Goth draft

In this podcast, the hosts discuss various topics, including films, goth music, and the band The Cure. They mention watching movies like Barbie and Oppenheimer, and share their thoughts on goth culture and fashion. The guest speaker, Ryan Schaaf, talks about his love for goth music and how he got into it. They also touch on the early influences of goth music and the versatility of The Cure as a band. Overall, they have a lighthearted and informative conversation about these topics. Oh hang on, yeah, what are we calling this podcast? Was it Over Under Rated? Over Under Rated. Over Under Rated. Over Under Rated. Over Under Rated. Over Under Rated. Welcome to another episode of Over Under Rated. Welcome to another episode of Over Under Rated with Babs and Fran. I am Babs and joining me as ever is my co-host Fran. How are you today, Fran? Hello everyone in the podcast world. I am fine on a semi-sunny day in England and I believe you've just been to see a film, Babs. I have just gone to see Barbie the Movie. I'm wearing pink eyeshadow and a rainbow dress, very unlike me, but yeah, it was really, really good, really funny. Ryan Gosling needs that Oscar and the music was really fantastic and well put into the film, I thought, as well. Obviously, it finished with the new version of Barbie Girl by Nicki Minaj and by Spice. Yeah, I'd recommend it to anyone and like really so much more hilarious than I thought it would be. But you saw another film. I love my iHeard. I saw Oppenheimer. Not as many pop songs, to be fair. No bangers? Not many bangers, but I definitely want to watch. And we're going to be discussing filmic artists who... Some gloomier music. Gloomy, who've also been featured in many soundtracks. We are doing a goth episode, are we not? We are doing a goth episode and we're not alone. We are joined by someone who, I don't know if they describe themselves as a goth or goth adjacent. Maybe you can tell us. It's Ryan Schaaf from the Britain Record Lab. Hello there. Hi, Ryan. Yes. I wouldn't call myself a goth at all. I would say that I love goth music, but I have a hard time going out in public wearing some of the stuff that goths wear. So I wouldn't identify as a goth, but I love a lot of goth things, movies, literature, music. I appreciate the fashion, but I can't pull it off. There's levels to it, right? You know, there's the classic wearing all black and then there's all the intricate face makeup, especially. Fran, I know that you are more of a kind of dress up kind of person. Have you done a particularly gothy outfit any time? No, I've not done much backcombing or crucifixes, to be fair. I've done like zombie adamant, but yeah, I've not done the chrome as yet. I think I need to be a lot skinnier to be able to pull it off, to be fair. Listen, I've just gone to Barbie, the film. Barbie is for everyone. Goth is for everyone too. This could be true. Babs, have you had a goth period? No, not really. I have the profile. I have a perfect profile for a goth because I have dark hair, dark eyes and pale skin. So I would be perfect for just, you know, just a dabbing of powder. But no, I think I'm someone who, especially as a teenager, wore more black clothes. But I was more into, let's say, like rock rather than goth specifically. And I think especially the bands that are associated with goth, which I'm sure we'll mention more than once, but like Susie and the Banshees and Joy Division and all that. I mean, some I didn't get into until I was an adult, like Susie and the Banshees, I really only got into, I don't know, five, six years ago. And others I was like, oh, I can appreciate the gloominess and I will be a sad teenager in my room. But yeah. But how about you, Ryan? What started it for you? So I've always been drawn to darker music. And I think it started off with like gothic metal. I got really into bands like Typo Negative and the 69 Eyes and groups like that. And then I started to discover The Cure and Susie and the Banshees probably like late high school. Early college, though, is when it really blew up. So about, I'd say about 15 years ago or so, that's when I really started getting into goth music. And it's kind of cliche to say this, but one of the big reasons was going through an emotional time and relationship issues. And that's kind of what propelled me towards this kind of music. And I'm sure that's the case for many people. It's kind of a go-to response for, hey, why'd you get into this dark, gothy music? Well, my girlfriend broke up with me or my boyfriend broke up with me. That's kind of what happened. But I had always been interested in that kind of music, even before when I was a little bit younger. So middle school, I'd say, is when I when I started listening to what you could call goth music. Were you one of the only people into that genre or were there other people around you who were also into that? Was it friends that got you into it? I kind of found it by myself. Most of my friends were listening to like nu metal and metalcore and punk. And so I kind of found the goth music on my own. And even to this day, like I have friends who who listen to it, but I would say even to this day, I'm pretty much the only make friend person who in my group who is really, really into it. And so like I have friends who obviously like The Cure and Suzie and the Banshees, but they probably don't know who the other band we're going to talk about today is XMAL Deutschland, right? Or groups like, you know, Corpus Dei or whatever. They don't know these groups. So it's kind of one of those things where I got super into it and I started like researching everything I could about it. And all my other friends were like, yeah, it's pretty cool. You know, I think you're in the company of two other obsessives we can identify. Yeah, yeah. Were you into kind of goth music at all? Because I mean, I was in the UK as a teenager, but you're a little bit older than me. I feel like it started more in the 80s. Were there more local goths in your area or anything? I think where I live, if there was a goth, everyone would stare at them. So it's rare to see a goth in the 90s. But I guess I like gothy bands like Percebo and The Cure and I guess Strip Music and some dark bands like Joy Division. But I would never call myself a goth. I've never gone to a goth club. It's just, I guess, I guess alternative 80s has a lot of gothic bands like Sister of Mercy. So I'm a fan because I like the mixture of a harder guitar along with synths. And that seems to be a lot of the core sound a lot with bands. So yeah, but I have never heard of the band we're discussing later on. I know The Cure and I'm sure we'll be talking about The Cure very soon. Indeed. I will say that I really enjoyed reading in quite length and detail the Gothic Rock Wikipedia article, because I found especially interesting was what they said were the early influences because there was a music journalist called The Doors Gothic, which I was like, what? And then you think about it, but you're like, okay, fair enough, because it was psychedelic, but it was very dark. And he was talking about it's the kind of themes of violence mixed with a kind of psychedelic element. And yeah, they were saying that people like, yeah, Bowie, you know, and Iggy Pop influence goth. And I was like, what? But again, I guess in the music experimentalism sense, you know, it was and I also found intriguing that Nico was in Velvet Underground and Nico, they said that her album, The Marble Index was considered the first goth album, but then it might also be Bela Lugosi's Dead by Bauhaus. So, yeah, it was interesting to see how there's not any clear kind of definition of it, even though, yeah, there's, like you said, the synths and the guitars, some gloomy themes. So, yeah, very, it was very fun to read up on it. Overrated. So, yeah, Ryan, do you want to introduce the first band we're discussing in my opinion? Yeah, so, well, OK, so I am going to be defending this band. I think you're right. The Cure are, if you were to ask me, what are your top five favorite groups of all time? They're in that, they're in the top five for me. And who's the other four, out of curiosity, if it comes to your head? I'd probably have to pick Soundgarden. I'm a huge Bowie fan. I know you guys covered Bowie. Mm hmm. I do love The Doors. And I also really like, I love Black Sabbath. So those are some of my favorite bands. I'd have to really think about what the top five would be for sure, but I know The Cure are in there, 100%. OK, interesting. Interesting list, yep. Here's why I don't think that they're overrated. So, for me, I think The Cure are one of those groups who unfortunately get boxed into a specific category, which is goth in this case, but they're much more than that. And if you listen to their catalog, you find that they not only do, not only do their albums change and evolve from one style to another, like if you listen to Pornography, for example, which is probably their darkest album, and then listen to the one right after it, which is called The Top. It's this trippy, psychedelic, poppy album. It's kind of a statement to, I would say, the band, but mainly Robert Smith's versatility as a songwriter. They can make you feel a wide range of emotions from laughter to sadness. There's a humor to this band. They don't always take themselves very seriously. I think goths tend to think that they do, but there's a lot of humor even in their darker moments. I think that they can give you a lot of different feelings. It doesn't matter what the time is, how you're feeling. There's sunny songs, there's moody songs. There's a lot of versatility there. Excellent opening defense. A lot of goth bands kind of stick to the same formula. They kind of pick this droney, kind of gloomy, dark tone, and they just kind of run with it. That's what they do for every album. The Cure didn't do that. The Cure were like, yeah, we'll have a kind of gloomy album here, but then let's do something trippy. Let's kind of do something a little bit more alternative. They were able to do a lot of different things. I know their best songs or their hit songs that are on the radio all the time, songs like Friday I'm in Love and Just Like Heaven, those don't sound very gloomy or gothy. You can tell that this band is able to do more than just what they're kind of, I guess, categorized as. I would say their hit songs, those songs aren't even their best songs. Those aren't even the songs I really like. I'm kind of tired of Just Like Heaven, to be honest. I've heard it. Yeah, it's on all the time. It's probably on right now somewhere. And it doesn't really represent their career. I think that the songs that are really popular tend to show them kind of as this heartbreak band or a band to listen to when you're in love or whatever. But honestly, some of their best songs are never played at all. And so I think that's kind of the hallmark of a great band, too, is when their hits are not even their best songs and their best songs are their deeper catalog because they have so much material to choose from. That's I think that's a that's another testament to just how varied they are and how much they have to work with. Frank, you know more of The Cure's catalog than I do. Yeah, I think two or three times I've done a deep dive of listening to every single album by The Cure. How many are there, roughly? Like 20? 60? Well, like 14 or something. I don't know. Yeah, I've not listened to The Glove, which is like a side project with Suits and the Banshees. But I think I own the first album I bought was random. I bought like the B-side collection with like random songs and the songs from the soundtracks. I think I only own the best of them now. I don't own any physical albums. I've never found a Pure album I would say I love. I guess people would say Pornography, Disintegration and The Head on the Door were the three biggest albums. But yeah, I struggle to adore any Cure albums. I like a lot of songs scattered across their back catalog. So I see them live twice. And, you know, 2018 at Hyde Park was perfect. They played every single song I wanted to hear, including Burn, and it was perfect. But the first time I went to see them was 2009. And he just did the decision of going back to basics with no keyboardist. And The Cure have a lot of keyboard sounds. So hearing Love Cat without a keyboard is not the same thing at all. And also it is one of those three hour gigs when they play a lot of songs I had never heard. And I swear for an hour I was just like staring at them. So it was not a good experience. Thank heavens they did Hyde Park and they played every single song I want because that was very different. And I think that's quite common for Cure gigs. They can do like three hour gigs and go really deep, can't they? I will say at the end, I think everyone derates it, but I adore The Cure at their best. They're one of the best bands ever. And even Robert Smith wouldn't describe his band as a goth band. I think he said that we fell through the goth net because we've got a sense of humour. And I love Mozart, Cocteau Twins and Paul Abdul. It would be very dull to be into one genre. And I think half of it is just his appearance. If he wore a white silk suit and had blonde hair, people wouldn't be calling them a goth band because they probably had maybe two or three albums you could even deem as being goth, I guess. Is it the trilogy? Is it like Pornography, Since Grace and the Bloodflowers? They seem to be linked together. Right. Maybe even Phase Two, possibly. Yeah. But yeah, as you said, the top's like a weird, almost photo album, lots of people, experiments. And Kiss Kiss Kiss is basically a pure double top album. And then in the 90s, they started to do like dance music. So, you know, yeah, to me, I think it's unfair to call them a goth band. I think that's lazy because, obviously, his look. Do you know how he got his look, guys? No, I actually don't. So when he was in Suzie and the Banshees, when they sacked half, or either half the band left or sacked half the band, he became their guitar player while secure supporting. So he was doing both bands at the same time. And he was experimenting with harder drugs. And he found Suzie's makeup kit. And then when he looked at himself, he enjoyed it. And that's where he came from. So because he's in the Banshees, he also started to wear similar clothes. That's where he started to wear black more. Because before then, like, the Chords didn't have a style. That's like three guys. And yeah, so that's where the Robert Smith look came from. And apparently his wife, Mary Paul, enjoyed him in lipstick. So he thought, okay, that's a great story. I love that story. He just was high on drugs and found Suzie's makeup kit. That's, that's awesome. Yeah, I had no idea. There's such strong links between Suzie and The Cure that don't make sense. And I think you've both kind of answered my question of why would I consider the goth band because I never really understood that. Because from this I know, if anything, it was more New Wave to me than goth. But yeah, like I said, I know even less than a brand. So my, I think, introduction to The Cure was my mum buying The Greatest Hits album, which came out in 2001, I think. And as with many Greatest Hits albums that I have, I didn't even listen to all of that. In fact, one of the songs that you picked, I was like, I don't know this song. And then they played and I was like, oh, I know this. And I know this from The Greatest Hits album, but it's just not one that I listen to as much. And I think, yeah, The Cure songs I like, I really like. My two favourites are A Forest and Lullaby, and they're fairly big songs. When I don't like them, I really don't like them. It's just not for me, basically. And I find that because they have this, you know, frighteningly big black catalogue, 13 studio albums, by the way, I looked it up, I never really know where to start. I think I did try to venture into Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me, and I really liked The Kiss. But it's a bit like with David Bowie, where I will listen to a Cure song somewhere, somehow, either on God's Jukebox, the music, social music platform, or someone will recommend me a song and I'll save them. And I looked today and I have about like 14 different Cure songs saved. But if they're not the ones that I know from that Greatest Hits album, I actually don't go back to them that often. And I've always been sure that there's more to like, even if there is some stuff that I didn't like. So yeah, I really am glad we're discussing them today. And before we get into it, Ryan, I just wanted to ask how, with such a big black catalogue, what was your rationale for making this playlist? Because it isn't just, okay, there's one song and then it's definitely kind of the purebred sound. But were you trying to show lesser known songs that you think should be better known, the variety of The Cure, what was your rationale? Yeah, so when I put this together, my rationale was, well, first off, what songs do I really like that I can also share with somebody who maybe isn't as familiar with The Cure to show them kind of a variety of styles? So I wanted to include their really gothy stuff, but some of their poppier stuff, and then also kind of some of their more 90s alternative sounding stuff. So I wanted to pick a little bit of a range to show that, hey, this band is not just this way or that way. They have a multitude of layers to them. And I also, most of these songs, I would say, all of these songs are on a playlist of mine somewhere. Like these are five of my favourite Cure songs. The third one, not as much of a favourite, but I wanted to include it because I think it's kind of a very different sounding Cure than most people think of when they think of The Cure. So I wanted to include that one too, just to kind of, I guess, spice it up a bit, give it a little funk. So. Okay, spice it up indeed. What's your first pick then, Ryan? So my first pick is the song Open. And this is from the Wish album, which came out, I believe, in 92. And when I saw them live, I also saw them play a three and a half hour show, Fran. So it was, it was great though. They played everything I wanted. And this was the song they started with. And I just remember hearing it live. I'd heard it before on CD many times, but hearing it live, it was just like, oh man, this is a great opener. And I think that this song is, it's not particularly well known. I wouldn't call it a hit, but I just like how the song kind of builds to the vocals and to Robert Smith just kind of comes in after about a minute. And it kind of, I think that's something The Cure do really well is they don't just start off right away with the vocals. They kind of give you this kind of atmosphere, this little build before Robert comes in. And I also like this dark psychedelic sound that it has to it. It's kind of got an eerie guitar tone and a jangly bass. So I think this represents The Cure's ability to craft something beautiful, but also kind of slightly macabre too. Like it has this kind of spooky atmosphere to it, which I really love. Fran, I presume, did you know this song? Did you know all the songs on this playlist, I imagine? I did. Yeah, I did know all the songs. So yeah, I think Open opened when I saw them, I think. The Wish is, I guess, one of their most poppy albums. It does go up high and fly, the album I love. But then it does have these longer tracks. But yeah, it's got a kinder, sort of backing track. And then it does use this sort of flanty guitar, sort of creating atmosphere. But it's got lots of unexpected changes. Like when you have a chorus, it does have lots of changes in pace and gets back to the main flow. It's got great drums by Boris Williams, I believe. Yes. And it's especially good live on the TikTok on YouTube. I think it's about him being anxious at an industry party or something. Good question. I read a thing about alcoholism. Oh, is it? Oh, OK. Yeah, because it's basically like he's, well, all slash drinking to deal with social anxiety kind of thing. Because it is. Well, yeah, you know, the lyrics are pretty depressing. I enjoy, I wouldn't put it on especially, but I think that it's a great opener for any like live gig or I think it does. I've seen it open. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense in context. I mean, it wouldn't be a single, but again, with a lot of short songs, they do go on for quite a long time. But I think that lots of documentary, as I do. And he was a big prog rock fan in the 70s. So I think some of that is nicked into the cure. But that's a song you've heard open. It is. I think I only knew one song from this list. So I'm coming in new. I love this. And it's funny because you both talked about it opening the gigs you went to. And I've written, oh, strong opening is in the opening of the song. So clearly we can't stop punning. The beginning reminded me, and this is not the only time I'm going to say this, a Peter Hook bass line mixed with How Soon Is Now guitar, the nyow kind of coming in. And I was surprised to hear that sound. I really loved it. I liked how I put in shoegazy it was because it's sturgy, but it's light, right? Like it's not it's not too kind of that's coming in the underrated band. I like how his voice moves from high to low so you can feel the despair. And also when when you especially feel the despair in his voice and he's very high, the drum, the cymbals come crashing in. I agree with you. Like the drums are excellent. Yeah, this one I love straight away. And because it's like Fran said, you know, it takes unexpected turns. On a second listening, I got into it even more because then you start getting into the atmosphere. So, yeah, really, really good first choice. I enjoyed it. And just the lyrics, all the smiles that I wear, all the games that I play and all the drinks that I mix and I drink until I'm sick and all the faces I make and all the shakes that I throw and all the people I meet and all the words that I know. Oh, yeah, please. Yeah, really, really enjoyed reading the lyrics. That's most of my bias too, Robert. But I guess I think it's quite clever. I mean, they do do a lot of pop songs, but his voice stops it from being a cheesy pop song because obviously his voice is the cure sound and he's blessed to have that unique voice. Oh, it's the cure. So he could sing, you know, a lullaby and it would instantly sound cool and alternative. You know how he sings? Yeah. I mean, he wouldn't be allowed to be doing cats on stage, even though he doesn't love cats. But yeah, his voice is perfect. He can do emotion. He can be happy. He can do it all. Yeah. He's got such a great sense of humor, too. I mean, yeah. And when I said, Fran, the video that went viral of him at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame with a very enthusiastic view, he was like, I think you're more excited than I am. He's like, we'll just get a couple of drinks in us. And he's like, God forbid. Right. I'm always interested because people say that The Cure are one of the most English sounding bands. So I'm always surprised why they do so well in America. Are you not put off by his gossip? He talks about football. He talks about, you know, they're not very Atlantic looking, are they, The Cure? No, I never really thought of them being very English for whatever reason. So like, I guess it never really crossed my mind until I went to England and I was on the tour and my tour guide, one of my friends for whatever reason, was wearing eyeliner. I don't know why, but I think he just did it to be funny or something. And our tour guide was like, hey, you look a lot like Robert Smith. And I was like, oh, yeah, Robert Smith. He's from England. Yeah, that's right. And like, I just I guess he's the reference. Right. So I guess it never like really crossed my mind until I heard him speaking in interviews. And that came out a little bit more. It's interesting that you say like, just like Kevin's overplayed. Like in the UK, it wasn't even the top 20 single. But when I spent time in America, it's really interesting to hear what they play compared to the UK. And in the UK, I've never heard Pitch to the View or Dusseldorf Heaven on the radio. And in America, I heard those songs constantly. Like, we get Boys Don't Cry, Close to You and Friday I'm in Love. And that's pretty much it, I think. I've definitely heard just like Kevin in Belgium. Definitely. And also I feel like in film soundtracks or something like that. I've heard it a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, Dusseldorf Heaven is one of those film soundtracks. But it's interesting when you look at the UK chart hits. Like, yeah, I thought Dusseldorf Heaven would be a top ten hit, but no. No, that's weird. I have notes on chart placements coming up in a bit. My next pick is very dark. The Hanging Garden off their darkest album, arguably Pornography. What I really like about this song is, well, I love the drums. It's got this tribal rhythmic driving force. I believe it's Lol Tolhurst, because it's a three-piece band at this point. But I also just love how Robert Smith, he's almost like torturously singing at you. His sound here is very pained. And if you look into the making of this album, it was not a happy process. Apparently, everyone was going through some tough shit. And Robert Smith was heavily drinking, doing drugs. In fact, he said at one point, they had cans of beer just stacked up in a corner, and it was creating this like tower of beer or something. And there was just like a lot of stuff going on that put him in a bad space. And so you can kind of hear it in songs like this. But this is another part of The Cure that I love, is this just tortured dark sound, which is perfect for curling up in a corner in the dark somewhere. But it's also great for a rainy day. I love listening to this whole album, really. Pornography, when it's a gloomy day out, it just really evokes this foreboding atmosphere. And especially now, San Francisco is always kind of cloudy and foggy. So listening to this album out here is always a good choice. But yeah, this is one of my favourite songs. They played it live. When I saw them, it sounded great. Yeah, I guess The Forest, this and Charlotte sometimes are the three most coffee songs I can think of for The Cure maybe. Lullaby as well. Yeah, I guess a bit more slick. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what? I can't stand Lullaby unless it's done live, because I hate whispering. Oh yeah, it's a good one. Unless they're a Geordie. A hushed Geordie whisper. But yeah, so anything's live is fine. But that sort of album version, I'm not a big fan of. Interesting. But yeah, this has got the Simon Gallop bass line. He's like the only concert member most of the time. I know he's come back and forth, but I think he's been in the band for the last 35 years now. Yeah, again, it's got the ambient sort of touch guitar. It's got that echoey Cure sound that spires your guitar. I guess it's a proto-Goth sound that we now think of when you think of The Cure. Although, as we said before, there's a lot more colours than this. And yeah, it's got that Joy Division and that sort of like guitar. It's got that guitar pedal sound that says Goth, which a lot of people use. I don't know what the effect's actually called, but OK, we're now in that sort of place. And we're going to mention this film later on, but James O'Barr, who wrote The Crow, he included the lyrical to this in The Crow, and that's why he asked The Cure if they could use this song in the film The Crow. But he said, no, I will make a better song, which was later. So Baz, what are your thoughts on this? Yeah, this is the Goth-y sound that I would expect. I would have expected this to be the first Cure song I ever heard. I was like, aha, yes, we've got it. I was surprised that the drums were so military-esque, as you say. And everyone, well, not everyone, I saw lots of things like, yeah, they're ripping off Sizzy and the Banshees. For me, it's more Adam and the Ants, just because that's the reference that I know better. But despite all of those names, also, I agree with you on Joy Division. The bass as well, for me, is also very Peter Hook again. I don't think it sounds derivative. I think it's a good mix of those influences. And yeah, this is actually, you mentioned it in the song before, Fran, but this is the song where I was like, God, he's got such a unique voice. It's so interesting because it could quite easily sound annoying because he is like pleading a lot, but it's just, I feel like, just on the right edge of like, you know, you're enthralled, you want to hear what this man has to say, but it's not too nasally, it's not too whiny. I enjoyed it, but I listened to it three times, and I didn't feel the need to go and listen to it again. I would say, like, maybe this is something that I would have to be in a mood to go and, like you suggested, Ryan, go off and discover the Pornography album, be like, be in a really shitty mood. It's actually pretty grey in Brussels here today, to be honest, maybe this is the day that I should go and curl up on the sofa after this record and just listen to this album. I guess it's a great post-Barbie album. Oh, yes. Yes, it is. Absolutely. But I will tell you this about the Barbie film. There are some indie rock references that you do not expect, and I will leave it at that. But yeah, I did say what they were on my Twitter, so don't look at that. But yeah, I mean, you mentioned, you know, Ryan, that you're in San Francisco and it's cloudy, but it does intrigue me, because I think the last episode that I guessed on your podcast, the Breaking Record Player podcast, I think you mentioned going to, like, a goth bar. And it does seem to me that in California, maybe San Francisco today specifically, there is this kind of goth scene, and there's definitely like a dark wave scene, right, which is not a million miles away from this with the coal caves and the Drag Majesties and stuff. So yeah, is there one? What's it like? Why do you think it's so burgeoning, despite the mostly sunny weather? Yeah, well, that's the thing. California isn't really always sunny. And especially up here in the north and in the bay, it's quite cold out here. I mean, for California standards, where I live, exactly, it never gets what rarely gets above 60 degrees. But yeah, there is a goth scene out here. And there's a goth club that is still open that I go to. I used to go to it a lot more, especially before COVID. But I've been going to it again, more and more. And yeah, like the Drag Majesties and groups like Christian Death and 45 Grave, they're all from LA. I think, because California is seen as this like sunny place that there's a lot of- California is very materialistic, and especially LA. And even up here in the bay with the tech boom, and you know, like Facebook and Apple and everything up here, there is a sense of- I think there's a little bit of a rebellion against a lot of this stuff. And I think goth does well out here because of that, because it's like there needs to be something to contrast that, like overly materialistic, capitalist and very, how would I describe it, kind of vain lifestyle. And I think the goth scene does a good job of kind of countering that and, you know, being the rival or the opposite of that, I should say. Oh, interesting. Well, yeah, you all need light and shade. But I guess, you know, the passion motor motor seems to be massive in LA and California. Yeah. And they're on the goth spectrum, I would say. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So what's your next pick? My next pick is not goth at all. It is The Walk. And so this is a pretty upbeat song off their album, Japanese Whispers. And I kind of picked this just to take a little bit of a break from the doom and gloom, but also to show the range. I really like this groove, the beat, it's a great dance song. And I've heard the song many times. I've heard most of these songs at the club that I go to every once in a while. But yeah, I think it's really cool to see when you go to a goth club. I mean, it's fun to just kind of people watch at these places because the dancing is really, really good. Like, I enjoy it. Yeah, exactly. Brand is doing a fantastic job of demonstrating what they actually do. But seeing all the different age groups dancing to songs like this is actually really, really kind of inspiring because you see old goths, you see young goths, you see a whole mixture of people who love the cure and songs like this, even though it's not really goths. I mean, they still dance to songs like this. So I think this is one of their bigger hits. I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure it's on a lot of their compilation records. Fran, correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, it was on the first compilation called Japanese Whisper. But yeah, I think this always makes the best songs in the UK, doesn't it? Yeah, it's definitely more accessible than the last song. Very 80s. It's a time capsule in a lot of ways. It's very much a product of the 80s, but it has this funky, groovier, new wavy sound than the other tracks on here. It's produced by Simon, I don't know how you say his name, I think it's Nai. And he's the guy who produced Japan Tin Drum, who we've previously spoken about, which could have linked to the Asian sounding elements. I'm not a big fan of that keyboard sound for the main riff. I think it just screams, we're in the 80s, a bit too much for me. I mean, we were. Oh, yeah, I know, 83. And I think this is just after Pornography and after Band of Crips, it's just Noel and Robert Left, which is why there's no live drums. It's more of a different sound than previous work. This was their first top 20 hit in the UK. Oh, wow. This is it, yeah. So I forgot to mention, God, I teased chart positions. So surprisingly, The Hanging Garden got to 34 in the UK, and this got to 12. But yeah, it doesn't surprise me, because as you say, Ryan, it's much more accessible. So this is a song that I knew, had not realised, I must have listened to this at like 80s nights, God knows what, but it's on the Greatest Hits album. And it's in between songs that I would normally listen to. So I'm just really surprised. I was prepared for it because I was listening to the previous song while making notes, you know, typing out everything out. And I went on to the Wikipedia page of the song and the categories were Euro Disco and Synth Pop. And I was like, what the fuck? So I absolutely love this. I don't think I've heard it in about, yeah, like, I haven't chosen to listen to it in about 20 years. I wouldn't have guessed it was The Cure. I would have guessed it was some kind of early Depeche Mode B-side or something like that. I really like the keyboard sound. And of course, the Japanese sound obviously reminds me of Japan and Big in Japan by Alphaville. I think when I remember my parents just saying that Japan was just really fashionable in the 80s, like it was fashionable in every sense, not just music. And that's why it's so mentioned. But I was also very curious to see that on Spotify, Mark Saunders is featured. So it's like The Cure, Mark Saunders. And I think he also co-produced this. And he's the guy who produced Dancing in the Street and Buffalo Stamps by Neneh Cherry. So he's got a solid background for that, man. Yeah, absolutely love this. Save this immediately to listen to again. Awesome. So what's your next choice, Ryan, your fourth pick? My fourth pick is another pretty big song by them, Pictures of You. This was the song that really captivated me the most when I first heard Disintegration. And that was the first album I ever listened to was Disintegration. This is, I think this is one of those cliche breakup songs, but it's also a romantic song. So it can go both ways. But I just I think it's beautiful. I think that it has this also nostalgic quality to it, can conjure up memories. I find this one of the songs where I, it's really easy to kind of get daydreamy about with a song like this, kind of perfect for reminiscing. I also love the backstory to this. And Robert Smith is known for kind of confusing the press on purpose. He likes to play games by saying that this song is about this and then like, a week later say, well, it's actually this, you know, he's kind of famous for doing that, which I really appreciate to get a kick out of it. But I think one story he said was that it was based on, and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, maybe, but a real life event where his house burned down and the only things remaining were pictures of his wife-to-be, something like that, which I found very interesting. That's what I read as well. There's also a version that he says that he read an essay by Myra Pollio called The Heart Power of Ritual Photographs, and he then destroyed all his pictures and home videos and then regretted it. So there you go. He's got two different versions already. And as people pointed out, Myra Pollio is an anagram of Mary Poole, his wife's maiden name. So this is why the shit-talking just keeps going. It's really funny. I love this song. It's definitely one of my favourites. What do you guys think? So yeah, this was a song that I discovered when I bought The Best Of in probably about 1996, and I had never heard it before in my entire life, and it's gorgeous. Sometimes I complain that bands need to edit back, but I could listen to this for an hour. And I think they headlined Glastonbury in 1990, and they've got a 10-minute version of that where they have even more melodic guitars that keep coming, keep interweaving. It's a beautiful piece of music. It's cinematic. I love to watch the synths I come across. And yeah, I love the word play. Yeah, I can listen to this for days, and I find it fascinating how this is meant to be played in the UK. It's really, really strange. Maybe because I think it might have been the third single from the album, so maybe by then people had it on the album already. It could be one of those sort of things. I think, like, Lullaby and Love Song came out before. Is there a radio edit as well? Because it is half a minute. I can listen. Yeah, yeah, and the video is beautiful with them dancing in the snow, I think a tempo video. So yeah, I mean, I would be devastated if I saw The Cure and they didn't play this at some point. Yeah, I'm going to counteract all of my studies. So I was convinced that this song was on The Greatest Hits, and I didn't like it. It wasn't on The Greatest Hits, but I have in any case. But this song, to me, when it started, I was like, this could be a New Order song. So I'm like, who's ripping off who? Who's copying who? Because it's all the same period. I would be inclined to think, date-wise, maybe it is a little bit more The Cure, because I was thinking, when was Blue Monday in relation to The Walk? And it was six months before. So I'm like, yes, when New Order or The Cure make this kind of sound, I am not a fan, maybe because, as Fran said, it's the melodic guitars. I think you've got the dirge there, which I normally like, but there's too much melody and I just prefer the dirge. I can absolutely agree, like the washing over of the synths is nice, but it just doesn't grab me in the same way, exactly. And I don't really know why, because when The Cure or New Order make a similar sound, but it's a little bit more, I don't know, angsty, grungy, I prefer it. But yeah, this is, yeah, it's a bit too romantic for my cold stone heart, I think. But the next, I don't think you can accuse the next song of being like that. So what's your final pick from The Cure? Oh, my final pick is, and Fran mentioned The Crow earlier, this is from The Crow soundtrack, it is Burn. And I chose this one last because I think it closes out the playlist well, especially with this fade out at the end. But it's also just one of my favourite songs. And I also heard them play it live. And when they played it live, I was just like, yes. Like, I was just so excited to hear it, because I know that they didn't always play it. It was a while before they started playing it again. But I love The Crow movie. And I love this song. So it's a perfect point in the movie, too. It's when Brandon Lee becomes the crow when he's actually putting the outfit on and the makeup on. It's just a perfect song for that scene. And as Fran mentioned earlier, the director asked Robert Smith if he could use The Hanging Garden and Smith said, No, I'll just write a whole new song. Well, thank God that he said that because we got this. I just it's just an epic song. It's got this large, kind of, I would say it's out of all these songs I've listed, it might be the most well produced. It's just it has this big sound in it. It's kind of like perfect for a movie about a dark vigilante who's getting justice, you know, like it just it's, it's a really good song for that. It's kind of got a montage quality to it in the middle. I put this on if I'm kind of getting psyched up for something, you know, it's got a good kind of pump up quality to it while being incredibly dark and sort of melancholic to a degree as well. It's kind of got a lot of different things going for it. But yeah, every time I hear the song, I just see the scene from the film. And it's just a great scene. Where did this place in the charts this song? I would have been like, like 13, 14. And I have no recollection of this ever being like, played in MTV. We mentioned, we did a YouTube one recently, and we mentioned Batman Forever with U2 being caught on MTV. And The Crow was obviously everywhere because of, you know, what happened to Brandon and, but I have no recollection of this ever being played. And I yeah, I only discovered it when I bought like that compilation and thought, where did this come from? It's just an amazing song. Because I probably haven't seen the chorus since like 1994. And like, I'm always a bit scared that it might be, it may not, it may not have dated well. But I've never, I've never watched it or any of the sequels say, yeah, I do like this. And it feels like an updated version of pornography, but with better production. And what I think it was, again, I think the band had just kind of like, for the cure to keep breaking up constantly. Well, other members, it's always what's missed, but other members come and go. And I think it happened again, leaving him with just Boris the drummer. And that was it. And then he went into studio and then created this like cracking track. It's seductive. It's like a black, sexy, dream quality of a cracking chorus, like, every night I burn. It feels like, you know, he means every single word. And yeah, and yeah, I think they started to play it live in 2016 because a lot of people were complaining constantly and he finally gave in. And so, yes, I was so happy when he played it in 2018. And this is just again, I'm thinking, it sounds a lot like the Smashing Pumpkins as well. I wonder if Smashing Pumpkins had taken some of this for their second half of the 90s sound of that sort of guitar sound. But yeah, Babs, have you heard it before? I haven't. And I actually haven't seen The Cry before, even though I'd heard of it. I'm guessing you've seen it, Fran. Yeah, but like I said, I saw it like once in about 1995. I can't comment on that, unfortunately. So, yeah, I was wondering, Ryan, kind of what made you pick a song from a soundtrack as opposed to, you know, one of the many albums. And I did see that The Cry was called the first gothic superhero film. And I was like, aha, okay, now I get it. And yeah, I knew other songs from this album. So I'd saved After the Flesh from my life with a thrill, Kill Cops, who I love. I absolutely love A Day to Change the Satan. That's a song that I get very obsessed with. After the Flesh is a bit heavier. Oh, yeah, I absolutely love this. I really enjoyed the kind of frenetic beginning, you can't tell where it's going. I like that there's long instrumental stretches, the driving drums, once again, kind of guiding the whole thing. And yeah, I do love it when you listen to a song and you can see the visuals. And I'm really curious to, but it is definitely a film I want to watch. I just haven't gotten around to it. But in our Psychedelic Fires episode, Richard Butler, he was in a band called Last Bit Love. And he did, he covered How Soon Is Now for The Croft, which is also a cult 90s film that I've only seen now. And I was thinking, like, if I, are these like the two most kind of alternative soundtrack films with an influence? Because on the soundtrack, there's also Pantera, Rage Against the Machine, Nine Inch Nails, Why Not Fans? Yeah, I heard about the soundtrack way before I heard about the film and stuff like that. So yeah, I am now very curious to go and watch it. And I would recommend The Croft as well, if you haven't seen it. So Fran, either or underrated The Cure? Well, I have tried to listen to every single The Cure album in the past. And as I said before, I've not come away wanting to own any The Cure album. So therefore, I think that they are a band who have 20 brilliant songs. So I was lucky in Hyde Park that they played all of them. So that, but as a whole canon of work, I would say maybe slightly overrated, because I don't think that they are consistent. I think that when they're great, they're great, but there's a lot of filler, unfortunately. And so for that reason, and also, he's done very little in the past 30 years. That's true. That is very, very true. I mean, he does a lot of great collaborations like with churches, and Mr. Castle, and so forth. But yeah, come on. The last 30 years, what have we been up to? So yeah, so that was, I would say, middle, middle in between both. To be honest, I feel very similarly, because yeah, this playlist for me kind of did represent myself about The Cure. There were three songs that I loved. I loved Open, I loved The Walk, I loved Burn. And then there was one that I was like, oh, Hanging Gardens was good. And then, but Pictures of You, I was like, ah, it just is the sound that I'm not so keen on. And when I went to look at the Spotify numbers, they have over 17 million monthly listeners. That's 384 in the world. I was not expecting them to be that high. I would have maybe said top 1000, maybe, but top 500, top 400. But I do find it difficult to dismiss outright overrated, firstly, because I think you've done a good job, Ryan, of kind of showing the different sides of The Cure. And it's just like, we're just inching the door in a little bit to hear them. So I would maybe say overrated, but I would rather stay in the middle, because I do think that they have a very original sound in parts, and when I really like their songs, I really like their songs. But yeah, it's interesting to see that, yeah, Fran, you also think it's an album problem rather than a sound. We just need to get into a gloomier mindset or a new wavier mindset and listen to them at the right time. Maybe that's what's missing. Yeah, I think, yeah, I guess, Head On The Door and Wish Will Probably Be The Albums I would go with. But yeah, I don't know what it is. But, you know, it's hard to say about the overrated, really, because, you know, they created their own kind of genre, really. So many bands have, like, borrowed from The Cure. So, you know, they're so important, and they've got so many fantastic songs, I can never say they're overrated. I just think that they're a band that you very rarely meet and you hate, which I find quite interesting. True, actually. Yeah, people love them or don't know them or are indifferent to them. Yeah, that's a good point. I've never heard anyone say I can't stand The Cure. I've heard people say I can't stand The Smiths or, you know, groups like that. I think that may be more because of moralcy than anything. But yeah, I've never heard anyone say I don't, I hate The Cure. Also, I agree, Fran, they haven't done anything in the last 30 years, really. So that's problematic. But I would say everything from 1980 to 1992 is pretty solid. Maybe one, like a couple albums that I'm kind of lukewarm about, like The Top and whatever. But I listen to everything from 17 Seconds to Wish pretty much consistently. Although Kiss Me, the Kiss Me album is a little long. I do like the Kiss from the Kiss Me album. I think that's really good. I have that saved. And it's wild to me that Y.C.I.B. is also on that album, because I knew that from The Greatest Hits. I'm like, that sounds like two completely different sounds. But yeah, but maybe that's why. I should have included this on the list, the playlist, but you should listen to the song Torture from Kiss Me, Kiss Me. It's not one of their big hits, but it's sounds like he's being tortured a little bit. Darker, darker. Good. I do like Men's Sufferings, but I will finish by going to... I have just watched the Bobby film. I will go and listen to that afterwards. Thank you, Rose. You like music? And do you like podcasts? Chances are, you like music podcasts. Take this one, for example, Pick A Disc. I'm Matt Latham, and every fortnight, a guest comes on to Pick A Disc to talk about an album for any reason that they wanted. They'll talk about the album as a whole, they'll talk about songs, talk about any personal stories about the album, if they've ever seen the band live, and all sorts of other crazy tangents. And if at any point, any of that made you want to listen to Pick A Disc, then you can find us on your podcast, Afterchoice, or on the Facebooks and Twitters and Instagrams under Pick A Disc. We're also on the We Made Disc Podcast Network, on wemadediscnetwork.com, and on Twitter, at We Underscore Made Disc. Goodbye. Underrated Welcome back to part two. We have just discussed The Cure, and we're now going to be discussing a band that I had never heard of. I'm not sure if Banders knew them, but Ryan, can you introduce your underrated pick? Yeah, so my underrated pick is a band who, for the longest time, I didn't know how to say their name. But it's really simple. It's XMAL Deutschland. It is how it looks. Yeah, they were a gothic, dark wave group from Hamburg, only around for about 10 years, and released four albums. And, you know, I was in Hamburg a couple months ago, couldn't find their stuff. Went to a couple record stores. Wow, really? Yeah, they didn't have anything by them. I can't find their stuff here very easily in the United States. I know they're compared a lot to Suzie and the Banshees. But I think that's a little unfair. I mean, yes, there's similarities. But, you know, I think being from Germany, and singing in German, and also having, I would say, even a more ethereal sound to them, I think they can separate themselves a little bit from the Banshees. But yeah, they were part of that early German post punk scene. And there are other groups that they were associated with. Maybe you guys can say this name correctly. Einstürzende Neubauten. Yes, there we go. Who are pretty well known for being in that scene as well. The industrial scene more, more likened to that scene. But I just never felt that this band got the credit they deserve. They did make it on some like UK indie charts, I believe, but nothing much more than that. And to this day, unless you're really, really into this genre, they go pretty much unnoticed. So I think that, honestly, they didn't do a whole lot with their genre. I mean, they just played it really well. But I think that they don't get recognition, even amongst some people who are into goth music. You have to, I think, really be into it to really give them the credit they deserve. So I would just say that the lead singer, I believe her name is Anya. She had a really kind of rich, croony vocal sound that I thought was really cool, really, really atmospheric. And she's, to me, one of the more standout vocalists of the gothic genre. So I think that's one of the reasons this band stands out for me. So, yeah, like I said, I had never heard this band in my life. I was surprised that they had supported some big bands in the UK, like The Stranglers, and I think they had maybe a top 40 single. I knew that in Germany, this goth is kind of bigger in Germany than in Europe. It might be a cliche, but we all think that, you know, you go to a bird and sex club and they're playing goth music. Is it true? I've not been. You guys have been to Hamburg, so you know. Yeah, I went to a conference in Hamburg, although I did go to the Hyperbahn. So, yeah, I had no X-Mail Deutschland when I was there. Yeah, it's hard to not mention them. But yeah, there's more to them I will discuss when we go through the playlist. But yeah, it's interesting to discover goth bands. And also when I first started it, was it three ladies and one guy initially? Yeah, I think it might have even been four ladies. And then one of the ladies got substituted by a guy and then... So, you know, even rarer, even rarer. And I've been watching some videos, it's not a lot on the internet, but I keep thinking that it's like an alternative version of Kim Wilde. Yeah. But yeah, so she's having a great look. But obviously, in the UK, I think, you know, when you're singing in a different language, it hurts a little bit, which is by album three, I noticed that they are singing in English on songs. But maybe it was too late. Maybe, I don't know. So, Babs, what are your thoughts? I had heard of them. I did know their biggest song Incubus that you didn't put on, Ryan. I was glad for that, actually, because I'm like, it's an opportunity for me to discover more of their songs. But literally, yeah, all I knew was like, they were German, and they had at least one woman in it. And I think I probably discovered them from going down one of the many, many kind of female goth punk bands, you know, female fronted that I often do to find out like new acts for me that have women in them. And yeah, it was really interesting to read about their life. I had no idea about that. She shared a flat with People's Mindstuds in Neubauten and someone called Christiane F. Had you heard of Christiane F? Either of you? I think it sounds very familiar. Well, so basically, she was this kid who aged 14 was a heroin addict and became a sex worker. And there was a film in it where David Bowie features quite prominently, because... Zoo Station. Zoo Station. Okay, okay. Yeah. And yeah, I was like, okay, because I read this interview with like the notorious Christiane F and I'm like, not notorious enough to me. So it's interesting to go down that kind of David Bowie balloon, 1980s rabbit hole. And yeah, I read that they, yeah, I read about the 4AD Connection. I read that they opened for the Copso twins. And actually it was Ivo, what's Russell, who also produced Gardens by Copso Twins produced, co-produced their first album, but they had quite a lot of clashes with him because she said that like, oh, he kept making us want, he kept making us want to sound arty. We didn't want to sound arty, which is quite funny. So yeah, by the second record, it was someone, it was someone else. But yeah, I think maybe one of the reasons why they weren't as big was, yeah, as France said, the singing in German. But also, I think there was some record label clashes. I think there seemed to be some kind of personal clashes as well, because I read this whole interview with Anya, where she was saying how at one point, the people who managed Susie and the Banshees wanted to manage them, but Susie and the Banshees were like, no, you can't. It's like, okay, I think, yeah, right. You'd initially said, because we talked about doing a goth episode, doing The Cure, I think you'd put someone else forward. But when you said Axl and Ardoit and I was like, no, this is, this is a perfect opportunity for me to find out more and France too, it seems. So yeah. So what's your first pick? So my first pick is the song Orient, and it is off their first album, Fetish. And this is something that I think I wanted to also mention about why they're a little bit underrated. And I think this song, the song shows it with this blending that they were able to do of like an East, Eastern sound that they did really well. They incorporated this kind of like, Arabic sort of sound to their music. And, and with Anya's vocals that had this like, really, just kind of dark, mysterious vibe to it that, you know, Orient being like something that was mysterious at the time, you know, the whole, the Western view of the Orient being this place of mystery and intrigue, I think this really captures that sound really well. Pretty consistent throughout the whole track. It's not really changing much as it goes along, but it's very danceable, which all their songs really are. And that's one of the things I love about goth bands is like, they can be very dark, very moody, but also you want to kind of get up and move to them, which is just strange, but compelling at the same time. And this is a good blending of all of that. I wonder if in Germany, they weren't ready to know how to dance to goth music, because there's a live version of these in Germany. And your audience are like mannequins. And everyone's commenting saying, are they going to actually move? And then in the middle, it's one guy up and down. This is exactly what I expected to sound like. And I was like, is that good or bad? In my head, I was like, okay, this fits what I thought. It's got a joyous and bass sound. It's got the goth rock sensibilities. It's got that Middle Eastern synth sound, which you mentioned that seemed to be quite popular. And Blumons have a similar keyboard sound at one point in their live. I like that giddy up percussion, like it's the horse going along, which again, I think is a bit like Budgie in Seas of the Banshees. I wonder if the vocals do split the audience. I guess at some points, it's almost a yodel. I don't know if that will put off some of the more popular music fans. But yeah, this is a great start. But there's better tracks on the playlist for me. Yeah, I think I agree with you. Her voice is quite harsh. Although I really do like the harmonies in the middle. I thought she was saying Oreo rather than Orient. And I was like, oh, okay, it's not like a football chant in the middle of it. No, she's saying about Oreos. Yeah, of course, because they were basses back in Hamburg in the 80s, I'm sure. But yeah, no, I thought it was simple and nice. I like the spooky synth line that prevails throughout all of their songs. Although there's different levels of spookiness, for sure. This is this is mid-tier spooky, I would say. Really like the scuttle guitars. And yeah, I wrote the same as you found, like similar to those military drums. And yeah, I obviously went to Google Translate the lyrics. Very, very cheerful stuff. When they hang you, the sun is high. Your body is cold. The sun is hot. Caravan takes your body. Your skin is light. Your father doesn't hear your screams. Your mother doesn't see your eyes. Okay, ladies, let's go see Barbie. Come on, Anya, let's go. But yeah, I think maybe all three of us would agree on like, listening to gloomy music to make you feel better is one of the great choices in this world. I do really like a depressing lyric. I'm sad that it'd be just a little bit too old for emo when it was big, because I would have been all over that shit. But yeah, you can barely understand, even if you speak German, I think you can barely understand what she's saying. And yeah, I really enjoyed Google Translating all the lyrics and seeing what they were about. What was your second pick, Ryan? So the second pick is probably my favorite song. It is Island and love the atmosphere here. Anya's vocals on this one are some of my favorites of hers, the wailing. She's got this rich sound, especially on this track, this deep, dark sound that she's got. And I love the I don't think it's a bass. I think it's like they're doing something on the keyboards where it's like, boom, boom, you know, it's got this like foreboding sort of sound to it that you're like, okay, this is going somewhere darker. And then it kind of kicks into this, like, really, I can just see people dancing. Yeah, it's got this like goth groove to it, which is really catchy. And I find it every time I hear it. I'm like, yeah, this is my favorite. This is probably my favorite of theirs. And it's on their second album, Toxin, which is, I think they're best known, probably their most famous album that they ever produced. Have you discovered all four albums, Ryan? Or have you ever heard of them on Spotify? No, I've listened to the last two, although I don't really go back to those ones because they they're harder to get a hold of. And also the last album they did was they were trying to almost go in like a much more new wavy sound like they were kind of, I don't want to, I'm not going to say selling out, but they were kind of trying to make their sound a little more acceptable for people. And so it doesn't really do it for me because I like the first couple albums more than than those last few. The third one was good. But it still kept some of that dark vibe to it. But you said earlier, they were kind of trying to go in a more English route with the language. And I just find that Toxin especially is just the one I usually go back to. Yeah, I enjoyed the Bow Wow sounds. Who knows how to make it? There's actually a John Peel live session on YouTube I was listening to, it was quite interesting. They did four, I saw, with him, but he really liked them, he really championed them. Yeah, this is, I guess, more industrial. I guess this would be played in the dead disco or I don't know whatever you're going to name your goth disco. I like how the spiked guitar lies in the chorus. It's got that hypnotic feel. I feel like I was drifting into all of the revolving rhythms. It's got maybe like a Sisters of Mercy vibe more than The Cure. And yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed this. I'm surprised. I'm surprised it wasn't too dirge, too furious for you. Yeah, I much enjoyed the fact that it was dirger and gloomier and the production sounded much slicker. I really like the organ on here. Like I said, this is we're on a higher tier of spookiness here, that's for sure. And I really like the section where all of that spookiness just leaves and it's just the drum and then the bass. Like everything's taken away before it comes back. So yeah, I thought this was great. I also, it made me think of, I haven't seen the Netflix show Wednesday, right? You know, speaking of famous goths. And I know that the cramp song, Goo Goo Muck, that went viral because there was this song where she was dancing to it. And then I went to look at the soundtrack, there were very, very few goth related things. It seemed to be like classical music versions of like, I don't know, like Elton John and another, no, maybe not Elton John, but random Dua Lipa definitely was in there. I'm like, I did not expect Dua Lipa in a frippin, but what I was thinking of like, yeah, have you seen it, Ryan? The Netflix? Is it good? Because I can't figure out whether it's kind of, is it for children? Is it worth it? Is it gothy enough? Would this fit into it? Because I'm like, this feels like a song that would fit right in that kind of TV show. No, so I liked Wednesday and I'm a sucker for the Addams family. I love the Addams family, especially the 90s movie, the two 90s movies, love them. But this was kind of like, to me, Wednesday was more like hot topic goth, where it was like, not really goth. It was kind of like, you know, if My Chemical Romance is goth, then this is goth. But I don't see Exmole Deutschland fitting into the soundtrack. Because it's like Wednesday, while it's not necessarily for children, it's still a little bit too Hollywoodized, a little bit too Disney-ish maybe for Exmole Deutschland. I think the cramps fit well with that scene, especially. Unfortunately, though, a lot of TikTokers took that song and they replaced it with a Lady Gaga song. And so people thought that Lady Gaga, yeah, like people were doing the, they took the scene in the show, and they put Lady Gaga over the dance scene. And so a lot of people thought Lady Gaga was actually doing it. And so I think she got more attention than the cramps actually did. Unfortunately, I was hoping for like a, you remember when Kate Bush blew up because of Stranger Things, I was kind of hoping the cramps would blow up because of Wednesday, but unfortunately, Lady Gaga kind of hijacked that. That's interesting. But I think that happens, right? Doesn't it more and more these days, where like people will, will pick like a meme video and then just put different songs over it. But I actually, I've seen the cramps version go very viral. I hadn't seen the Lady Gaga one. So yeah, maybe it depends on the audience. I think that there is a little bit of a goth. There's a lot of goth appreciation out here in the States. But I think it's, I don't want to be like, I'm not going to do the gatekeeping stuff, right? Like, but I do think there's a little bit of just cluelessness about what it is. And I think that there are people who, who think that, like Wednesday is super goth, and that Stranger Things is goth, and that Marilyn Manson is goth, you know, I think there's like this sort of misunderstanding that actually kind of has always been around with the goth movement. And goths have always been the first people to tell you how much it pisses them off that people just don't understand their scene. But it kind of continues. I think there's a lot of people now who I've seen these shirts that say OG goth on it. And I'm just like, interesting, really, like, you have to wear that shirt, like to, to say, Oh, I was one of the originals. And, and I think that people who wear those shirts probably weren't one of the originals. But yeah, there's this weird sort of, like, romanticization of the gothic movement. And it's done by people who probably just don't have the first clue about what it is. But I think Wednesday, as much as I did enjoy it, I think it's kind of tapped into that a little bit. So yeah, I mean, like, goth is also gothic novels from the 19th century or 18th. Yeah, 19th century. Like, it's that's what it's inspired by. So that's why it is this weird, like, yes, it is people wearing black clothes and black makeup, but actually, they might have it as a fashion and not really be into any of the music. It's an interesting one. But yes, let's head towards the moonlight with your with your next pick, Ryan. Yes, my third pick is, my German is rusty, but I believe it's pronounced Mon, Yep, this is one of their bigger hits, for sure. And if they had any hits, really. But this one, I would say is much more of a, like a dark wave sound. And, again, great crooning from Anya. Awesome intro. They have a lot of great intros kind of similar to the cure that sets the mood. And I've heard this one quite a bit at the goth clubs. And it's it gets people to really sway and move. And it gets people to sway, sway, sway, like if anyone has seen South Park and knows the goths in South Park, that's pretty much what they're doing. They're just kind of dancing a little bit like not really moving. But again, brings a little bit of that eastern flair in here. And yeah, this, this is toxins just full from start to finish with these kinds of songs, like the one before and this one as well. Yeah, I noticed when I heard this, I thought, OK, I'm starting to understand their sound. And the next track also sounds in the same sort of vein. But yeah, I guess it's got noticeable more keys and more of an aggressive guitars to it. I especially like, I think it's like three minutes 40. The guitars and keyboards sort of changing a lot into a impressive middle section that is too short. I wanted it to go a lot longer. I really enjoyed that section the most. So it's a great sound. I did love it. I think I preferred the items more than this for me. Abs? Yeah, I don't really have more, much more to add apart from more organ, more happy is what I wrote. There also seem to be some strings in there, which is nice. But yeah, I think the thing I love the most is, yeah, this is again, we're at higher tier spooky. But then, yeah, it goes into that section unexpressedly where the organ is not there and it's more new wavy, I would say. And I was like, oh, I was enjoying that. But I also don't mind a bit of this either. So, yeah, I think, you know, maybe a criticism about this band, like the songs do sound very similar. But I mean, these are two albums two years apart. But I don't I don't mind too much. But I do think you have to be in the mood to listen to this for sure. Like this isn't yeah, this isn't something you could just put on the on the radio. And yeah, well, it depends on the radio station, but not a non-commercial radio anyway. Definitely not. I would put it on my radio station, but I would not be making much money probably with it. Unless you found those famous goths with money. My fourth pick is Qual. Probably the most well, the intro, at least, is quite new. Well, not new wavy. I don't know. Would you would you say it's new wavy that beginning part? It's got it's got more of a upbeat sound than the previous two for sure. It's kind of I don't know how to really describe it, but I really love this the backbeat of the song more. I think it's more punk inspired. And I think Fetish was a lot more because of their debut. It's going to be a little bit less refined. Usually that's the case for a lot of these bands is their debuts tend to be the most raw and the most, I guess, stripped down. And I think that this song is a little less involved than Mon Licht or Island. But I really think it's another just again, I'm going to repeat myself over and over again, but you can dance to this one, too. You can dance to all these songs. And that's the one thing about XMAL Deutschland. I think more so than the Cure, because the Cure are like some of their songs are very dancey, but XMAL Deutschland was just kind of like tailor made for goth clubs. Like this kind of music is just perfect for the environment. I've not bought this yet, but I feel like the debut is where the Susan Banshee's comparison happens a lot more than the other albums with the drums and the vocal style. But I do love the scratchy laser gun intro. I wouldn't know what genre you'd call it. And in the middle, it's going to do some sort of laser gunfight and the sound of thunder sort of like all happens at the same time. Again, it's a little bit obvious to me. It's kind of like goth I've heard before. We kind of mentioned the lyrics. Happy go lucky. You know, it's always nice. I'll translate them for you in a second. Yeah, don't worry. No worries. Something for the pop and the Valentine's Day card. Yeah, let me know the lyrics. Your torment is my lust. My love is your death. At night when you sleep, I'm alive. My day is your dawn. My love is your death. I'll murder you, which they say in English, which is quite interesting. Yeah, I thought like, oh, this is a very new sound. And I do agree. It's bouncing. You've got that bass sound. Really, really good until the vocals come in. And then it's like, oh, OK, this is that classic XMAL Deutschland sound. I really liked the screams and the effects. I like the instrumental bit in the middle. Yeah, like again, because the songs will have a similar sound. I did kind of like all the songs. I think it'd be a bit difficult for me to pick my favorite one, actually, because while I didn't enjoy the Dirge in Glimmer of Ireland, for example, Mondlicht, I thought was really special, too. So, yeah. Yeah. And we've got we've got one more to go to see how he feels. So what's your final pick, Ryan? So I believe it's called Regen. I would say Hagen, because Hagen. Regen without the I is rain, but Hagen means to dance. So I think there's a bit of a pun going on. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Again, on Toxin. And I think this one, all the all the songs, I mean, on Toxin are very much in the same vein, like this very sort of moody, atmospheric, gloomy sound, but with much more production than than Fetish had. And this is no this is no different. I think that with this ominous build at the beginning, it gets into this really catchy groove sound, the goth groove, as we're calling it now. That's what we're calling it, the goth groove. There is such a thing. That's what we call it in the club. That's what we call it in the club, guys. And the funny thing about the goth groove is you just know it when you hear it. Like you just you're like, oh, that's it. That's the goth groove. And this this one has a really, really memorable one. But I think for me, this is the perfect example of X-Malt Deutschland gothic music and what it does, its ability to, as I've said before, blend darkness with a hook that is just undeniably catchy. And, you know, when people ask me, well, why do you like goth music? It's like, well, because of this. I mean, this just I don't know. There's some like I know there's dancey music out there, there's catchy music out there, but it doesn't have the doom and gloom aspect that goes with it. And being a person who likes dark humor, who's very sarcastic, who's quite cynical at times and who just loves darker things in life, enjoys them, enjoys learning about them. I need something that is catchy, but still has that element to it. And I think a song like this is a perfect example of that. Yeah, I agree. I think this is my favorite song on the playlist. I've just had a check, and unfortunately, there's a lot of playlists called goth groove. Oh, damn it. Yeah, we haven't invented a new one. There's even one called coffee goth groove. Ryan is drinking coffee, right? Like he's the only one. But yeah, I put down, and I think that will go further into this, this has a Stranglers influence with the keyboard sound. I put half Stranglers, half Kraftwerk. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the sudden stop-start breaks it has, the yodeling vocal, like the hushed middle bass section. I said it could be shorter. I think it goes on a bit too long. It could make up back a little bit. On the live John Poole version, the guitar has even weirder sound effects, which is interesting to hear. And yeah, the whole thing's ultraworldly. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I played this maybe like six times so far. It's good going, I think, for me. So yeah, definitely. And I would probably dance with my partner in the rain, as I believe is what the lyrics are about. Yeah. Yep, they're drinking the drops straight from heaven. Drink the drops from heaven, guys. Yeah, let's all do it, whether it's raining or not. Yeah, I think here, like, it does go into the goth groups. But I think, as you said, the beginning really sets the tone, because you have that bass, which seems more prominent, because I feel like the guitars do come in more quickly on other songs. And I really like, I've called it the urgent alarm synth at the beginning, as well. And yeah, I really liked how often it feels like the song is going to lose control, but then it rains it back in, because it goes... And you think, oh, okay, no, we're going, oh, no, we're going back in. Oh, she's doing it again. I really liked how it wrong-footed me. And once, I think, as with anything kind of remotely gothy and spooky, I always think of one of my favorite bands that we've discussed, the 80s Matchbox Beeline Disaster, which Ryan, I think, if you haven't heard of them, I would really recommend, because they're somewhere in between, like, I don't know, goths, Psychobilly and Garage Rock. So... What was the name of the band? They're called the 80s Matchbox Beeline Disaster. Wow, okay. Yeah, I'm writing that down. Yeah, I will also add, because I forgot to mention it. So I really like, Ryan, that you mentioned the fact that with a goth club, what's great is the fact that it's kind of all ages. So I have been, I think I mentioned this before, there's an organization called Club New Wave here in Belgium, and they have these kind of dark wave evenings. And I've been to them, and it's exactly the same thing. It's so cool, because you have, like, very old goths, normally, like, young LGBT plus people. When I went, there was a guy dressed as Marie Antoinette. Why not? Like, I think it was, like, I think it was, like, around Halloween. So some people were dressed up, but it was just really impressive to see a guy in the whole, like, with a dress, and a wig, and the little kisses drawn on his cheek. With cake? Was he eating cake as well? He wasn't eating cake. He was just, I mean, he maybe had a fan as well, with him, while they played, like, you know, early Simple Minds, and all this kind of stuff. I feel like that maybe would be the only place, at least in Brussels, that I would hear. I have probably heard some of this music there, because they also have a kind of a mainstream room. That's it, where it's like, oh, this is Simple Minds. This is early Human League. And then you have the room where they go into, and you're like, I have absolutely zero clue what this is. But yeah, I think it's so nice to have a space that's so welcoming for so many different groups of people. And I think it's always nice to go out and see all ages, to be honest. I think it's, I think it's more fun. Yeah, I'd love to be able to go to anywhere in the UK to dance Simple Minds. But it's not going to happen for me, unless I'm going back to 1982. You've got yourself a come over for a club new wave. But Babs, I thought you might mention that Hugh Cornwell. Yes, of course. Thank you. Yes, thank you very much, Fran. So yeah, obviously, as we mentioned, you know, you only pick songs from these two albums because they're the ones that were on Spotify. But when I was reading the interview with Anya, and I think postpunk.com online, or something like that, I saw that Hugh Cornwell from The Stranglers, who are one of my favourite bands, they're definitely goth, they're goth adjacent. Hugh Cornwell produced their song Matador. Oh, yeah. And I went to listen to it. And I was like, wow, this is such a different time. I feel like this is somewhere in between Exile Deutschland and The Stranglers. And I yeah, I absolutely loved it. But yeah, I think I hadn't quite seen that yet, Fran, in this song. Like, I just, I don't think I was making this, I was so like in the goth, pure goth, I didn't realise it. And then yeah, when I heard that, I was like, oh, wow, they could definitely use some of that. I didn't realise that they'd supported them as well. That would have been, what a gig to have seen. Yeah, on YouTube, there's a lot of people commenting, that's how they discovered him, was like, supporting The Stranglers in London, like in 1984, I think, so. Oh, imagine. So yeah, Fran, over or underrated Exile Deutschland? I would say underrated, because I've never fucking heard of him until this week. And I like all the songs really, there's not a bad song on that compilation. And I even checked out some others. Yeah, Incubus, is it Incubus something 2? Incubus, Incubus 2. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Enjoyed that. So yeah, definitely. I mean, they've got, what, 70,000? Is that, what's the rundown for countries, that? So we have number one, Sao Paulo, okay, Brazil's into the goth. Number two, LA. Number three, Mexico City. Number four, Berlin. Number five, Santiago. So once again, it is very often the rockier, the rockier the act, the more South American the country. Yeah, no, there really is. I mean, Jenna Ortega, who played Wednesday is of Latino origin, right. And I've read a lot of stuff about how there's this, there was a TV show called Los Espookys, right, which I think has very cult fame in the US, which was kind of like, if I understand it, kind of goth Latinos. And I've read all these things about how there is that element to a lot of South American culture as well. And that's it, like, we might associate it with, like, Dia de los Muertos and, like, mariachi music and stuff like that. But actually, yeah, rock is also big there, too. Yes, it is. Yeah. But yeah, of course, underrated from me as well. I only knew one song by them. I hadn't, I don't know why I hadn't really gone to explore further. I think because I enjoyed Incubus, Occubus, but I'm very glad I did. And yeah, I'm really curious now to go to see what that matador sound is like. Is that from Fever, Ryan, from their third album? Yeah. I believe it is. Yeah. Yeah. Because it was different, but I enjoyed that, too. And yeah, it's just such a shame that it really does seem to have been like, oh, you sing in German, you're not going to make it. And it's like, well, I think 70,000 monthly listeners for a band that really, yeah, are singing in German. As you said, Ryan, like even within the goth community, they're not so well known. That is decent. And imagine with just, you know, a bit of faith and a bit of better marketing, they would have got bigger. I mean, they had four sessions of John Peel. That's quite a bit. And, you know, to my mind, didn't speak German, and that didn't really seem to matter. And I I do wonder if, you know, in the world of today, where, like, people are just so much more willing, let's say, English speakers are much more willing to listen to songs in other languages, whether that just wouldn't be as much of an issue anymore. I think they'd be I think if they were starting out now, they'd be pretty big, especially in the US, because Multidoma has been selling out shows. Really? Yeah, in fact, they they played San Francisco in May, and they played the venue, the Warfield, which bands like Motorhead played, and, you know, some pretty, pretty big name bands could fill up. And so Multidoma had to play two shows there over a weekend, because they were selling out. So I think if bands like that can can do it, and you know, groups like She Passed Away, which is a pretty popular goth group from Turkey, they play here and they do well. And of course, Strap Majesty does really well. Love Strap Majesty. Yeah, I think they could do well. I think they really could. And being, you know, female fronted and having, you know, that presence as well, I think would do them well. Oh, I forgot to mention this. Their Spotify bio is one of the most sexist dismissive things I've ever read in my fighting life. It made me so angry. It's so dismissive. It's like, sounding like witches. After selling out, they inevitably broke up. Constantly comparing them to Susie and the Banshees. Like, really, really. So what's his name? Michael Sutton from Rovi. I'm calling you out. Like, it's such nonsense. I really hope someone rewrites it. And I was just like, oh, my God, we are in 2023, and still kind of bands with more women in them than men, still getting kind of, yeah, singled out and seen in a not-so-positive way. That really pissed me off. But yeah, they've got such a great sound. And yeah, I forgot to mention, finally, we're talking about her look. I read in an interview that she used to have really, really long hair. And before she went into the band, she cut off her hair because she was going to be a hair model, apparently. But yeah, she's a very striking, attractive woman. I went on her website. She's now an artist. She does some very interesting kind of colourful pieces. So I recommend checking out Hania Hoover's website. I've asked everyone. Yeah. You know, this is the first time Anne, Judy and Banshee, they're both touring this year. So there's something definitely in the goth waters of some sort of revival. A potion is brewing. Maybe we can send an email over to Germany and say, hey, guys, come on. Yeah. One last time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think Stranglers are still touring as well, right? So yeah. The guitarist, what was his name? Manuel? Manuel something. I forget his name. Apologies. But he passed away not too long ago. But yeah, unfortunately, he would no longer be able to join them. But, you know, if Hania is fronting the band, then they could really, I mean, she is the sound of the band. This is the thing, actually, again, something else I forgot to mention. I read that I think there was some pressure on her to go solo in the same way they were saying how they were pressurizing Bjork to go solo when she was in the Sugar Cues. But Hania was like, no, like this is my band. There is no band without them. And again, I think this is just like, you know, bad interpersonal relationships that record labels really screwed them here, which is a shame. So Hania, come back. Please come back. Come back, Hania. Also, going back to Fran just talking about there's something going on with the goth water or whatever. I saw the Sisters of Mercy this year and one of the worst concerts I've ever been to. You know, like and I had heard stories like I had heard that Andrew Eldridge just doesn't sound good anymore and whatever. And I was like, well, yeah, but, you know, this corrosion, I got to hear it live just, you know, just to hear it. And yeah, he super awkward on stage, like he's not very engaging with the audience. He's doing weird like karate moves or it's almost like he's doing like, you know, weird movements like Elvis in his Vegas days or something, you know, just like he's acting really weird. And then sometimes the lighting was weird, like they didn't really show him that well. And sometimes the lighting was only showing his lower half. And I'm just like, OK. And the people he has in the band now, it's almost like he's trying to be like a 80s rock band, like a glam rock band or something, because the way they were playing the guitars and everything, I was like, are we are we watching like Poison or something? Because they were just like, you know, shredding and doing all this stuff, like standing up the front, you know, of the crowd and like almost like guitar hero level stunts. And it's just kind of it was a little ridiculous. And his audio sounded really bad and a very disappointing show. OK, well, maybe goth waters, maybe that's new as well, by the way. Maybe they need to adjust the potion and, you know, add a few more, you know, toad eyes or something and remove the mouse feet or something like that. The potion is incorrect, guys. Get the witches on it. Yeah, get those witches on it. Yeah. Howling witches. Oh, my God. Yeah. But yeah. Great. How lovely to be in agreement. How lovely to be in agreement. We've had some very harmonious podcasts recently. We're starting to get to know each other better. But yeah, as ever, Ryan, I mean, we will mention this in the intro, but you are our first returning guest and you have guested on our podcast before talking about grunge. We talked about Pearl Jam and L7. Yeah. But you have your own podcast. So tell us more about that. Yes. So the Broken Record Player podcast, which has been going for three years now, which I find it hard to believe. It's been three years. Thank you. Seventy one episodes. We just did our seventy first episode on Stoner Metal. We've been changing it up a bit. So the point of the podcast was to focus on albums and kind of just talk about one album at a time. But then I kind of got a little bored with that. And so what we started doing was doing different things like, hey, what are our favorite albums of this decade or favorite albums of the year? Or let's explore a genre and talk about the best albums from that specific genre. And we did a we did a poll on Instagram. People voted. There were four categories, Stoner Metal, Glam Metal, EDM, and I believe the other one was a Groove Metal. So and these were random, like I plugged in a bunch of genres to a random like wheel basically online and it chose those four. So I just had people vote on them and Stoner Metal won pretty, pretty handedly. So we explored that. It was a lot of fun. Got to listen to a lot of doomy, heavy Stoner Metal that Black Sabbath really inspired. And I don't smoke a ton of weed, but I have been known to dabble before. So it was kind of fun. That's right. That's right. But yeah, we're we're still still plugging along. I have a co-host now. That's cool. My friend Oscar, he and I worked at a record store together and I was getting to the point where the podcast was just becoming a lot of work to do on my own. And so I decided to and I was trying to do like three episodes a month. It was just there was a lot of just kind of it was it was a struggle to keep up with it and to do the social media aspect of it, which to be honest, I really hate the social media. I was about to say your Instagram is one of my favorite music podcast Instagrams because you just you really talk about the music and you talk about the music, the passion and when you do the countdown. So, yeah, I would often do these. Yeah. Like you said, a few years of genres, you'll put the album. I mean, I also do the social media podcast and I know like whenever you do a top 10 of anything and you need to find the image and find the music and think of the description, it might it might be a pain and I certainly get that. But, you know, it is good. So hold on. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it can be very stressful just to keep up with everything and hitting the algorithms at the right time and, you know, being consistent with posting. It can be a little bit of a grind. But yeah, my friend Oscar, he stepped in and he's he's good to bounce ideas off of. And, you know, we get into it a little bit because sometimes we have different opinions, which is great because I don't always like to be in sync. You know, it's kind of nice that for entertainment's sake to have somebody who has some different opinions about, you know, what you're talking about. So it's fun to kind of go back and forth with him, for sure. So. Great stuff. Well, I would say check out the new episodes. But I have guessed it, I think, three times on on Ryan's podcast before. So I would recommend checking in on Chemical Brothers and TK Harvey. Just, you know, just because. Well, thank you both for having me on. Just to kind of say goodbye, Fran, anything to add before we finish? For further listening, this week we had a new album from Blur. We had a new EP from Block Party and we had a new album from the Mull Historical Society that I can highly recommend. Oh, OK. See, I was listening to Texas and Wu-Tang Clan back in the 90s, which I had completely forgotten about. I would recommend checking out the 1998 Brit Awards with Method Man singing with Charlene Spiteri. It is, it should not work. It does work. Then finally at Gardner they ask about their friendship. It's great. I love those kind of unusual collaborations. So I would say that. And of course, support live music. Ryan, thank you so much for coming today. See you next time. Thanks again. Thank you. Bye.