in this concept of way, you are still being an actor doing things. Yeah. But it's effortless because it's in tune with what nature expects or like what's in harmony with the things around you. Yeah. This came out there. It's good, though it is. But I think it's like you said, there's the tension at the heart of slow living. It's this idea of how do I go with the flow, but still make the decisions, the active choices that I want out of my life. Right. And I think this comes back to the path to enlightenment is as narrow as the razor's edge. You know, you've got to walk that path. And it's a balancing act of making deliberate choice and not letting yourself just be pulled totally by the current, because then you're not living your life for yourself. You're living it for everyone around you. Then you're right back to the culture that all of this is supposed to be a counterculture to. You're letting the pressure and the social expectations tell you what to do. Yeah, that's I like that. But that's funny that like razor's edge is that stressed me out. It's like, oh, you have to do the perfect balance of slow living versus whatever. Yeah. And I don't like. Yeah. Well, again, I don't mean for it to be scary, but I think that quote, the reason that that comes from one of the Vedas, these Hindu texts originally, I think. Oh, yeah. But the point of it, I think, is supposed to be that, like, if you really seek enlightenment or this heightened state of living, it's a difficult path. But yeah, once you put in the work, it can be made easy through like discipline. Yeah, I definitely doing inner work and doing. Yeah, my work is very difficult. Yeah. Or takes a lot of work. Yes. I think about, you know, if you again, we're out into the weeds now, people, but please bear with us. You think about like meditation. The whole point of that, I think, is you're bringing your mind to the present moment and you're focusing on just like your breathing or, you know, the thoughts and the sounds that are around you, but not holding on to them and just letting them go. Yeah. The, you know, 10 or 15 minutes, however long that you take to get into that meditative state takes this intense focus to remove distractions and to sending yourself just on your body in the present moment. Imagine doing that all the time and how much mental work that would take. I think it would be very difficult. But the thing with meditation, you do that enough and then you start going into it more naturally without the work. Like when you're doing the dishes, you get in the present moment or whatever. Yeah. And I think we see bits of that at work or in our hobbies when we enter that like flow state that we talked about earlier. That's you almost like achieving your zen where you're just you are one with the action that you are trying to do. And I think you're right. If you do it enough, it becomes easier. It becomes more natural. And that's the effortless action piece where you're still living deliberately. You're still making your choices. Yeah. But you're not having to fight quite so hard all the time to make that happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like like stuff happens like I do some fun stuff and that's cool. But I forget like what happens when like how I got to that point. Yeah. But I did make calls and set up stuff, but then I forget about it. But then it happens and then it's just like, oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like a lot of the time you remember the thing more than the planning that made the thing possible. And that's probably good. You don't want to necessarily think of the work that you put in. Yeah. But maybe it's good while you're doing it to realize that like this might be annoying right now or might be hard work, but it's going to enable me to do a cool thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And one thing I do is like I send text messages or calls out to people like either just reconnecting or asking them for a favor or seeing if we can meet up or whatever. I just send those texts or whatever. And sometimes something happens from them and sometimes something doesn't. But when it does happen, oh shit, that was cool. Yeah. And there's no harm if it doesn't. Right. That's my mindset when I'm sending it. Yeah. Yeah. If anything, people are usually, I think, just like pleased that you thought of them. And, you know, or they're just busy with their shit. Yeah. OK. I have two. I have two things. So you're floating down the river analogy. So you're floating down the river with the dhow of life. You can't paddle up the river against it. What you do is you stick out like your hand and then the hand is like a rudder and it pulls you in the direction you're still going down the river. But it pulls you to a right through this way. I like that. Yeah. I thought that was pretty good. Yeah. That's a really good analogy. Thanks. And then way back, we were talking about dishwashers and laundry, laundry machines, scrubbing laundry takes so much water and so much soap and so much time by hand. So those are really cool. But hanging up your clothes on a clothing line doesn't take that much work and it uses so much less energy. Yeah. And it's kind of peaceful. Like, I feel like you can get zen hanging up your laundry. Yeah. And usually you get this really nice smell and there's like fresh air kind of element to it. Absolutely. So there's there's the balance part of that. Yes. Like, yeah, it would take so long to clean all your clothes by hand. Yeah. And it doesn't use a lot. It doesn't use heat. Yeah. So it's worth it versus dryer. Maybe not. Maybe this is just the building on that point. Maybe it's just anguished teacher at me. But I would love if we saw some kind of a comeback of like slower forms of communication, like people writing letters or just these more in-depth kind of explorations of ideas. Because, yeah, there's obviously texting is very convenient and it's very quick. And it I think it eases people's social anxiety in a lot of ways. But it's hard to really communicate everything you're trying to say. And just a little quick message that you send out to someone. Yeah. Like it's not like sometimes text paragraphs work. But I feel like a lot of the time for like a deeper emotional conversation, it's not the right tool. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any other thoughts about slow women? I know we we talked a lot about the philosophy and we tried to, I think, give some practical examples and make it more concrete for people. I see the practical side of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it is. I feel like it is a little practical, but yeah, it is. A philosophy. Yeah. And philosophy, you know, like any other philosophy, it's as useful to you as you see use in it. You know, as we said before, this thing alone, it's not going to solve any of your problems immediately. It's not going to like change your life unless you live by these ideas and you incorporate them and you do something with them. And all of our experiences are subjective. So people's experience with this is also going to be subjective. Yeah. And yeah, it may take a lot of time before you see some of the results or stuff. Yeah. OK, cool. You got anything else? Just my last thought, I guess, would be if you are interested in any of these ideas and you made it to the end of this podcast and you're like, OK, where could I start? I think slow living is really related in a lot of ways to like simple living. Yeah. And just start questioning things, start asking yourself, like, why do I want to do this or like, why am I doing this or what is it that I actually want? Yeah. And what do I really need? Yeah. And I think that those are not easy questions to answer and they take time and effort and energy. But I think the benefit that you get long term from taking the time to ask and then answer those questions is so much better than not asking them and just kind of letting the river pull you, you know? Yeah. So that's my homework for you listeners. If you're interested in slow living, ask yourself what's really important in your life. Oh, I had a thought and then I lost it. No, that's good. OK. And we're back. Yeah. Sorry. I just had to think about my thoughts. What I came to was introspection and slow living encourages introspection because you have time to think and think about what you really want and be more deliberate with how you do things. Yeah. It all comes back to knowing yourself. Yeah. And I think that's an important thing for people to do. And just, yeah. What do you want? What do you like to do? Yeah. What do you actually enjoy? Because that's like a tricky thing because it's like you've done something all your life. So, oh yeah, I obviously like doing this thing. I've done it for so long or whatever. Yeah. But do you actually like it? And what do you really enjoy? But yeah, I just think introspection in general is really important. And slow living can encourage that or help you do that. And it's also always OK if your answer is genuinely a yes and you don't want to make a change. That's fine, too. But at least you're thinking about it and you're not just saying it to cover up how you feel. Yeah, yeah. And that's, yeah. Don't be passive in how you live your life, kind of. Exactly. OK. That's pretty good. Thanks for listening, everybody. I think that's about doing it for slow living. Yeah. Thank you. This is the What We See podcast and see you next time. Adios.