The What See Podcast - ep 1: "Social Media"

Social media, according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, refers to electronic communication platforms where users create online communities to share information and personal content. It has both pros and cons. Some pros include the ability to learn new skills, connect with others, and provide a space for marginalized groups. It also offers entertainment and self-expression opportunities. However, it can be distracting and negatively impact attention spans. Many teenagers use social media constantly, with YouTube being a popular platform. The quality of content can suffer when creators prioritize views over quality. Despite these challenges, social media has democratized content creation and provided opportunities for anyone to be a creator. Hello and welcome back to the What We See podcast. I'm your host Aedan and today I'm with my good friends Fran and Ricky. Today we're going to be talking about social media. It's a pretty big topic and it kind of affects us all in different ways. Ricky, do you want to hit us with the definition just to start out? Sure. So according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, social media refers to forms of electronic communication such as websites for social networking and microblogging through which users create online communities to share information, ideas, personal messages, and other content such as videos. Cool. Yeah, I think the main thing is the users share and create the media. Right, exactly. So traditional media. Yeah, so you have, say you want to do something on your own, maybe learn a new skill, play guitar. If someone uploads videos of them doing that, sharing that skill, it's easy to learn more about what you want to do. Just like if you go to a subreddit, you can do r slash guitar and they have lots of tips for you to learn how to play guitar. Yeah, and that's a really cool pro of social media on YouTube and then Reddit. You can learn how to do anything. Anything, that's awesome. Yeah, to your point before, Aedan, about how it affects a lot of people, this is a stat from Pew Research Center. According to this poll that they conducted of 750 13 to 17 year old teens, according to this poll, 45% of those users are online, quote, almost constantly. And 97% of those teenagers use at least one social media platform. Now that might be YouTube, might be Facebook, Instagram, any of the other ones. Yeah, and you said around like 50% is on constantly? 45%, according to this one poll. Did it say what that is? Like nine hours or? I believe it was at least nine hours a day of like, not maybe not constant full attention. Yeah, but definitely like they're checking it. What I could see as it is like, okay, you do this thing, you do this task or whatever, then you're to your phone. You do this other task, you're to this phone. Yeah, well, and I think that's kind of what they mean by it. Yeah. And anecdotally, I can kind of relate to that even as something like texting. When I was a kid, and I had just gotten my first cell phone, I was in high school when that happened. And I used to text people and have like a full conversation. And at some point, the conversation would stop. And they'd be like, Alright, have a great day. And then like, I would stop, we wouldn't text until something else came up. Now it's like you just you message back and forth. And if I did that, I feel like people would find that weird. Like if you just send it? Yeah. So you really say goodbye over text. Because it's like, whatever, dude, you know, we're just talking and then we're not and then we are like, it is weird to have like a very clearly defined beginning and to attack the conversation. I feel like, yeah, I never thought about that. Neither did I actually, that's really cool. Yeah, no, and I, when I again, when I was younger, it didn't feel as weird, because it was just a kind of way of talking. Yeah, because that goes back to like, my, like, ideal way to use social media is as a tool. So like, when you need it, you take it out and use it, and then you put it back. And that's like a phone call. And that's maybe like how you use the text. Yeah, no, absolutely. And my thinking for that, I mean, we talked about one of the pros of social media, and I know we'll get more into pros and cons in a minute. Yeah. But as a con, I definitely find it very distracting sometimes. And as a teacher or for yourself? Or both? Oh, both. Just in my personal life, like it's the science saying that it can disrupt sleep or expose people to a lot of like, kind of more negative thinking about themselves. It's all very true. We'll get into that. But I definitely see it. Yeah, as a teacher, too. I see the lack of attention span and the constant kind of refocusing that's required just to get through like even a basic, like school task, you know? Yeah. I have another anecdote of me as a student. So I'm always on my phone, which is pretty bad. I'm trying to reduce my hours. But after I watch a video or something and I have to go to class, I always feel super drained before I go to class. And even during class, it's super hard to stay focused on what I have to do. And of course, that results in me having to spend way more time in the afternoon trying to remember what I was taught in the class. And that's just way more time spent. And it's a really bad cycle of just binging on social media and then having to repair the damage of the lost time from studying. What social app, social media do you use most for that? YouTube is very big. And sometimes I get stuck with YouTube Shorts. Yeah. I really wish they didn't. Like, okay, keep it on. Keep the Shorts on TikTok. Yeah. And that would, like, that's not great. But at least you still have YouTube and that's like more longer form content. Like even before Shorts, videos kept getting shorter, like five minutes. Like you can't watch it 15 minutes. Yeah. You know, even Amazon has Shorts now. It's so crazy. I guess customer reviews or something. It's about them trying to control everything. Yeah. There's this app, I think I was told by my friend about it. It's called YouTube Revenge. So you can watch YouTube with no ads. And I think you can also eliminate Shorts in that. Wait, is it not YouTube Revenge? I don't know. I think it's different. Revenge. Okay. Revenge. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. There's also this one, I know nothing about, but I've heard about it. It's called Be Real. And apparently it's like some YouTube creators made it. I'm pretty, I have actually no idea. But it was more like longer form content, less fake stuff, which could be cool. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And that's, I think, you know, you hit the nail on the head with like, when you're making content that's exclusively like clickbait or just trying to get as much engagement as possible. The quality of the content is inevitably going to suffer. Cause you're no longer like driven primarily by making good quality content. You're, you're driven by views. Exactly. Yeah. I really hate seeing like all those Mr. Beast-esque looking videos where like, it's just like someone doing this to your face. Like, I don't know, like I tried the world's spiciest food and tried not to die, not clickbait, stuff like that. Yeah. It's always funny when you sign out of your Gmail or whatever and you see the normal YouTube feed without all your, your inputs. Yeah. It's all that. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We should do, we should start with the pros and cons. Yeah, for sure. So we'll start with, I think, pros. We've already hit on a couple of cons. So maybe bring some more positivity in. One of the pros that I wanted to hit on for sure is social media and being online in general provides another space for young people to create these like online identities and personas, communicate with others and build social networks. And I think that's especially important for like marginalized groups like the LGBT community and stuff. They can often be like excluded from these typical, maybe real world social spaces. So in moving online, they find a space that they can create for themselves to just kind of exist and be who they want to be. Exactly. Yeah. You can show yourself or how much or how little of yourself you want to show. Right. And it's anonymous. So that's the thing. And then also just bridging the geographical gap between maybe you're in a small town and you have no groups that are like you or interested in the same thing as you, that you can connect with them, which you couldn't before. You would have to move to like a big city or whatever. Right. Exactly. From a like accessibility standpoint too, digital spaces often have fewer physical barriers of entry that physical spaces do. So if you have a disability or some kind of long-term medical issue, there are certain physical spaces that may be challenging for you to physically get to and participate in the same way versus online. Not that everyone's like equal online, but it's more of a level playing field maybe to access those spaces. Yeah. Yeah. And then you can get, so another point is you can get a lot of really good advice online. If you were getting marginalized or say you have a really bad food allergy restriction, you want to have a goal like a fitness, building muscle or getting better at running. You can usually find good videos of people telling you, oh, this is where you should eat. This is how you can optimize your training and stuff like that. Yeah. Like if you have no mentors or no people doing what you're trying to do. Yeah. Something so specific that you just can't find it within the space you're at right now. Yeah. Yeah. Most of the teams who were interviewed for that Pew research study reported that the main reasons that they use social media are entertainment and self-expression, which I don't think anybody on the surface is going to come out and say either of those things is like bad on their own. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with being entertained and being able to express yourself. Right. Exactly. And then another really cool pro is that anybody can, this is the whole social media thing, anybody can be a creator and make cool stuff, which took the kind of gate keeping away from like the televisions industry and the movie industry, which is really cool. But then I don't know, like I think a lot of problems started when there became like really big influencers and then it kind of became like celebrities and movie people. Yeah. The internet also used to not be as monetized as it is now. Like now it really is just a content farm like race to make as much money as you can off of it. And I know this is going to sound kind of nostalgic, but you know, even 10, 15 years ago, the internet was much more of like a Wild West kind of place. Like people were figuring out how YouTube works and like all these other kinds of things. Yeah. And like Fred was famous, but he wasn't. I don't think he was like a millionaire. And talking into kind of the drawbacks of social media. Another study that was done in England, this one was for more than 12,000, 13 to 16 year olds. They found that social media, using it more than three times a day, predicted poor mental health and well-being outcomes, lower self-esteem, more reports of struggling to sleep. Social media disrupted their sleep patterns and just generally like a less of a sense of well-being and contentment among teenagers. And that could relate to another con of comparing yourself to millions and millions of people. Yeah. We'll take like Instagram and like you have all these models or fitness people or whatever, or people living a really cool lifestyle that they can't show every part of. It's impossible to show every aspect of your life with these bloggers and people will either be envious of them or get body anxiety because they don't look like a certain person. It seems like everything just got amplified. Like there was comparison. There was like, oh damn, she's really pretty or whatever. I don't want to look like that. But now it's a million people that you're comparing yourself to. And then you have problems for both genders. So for women, you have women like being really fit and stuff. And then so that tends to drive eating disorders in not only girls, but also boys just comparing themselves. And it's just a generational thing too, because even people in Generation X, Millennials, they have those problems too. Because even back then, magazines, they still have those really good images of women. But I think it wasn't as messed up as right now. There was less of it. Less of it for sure. And it translated now to an even worse epidemic. And then with men, you also have the gym industry and stuff and supplement industry, where they want to sell you more protein. So you can have like those big meat heads and all that stuff without knowing that they are on steroids. Important performance enhancing drugs. So you can't look like them at all. Yeah. And it's like the what I look like 10% of the time versus what I look like 90% of the time. And when they're all good lighting. Good lighting, good comp, all that stuff. Yeah. I was going to say, even if you're not comparing yourself to the anonymous or more strangers on the internet who are the influencer types, even just seeing your real life people that you know from high school or whatever, social media is such a fantasy land. People curate what they post on their pages so much. So it's very easy to see these people posting about this trip that they went on, or their wedding, or these other kind of really big things. And they're beautiful photos, and it's like all very curated. But that's all you see. You don't see their daily struggle because they're not going to post about that. They're not posting about like, oh, I woke up today feeling like crap, thinking that like, oh, this isn't real. Yeah, that's funny. Because when you said that, I was like, oh, yeah, that's the thing that social media is used for too. Because I guess I see some friends pictures on Instagram or whatever. But it's mostly people you don't know. So I think there's a line between people, definitely, between people you know, and then the influencers and other people you don't know that you follow. Yeah, this is bias check moment for me. Like, I'm pretty anti-social media overall. But part of that is why. Because when I first made a Facebook back in the day, it was sold to me that like, oh, you do this to keep up with your friends or whatever, or like the people that you meet. And you're absolutely right. You forget that that was the original point of social media. When your feed is so full of like sponsored articles or, you know. People you don't know. Yeah. These random people that are just being shown because, you know, you might click on it and that's good for someone. Yes. Someone's algorithm. Yeah, their ad revenue or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And even like taking, so take all the influences out of it. And like you were saying, it's just like your friends. And then there's that comparison. Yeah. Even like, if I went on a trip and I texted you about it, and like I told you about it, and maybe I sent you a photo, I feel like that would be so much more meaningful or like a better relationship than just posting one thing like, oh my God, Thailand was amazing. Yeah. Versus like, oh, yeah, man, we were in it and there was like this shitty hostel. But then we found this beautiful beach and like it can tell you the whole story. And it's a more personal conversation. Right. Yeah. And I guess like the reason is the thing is so you can show all your friends. Everybody you know can see this trip you did. But then, I don't know, how much does that do for you? Well, yeah, because that reminds me of the parents who, so this is another personal anecdote, not directly related, but I promise I'll tie it in. Sure. When I was growing up, every Christmas morning, my dad would film us opening our presents because he wanted to send it to my grandparents who weren't there to see us. Right. And though as an adult, I can understand like why he would do that. As a kid, I hated it because I would have to wait until he got up and set up the camera. And then like it was so fake and like artificial. Yeah. We sat in front of the tree and it was like one present at a time. Right. And it got to a point where I realized, like, isn't the point of Christmas to like run down and break open the presents and just have fun? You know, and I feel like, so to relate that to this, like, why did you go on your trip? Was it to go on a trip and have fun or was it so you could take a bunch of pictures and post them to a website and make everybody jealous about the really awesome life you live? Or just like feel, yeah, feel good about it or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. We haven't, so talking about likes and dislikes, like you, a thing you either, it buzzes in your pocket and you're like, oh, I got another like, or like you're constantly refreshing to check how many likes you get. Yeah. And that's another thing about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or even like seeing all those cool posts on your feed, it makes you want to also upload those cool photos just to feel better about yourself. And that's something that I've also experienced, even though I'm not really on social media to post. I post just because I see all those pictures and I'm like, oh, I might as well post so I don't feel left out or something. Yeah. And it's just like, there's no real point in all that. Well, and it encourages you to say something, even if you feel like you don't have anything to add to the conversation, you know? Yeah. Like when there's some big activism drive that makes its way around whatever the current issue is, you know, like everybody like changes their profile or whatever, and that's their little contribution or whatever. Yeah. And then, yeah, you don't say anything because you don't have a thoughtful thing to add. And people are like, oh, why are you silent? Like you're not speaking out about this. Yeah. You know. But that being said, as a pro, it is a really good communication device for like protests and like organizations to congregate a lot of people. So like back when there was a Black Lives Matter protest, there was an organization you could follow on Instagram, and then they would post the location of the next rally and where it's going to be. And then a vast number of people would know where to go. Right. So in that way, it's a good communication device. Yeah. Great. Yeah. I got another pro. It's funny. Like I am, I think I'm pretty anti-social media. I like it as a tool, I think would be the best way to use it. But I'm like looking at my pros and cons list, and they're pretty similar. But I think a lot of the cons hold more weight. Yeah. But another pro I got is you can promote like more individual artists and small businesses. Like they can use that to get their name out there and stuff. Like if you do a very niche thing, you couldn't. Necessarily get how to shop and do have like word of mouth and like people walk by and see it. Right. Yeah. It can be a very good marketing tool for smaller businesses. Right. Or just like putting. Yeah. Or like people like clicking your social media on like little posters like, oh, you can get dairy free treats or something like that. Yeah. That's how I got to some of my favorite bakeries by looking around. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think and a lot of what we talk about, you know, these pros and cons, they are both a pro and a con. Right. Like it's kind of the whole thing is a giant double-edged sword. Because earlier we talked about how being online can give you anonymity and greater control over like your persona and how people see you. And that's good if you don't want to be judged based on some like immutable physical characteristic, you know. But then it can lead to deception for other people. Right. If you start doing that in bad faith, you can catfish people and that's like a whole other issue. But I can see the pro side of it too. Because obviously, you know, if you show up and have conversations with people, maybe you don't want their first thought of you and your perspective to always be biased based on how you look or how you act or how old you are or some other thing you can't control, you know. Yeah. And like I think it becomes an issue with dating now where like it's not like before you ask for a girl like, hey, can I go to an ice cream shop with you? We felt like such boomers. Yeah. We're all zoomers. We are. We are. The opposite of boomers. No, but yeah, it's still a thing where like these days, like guys are too afraid to go ask a girl out and stuff. And you just resort to tinders just to be like, hey, stuff like that. Right. Which feeds into that sense of being really bad for people's self-esteem. Yeah, exactly. And I've read a lot about that where there's this really, I think, awful like kind of dating market that people make up about it. But in reality, it's just like a lot of shallow window shopping. You're not actually getting to know anyone. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know. Again, personal anecdote. For my dating history, like I've befriended people and then like we just happened to go out if it worked out. And then if it didn't, that was okay. But and I think people do still do that. Yeah. But you're right. Like if you don't have that self-confidence to like just go out and try stuff, you know, you're being marketed this app that's supposed to do it for you, kind of. And then, you know, that's not good for you. Yeah. Yeah. And we talked, like I talked about small businesses and artists promoting their brand. Yeah. You know, you look at the bigger companies and corporations slam ads in your face and the sponsorships that they make, that creators do. Yeah. Stuff comes in big and drops down, you know. Yeah, for sure. No, for sure. But that's one really big con for me is the societal trend of more anti-socialness and like everybody staring at your phone. I was doing this. We had a community event yesterday called Soup and Stroll where we would walk around the city and get different soups. I was there by myself at first and I was in this park and I would like to just be able to like look around and look at different people and stuff. But I got anxious and so I pulled out my phone. Um, and it would be nice if that wasn't our first gut reaction to whenever we're anxious or whenever we're bored. Yeah. And then, yeah, I think it's just encouraged that anti-social, less human, less connected. Yeah. Yeah. If even when you're out and about with friends, like you're not always giving them your full attention. Like I sometimes zoom my phone with my friends and that's really bad. Yeah. Because it just abstracts from the conversation you're having. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're definitely not alone with that. I've caught myself doing that all the time. Yeah. I'm just like, sorry guys. I don't know. You got into me. But yeah. Well, and that feeds into, we talked about like it's, we, in a minute we're going to talk about like what, so what can we do about it? Right? Like what are some possible solutions or things that people can do to try to mindfully or more responsibly use their social media. But it's hard because it's not always an active choice. You don't always think about what you're doing. It's more just you're acting on impulse. Right. Yeah. And I think all those years of conditioning yourself to scroll, that stuff has like sort of changed the circuitry in your brain. So now your neurons and all their connections and they're just really like that dopamine that you get when you scroll. Yeah. So when you want to do something hard, it's really hard to do because there's not enough dopamine for doing something that's productive, actually. Yeah. Or that instant dopamine. Instant dopamine, exactly. Yeah. Instant gratification that we have to delay now to actually get back to our normal dopamine levels. What's really scary to me or like... So you can... Shorts. Okay. Shorts, I think are... Well, they're the most addictive, I think. Yeah. But I'm scrolling and like I want to stop. Like in my... Like my voice in my head is like, okay, you want to stop. You want to go do something else. But it keeps me there. Yeah. And that's really scary. It's that paralysis. I think someone called it ADHD paralysis. Even if you don't have ADHD, that's a real thing. Yeah. No, it is a thing. And unfortunately, there's not an immediate fix for that. You kind of just have to catch yourself, deep your past. In a minute, like I said, we'll talk about some different things that people can do. Individual choices and some more systemic stuff and some more general advice. But I do think awareness is like the first step to solving a problem. You got to at least admit that something's wrong. Yeah. I feel like a lot of young people know that. Like I talk to people and they're like, yeah, but they don't do anything about it. I think it's really hard to. Yeah. Because I mean, you think about it, like a lot of these things that we think of as like individual choices, it's not like people are going to opt out of having a cell phone. Right. I would. Yeah. I was really like, I would get a flip phone if it wasn't so necessary in our society to like be able to download a certain app for a job or email or whatever. Well, you don't need email, but there are things you really need a smartphone for. Yeah. Like for school, I need to have, so you would plug into the learning management system first. We'll see a lot of classes and courses there. Yeah. But you need an external device to check, make sure that whoever's logging in is actually you. Yeah. It's a two-step. Yeah. So that's how you're just for school. Also for like corporate jobs, you have that too. Yep. That's annoying. Yeah. One different con I want to talk about is like the spread of misinformation and harmful ideas. Yep. Kind of through unchecked, like unchecked, like any video you watch, if there's no, there's no background check on it or whatever. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's really annoying because it now comes into diet now. Like the scam. The different spectrum of diet. What do you think? Like scammers? No. Like trying to sell you pills. Yes. Actually, yes. So you have like people saying, um, yeah, don't eat oatmeal. You have a lot of anti-nutrients and stuff. And they're like YouTube shorts. So they're like, they're saying like oatmeal is absolute bullshit. Don't eat it. And then they have no resources to really prove it. You cannot say like, oh yeah, because of this certain component in there, but it's like, there's not enough evidence to support it. Then what's even worse is that you have people saying, like, don't, don't eat grapes because they're full of sugar and stuff. And like, yeah, you know, you should limit your food consumption, but people, so you have that. Other people saying that food's healthy. They're kind of stuck in between these two viewpoints where you're not really sure what to do anymore. And that goes back to being, there's so much information. There's so much information. Exactly. Yeah. Again, the, the positive of quick, easy access to all this information become the negative because you're drowning in it. Right. We can know anything instantly just by Googling it. And you can know a lot of things that aren't so like good information. Yeah. And one of the things I was thinking to combat that is what I've seen sometimes is below certain videos. There's the main thing I've seen it with is a definition of climate change below videos, either against climate change or, or like saying it's not true or just climate change videos. Yeah. And I think an asterisk, like saying what this, who this video is from and who funds them or like what's their general background. Yeah. Like this, this video was made by the tobacco company while it's like trying to, they don't really do this anymore. But as an example, smoking's cool, man. And then. Well, they still do it. It's just with e-cigs and vapes. Yeah, exactly. So under that, it should be, this was sponsored by the tobacco company and just to tell people where this information is coming from a bit. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. I mean, not to be the teacher about it, but from an educational standpoint to really need more time and effort dedicated to like critical thinking meaning like being willing to challenge or question information that's presented in front of you. Because if you really want all this to work, ideally you want people to be able to say like, well, wait a minute, who's telling me this? Like, who are they? What's their position in relative to me? You know, like does this jive with other sources of information that I trust about this topic? And I understand like it's hard to do all that. And I certainly don't for every single thing that I'm ever interested in. But like for the big issues of our day, like whether it's something political or something like that, you don't want to let people sell you a bunch of bullshit. Yeah, exactly. You want to be able to have a good BS detector to be like, I'm not going to believe that or I'm going to at least fact check it, you know. I feel like a lot of people now, if you look at a headline, you kind of assume like whatever that headline says is correct. Yeah. You don't want to like think differently about it and stuff. And I guess that's why I'm doing that too. If people don't read articles anymore, people barely read a full headline anymore. Yeah, and that goes back to the decreased attention span. Exactly, yeah. If you go to nutrition studies, it's really hard to determine where that nutrition information is coming from until you go to the bottom and then it says like sponsored by the dairy board or whatever. So, it's hard to really determine exactly what's being presented to you and who presented it to you. Wait, does it say it's presented by the dairy? So, yeah, it could say like sponsored by and then the board of dairy or whatever, stuff like that. And it has that? Yeah, it usually has that. Well, that's kind of good. It's also like really hard to find though. Okay. Yeah, it's like buried at the end. Oh, buried at the end. Okay, buried at the end. Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the aggregate effects of all of that is that it leads to a decrease in like nuance or the ability to have like a balanced take on something. Because getting into an issue, it takes time. You have to unpack it, you know, kind of like what we're doing right now with social media. You define it, you talk about the pros and cons, you know, you share your perspective and so on. And eventually, you get to maybe a deeper understanding of the thing, you know. Yeah. But when all you're going for is the quick click or like you're scrolling a 15-second short or whatever, you're not going to be able to drill down into like the deeper levels of meaning and like really think about something. Yeah. And so, what ends up happening is you see all of these, you know, clickbaity video essays that are like, this is the greatest movie ever made or like, you know. Or this is ruining our society. Yeah, exactly. And there's no, not even no middle ground, but just like no exploration of it at a deeper level. Because we want the immediate answer so that we can move on to the next thing. Like we're living in this like constant consumption state and it's not good. Yeah. And then this is the issue. Because some groups will take advantage of this to spread their ideals and their message and stuff. Yeah. And since it's so addictive, their ideas get spread very easily. Yeah. Yeah. And in general, if you give it a lens with somebody's like general moral or ethical values or whatever, it feeds into their confirmation bias. And then they just immediately are like, yeah, you know, he said it. He's a doctor or something. He's immediately right. Yeah. And we, like echo chambers. Yeah. Well, and I was going to say, depending on how a social media platform aggregates its data, it can drive like one of what I consider the two, and both are harmful for different reasons, but like the two conversation archetypes, you know, of online discourse. You got websites that push posts that just have a lot of engagement around them. So that could be likes or comments. But these are like the really, usually the really controversial posts attract the most interest. Right. Like the news. Exactly. Polarization. Right. This is why so many news articles cover controversial figures rather than like an issue, because they're like, oh, if we put Trump in the headline, people will click on it. Or if we, you know, put Biden in the headline, people who don't like him will jump into it or whatever. Right. And that's the thing. It's profit driven, it's news driven. Rather than quality driven, like we said earlier. And that's really dangerous when there's so much consumption and it's so good at pulling you in. Right. And so, you know, if you have the controversy creates clicks or controversy creates clash mindset. Right. Then you're just pushing the most controversial things because that's what's driving your algorithm. And so people get polarized because you're only showing them the most controversial content. Rather than sitting like a Trump supporter and a typical Democrat down and saying, oh, wow, we're both human and maybe we actually have a lot in common. And we agree on like, I don't know, 70% of things or whatever. But instead, we see each other as the enemy because that's what creates more engagement. There's either that or there's what I call like the circle jerk approach, which is like Reddit, where it's like, you know, you click on any Reddit thread, the top comment always has like 15,000 upvotes. And it's just like a stupid joke or like a low effort meme or like people will be like, you know, 15,000 upvotes, that guy's white, haha, or whatever. So like that isn't good either, because then it's just the lowest common denominator getting brought up to the top of the page, you know? Yeah. Okay. So not good. For sure. There's a funny thing where like it says that if you want to get answers to an important or a generally popular topic, all you have to do is go on a social media platform like Reddit and say, and like declare a statement and say, this is this very confidently. But say like something like, you know, totally wrong, people will come at you and they will explain why you're wrong. People say Reddit love that. They don't care. They will tell you that you're wrong. All or nothing. Yep. I got one more thing. Okay. So I'm talking about kind of going back to more Instagram stuff. Everything is really over sexualized. Oh, yeah. I know. So yeah, me and Ricky were talking about this earlier. And it's like the US seems to be really like sexually depraved and so much shown at the same time. Yeah. And so yeah, you go on your Instagram feed and there's a bunch of people in scantile no clothing pretty much. Yeah. And it pops up everywhere. It's like you're trying to learn about the farm farming or whatever. And then there's a naked person that are you like, so it's everywhere. Yeah. And also that goes back to profit because that generates clicks. Yeah. And that gets more money for those people. Yeah. And that gave rise to OnlyFans too. That's a new thing. So like, oh, yeah, yeah. And that's if you're like, you know, so essentially, it's so easy to make money with OnlyFans because there's so many desperate lonely men who just want some sort of instant gratification in that. And I would say, I mean, and I'm basing this off of the shoe on head video that I think we've all seen. But I think that that's very exploitative for the women who use OnlyFans too, because OnlyFans markets itself as like this really awesome, like way to make money to like, you know, slay a girl boss, like pay your way. But in reality, it's just exploitative, man. Like there are so many sad stories about people who like making OnlyFans to pay for like medical debt and stuff. Like what a horrible lesson that like our society only values you enough to get necessary lifesaving care if you're willing to like show off your naked body for people on the internet. Like that's so bad. Yeah. And it's like a, it's almost like a get rich quick scheme. Like you make money, but it's like saying like, yo, man, you're poor. You should become a YouTuber. They make so much money. And it's like, bro, that's literally like, okay, go become a famous actor. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, oh, you're lazy for not doing it. But then like those who start off have connections. And maybe, you know, step back from OnlyFans because in this context, it wouldn't be like your specific body. It's not really a social media app. But I kind of ignore it as a community engagement. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you are still making and sharing content. It's a different kind of content. I was going to say for like artists, whether that's writers, you know, visual artists, musicians, oftentimes the thing you were talking about with the sexualization comes in because like a lot of artists who like draw for a living, they want to make commissions and they want to make money. A lot of the time they feel a lot of pressure to do not safe for work stuff, because that's what people will pay the big bucks for, you know, and it's, you know, maybe not what everyone's kind of hard to do. Yeah. You know, like, it's, I just think it's sad that that's like one of the few things that consistently generates money for people. And look, like, I'm not trying to sound puritanical either. Like if people enjoy stuff, like all the power to them or whatever, I just don't think it should be everywhere all the time. Yeah. It's terrible. You know, in front of everybody. Yeah. I watch some videos on like on YouTube where it's like, you have people are on a megalith stuff talking to other people. Yeah. Across the world or whatever. That's a weird sight, man. Yeah. I've never been. It was actually then. I think it's done. Yeah, it's done, yeah. So, um. You like randomize the person you met, right? Yeah, randomizing. And yeah, you have like people showing off their privates and that stuff. And all like young people. Yeah, they're preying on young people, yeah. So, um, I think people were like, oh, try to guess my age, like some girls and stuff, like try to guess my age. And people would say, oh, probably 25. And they were like, actually 15. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, then it's like people like are dressing like they're themselves anymore. Kids aren't dressing like kids anymore. And they're so used to being over sexualized that they dress in a completely different way, in a more mature way when they don't have to. Yeah. It's so, but their minds are so warped by social media. Yeah. Yeah, and I think, yeah, you don't want to come at anybody for dressing how they dress. No, no, for sure. But it's just like a societal thing that why do people dress the way they do? Right, right. Like, is it because they're like their culture is pushing them towards that? Or is it because it's a personal expression or individual choice? Yeah. No, exactly. That goes back to what we were saying before, like how much of it is actually empowering versus how much of it's exploitative, you know? And I think it, like we had talked about with like the lonely guys who subscribe to the only fans, you know? It hurts everybody when people get exploited. No one benefits from that. Right, exactly. So. Okay, on that note, I think we'll take a break and then we'll come back with some more positive and like individual actions you can take and then maybe larger societal changes that could be made to make social media kind of better. Sounds good. Okay, and we're back. We got some tea and coffee refilled and now we're going to talk about ways you can help with your social media addiction or just benefits for all of us kind of. Absolutely. Now, remember, these are the more kind of individual choices that you maybe can make in your own life. We'll talk more systemic in a second. But these are some ideas that I found on the Mayo Clinic. Number one, set reasonable limits for your social media use. That word is reasonable is kind of up for interpretation. However, if we go back to those studies that I quoted from earlier, they say using it three or more times a day is where you start to see negative outcomes. So, yeah, just, you know, try to limit the amount of time that you're spending on there that you guys want to comment on that first one. Yeah, and you can download certain apps. I think Apple maybe has a built in that you have been doing 30 minutes on this app. Yeah. Also with like, so as a student, I also like to try to optimize my studying time and then also have fun while I study. So I don't completely get depressed with titles and all that. But the Pomodoro Technique, so you study for a bit and then you take a break usually. And one of the things I've seen that's really bad is that if I take a break, but then I use social media to watch a video, I just instantly become super, like, I just want to watch videos the whole day. So have those videos sometimes. It'd be better at the end of the day when you really want to gather up nice hard work. But if you want to have some fun, just walk outside or something else clean, have different sorts of fun. So you can just rely on that social media to give you that dopamine that you need. And maybe have something that you know you're going to do to chill out from studying. If you don't know what you're going to do, I could go for a walk or I could do this. If you don't have a set thing that you're going to do, you'll make this jump on you. So maybe if you like reading, you'll have a book right there and you can read that. Yeah. So you have to have resistance to things you don't want to do and ease the current to things you actually want to do. And that's a really good thing just in general with habits or stuff you want to do versus you don't want to do. But in social media's case, yeah, creating barriers. Right. Because one of the things, it's so easy to use social media. It's so easy to just grab your phone, start going on it versus anything else. Yeah. So I use YouTube and then recently I just deleted it. And that helps a bit with shorts because if you turn your watch face off on the Google version of YouTube, you don't get the shorts immediately. It says, turn your watch face around so we can formulate a pair of shorts so that you can actually watch them. And it's a bit more annoying to navigate YouTube. And that's why I still honestly overuse it. So it's not like a cure-all, but it still helps in creating the resistance I need to walk away from social media. Yeah, same with me. I have the app deleted and then I have to go into Safari and type it in. Yeah. So that's just another boundary. Yeah, another boundary. Exactly. Yeah. Right. Number two, monitor your accounts for online safety and security. That's something we didn't really talk too much about in our pros and cons section. But I think what the clinic was talking about there is especially like if you're a parent or an older sibling of someone who's young on social media, it's really hard to monitor what people are doing on those sites. And to some extent, we want to respect people's privacy anyway, but you do kind of want to be careful about what you post, who can see different parts of your account. I mean, this might just seem like general boomer life advice, but when you get hired at a job, oftentimes they will check your social media. So just be aware of, even though earlier we were saying people over-curate their social media, it is good to curate it a bit. You don't want to be just letting your worst impulse go all over your social media. There's a really funny story on Twitter actually. So this person on Twitter, I think it was a lady, she got accepted to be a NASA, I don't know, I think engineer or something. And she celebrated. She was like, guys, shut the fuck up. I go on Twitter, I'm going to work at NASA. She posted that. And then someone who worked at NASA prior, I think some previous lead engineer or something, he commented under that language. And then she started berating him and insulting him. And then he wasn't responsible for her firing. But NASA found the tweet and fired her. Wow. Just because of that. Just because unprofessionalism. Yeah, exactly. That's actually a perfect segue. Thank you, Fran. My third one from the Mayo Clinic was be a good person online too. Well, yeah, it's just, yeah, be a good person. Don't post shit that you don't want everybody to see because everybody can see it. Absolutely. And I think that that goes for, you know, we talked earlier about the interactions that drive the discourse online. It's usually controversy or just saying what everyone's going to agree with because it's a popular opinion. I think part of being a good person online is being willing to give people the benefit of the doubt and like actually talk to them when you're trying to have a discussion about something. Like it's, in real life, face-to-face talking to people is easy to misunderstand someone or like assume that you know what they mean when you really don't. We're bad at listening to actually understand. Yeah, and social media just creates another barrier of communication between the two of you. Yeah, because you can't read their body language and that's already so much of how we communicate. When you're just reading like text on a web page, it's hard to get across tone or like intention. And that's part why people say whatever they want. Like, would that lady have cursed out that former- Yeah, and a perfect person. Exactly. Maybe that's a good way. If you want to do it in person, don't do it on social media, maybe. Yeah, well, you know, the keyboard warriors, they just need tapping. Yeah, they do need tapping. Yeah, and that's what I mean. Just, you know, be kind and empathetic and all of those. Because there is another person on the other end of the divide when you're interacting with people. And you can learn so much about the different perspectives of somebody else. Like someone completely opposite to you in maybe a political spectrum or something else. Or just culture. Yeah, culture. You can just learn about what they value and how, why their perspective is so different to yours. And that's really cool. Because that's the pro. Yes. Like, if you use it properly, or if it's made to be used properly, it can be a really amazing thing. Yeah. So our fourth tip from the Mayo Clinic is encourage face-to-face contact where and when possible. Basically, you know, this is the joke, like, go touch grass. Everyone's been a while. You know, like, yeah, this is a really amazing tool and it helps connect people. But it is not a substitute for face-to-face interaction. Yes. You can connect with people all around the world. You can connect with your friends who moved away. Yeah. Or like, that's good. But being in person with your old friend is better. Yeah, exactly. This is an oldie but a goodie. When I grew up, my parents always told me the whole, you know, think globally, act locally kind of thing. And that's true, you know, for being active and trying to help advocate for different causes. But it's also true just like your friendships, you know, like, you want to have people in your actual day-to-day life that you can interact with, too. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I deleted most social medias. Like, I used to use Instagram. That was my biggest one. I still have an account, but I deleted the app. I don't really go on it. But for people who want to stay on social media and still have it on their phone, you can unfollow a lot of people. And you can even unfollow everybody and then only follow back the people you really care about. Right. And the influencers you really get something out of. Yeah, yeah. And that could be a good way to still use social media but have it more curated to stuff that would benefit you. Yeah. Because if you're, like, I'm on the Instagram sometimes. I don't have an app, like you said. And I only follow two people. And I only have one post on my story. It's been there for, like, a month now. Yeah. From the one account that posts stuff I follow. Yeah, you never. You can't really scroll down there. Yeah. But then in the search section, you can still scroll down. So that's a better part. Yeah, you never like any of my posts. Yeah, I'm very particular with my likes. Yeah, but you'll comment. I like three things. I feel like you should. I comment, though. Yeah, you comment. Again, killing it with the segues here, guys. Because number five, my last tip, is be mindful in general about social media. So just like you would your in-person interactions or activities that you get up to, be mindful, be present in the moment of what you're actually trying to get out of that use of social media. Right. Are you actively looking up the answer to a question? Are you watching a video specifically to help you solve a problem you're having? You know, we say this off-air all the time. Use it as a tool. I think that solves the most problems. I agree. I approach that from, you know, in my spare time, I like to do creative writing. And one of the best bits of advice that I ever found about writing is, you know, you're typing on a computer, so you're always going to have access to distractions. If you want to stay on task, you can do one Google search of one specific question you have, and then you have to get back to writing. That's crazy, because like, I would search up one thing and then like, oh, like, I would just get curious, like, oh, how do grapes grow and stuff. Yeah. That's so crazy. It's just like this rabbit hole of stuff. Yeah, and that's kind of fun. But if you're trying to focus on it, it's hard for sure. Well, and that's, and you got to fight to preserve that attention span. Yeah. But yeah, I think if you use these tips, and you do your best to, like we said, use it mindfully, you can get, maximize as much of the positive social media that you get out of it, whilst hopefully minimizing the negative consequences. Yeah. Yeah, for me, I recently just, I made my background a really plain background. And I just deleted, not deleted fully, but moved all my apps, most of them to just where you have to search them. So if I have to type in Instagram, and then it will pop up. Yeah. Or whatever. And it just made my phone really clear. It's an Apple. I think Androids would like to download something very basic. Yeah, so I have a gray background right now, too, very plain. And what you could do also, I think, in Apple, too, is that you can just make your icons really boring. Like I have gray everything, minus a few apps. But for the most part, everything looks really dull. Because it's so much color, so much color relation. Exactly. Yeah. So that's kind of at a more individual level. And then talking more systemic, cultural, like kind of baby picture changes. I think one thing, I'm always advocating for another progressive era. I really think that there should be more oversight and accountability for social media companies. I think that they should be held to account for the fact that they, you know, they thrive on a business model that exploits people in numerous ways. Yeah. And it's really not treated as like the crisis that it is kind of. Yeah. In some ways, you can think of it as a health crisis. Yeah. Like people are super lonely, people are super anxious, people are not connecting. And it could be seen as a health crisis. Yeah. So you could kind of act as such, maybe. Yeah. Because it is affecting our attention span, our ability, or our want or desire to do things that actually help us and help society progress as a whole. Yeah. Yeah. And depression as well. Depression. Loneliness or comparison. Well, and it's a political and economic crisis, too. I mean, in a lot of sense, I think the loneliness economy that we were talking about earlier with like OnlyFans and stuff, it's the classic case of, you know, capitalism creating the disease and then trying to sell you the cure. Like, you know, one of the, and I meant to mention this before when we were talking about like Hushie Grass or whatever, we need more third spaces. We need places where offline people can congregate and meet up to have the experiences, you know, play games, just interact in a positive way that doesn't require you spending a bunch of money or having an excuse to, you know, be in a physical location for a time. Yeah. That's why college is pretty good because I go to RPI right now, studying engineering. So one of the cool things is that there are student-run clubs, just purely student-run. They usually have their own rooms where you can meet up, you know, do some cool projects. And even things like dance classes are really cheap if you get into a club or if you want to go hiking or anything, you just join an online club and boom, it's not even that expensive. You just get to meet new people and go on trips. Yeah. So. Yeah. Back to like an individual advice, you use Meetup a lot and that's a way to find groups in person that you can collaborate. Meetup is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I think third places are really important and we don't have a lot of them anymore. I think we'll do another episode on third places, but just, yeah, places where it's cheap to congregate with your friends and do just fun stuff. Yeah. And yeah, like in the fifties or eighties, there was like roller rinks or like ice cream parlors or like diners and like, you know, like all the high school movies, you always see kids hanging out. Kids don't hang out anywhere. It's like you go to a diner and they'll buy it and get kicked out or like you go. Yeah. So many places have been taken away for, from the public, from kids. Yeah. And loitering laws make it so you can't just like hang out. You're just trying to hang out with your friends because you have nowhere to go. But. Well, even something as simple as, you know, the old idyllic image of like you walk home from school with your friend to go to their house to hang out. Yeah. And a lot of places, at least in the suburbs or small towns, you can't even like walk home or to school anymore. Yeah. Because there's either design so poorly or like so car focused that you're going to get like run over if you try to like walk home or there's just this weird suspicion that people have of kids walking home. I don't know if that's like a stranger danger thing or what, but, you know, if you see like a, even a 12 or 13 year old kid, like walking by themselves, people get very concerned and they're like, where are the parents? What's, you know. Yeah. And that's, so this is interesting because we're talking about social media and then there's this huge other issues that affect social media and why, like, so parents will say, these kids got to get off their damn phones. Yeah. And yeah, technically, yes. But there's so many reasons why kids are on their phones, like not having a lack of places to hang out. Yeah. So there's all these issues that are linked to social media. Yeah. And I definitely think that young people in general want more opportunity to interact in person and have these kind of deeper, more meaningful connections, you know? So from a cultural standpoint, it's how do we bring back those spaces and those opportunities for people to do that? Yeah. And then also like a cultural shift or that could lead to a cultural shift to be hanging out more in person again. Yeah. I don't know if you guys heard of it, but Jenna, also the generation after us, is now being referred to as the iPad baby. Yeah. So a lot of them are just immediately, as soon as they hit an age where they can speak and stuff, they now have an iPad to themselves and all that. And that's just going to cause so many more issues. It's true. And I haven't watched too many videos about that, but the few that I've seen talk a lot about, like, we are in uncharted territory in terms of the brain science, how does a developing mind with all of those very neuroplastic neurons develop under those kind of conditions of permanent stimulation? Yeah. I mean, I know for sure it's going to make them more socially awkward or more anxious socially because they're not used to so much social interaction for everything. Right. Can you guys remember, so I was in seventh grade or something when I got a smartphone. Yeah. But I can't remember it got so ingrained in my life. I can't remember before that kind of. I can. I got my first, so I got a smartphone and meaning that I could like search the internet and like have apps. Is that what you mean? Yeah. So that for me, it wasn't until college. I didn't get that until freshman year. Wow. Now I did have a cell phone in high school. It could text and send calls and receive calls. And that was about it. That kind of tracks. Yeah. Freshman year of college. Yeah. That was when they gave me the smartphone because they're like, oh, you're going off to college. This is a tool. That was pretty crazy. You might need it. Now. I don't think that that's normal for me. Most of my friends and peers when I was in high school had smartphones. Yeah. I'm for the record, for listeners, I'm class of 2016. So, you know, back then already, I feel like in my suburban school, most kids had smartphones. Yeah. I think I'm like one of those kids who had their phone really young. I remember having a phone probably elementary school, honestly. A smartphone. Yeah. A smartphone, like fully capable of anything. Wow. But like, I just wasn't as addicted to it either. Even as a kid, even though I looked like YouTube and stuff, the social media wasn't as. Yeah. It definitely wasn't as pervasive. Yeah, for sure. But I remember in middle school, we would play like Clash Royale in class and that was pretty. So yeah, like phone use, like isn't just social media. Yeah. But I feel like most of it is. And then games. Yeah. So that's I feel like that's what people spend most of their time on. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, I think and there's a lot of deep issues you can get into about why we feel like this need to constantly fill the void of like time and entertainment and stuff. But I think people might feel that less if they can move toward just trying to be mindful and whatever they are currently doing, you know, like really push back against the urge to like just reach for the phone. Like you were saying, when you're around other people, and feeling a little socially anxious, like don't immediately go for the phone. Like, yeah, really make the conscious choice to, you know, that I'm just going to be present in this moment right now. Yeah, that's what I try to do. Like, I'm like, okay, I want to go for my phone, because then I don't have to look around. Or maybe I like not look at somebody in the eye or whatever. Yeah. But then yeah, I try not to. And I try to just like, yep, this is normal. I'm just hanging out looking around. What do you guys do when you walk past a group of anybody, like guys, bros, whatever? I feel like my default is go on my phone, so I don't like make a weird face or anything. Yeah. I really try to not do that. Like, it definitely is a response. Yes. But I'm like, nope, I try not to do it. And then like, because you look, this is for socially anxious people is a bit of a thing. But this is what works for me, I think. Whenever you're like anxious about doing something, like walking down the street, and you're passing a group of people, I try to think like, what you're doing is totally normal. And like a normal thing to do. So you're walking down the street, and you look somebody in the eye, because you're both passing each other, and you're both looking ahead. So it's like a completely normal thing to do. Yeah. Or like talking to people at stores or whatever. Yeah. Like, it's okay to like, a lot of people are anxious now, it's okay to talk to people, it's okay to like, walk down the street or whatever. Right. Yeah. And like, most of the people you're going to interact with don't really care about you at all. They're not going to remember you, even if you make a weird mistake or anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's, I think that's totally liberating in a way, because, you know, maybe it's because people are so used to always documenting every facet of their lives on social media. But like, that's not going to, that's not the reality of how everyday people see, you know. I mean, this is the What We See podcast, it's all about perspective, right? Yeah. You know, when you're walking down the street, yeah, like, they're not going to remember you, even if you have a positive interaction, you know. You talked about soup and stroll, last year there were those people that we were, they were in front of us in line, this like, couple that were about the same age as me and Reina. And we were hanging out, we were talking, it was just vibing, you know. And we ended up smoking a joint with them and just like, hanging, and it was totally fun. Yeah. And then we never saw them again. Here's the thing, though. So, you remember that. Yeah. So, like, yeah, you're, like, people forget about stuff, they probably won't remember it. But then sometimes, when you do have a nice interaction, that can stay with people and that can be a nice thing, and it can kind of, if you individually do that, it could, it could, it will definitely help the world, kind of. Well, for sure. People don't know the level of impact they have on the other people around them. Right. Yeah, you don't know what it is. Yeah, right. Like, if you smile at somebody or compliment somebody or whatever. Yeah. That can be really nice to them. Yeah, right. Yeah. So, I mean, it all comes back to do your best to, you know, just be kind and be patient, and that will all ready by itself put you way ahead of most people, I think. Yeah. And try to resist the urge to look at your phone, um, go and play a game on your phone. Yeah, live with purpose. Use everything with a purpose that you want to do. Right. I think that's a tool, really. Yeah. So, with that on a positive note. Yeah. And be just like, tools. Tools. Use it as a tool. Tools, purpose, and in general, just to be progressed. Use it as a tool to help you get better at things. Because it's a tool that should serve you. It should either, it can give you entertainment. It can give you knowledge. It can connect you with people. But if you use it as a tool, it will benefit you way more than letting it use you or being, have to rely on it. Yeah. It is a beautiful thing, because you can learn so many things and meet up with so many people just through social media. Yeah. And yeah, you could use it to actually meet up with people in person. Yeah, you can meet up, exactly. I would say keep an open mind about it, too, because a lot of this that we're talking about, new technologies, these are still kind of being studied, the effects, and we're learning more all the time about, like, how best to do it. So, as long as you're aware and, like, paying attention, I think that you'll pick up on the good stuff. Yeah. And you have to sift through a lot of junk, but there are really cool creators and artists that are doing really cool things. Right. And if you find them and then kind of only look at their stuff, then that can be really cool, too. Yeah, for sure. Anybody have any other kind of last thoughts on the topics while we're wrapping up here? Yeah. I don't know if we talked about that. I actually forgot. Did we talk about the, about Florida passing the bill? Yeah. So, maybe we brought that up. Yeah, systemic kind of change laws and such. So, Florida passed a bill that would prohibit anyone under the age of 16 to have social media. They did not pass it yet, it passed one of the houses. Yeah, I believe the Florida State House of Representatives. Okay. So, they're trying to pass it. They're trying to pass it, yeah, for sure. What are we thinking about? Just, like, in general, we could, you know. Yeah, I go back and forth on, I think there has to be some type of restrictions put on these companies. Like, I don't, like, it's a thing of overstepping bounds and setting precedents and stuff. But something has to be done. Yeah. No, I think so too. I mean, when I was younger, probably, you know, 18, 19, I would have been, like, very against this, I think. Because my instinct then would have been, like, this is, you know, people should be able to make the choice for themselves and they, you know, we don't need the state government to tell us what we can and can't do, right? But now that I'm getting older, I think more about it and I'm, like, yeah, but really how much do teenagers make the conscious choice to, you know, avoid a lot of the stuff we talked about anyway, you know? Yeah. I have a really good thought. Go for it. Okay. So, we discussed dopamine and the dopamine hits you get. Yeah. So, I'm relating social media to illegal drugs. Okay. So, first off, so if we say social media is a drug, like, it's very addictive. Yeah. It gives you a dopamine thing, similar to different drugs. Yeah. We criminalize drugs and it can be a similar thing. It's like, this drug use is hurting society, so we ban it. This is ideal for drug use. It doesn't always work that way. Yeah. And it's even worse than something like heroin, because it's not necessarily, but it's being shoved down our throats and pushed on us. It's like if an illegal, dangerous drug was being forced on you and manipulated so that you would use it. Wait until we do our episode on the opioid crisis and you'll find out that we are as well, but yeah. Yeah. But no, you're right. You're right. I get what you're saying. Yeah, because, like, you know, you can quit alcohol and then you can make it, you can totally get rid of it, but that's not the case with social media. It's always going to be there and kind of being pushed towards you to use it a lot. Right. Like, people will frown on alcohol. Yeah. So it's social attempts like caffeine, pretty much. So I wonder if maybe then, rather than trying to outright ban the use of social media by people under a certain age. Right. Because that was the Florida thing I was trying to do. What if, like many say, we should reform the war on drugs to make it less about punishing drug users and rather treating it as a medical condition, you know, fighting the disease of addiction. Right. Maybe the solution is not to ban social media for certain ages. Maybe it's to set up programs to help people be treated for their social media addiction. Yeah. Right. So, you know, you would allocate funding and promote education about what kind of what we're doing right now, like being mindful about your social media use. Yeah. And trying to have a healthier relationship with it. Yeah. If it's like a drug, you know, then you should be able to have access, but maybe do it in a healthier way. I have seen that with people with like video game addiction, they go to like retreats and kind of help with that. So that's interesting because it's like, could be like a systemic program. Yeah. Like a government program or whatever, but to change individuals. Right. Which can be kind of interesting. Yeah. And another thing with like, if you have third party apps where you can, I think, I don't know about it at all, but like there's this app I've heard of that you can establish a limit. You can allocate some time to be on YouTube or Instagram or whatever. And once you hit that limit, you can continue being on YouTube. But you have to pay in order to get more time. So. That's a big barrier. That's a big barrier. It's like, you know, that extra 10 minutes is really worth $3 or anything like that. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And obviously, you know, making this comparison of social media to drug in terms of addiction, just like with drugs, I think people are at different states of addiction with the social media or like tech usage in general. Reminds me of that book, Dopamine Nation, that Raina recommended because she often gets into all of this. Yeah. But part of what I think I should say, too, is like the solution to whatever your current relationship is with social media is going to be an individual thing. What works for some people might not work for others. And you have to kind of try something sometimes until you find the right balance or what works. Right. Yeah. Like for me, I think it's best to delete Instagram and then like others could curate their feed a lot to just have what they like. Yeah. Or somebody is really addicted, they should go to a therapy again. I was thinking that we should, in schools, it would be cool to like, I don't like to compare it to drugs because that was like a super big problem. And with like marijuana and other drugs. Yeah. But have it in school, talk about the dangers of social media and kind of the ways to cope with it. And that would be kind of cool if that was taught in like health class or something. Yeah. Yeah. As long as you have the goal of harm reduction rather than like, because we're not saying punish kids for wanting to use social media, right? Yeah. Yeah. We're just saying like, how can we make it a healthy way to do this? Yeah. I think that that would be a more just way to go about it personally than trying to ban it. Yeah. But what about laws that make companies restrict, like put the time uses like, okay, you've been scrolling for 10 minutes. What if there was a law that made social media companies do that? Right. So that's not a ban, but it is government down restriction. Yeah. Regulation, which I think is a legitimate thing the government should do with businesses, especially need it. I mean, we talked about, you know, I know we're trying to get away from the drug comparison, but like we regulate tobacco, we regulate alcohol, we regulate marijuana, at least here in New York state. So why not regulate social media if it has a similar effect on people? Yeah. Yep. Yeah. It does get those requirements to be a drug. So it should be treated as such for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And we're just brainstorming different things. Like for me, at least, like these aren't my fully formed opinions. Sure. We're just kind of, I'm just kind of working through it. Yeah, definitely. Did anybody else have any other thoughts? I think that's pretty good. Yeah. And on some good stuff. Yeah. So, yeah. And remember, when you're trying to reduce your social media intake, you are going against a socially engineered algorithm that is meant to keep you addicted. So don't beat yourself up for it. Just do your best. Awesome. But yeah, thank you for that. That's a really good point. Because yeah, you can, you can do all this stuff. You can limit stuff. But it is a very intense algorithm. Yeah. Don't do your best, but don't have to beat yourself up if you like, oh shit, I watched an hour straight of YouTube. Yeah, take it day by day. That's how you approach it. Yeah, I'm just trying to do my best. Thank you. That's a really good end point. It really is. We could do a whole episode on shame and like how as an emotion, it really doesn't help you. Ooh, that would be fun, man. You know. Put it on the list. We will. But thank you all for listening. Yeah, this is our first episode. We'll probably do like an intro episode talking about what it's about, but this is going to be the first one we do. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Thank you so much.