EP 18-Eric Ebers

This is the Unparalleled Performance Podcast hosted by Josh Rebandt. Each week, they feature ambitious guests who are passionate about success. They cover topics on discipline, goals, life, leadership, and fitness. The host encourages listeners to follow them on social media and leave ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts. In this episode, the guest is Eric Ebers, a former baseball player and coach. They discuss Eric's playing and coaching background and the legendary coaches he's worked with. Eric emphasizes the importance of relationships and learning from experienced coaches. This is the Unparalleled Performance Podcast. I am your host, Josh Rebandt. Each week we will feature guests who are ambitious and passionate about being more than the status quo because we all know that being average is the enemy to success. We will cover topics that will help you become more disciplined and committed to your goals in life, leadership, and fitness. Now on to this week's episode. And remember, as iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. Enjoy the show. Welcome back, everyone, to the podcast. Just a quick plug for our social media before we get rolling. If you haven't found us on Instagram, you can at Unparalleled Performance Podcast, and then also over on Twitter, or I guess it's actually called X now, at UnparalleledPP. And then one other plug. If you would do me a favor, if you have some time right now, just leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. It'll help out the algorithm and try and get this podcast into as many people's ears as possible. So if you get a chance to, that'd be great, whether now or whenever you get your fingers available to do that. So getting into this week's episode, though, joining me in studio is our guest, Eric Ebers. I played for Eric in 2009 and 2010 with the Niagara Power and the New York Collegiate Baseball League. Immediately had a ton of respect for you, Eric, because of your experiences and what you brought to the table, but probably mostly your ability to connect with us and relate with us as players. And you're incredibly detailed, organized, and it's definitely something that I think our guests should know about you as your preparation as a coach. So there's no doubt in my mind why he's had success as a player and as a coach, all facets of the game, and we'll dig into some of his background with that. But as we tried in our first take on this, coach, I told you, if you told me to eat dirt when I was playing for you, I probably would have done it. But welcome to the studio. I know we've been trying to get you on here for a few months and finally worked out. So excited to have you. Welcome to the show. Well, I'm excited to be on here. I hope I don't bring down the quality of guests that you've been having. I've thoroughly enjoyed the first 16, 17 episodes. Well, I appreciate it. You're the perfect candidate for episode 18. So yeah, super excited to finally get you on. It's been a long time coming for sure. So if you could just get us rolling, walk us through a little bit of your playing background and then also your coaching background as well. Coaching background. Grew up in a small town, Southern Illinois, Stillville High School. You know, if you know me, I'm proud of that and all that. It's blessed to have good coaches and there's something to be said about growing up in a small town. Ended up going to play at John A. Logan Junior College in Carterville, Illinois, where I played for Jerry Halstead. Got to win his 800th game. I think he retired winning 1,000 or 1,100. I can't remember towards the end, but he won a bunch of them in a short amount of time. Were you on the mound for the 800th? I was. I got to, yeah. I mean, of course back then it was, he gave you the ball and you just gave it back to him at the end. So like you look at the record book and it's like complete games. This is like everybody from that game in 2002 is like, here you go. All right. I love that. You know, and I kid. I mean, we'd be able to, our number one was 96, 97 back then and it was easy for him to finish a game, you know, in a hundred pitches, you know, 15 strikeouts or something like that. And, you know, I benefited from following from him being left-handed in about 86, 87 at the time. You know, just, is that a changeup? Nope. But I'm glad you think so. I was able to parlay that into a scholarship at Mississippi State, played for Ron Polk, which, you know, at the time, you know, I'm embarrassed to say this, but I did not know who he was at the time. You know, like when, you know, you're meeting with your junior college coach and wondering where you're going to play afterwards. And I was like, you know, typical ones, LSU, Florida State, you know, and he's like, well, what about Mississippi State? And I was like, you know, are they any good? You know, it gives me that dumb look like, are they any good? Go look it up, you know? And so I get the old dial-up internet and start Googling. I'm like, oh, wow, they're, this might be, you know, one of the meccas of college baseball. And, you know, making your visit, going down, watching, you know, being at Duty Noble and 11,000 people just, you know, ringing cowbells and rooting for you and, or booing you, depends on how you're going. But it was, it was a lot of fun. Got to play two years there. And what I didn't know at the time, you know, I knew I wanted to be a coach. You know, felt that was a calling and something that I wanted to do. So at the time, I didn't realize it, but it ended up being really, really good for me in my preparation and moving forward, you know, getting to play for Coach Polk. And he was so incredibly organized and detailed and, you know, it, down to a T. I mean, we had a four-hour practice and it was, it was marked down for four hours. There wasn't a minute wasted. So it was, it was good for me early in my career. Yeah, absolutely. And then you went on to play Indy ball after that for four years. Is that right? Two, two in like a spring training or something like that. I played for enough teams, it should have been four or five years, but it was, you know, it was good two, two years and some change and got to play in the Frontier League, the Northern League and the American Association. I enjoyed that a lot of fun, you know, about the fifth year or the fifth team after you've been traded, released and put on waivers and all that fun stuff, you realize maybe, maybe I, you know, I'm not going to make it, you know, and after getting released by El Paso, you know, made some phone calls trying to figure out where to go next. And I was engaged with my, to my now wife and we were getting married that December. And so I think it was July. And so I'm like, well, I better hurry up and find a job. So ended up my first job was in Columbus, Mississippi with worked at a place called Lee Middle School, which is now Columbus Middle School and helped out with a high school at the time. Got you. Got you. And so you started there with coaching, right? And then you just kind of started moving on from there. So one of the things that I thought is really cool about your story is the amount of legendary coaches that you've had the opportunity to play for or coach with. You mentioned Coach Halstead from John A. Logan. You mentioned Ron Polk at Mississippi State, your current head coach there at William Carey. And for our listeners, William Carey went to the NAI World Series this year and had an incredible run. So congrats again on that that year to you and the coaching staff, the players at the school. But your head coach there, I think he's now this year is his 39th season as the head coach. But I think he's been there longer than that. And then you've also spent time with Mike Kinison at Delta State, who's a legendary Division Two coach in Georgia. And then you also mentioned that your boss at UT Martin had a big impact on your coaching career. So you've been around a lot of legendary coaches, coaches that just have really helped instill a lot of really good knowledge about the game. But also I know just from talking with you, things that you've been able to pick and that you've wanted to help emulate to the players that you've coached, you know, picking things from those coaches that you've played for. So if you can just share a little bit about maybe about each coach specifically, you don't have to necessarily, but just some things that you've picked up from those coaches that have really helped you become the coach that you are now. Yeah, and I mean, I'll even throw my high school coach in there. I couldn't tell you his high school record, and he couldn't tell you what his high school record was, because, you know, he goes, I'm the head coach at Stilwell, Illinois, and I like that. And you know, I think he's been there now since 97 or 98, you know, and so we've been really blessed to have somebody who played college baseball come and, you know, teach us the game. And you know, one thing that I truly appreciate about him is, you know, the relationship building, being at a small school, you're able to do that. And he's still one of the people, you know, I call on a regular basis and get advice from, of course, he's like, well, I don't want to be in college baseball, so I don't know what to tell you, you know, and all that. But he, you know, just really poured into us. And that was easy. And I had a unique experience at John A. Logan, I was one of two freshmen who made it to the spring with our team, we ended up, I think, with 19 guys or something like that. It was a really small squad. But, you know, so it was one of those... No wonder he didn't take the ball away from you. I think we had seven or eight pitchers. Let's go, you know, and I mean, I joke around says probably the fourth best starting pitcher on our team because, you know, we had a guy drafted second round and a guy drafted eighth round and a guy drafted 25th. And here I am, you know, settling for Mississippi State. So it was, you know, I think it was pretty comfortable him, you know, giving one of us the ball and being like, okay, I think we're going to win there. I mean, and our offense wasn't too bad either. I mean, we were pretty stout around the infield and in the outfield. So it was a good team. And, you know, I was one of two freshmen. So it was a got a unique, different relationship there than I think most people would have. And because that next year, I was the only returning sophomore. So really got to connect with him and T-Dub, Coach Williams, a lot more than I think I would have had we been, you know, 12 freshmen and 12 sophomores and stuff like that. So, you know, Coach Polk, I mean, he wasn't that, you know, he's more standoffish with everybody, but you know, he's a jokester. If you've ever been around him, he's good for a joke or two. The detailedness that he had was something that I knew that I wanted to do. And, you know, really our pitching coach, my senior year, Russ McNichol, he was a guy that was incredibly impactful on my coaching career because he was a guy that was willing to work with you no matter what. You know, I remember my senior year, I had a terrible fall. Coach Polk did rankings. I was 21 out of 22 pitchers ranked in that fall. And, you know, he sat there and he said, look, you're nobody under 15 has ever pitched for me before. So you got two choices. You know, you can transfer out of here or you can try or you can register and then transfer after that. He's like, but those are two choices. And so when I ended up meeting with Coach Mack, after meeting with him, he's like, well, I mean, if you're willing to try some stuff, you're willing to work, I'm willing to help you. And, you know, I mean, those, I think I got 18 innings that year and I'm, you know, incredibly proud of those innings. And I'm very thankful that he helped me along the way and I was willing to work with me during those things. So that's always been kind of something that, you know, I try to pour into the people that I'm coaching too. There's some days you probably don't feel like, and there's probably days he didn't want to deal, you know, didn't want to deal with me that day, you know, but I was thankful he was. And so that was impactful. And, you know, real quickly about the other guys, Bubba Case was at UT Martin and he won a bunch of games at Jackson State, made it to the World Series, you know, and then he went to UT Martin. And what a lot of people don't know is at the time I think he was one of the only Division I coaches still coaching or teaching class and he was teaching four math classes. Unreal. You know, and it was just like, you know, he's not teaching a health class or CPR class here or there, like it was four legitimate math classes. And, you know, and our budget was terrible. Like it was really, really bad, but he never let on. He never, you know, acted like we didn't have, you know, never used that as a, as a crush for what we couldn't do, quote unquote. And, you know, talking to the players that we coached at the time I was working with them, they're like, why didn't you ever say this stuff? He's like, cause that's just who he was. He wasn't going to let that be an excuse. And so it was a lot of fun when we made the conference tournament for the first time when I was there and just seeing the joy and all that on his face. Cause I mean, when you talk godly men, like he's, he was one of them. I think he, he won the FCA Coach Kittrell award. I think he was either the first or second recipient of that. So that was really special to be on staff when he, he did that. And, um, he was kind enough to help get me on as a GA at Delta state. Um, Mike Kenison was maybe the most intense person I've ever worked for. You know, he was Delta state through and through and his story, you understand that he, he was a walk on out of junior college and didn't make it. And his second year, he made it and became an all American, you know, so he worked his tail off. And so that's just, that's his mentality. And so understanding that going in, like that, that made sense. But, you know, um, and he is passionate about that. That's the first time that I was around somebody that passionate about, you know, not just the game of baseball, but the school and everything that you were doing it for. Um, and of course he may have been more detailed than what a Ron Polk was, you know, and, and which is incredible, which is crazy. And so, and I'm fortunate now to coach with coach Holford and, you know, he showed up when he was 18 on campus and he has never left, you know, he, uh, 39th year as a head coach. And, uh, I may be wrong like 52nd year at just at William Cary. And it's just unbelievable again, you know, like, I'm glad I had that small school, you know, whatever. Cause I mean, he is William Cary through and through, you know, and it's fun. We'll have some new guys show up on campus in a different shirt. And he's like, what are you wearing that for? They didn't want you, you know, we wanted you. And so, uh, it's kind of, uh, the mantra around that, you know, they didn't want you, we wanted you and, you know, being, uh, we're in the same town as Southern Miss. So, you know, you every now and then, you know, you try to compete for, you know, press and stuff like that. And I mean, it's the hashtag base Berg has been here in Hattiesburg and, you know, I think last year we won 49 games. I think they won 41. So if you're going to one of our games, you weren't missing a whole lot of, you know, losses or you weren't doing well or whatever, but, you know, and he's, uh, you know, the longevity and I tell you what, I don't know how long he can do it. Like, I mean, I say that and I mean, he could do it another 10 years and be fine with what he's doing, you know? And so it's, uh, real active and sharp watching, you know, studies the game still. So it's something I appreciate and something that I hope that I'm able to do to still have that passion. You know, when I get older, the, to continue to learn and not just, you know, like when I came to him first about Rep Soto, you know, he, he wasn't like, nah, I don't know what it was like, all right, what is it? And then let's see it. And, you know, like he's, he's open to all that kind of stuff. So, um, yeah, that's really cool, man. Yeah. And I don't know if our audience fully grasps all that, like all of those guys that you just mentioned have been at the same place for over 20 years, minimum probably. And like that doesn't happen anymore. And, uh, just so cool that you've been, you're kind of like a magnet to all these guys that are just sticking around places. So really cool for you're probably one of the very few players or coaches that have had the opportunity to be with so many lifers at different institutions. So, um, yeah, pretty cool. And since you have been at multiple levels, so you obviously played JUCO, played Division I, you've coached Division I, you've coached Division II, you've coached NAI, you've coached high school and even middle school. Um, what, uh, what thoughts do you have for high school athletes or parents that are trying to figure out what level of play? Because I think that oftentimes, and this is goes for any sport, but I think oftentimes the level gets misconstrued in that, you know, high schoolers go into a college program, let's say an NAIA or a Division III or junior college. And they think, Hey, I'm going to start day one on campus. And I fell into that as well. When I walked on to Adrian college, my freshman year, I thought I was going to be, I thought I was going to be the dude. I thought I was going to be one of the weekend starters. And, uh, you know, you go down and you, our first game, my first college game was at Emory University in Georgia. And I'm just, you know, chilling in the dugout, probably doing a pitch chart. And, uh, I'm watching the first couple of innings and I'm like, man, these guys are good. They're fast. Like that guy got down the line real fast and it's Division III baseball. And I had no idea, but like, I think that's one of the most misconstrued things is that, you know, you'd think that, Hey, I'm just going to walk in here and start. Um, but there's really a big development curve, not just, um, from a baseball standpoint, but a mental standpoint, a maturity standpoint, um, all those different things. So do you have anything that you would, um, that you've thought about through the years pass on to high school players that are looking for a spot to play? I mean, first of all, I'll be open to almost anything, you know, there's nothing more disappointing than asking the kid, what, what are you looking for in a school? Well, I want to go to Mississippi state. Well, yeah, I mean, everybody and their brother wants to go there or, you know, I want to go to LSU, you know, all these schools. And it's like, you know, you don't know anything about the smaller schools, especially the ones close to you. And I encourage you to go watch a school, watch them play, watch, you know, excuse me, see the talent that's around there. You know, like you might be surprised when you show up. Like I hate the fact that Juco has a bad rap quote unquote, you know, he's always seen on Twitter, everybody being like, Oh, you think you're too good for Juco. I mean, there's a lot of really, really, really good players in Juco. And guess what? Some of those guys don't qualify to go division one. So guess where they end up B2 and NAIA. So you end up walking up and, you know, our team at Delta state in 2012, and even our, you know, in our team this past year, William Carey, they would have ran circles around our team at UT Martin, just simply because we're more complete. And, you know, just because it's a division one doesn't mean it's, you know, quote unquote division one, you know, there's a lot of teams stuck in the middle, whether it's, you know, just division one in nature, you know, and it's exciting that college baseball is starting to get a lot more attention. You know, I do like the fact that, you know, you thought, well, hopefully the NIL that it would kind of supplement some more scholarship money, and it's kind of turning it, unfortunately, you know, into a rough situation at times, you know, which I guess you probably could have predicted that, but it's nice, you know, and some of these lower levels, you've got a better chance of getting better money than you do at the division one level. You know, junior college, there's 24 scholarships, we get 12. And then of course, that offsets, like our best player, who was a player of the year, All-American, you know, he's a 4.0 student. So his entire scholarship doesn't count against our salary cap. So that's, you know, there's a lot of ways around that. So that allows us to help us with other guys. Yeah. And you talked about better money, but also to a better chance for development sometimes too, because you might go to one of those schools that maybe like you said, you know, people throw around the perennial names of wanting to be at one of those top power five schools, but you may go there and you may find yourself out of a school within a semester because you can't compete at that level. And then maybe you do end up falling back to a division two or an NAI or even a JUCO and then resetting your career type thing. Whereas out of the gate, maybe if you had just gone somewhere and you had a whole fall to where you were getting more at bats in the fall, more innings on the mound, maybe you really need to spend time in the weight room. And you were at a school that didn't focus on that as much in the fall. And you needed that for your own development. I think understanding what your needs are as a player to develop and finding coaches that are passionate about player development, again, that goes for any sport. And like you said to go watch, go watch a game, like see how those guys play, watch how those coaches coach and see if you can picture yourself being in that type of environment. And also to see how much fun the players are having. I think a lot of times that says a lot about it. So what you said about going to watch a game, it's priceless advice for any high school kid for sure. And even junior college too that may be looking for a four-year. So all you had, like you said, was a dial-up internet. You can watch any game online now. And it's awesome. It's absolutely great for the game of baseball and all that. And like you said, with the development standpoint and getting time, we're not going to over-recruit. We're not going to do that. So every guy that's there, they come in like, hey, it's valuable. We brought you in for a reason. And if you're not where we want you to be, that's our job to get you where we need you to be. And your job to move that along. So the development is a high aspect of what we are. Because there is some of the little bit of differences between our level and, say, the Power Five. It's a little less polished guy, but that's a guy that you keep rubbing and rubbing, and all of a sudden it turns into a diamond. You've got a really special player. No doubt. No doubt. Yeah. And in terms of seeing player development and think about your own career and your own development course, you won an SEC championship. You got plenty of time on the mound at Mississippi State over your couple of years there, a few years there. Two, actually, yeah, because you were at Logan for the two. And then William Carey, you obviously went to the World Series this year. You've been able to be a part of a lot of guys' careers, mentoring them that have made it to professional baseball, major league draft picks, et cetera. First, I guess, what have you seen that has made teams or individuals be successful? And then, B, kind of a personal question, which I know you're probably not a guy that probably would want to answer, but what would you be most proud of in terms of something that you've seen successful, whether it's an individual accomplishment, seeing one of your bobbleheads on eBay from IndieBall or whatever it might be, just anything along those terms of success, and then something that you feel like, man, that was really cool. I'm really glad I was a part of that. Well, first of all, I'm not at the Josh Rebent level where I have my own bobblehead yet, so I'm not there. But yeah, no. Golly, where does that start? One of the things is it's really, really fun watching guys take hold of it, watching guys develop and do that. Of course, you're always excited when a guy that you coach or have a little bit, a very little part of their journey get to try to accomplish their dream. I'm rooting for four of them right now that we had in junior college and here at William Carey, and so it's fun keeping up with them post and learning and how it is. You appreciate it a little bit more because you ask them, all right, what's going on? They're like, man, I got to figure it out. So that's part of the teaching where we are. You're trying to lead them into a level of learning themselves and trying to figure it out as we go. I'm here as a soundboard, and we're trying to teach, especially in the early stages, I'm going to be a little more hands-off, but as we get moving and you're out there on the mound by yourself, it's time for you to be able to figure that out. I think that helps our guys along the way as they progress. I don't know what it is, but there's guys that end up doing really well, and you're like, oh, hey, what was it? And they'll be, oh, it's this, and you don't even remember what it was, but somehow and sometimes. What I really like about our guys are the groups that have been teams that win. They're really close-knit. The culture is really strong, and usually it's a learning group, especially some of the best pitching staffs off-coast. They're wanting to learn. They're eager. I don't mind them sending me a clip at 9 30 at night saying, what do you think about this? Okay, well, some of it works, some of it doesn't, because with the age of tread, athletics, driveline, I'm sure I'm missing a couple Florida baseball rants and stuff. You got to keep up with that, and there may be some things I don't agree with, but they're looking. They're watching and doing all that, so being ahead of all that, trying to move forward. We're in the golden age of pitching. I wish we would have had half this stuff when I was playing. Even when you were playing, I wish we would have had some of this stuff that was just now coming out, because it really helps with the development side, and they buy into it a lot easier. No doubt, no doubt. Yeah, they can see it visually, as opposed to trying to guesstimate what you're actually seeing. Yeah, absolutely. Let's take it in terms of coaching. What's your pinnacle of, so far, something you've been really proud of? Man, I don't know. There's just a lot of things. Of course, the championships, but again, I think you'll be right along there. If you take care of the little things, day-to-day, the championships seem to come with themselves. Proud of the one that we won, conference tournament that we won a couple years ago. That was a lot of fun. Went through it, 3-0, 4-0. It was during COVID, so we got shut down, started up, all that. A lot of difficulties, but had a veteran group, guys that come together, and then we end up going 4-0 through it and winning the conference tournament. That was a lot of fun. First one in a while, at least since they've been back in the SAC, and then, of course, we win the conference tournament the next year, and then the regular season this past year. I don't know. They're all just... The journey's fun, to lay it down into one accomplishment. Proud of a lot of guys who developed. We had a guy, junior college, he was recruited a little bit, but not much. He's an incredibly hard worker. Ended up being Conference Pitcher of the Year this past year. A lot of that's him buying into doing a lot of things and owning it. You get proud. You're just proud of guys like that. The guy that was Player of the Year, he's a hard worker. If I continue to do this, I'm going to leave... Yeah, you'll forget some guys, yeah. Just fun to see the journey. It was a lot of fun coaching the Niagara Power and watching you guys go back to school and really do well. I think one of the guys I remember most, Tim Cole. I think he's doing FCA up in Alaska now. He was a guy that struggled a little bit, figured it out in Niagara, and he goes back and has a fantastic year. Guys like that, it's fun. Yeah. Well, you mentioned the journey. That's about exactly what I thought you would say, because you're definitely a day-by-day type guy. Yeah, that was about exactly what I thought you would say. You also mentioned something about a strong, tight culture. Can you define that for what that means for you and what you think that... When you see a team that's strong and tight, what does that mean? What does that look like? I mean, it's going to be... It's almost like a brother, like a group of brothers. You're going to have a little bit of fighting. There's going to be gripping and stuff. You're going to have your little ones, but you're able to come through that. You're able to push through it. Everybody's on the same page, like in the weight room, on the field, stuff like that. It's fun watching guys buy into the process. When they do that, you know the system works. When they buy into that and that culture of winning, that culture of doing your best every possible chance that you can and trying to get better every day, that's a tough, tough culture to beat and tough to get through. I've been very fortunate to be a part of a lot of winning programs where that culture, you didn't really have... There's not a whole lot of input you have on the culture, but you see it and you know this is what you want to be a part of. That was definitely something at Logan and Mississippi State and on down the line at UT Martin in one year and Delta State. It's a culture we try to imply at Mississippi. You're trying to create a new culture at Mississippi Gulf Coast. Then now with William Carey, history of winning. You're just trying day in, day out. It's a group of guys pushing the same direction, I guess, in short answer. Even though they may be grumbling, they're going with it. They're not eating dirt, like you said, but they're moving in the same direction and willing to do the things it takes to do what they need to do. Yeah, maybe eating celery to lower the inflammation. Hey, that is still one of those things that I preach. You put the peanut butter in there for the protein. That's a lot easier. That's right. That's right. And set a log. I'll never forget that. Speaking of Niagara Power Days, one of the thoughts that I had, which this wasn't something I thought about sending to you beforehand, but you coached our team in 2010. I think you were the pitching coach for us. No, 2009. Yeah. And then 2010, you were our head coach. And then 2011, you took the team to the playoffs for the first time in franchise history as a field manager. You had had one year as an assistant and one year as a head coach already before having the most wins in Niagara Power history and taking the team to the playoffs, which I wasn't, unfortunately, a part of. I had aged out of the league. I don't know if I could have gotten an inning on the playoff team anyways. In your observation over those first couple of years, what types of changes or what were you noticing of like, man, this needs to change to get this team to the playoffs in the New York Collegiate Baseball League? Well, it was a sense of the way about it that we went trying to bring guys in. It was one that talking with Cal and being like, all right, what if we reached out to these... It's an untapped market. It was before like with you guys. It was reaching out there, seeing if anybody wants to play, and hopefully somebody finds us and comes along. And so basically what I spent a year, all that fall, all that spring, trying to reach out, finding guys. It takes a long process to get guys to buy into it being a mission trip. They see the, oh, I got to raise so much money. But if you sit there and say, look, it's a two-month mission trip and your chance to play baseball. Really, the other thing too, in 2009, we had what we would call people that were Christians, but not everybody, again, on the same page. And so getting guys that fit with what we were trying to do and understood the mission really, I think, made a difference in 2010. And then we were able to keep some of those guys and add on to it in 2011. Of course, I would have loved to have you on that 2011 squad, just because simply you've gone through, you went through the dark days too, and seeing that through and just buying into it and trying to buy that into a culture in a place that was not wanting to hear about Jesus. I remember the article, shut up and play baseball. I don't want to hear it, shut up and just play baseball. Yeah, the Niagara Gazette and the Buffalo News, they were not all about it for sure. No, they weren't. And the year that we ended up making the playoffs, I ended up seeing that guy who wrote that article in church. And he was just like, look, I get it. And that was, it almost was like Cal was like, this is why we do it. This is the reason we do what we do. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. And what you said, it starts at the recruiting process, finding the right people to surround yourself with that are going to be the right fit for that mission, that team, that organization. I think that's the big part for sure. And then once you got into the season in 2011, did you manage things any way differently in 2011 than what you had in 2010? Intentionally, I should say, like going into 2011, was there anything that you can recall that was like, man, I want to really implement this in 2011 and that you noticed that helped spin the wheels continually, even though finding the right people has a huge part to do with it? Well, I mean, I had, you know, Garrett Shiloh was, I think he's one of the best base running guys there was at the time. And just kind of letting him take over a little bit, part of that aspect, giving up a little bit of that. I remember we started off like two and nine that year. And I remember sitting in Tim Horton's, you know, being like, look, I don't know what else to do. Like, you know, I feel like we have the best team we've ever had. And we're two and nine. Like I'm frustrated. And, and, you know, I remember him saying, like, you prayed about this team, right? And I was like, yeah, he goes, well, then let God do with this team that you want him to do. And, you know, the amazing thing about that team was almost like an angels in the outfield type thing. Cause we, we, we, we won, we went two and two in a stretch where we made 44 errors combined in those four games. And, you know, like we won two of those games and how do you do that? You know? And, and so like, I, it was at that moment, I fully was like, all right, I trust God that he's got something big coming here. And, you know, so the intentional part was, you know, there's always the baseball aspect side of it, but the, again, the intentional was the relationships building into the guys and, you know, just trying to get them to believe there's something much greater than just playing Geneva or Elmira or, you know, Rochester. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. No, that's really, really cool. What in terms of like first impressions, go back real quick to like Juco division one, even summer collegiate baseball, you played in the Northwoods league coach in the New York collegiate baseball league. Any first impressions, like what I had at Emory, where I was like, wow, like something that blew you away at any of those levels or Indy ball. I mean, any of it was, I think it's just every level that you go up, you know, I remember first fall scrimmage that we have, you know, one of my best friends just talked to me tonight, he had to nuke off the scoreboard off me. And I remember him running down first, welcome to college freshmen, you know, like, oh, I can't get away with that. You know what I used to in high school until you got to develop that fourth pitch or third pitch. And, you know, that was fun. Of course, you know, Mississippi state, it was, I mean, the strike zones got a lot smaller than they did at the Juco level, even back then. And, you know, it just, the difference between a guy taking a pitch and not taking a pitch that was, that was a tough thing for me to adjust to early, you know, as a pitch that I would always get a swing and miss on that. Now all of a sudden that hitters, you know, disciplined and, and, you know, five, six years later, you figure out why they're in the big leagues, you know, he just saw it way better than most other people did. And same thing in Indy ball, you know, you, you, you go, you get up in that level. And again, you, you think, okay, well, I pitched in the SEC, this will be easy. And of course, guys are ripping baseballs left and right. And you're just like, all right, well, you know, it's, it's another level trying to figure it out and, you know, trying to survive. And I'm, I guess I never figured that one out how to survive. Or again, sometimes you just don't have the talent. You know, I wasn't good enough to move forward in there. So, yeah. Yeah. Can you share your story about your first day in Indy ball? I do. And if you want to hear some good stories, I hope you don't mind that Shelby and his backroads podcast. It's that's where I got this one from. Yeah. See, I signed with them. And that day I was going up there, I'm living at home. And, you know, I wake up that morning, excited, ready to go. And all of a sudden, there's this stink going throughout the house. And I'm, you know, like, it's just a smell that you can't describe. And I'm asking mom and dad, I'm like, what's going on? Like, well, we let the dog out this morning. She got into a skunk. And so we're trying to get her cleaned. And I'm just thinking, you got to be kidding, this is the first day of my professional career. And I'm going to smell like a skunk walking in, you know, and so I have like a 45 minute hour drive up to Gateway Grizzly Stadium. You know, I made the joke of, you know, rubbing myself with air freshener, because that's, you know, smelling like a pine tree sure is a lot better than smelling like a skunk. And so, you know, I get to the clubhouse, get my stuff, and our clubby Manzo, you know, I kind of feel him, I was like, man, me, like, my dog got into a skunk. Like, I don't know what else to do. He's like, well, you know, you can hit the shower here and all that and put these new clothes on. I was like, all right, good. And so, you know, being a hayseed and independent ball, what I thought was, all right, I signed the contract, they're going to let me settle in the night, get comfortable, and let's go. No, that was not the case. It was, hey, you're in. And it wasn't just you're in, it's bases loaded, nobody out, you're in type stuff, you know. And you're just thinking, really, what's going on? I remember one teammate said, it's just how it works. You know, this is how it is. You sign that day, they're going to see, you know, they're not going to waste any money on you if you can't get it done. And so, you know, I came from Mississippi State, you know, coming from an SEC tournament championship and, you know, just that mentality of everything matters, you know. And I guess I'll never forget, he hands me the ball and I said, all right. And the catcher just looks at me like, hey, these aren't your runs. And I'm like, okay, what does that mean? He goes, they score, they score. And I'm like, we're down just a handful of runs here. Like, we can get out of this and win this game. He's like, they're not your runs, who cares? And so, I'm just, I remember, I'm just baffled. I know I left the first pitch right down the middle and I think it was still because I was baffled. Like, wait, what? Like, hold on, so there's a left-handed batter 297 feet down the line, he hits a 296, breathe easy and, you know, sacrifice wide, scores that guy's run. I'm like, man, my bad. Like, those are your numbers. Like, those are your runs. You know, like, but I just, that was a completely different mentality for me going from that to pro ball of, you know, it's from a team aspect to it's all about me. And that took a long time to adjust. And I don't know if I truly adjusted that because, you know, in my mindset the whole time, I was like, hey, we're winning, you know, hey, you're 86, so you're not going to be winning much longer. Well, that's also a part of your personality too. Like, you know, that is what makes you who you are is that just because it's somebody else's runs doesn't mean you want to give them up. Like, your first thought is, no, we got you, it's still in this game. Like, I'm going to try and get us out of this thing. Yeah, I think that's huge. And talking about impressions at the next level, so this is what you mentioned about first day there, they hand you the ball, base is loaded situation. I oftentimes do the same thing with our players in Traverse City. And we're a summer collegiate team, but a guy gets done with their conference tournament, regional, super regional, World Series, whatever, they drive in or fly into Traverse City, I double check with them and say, hey, you feel good to get in the lineup today? And I think I've had 99% success rate because what kid's going to tell his manager, no, I don't want to play. So usually that first day somebody shows up, we put them in the lineup and just get their feet wet. And my philosophy on it is, it's a win-win because A, they're going to feel like they're more part of the team. B, if they get a couple of big hits, they're best friends with everybody in the locker room immediately. Or if you're a pitcher and you come in and get a big strikeout, like immediately. And that's what I feel like helps breed some culture within your team is getting guys acclimated as quickly as possible. Do you have anything else like that, that you experienced like at IndyBall or even your time in the Northwoods League or at Mississippi State, which Mississippi State, obviously you got a whole fall to kind of prepare for things. But is there anything that in terms of like immediate, making guys feel welcome into the clubhouse that you kind of felt at any of those levels? Um, you know, Johnny Logan is probably the first place, you know, they had a bunch of, you know, a bunch of returning sophomores and, you know, it was almost like, all right, sink or swim with us, you know, um, you're either with us or you're not. And I think that was a great, it was great for me because, you know, I mean, it's sense of family and all that coming off a really good high school season. I think we were 24 and four or something like that. And I'm a game away from state and, you know, so you feel good and you're going into another winning culture and it was like that. Um, you know, Mississippi State, I never felt unwelcome by my teammates. Um, the joke I always had was I didn't think that the people down there really thought I wasn't a true Yankee or there for Mississippi State until my first outing, which happened to be against the University of Illinois. And my first batter I faced at Mississippi State was my roommate in junior college. And so, you know, it wasn't until like I got the win and that in four and two thirds of relief in that game that I really thought that maybe the fans were like, okay, like he's not gonna destroy Mississippi State baseball just because he's from Illinois. You know, I never felt that from my teammates, but the fans, you know, I don't really know, but yeah, it was, it was after that. It was like, okay, everything's fine. But, um, you know, I bounced around to five different teams and pro ball and, you know, it really is about the individual getting, getting involved too. You know, how involved do you want to be? Do you want to be involved with it or do you just want to sit on the side? And there's a lot of times I'll sit back, evaluate, and then move forward with it because I mean, you want to understand who's, who's pulling in the direction you want to go. And pro ball is a lot different because, you know, it is a lot of me, me, me guys. And I tend to lean towards the veterans in that because they were the guys trying to get back to where they were, you know, trying to get back to the big leagues, trying to get back to triple a. So it was like, I want to be around guys who are on that kind of mission. And so that was easy for me to be involved with them because they're, you know, they want guys that have pulled in that mission. And, uh, you know, even this year's team at, at William Carey, we brought in, I think, eight new guys. We lost three, you know, it's a world series team. And so it's from day one, the mission, you know, um, our, our best players are some of our hardest workers. And that's the mission that they said that you're either doing it this way or, you know, like we will leave you behind. And like you said, you don't want to be left behind. If you're, if you're a team guy, like you don't want to be left behind. And so it's, it's really elevated everything this fall. Love that. Love that. Yeah. It's definitely the tone that's set by the players. And it goes back to what you said with Niagara and recruiting the players that want to be there. Um, you know, I struggle with that too, in the Northwoods league, not every guy wants to play 72 games in 76 days. It's a lot of baseball, but what a lot of guys don't realize as well is that if you want to play at the minor league or major league level, you're going to have to play your 56 games of college baseball, plus maybe your eight postseason games, or if you make a world series run more than that, and then go play another 50 to 55 in the summer. So let's say you're at 130, you're still not even at 140 game full minor league schedule yet. And, uh, so you really got to find the guys that love the game that want to be there. And we've been fortunate. I would say the majority of our guys have done a really good job with it. Obviously at some points during the summer, there's the dog days, which there's the dog days in, in minor league baseball as well. Um, which it's, you know, it's very real, but you got to have people around you. They're going to keep you accountable that are going to set the tone that really want. And that's where I, I feel like having returners that come back to Traverse city is it's a statement piece in its own, because those guys, they aren't going to come back unless they, they know what they're, they know what the Northwood league season is. They know it's every night. And, uh, so when you have, you know, eight to 10, 11 returners in a given year, the new guys are like, man, if they came back to do this again, might as well hop right on board. So, um, and, and if they don't, then, you know, they're gonna, they're gonna fake an injury or, you know, something like that and go home. And, uh, you know, my hope is that in recruiting the right guys so that we don't have to experience that very often, you know, we, we may have some outliers from time to time. Um, but the goal in the recruiting process is to work with college programs that we know they're going to send us guys that want to be there that are on, uh, you know, on board for the right reasons, and that'll stay with us the whole season. And, uh, so I think that that's been a big, a big reason is, you know, returners setting the tone, like you said. So, um, one other question. I'm working there. You guys are, uh, competing for a Northwoods title year in and year out, and that's, that's not easy to do. Well, I appreciate it. How, what, uh, you, you played in Waterloo. Is that right? I did. I played about half season. I ended up actually getting tendinitis and I was getting ready to go to Mississippi state that year. And, you know, of course, I'm sorry, I let you down. My two managers in summer ball, both ended up being big league coaches. Andy Haynes is our guy at Waterloo and he's a hidden coach for the pirates now. And, um, you know, but yeah, I mean, it was, uh, like, I am appreciative of my time there. Cause it was a grind. Like it did prepare, like we got more off days in pro ball than we did in the Northwoods league playing. And, you know, it's just like, it is a grind. I do, um, appreciate that. Cause I mean, you go on from, I mean, what, 72 games, you said. Yeah. Yeah. It's from Memorial day to mid August. And we've had it where our season has ended on a Friday night. Um, in 2021, I remember we finished the game at 10, 10 30 at night. We had a couple of guys that we said bye to in St. Cloud, Minnesota after the championship game. And they flew out of Minneapolis or they drove to their house or whatever. And they had class Monday morning. And I'm like, what in the world? Like these guys are, that's when, you know, you have guys that are committed that are there on a Friday night with the Monday start classes. And, you know, they're going to not have any time at home. We had that in 2019 as well. Um, I think we had, uh, I think it was Jake Wilson from Bowling Green state. I think they started the Monday after him, same thing we finished on a Friday night. And again, it's not just our team, like teams that win in the Northwoods league that go to that championship game that happens fairly often. You will lose some guys during that playoff week. Um, just because of the nature of travel logistics and literally having to leave to be able to be in your class on Monday morning. Um, but it is really cool when you see that commitment level across the board for, for guys that want to see it all the way through. So, um, and those guys are going to be just fine in life. The guys that are that committed, whether they make it in baseball, whether they don't, those guys are going to be just fine in life because they know what commitment and loyalty means. So absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, one other quick question we're getting here close to the end, but, um, obviously running a pitching staff or running a team, which you have experience doing both, um, managing different personalities. It's definitely one of the hardest things to do in leadership when you're trying to keep everybody on the same page under that same umbrella, the same standards, the same accountability, um, but also enabling guys to feel free to be themselves. And, uh, what, what would be your secret sauce in terms of how you do that? Because I, again, when I played for you, I thought you did an incredible job with all that. Like you had structure, um, you helped kept us accountable. I remember one day we were in, I think it was, uh, Wellsville and, uh, you had a nice little chat with the pitchers out in right field before the game. And, uh, so just those types of things is what I think has enabled you to have success as a coach, uh, by just instilling accountability within your players. But, um, what would you say are things that could help anybody in any leadership spectrum that are managing different personalities? I think one, just trying to get to get to know who they are, you know, they're dealing with some stuff and, and, you know, I mean, they, especially 18 to 23 year old guys, they're, they're dealing with a lot of things and there's some things you don't know. And so you kind of try to figure that out. I mean, if we got, if a guy is out of character one day, you know, I'm not, you're not going to, you know, um, necessarily jump all over him if it's, if he's out of character and all of a sudden, and most of the time that's happened, like they'll come back next day. Sorry, coach, you know, such, such nuts happened or, Hey, you know, my, my dad was in a bad wreck. You know, there's a lot of things they're dealing with that you don't necessarily know. And so, you know, we have 21 pitchers this fall and, you know, a couple of guys coming back and, and, you know, just trying to learn who they are, what makes them tick, what makes them go. And, um, I think that's the most important thing. And especially pitching wise, figuring them out and teaching them to understand who they are, because once they learn who they are, then it's a lot easier to push those buttons that get them to do what they want to do. Um, you know, you're trying to get everybody on the same page, going towards the same thing. And, you know, um, from the book, good to great, we talk about our big, hairy, audacious goal, you know, winning the national title. How do we as a pitching staff allow us to do that? And so trying to buy guys into understanding their role, no matter what it is, like it, it's, it's easy, it's, it's difficult, you know, like everybody wants to have 90 innings this year, where there's only 450 innings to be available or 500 innings, you know, how, how, how are those innings? What can you do to allow us to, to give you a percentage of those innings that are going to allow us to be the best? And, um, ultimately the better I know a player, the more I understand what makes him tick, the more that he's going to work, the more we're going to be able to get out of him. And there's cases where that just doesn't happen all the time, but then, you know, of course we evolve over time. You know, I'm not the same guy, same pitching guy was now as I was 10 years ago, 15 years ago. And sometimes that, you know, like it disappoints me, you know, I wish I could have been that guy for those guys 10 years ago, 12 years ago, but you know, I'm also glad that I'm here. And it also saddens me too, that what I'm going to be in five years, isn't who I am now. And, you know, and I'd be like, oh man, that would have worked for him, you know, and, and, and all that. But, um, just understanding, keeping everybody again, moving towards the same page. And it's a little easier pitching wise, dealing with a guy that doesn't quite get, you know, innings all the time. Cause I mean, there are, the understanding is there's one guy getting that inning at that time. And, and, you know, what can you do to help us if that guy doesn't get, get it done? And so, um, so what about practical? Like, so you obviously have that, like getting guys on the same page on a weekly basis. What are you doing with your pitching staff in terms of the chats that you have with them? Or are you guys, um, you know, doing anything as a pitching staff that's continuing to reinforce that on a week by week or monthly type basis, or even in season game by game or weekend by weekend? No, what we're going to do is, I mean, early throughout the morning, like of course, NAI, there's not an hours restriction or whatever, but you know, it's working around class classes. We're going to try to work some guys in, get our early work in stuff like that to where some guys have some development stuff that we're going to try. And then that way during the practice is more of a, a team focused type thing. And usually what I try to do is set out the week, what we're going to do that week. What's, what's the plan. Of course, things change and stuff like that. And of course, each guy, now that we're almost three weeks deep into practice, you know, it starts to become more individualized for that guy. The more we understand newer guys are starting to, you know, have their own plans in a, in a sense like that. And so, I mean, there's nothing, you know, I wish there was some magical formula I could say that, you know, we could do, cause then I could do it every day too, you know? Right, right. So, you know, biblically every day has its own, his own trials and issues. And so all we're trying to do is figure out what that guy needs to do to make him the best that day. And if we can be 1% better, you know, that's what we're trying to do every day. So I don't know if that answers the question or whatever. No, I think it's real. It's very real. Like I, and you talk about the individual and letting that kind of sometimes dictate the course is going to be what's most beneficial. Cause the more that you learn about that individual, you're figuring out what's going to make them tick. You're going to figure out, you know, development wise, what they actually need, whether, you know, from a pitching standpoint, it might be more mobility, it might be more arm strength and it might be more mechanical based. It might be more mental based. So like you said, I think it's, yeah, just really practical and taking it week by week. But I didn't know, yeah, if you had any, any secret sauce that the whole, the whole world could benefit from. So. Yeah. I mean, it's day by day, you know, and I think, and I'm thankful for coaching middle school that way. Cause you know, like there's no way to, to understand that you have a plan set forth and that plan is not going to go as, as if, you know, like, like teaching and coaching middle school. And so I think that kind of helped me along the way to be a little more flexible. Like, of course you have a plan, what you want to do for that day. And some days it works that day. And a lot of days you're going off path and you know, there's, and we're coaching more than that, than the player that sells. So there's been a lot of times where a guy like, well, we'll start talking about faith. You know, he asked a question and then, you know, we, we spent a whole other work one time talking about a little bit theology and, you know, and sitting there saying, oh, you know, part of my mind's like, man, we wasted this time. But then I was like, no, no, we didn't waste anything right there. We, you know, far greater things were accomplished today than learning how to throw a cutter, you know, a little bit harder today. Right. Yep. Yep. I've, I've ran into that too, before I, you know, sometimes show up on the Northridge league, we play every day. So you show up on in the morning or early afternoon to the office and you, you know, I'm thinking in my mind, I'm like, I got to do A, B, C, D, E, F, G, you know, whatever to get ready for the day and walk in. One of the players is there incredibly early and coach, what do you think about predestination? And I'm like, man, how much time do I have? This is, this is probably way more important than anything else I got going on. Yes. But yeah, like you said, you can plan, plan, plan, but there, you know, it's like being a, you know, offensive coordinator, a quarterback, you got to be able to call audibles and, and adjust. And I think that's a big component of life. And even as a parent too, you know, we can have plans for, you know, our kids and how we want the day to go. And, you know, we may have, you know, a great day planned with our wife and kids and, you know, then the baby is pooping as you go out the door and you're running 20 minutes behind or whatever. But being able to adjust on a day-by-day base. And I think I told you in our first try of recording this a few days ago, I'm now giving instruction for some youth baseball players. And that's really, I've been doing it over the course of the last few years, but like even more so, I guess, intently maybe over the past, the past couple of weeks, just kind of starting up here. And it's reminded me how important that the fundamentals of the game are and teaching the youth players, the basics of throwing the basics of, you know, any of that, before you even get into pitching mechanics or, you know, anything like that, like there is a very fine line of learning how to, to coach youth. But like you said, you can have a plan to teach them one way that day, but it may go completely off the rail. So you got to be able to adjust on the fly. And I think that that can help us a lot as, as coaches with the guys that we're coaching at the college level as well. For sure. Cool. Well, any other, any other final thoughts from you? No, nothing. I think I've spent enough time on here and done enough for you, but no. It's been so good, man. Yeah, I really appreciate your time and connecting and sharing about your experiences. Like I said at the beginning, it's really cool to see where obviously your coaching career is now, but also how you got there with all the guys that you've worked with or played for. Just a really cool, unique path to where you are. And as you mentioned too, it's, you know, God leading the way and being willing to follow in, in his direction, his will for our lives. And that makes all the difference. If we know we're living in his will, you know, we're, we're on the right track. So appreciate you a lot. Ultimately we're baseball coaches, but we're just, I mean, our job is the great commission and just blessed that I can do baseball and be able to get in there with guys and, you know, you know, use this platform to, to share the great commission with them. Couldn't have said it any better, man. Appreciate you so much. Thanks for joining us on this week's episode of the Unparalleled Performance Podcast. And if you enjoyed it, please share with those around you. We'll see you next week and go dominate your day.