Ep 39 Patrick Henry Sherrill

Hi, I'm Jess and I'm Tiff and we're your curious cousins where we talk about everything kooky and spooky in the state of Oklahoma. Welcome to episode 39. I lost count. I didn't even know which one it was. I feel like it's been a while. Sorry, I just spit everywhere. Yes it has, but I looked it up when I was typing in my notes today. 39. Yay! Who knew? We made it. We're almost to our 40s. If you hear in the background it sounds like there's a water feature. That's because my turtle habitat is home for the summer from my classroom and they have to share the pod lab with us. So shout out to Gus and Nugget, my two little turtles that are currently sitting on top of each other. They're actually getting along. Yes, for now, for now. So please excuse the sound quality that is happening. That is happening. No, we are not by a babbling brook, but the habitat makes you think we are. How are you? I'm good. Good, just got back from Houston last week. I did. Saying goodbye to some of our favorite listeners, even though they'll be listeners internationally now. If you guys didn't know, my brother's moving because family's moving to the Netherlands. Yes, so yeah, bittersweet, but maybe they could provide a little Oklahoma history. Yeah, and you know, we'll go visit, of course. It'll be so much fun. I'm excited to think about it. Yeah. How are you? I'm good. We were supposed to record yesterday, but I went to the optometrist. Yes. And they did all sorts of testing on my eyes because apparently I am old now. I'm scared to go. I have always prided myself with my stellar perfect eye vision. And of course, the older I get, the less and less sharp it becomes. And yesterday, you know, I went through all the regular tests, feeling good, you know. Of course, I can't read the very smallest line far away anymore. I got to read the second line now, the second smallest, and come to find out that it's possible to have early-onset cataracts. I didn't know people my age could get that, but they believe it's due to nasal spray usage because I have wonderful Oklahoma allergies. So obviously, I have to cease using nasal spray, and we'll just kind of monitor it because it's not really impeding my sight at all. Obviously, cataracts can be removed, but I never, ever thought in a million years I'd ever be having eyesight surgery or eye surgery. So yeah. But I'm good. I'm good. It's still scary. Yeah, and I'm having to wear glasses more than I have ever worn in my life, which kind of does not make me happy. But because it's really weird to like go from being able to see to not being able to see, I can't relate. I know that Chris was just like... I've had glasses since I was like 8 years old. I know. And my friend, Gwen, was like, you can read that bottom line like I can. And she goes, I've never in my life been able to read the bottom line. And I was like, oh. I go, well, I've never in my life not been able to read it. It's really disconcerting. So, yeah. Age is great. I love it. I know. Other than that, I don't know if we really have any news. Oh, you know what we need to talk about? Yeah, I do. Our True Crime Fest. I know, our True Crime Fest. We've had people wanting to hear about it. We hope that you guys enjoyed our episode last week with the sirens or Raven. She put it on. We got to talk to Raven about some Oklahoma witchcraft. Yes. And if you were really at that separately interest you, we encourage you to go over to the sirens network and, you know, continue on because that was just really kind of part one or part two. I can't remember. Yeah, I think that was like the first segment or supposed to be like the first segments of it. So, you guys go and check that out. And we did another collab with her a few weeks ago now. And so, we'll have another episode coming out with them. Yeah, I'm not sure when. I don't remember either. So, but just keep looking for that. We really appreciate everything that Raven and Mandy have done for us. We love them. We love them both so much. And yeah, the True Crime Fest. Yeah. I had so much fun. How about you? I did. I did. We met a lot of great people. We did meet a lot of neat people. Yes. And shout out to Murder and Mimosas because they said we looked cute in our t-shirts. And she was so kind. She was very kind. I mean, everybody we met really was really kind and supportive and like we're so interested in what we do. Well, it was funny once they heard we were an Oklahoma podcast. They were like, oh, we should talk to you. I know. So, we made some really great connections. We met two great authors. One based here in Tulsa. Like, she lives here in Tulsa. So, we're totally going to need to be getting her on the show talking to us. Oh, sure. Talking about the murder of her cousin. Yeah. And it was so, so cool. And then the other author who wrote about the Arkansas hitchhiker killer. Which I didn't even know was a thing. I didn't either. But you know, there's speculation that he did kill into Oklahoma as well. Yeah, that's true. So, a lot of great, great things. And then we got to meet just some other cool podcasts and got to listen to a couple podcasts present. And it was just a great experience for us. Just kind of getting our name out there, I feel like. And putting a face to us and putting a face to the other podcasts that we like to listen to. Yeah, that's true. So, I look forward to potentially getting something like that in Oklahoma. Oh, yeah. I think in Oklahoma that would just be... Not that it wasn't beneficial for us in Arkansas, but at least in Oklahoma we can relate a little more. Right. And I wonder if anybody... I don't know if that's the right way to say it. Yeah. No, I think so. I get what you're saying. Yeah. Something that I picked up while we were there is there is an Arkansas podcasting network. Yes. And I don't know that there's one in Oklahoma yet. I don't know. But I did notice that there are several Facebook pages that are devoted to that, and we have started to become members of those. Right. And so it would be just cool if at some point we can all just get together. I know that we already have... Guys, we have this group message with some of our favorite podcasts, including The Sirens. And you're doing fine, Oklahoma. And Mystery Love Company. And Eerie Yokey. And who else is on it? Is that it? I think that might be it. I think that's it. I think that is it. I can't remember now. If we're missing somebody, I apologize. Actually, hang on. Let me look it up because now I don't want to miss anybody. I could miss myself. I mean, we have our own group name, too. We're called The Starlings. And it is... Yeah. Eerie Yokey, The Sirens. You're doing fine at Mystery Love, so we got it all right, so you can delete this whole part. But we do, and we do have where we kind of share ideas and bounce stuff off of each other. And we just support each other, which I think is fantastic. And we're all women-owned and Oklahomans. Please ignore Siri. Well, and hopefully we can all meet up sometime, too, because I think that would be really fun. I really am, now that my schedule is kind of freed up, need to plan a Tunnels tour here in Tulsa just for us, just for us podcasters. And, yeah, just to do that. That would be so much fun. So, are you ready for some true crime? I am. I'm doing a very well-known case today, and I think it's only going to be one part. Okay. A lot of other podcasts have covered it. Okay. A lot. It is very famous. It is nationally famous. So, when I say this name, everybody will definitely know who I'm talking about. Okay. And I am covering Patrick Henry Sherrill. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I did not know a lot about him. I definitely did not know any of his background, and I really did dive deep into a lot of his background. But I did not know a lot of this stuff about him. Granted, his crime happened when I was three years old, and I don't even know that we were living in Oklahoma at the time. We may have still been in North Carolina. So, it's just – it's crazy, but a lot of the people affected by the massacre – I mean, to say the least – the massacre that he – a rampage he went on, a lot of those people are still alive. Right. Most of the people are still alive who were able to live through it. So, I did check his Murderpedia file and Wikipedia. Oklahoma Historical Society had a whole article of him. And, of course, the deep dive into my favorite newspaper.com over – and not only the Daily Oklahoman covered him. Like, it was nationwide news. Wow. So, I got lots of things from the Chicago Tribune and the L.A. Times, the New York Times. So, big newspapers. All over. Yeah. So, we'll start off with Patrick Henry Sherrill. He was born November 13, 1941, in Watonga, Oklahoma, and died August 20, 1986, in Edmond. He was born and raised in Watonga. He had an older brother and a sister who I still believe are both living, so I did not mention any of their names. Okay. His parents owned a farm and a cafe there in Watonga. In about the mid-1950s, though, the family sold the farm and the cafe and decided to move to Oklahoma City, where Sherrill – he then enrolled at Harding High School. Okay. So, at this point, he was in high school. Mm-hmm. He was described as taller than most of his peers, very muscular and athletic. He lettered in football and wrestling and track and field. He barely made passable grades, but he was normal and didn't cause any trouble. Just kind of your all-American kid next door. Yeah, average kid. During these teen years at Harding, Sherrill's father did pass away. It was at this time there was a family – there was a secret or a rumor that went around that there was a family secret regarding his dad, something along the lines that his dad suffered from a mental illness. Oh. It didn't mention which mental illness, but that he had one. Well, of course, back then, that's something you never talk about. No, no, no. And it was reported that Sherrill had told a friend that he was, quote, never going to get married and pass the bad genes on. Oh. I don't know that there was any proof that he ever said that, besides maybe just a friend saying that he had said that at one time. Right. But I don't know if there's any reason why his friend would lie about that. He did graduate from Harding High School in 1951 and enrolled at the University of Oklahoma on a wrestling scholarship. However, he ended up dropping out in 1960. And for a period of four years, there wasn't really anything going on with him. And in 1964, he enlisted in the United States Marine Corps. He qualified as an expert with an M14 rifle. This is kind of the first time that we see little blimps on the radar of Sherrill kind of resisting people with authority. So keep that in mind this whole time. Okay. He did tell people that he had spent time in Vietnam. However, most of his tours were at Camp Lejeune in North Carolina. I don't know that he spent a lot of time in Vietnam or even had much combat in Vietnam. But he did tell people that. He did drop down from being an expert to simply being a marksman in his rifle, which is kind of odd. Like he lost the skill. But upon dropping down, he ended up becoming an expert with a pistol. And I just want to point out that his ability to fire a firearm, he was very lethal. He was very, very well trained. Right. Sherrill only seemed to earn badges or honors in the Marine Corps with firearms and some good behavior. Not anything else. Like not rescuing anybody or anything. I don't know. Heroic is not really the right word. Yeah, I get what you mean. Yeah. In 1966, Sherrill received his letter of discharge under honorable conditions. This is different from an honorable discharge. It's kind of like a step down. I guess there's different levels. I mean, obviously, there's different levels of discharge you can have. James, hit us up. Right. So I believe James. My father had honorable discharges. Right. And he had an honorable condition type of discharge. I don't even know if I've ever heard of honorable conditions before. I hadn't either. And shame on me for not contacting my dad. Yeah, your dad, my brother. 22 years in the Marine Corps. Yeah. In my mind, that's like another red flag. Like, oh, he's an expert in rifle. He's learning to resist authority. And he didn't get an honorable discharge. He had honorable conditions. This is hindsight of 2020. You'll probably say that a thousand times. But this seems very suspicious to me. In 1967, Sherrill enrolled at Central State, which is now UCO. He seemed directionless, though. Like, he couldn't decide on a major. He dropped out of many classes. And the classes that he was able to complete in grades were kind of passable. Mediocre. Yeah. In 1970, he dropped out completely again and decided he was just going to move back home with his mom in Oklahoma City. Friends reported this time that he seemed to have, like, a short fuse. And they often witnessed him just yelling at his mother. Oh. His employment was off and on, typically off. Just kind of living off of his mom at this point. He went to join the Oklahoma Air National Guard. However, many working at the facility thought he was just guard-bumming. And I didn't know what that meant. And so when I looked it up, it was kind of like just hanging out at the guard base trying to maybe, like, act like you were one of them. Ah. A poser. There you go. There you go. It was quoted. It was quoted from a female civilian employee of the 219th EI Squadron who had encountered Cheryl several times while he was attempting to enlist. And then she also afterwards, she would kind of come in contact with him. She formed some distinct ideas about him, later saying, I just got the impression, you know, he's a weird guy. He always struck me as one of those men that, you know, peeped in windows and molested little kids. Ooh. There's never been any reports of him molesting children. Yeah. Peeping in windows, yes. Molesting children, no. It's still, like, a harsh thing to say. Right, right. I mean, like, that's still a harsh. Right. When she was asked, like, what gave her that impression, she replied, just his mannerisms, the way he would look. He's the first man ever in my life, and I have dealt with men all my life and worked with them, that I felt like I was nude standing there talking to him or sitting there. She commented that she had told her male associates, don't leave me in the building by myself with him. Wow. And, you know, as a woman, and you as a woman, we are told to trust those instincts. Yeah. And if she got that from being around him, I would definitely, I would have been with her. I would have trusted my instincts. Don't leave me alone with those buildings with him. Yeah. Her creep radar was up. Yeah, it was going off. After several attempts at gaining employment with the National Guard, Cheryl actually landed a job as a civilian maintenance employee with Tinker Air Force Base. That's there in Midwest City. In 1977, Cheryl's mother, she becomes just wracked with Alzheimer's disease. She is then unable to care for the home or herself, thus she has to move into a nursing home. Rectal disease. Right, right. She was known for her tidiness and her cleanliness of her home and her yard. However, with her out of the home, Cheryl was allowed it to become very cluttered and dirty. Sounds like our grandmother. I mean, like the tidy in the yard. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not the dirty and cluttered. No, not the dirty, no. You could probably at one time eat off of her floor. Oh, yeah. This is where Cheryl's real love of ham radio seems to uptick. The house is just cluttered with radio, equipment, and parts. Even the yard was, but I can see your face. Well, I'm thinking of the Incredibles when they're sitting on a car listening to the ham radio. Okay, ham radio. I didn't know what a ham radio was. Well, isn't that what it is? I don't know. Well, I had to look it up. This is my definition of what a ham radio is. It is an amateur radio, also known as a ham radio, is the use of the radio frequency spectrum for purposes of noncommercial exchange of messages, wireless experimentation, self-training, private recreation, radio sport, contesting, and emergency communications. Yeah, kind of like truck drivers. Kind of like that, I think. I think you're right, yeah. So this hobby and skill of being able to be a ham radioer led Cheryl to volunteering for the American Red Cross in emergency operations. Interesting. So at this point now, five radio antennas are erected in his yard. Oh, my gosh. And on top of that, neighbors comment on the piles of Playboy and Hustler magazine and Paramilitary. Just lying around? Yeah, magazines just accumulated inside and outside of the house. Neighbors were definitely used to the tidy mother. Thus, they just determined Cheryl, without his mother present, would just turn into a pack rat. Right. That's what they just chalked it up to. In 1978, Cheryl's mother does pass away, and the house just falls into disrepair. And this is after only like one year of her not being in the house. Quick. That same year, Cheryl loses his job at Tinker. He then started work at a local radio store as an installer, but he walked out after this ridiculous encounter. Let me tell you about it. When a customer had asked for assistance, an older employee nodded towards Cheryl and suggested that the young man over there would help. Apparently, Cheryl snapped and glared at this man. He's like, I have a given name, and it's Patrick Cheryl. And with that, he just stormed out of the store and never returned. I wonder, you might talk about this later, I wonder if he had like some mental, like bipolar or something like that. Okay, there's going to be so many instances of these examples that I'm going to give you that just you have to realize that there's got to be something going on in there. The crazy thing is Cheryl found his next job with the FAA. So if nothing comes away from the story, Cheryl had the ability of landing fantastic jobs. Right, yeah. And he was super intelligent, and especially in the electronics area. And I think in the military at one time it had mentioned that he trained in that area. He had a love for it. Yeah. And so he was able to get these really great jobs, but his inability to, you know, take authority, you're going to see even more that he really struggled with it throughout his lifetime. Many co-workers thought Cheryl was former military, which she was, based on his meticulous appearance. Like his shoes were shined, his shirts were tucked in, his hair was always perfect. Which is interesting considering how his house was. Yeah, right? I thought so too. But most people described him as lonely, and you're going to find this when you look at his life is kind of an element that also sticks around throughout most of his life. He just always seems very lonely. He was rumored to have exposed himself to a female employee at one time. At work, his clothing seemed out of style. It was very meticulous, but it was almost like he dressed as if he was in the 50s, and this is the 70s. So, I mean, it had to be so outdated-ish. Herb Cardwell said that Cheryl was a great ham radio person. So over the radio, he had this great personality, and people loved him, but it was difficult to have face-to-face person conversations with him. After a particularly rude conversation where Cardwell tried to talk to Cheryl about their common hobby of ham radio, Cardwell just wrote him off and was like, all right, that's the way you're going to be. Don't even worry about it. Interesting. That is until Cheryl just showed up at Cardwell's home one evening uninvited, which is super scary. And creepy. Cardwell wouldn't let Cheryl in. Something inside him told him not to let him inside the house. Didn't let him inside, but they stayed on the porch for 30 minutes talking about ham radioing, and then he just left. Weird. And so in my mind, I was like, he just wanted a friend, and I just don't know that he knew how to go about- He sounds very socially awkward. Right, right, 100%, 100%. Or socially inept, maybe. Right. I think so. I think you're right. Cardwell, he was one of the supervisors over him, the FFA. Let me start that over. Erase that part. He was not the FFA. Cardwell was one- Sorry. That's okay. Let's show some hands. Cardwell was one of the FAA supervisors, and so one of his jobs as the supervisor was investigating plane crashes. And when one particular crash was reported, Cheryl asked Cardwell, are you going to go investigate it? Are you going to investigate it? And Cardwell wasn't assigned to it, and he said, no, I'm not going to. And something in him specifically made him tell Cheryl to stay away from it. Oh, interesting. Cheryl ignored the orders and had to be sent away from the scene by officials, like FAA officials. Huh. Now, while at the FAA, several reports of Cheryl sexually harassing women were reported. Now, this was a different time. I know that. But it still makes my blood boil. Okay. Because he was never really reprimanded for any of it. He never showed any weird sexual behavior towards men. I'm so glad that that was noted because he had a laundry list of it against women. But let's make sure that we point out that he had nothing weird against men. He tended to just stare at women, making them feel uncomfortable. He would rub up against them. That's a good way to get throat punched. Right. I'm just saying. Okay. But what finally got him fired from the FAA was when he cornered a woman in an elevator refusing to let her get off of the elevator. So it took him literally trapping a woman before they saw the problem to let him go. Oh, gosh. Oh, man. Good grief. It makes you wonder how many incidences like that. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, he was brazen enough to think that he could do it. Well, obviously he thought he was going to get away with it. Exactly. I mean, rubbing yourself up against somebody. No. No. It's a good way to get your. Like I hear you. Not have children ever. In August of 1982, Cheryl joins the United States Air Force. This seems to give Cheryl a sense of identity. Filled his idle time up. I think when I looked at his case and I really dived into it, he was somebody that was struggling socially, that had no identity for himself, and needed somewhere or something to belong to. So he chose the Marine Corps. He was discharged. You know, he tried to get the Air National Guard. Then he gets into the Air Force. And then this next thing, he was a biking enthusiast. He barely drove a car everywhere. His preferred method of transportation was his bike. And so I think. You're talking about like cycling. Like cycling, yeah. And I think how you said that he was socially inept or awkward, I don't think he knew how to join people. I don't want to speculate. I have a question. Okay, you said his siblings were older. Do you know how much older they were? I don't know how much older they were. Because it doesn't sound like he was very close to them. No, I don't think that he was particularly close with them. In fact, in a lot of the reports that I said, they never mentioned the brother or sister. They would mention relatives would say this about him, relatives. And so it even went on to say that he was a good uncle. So I don't know if they got nieces and nephews to talk. But I think his brother and sister were probably quite a bit older maybe. And so because a lot of his tendencies, it sounds like he was almost raised like an only child. Right. Well, and that's why. Yeah. So it's hard. I don't know for sure. Yeah. I don't know for sure. Yeah, because it sounds like he, when you don't have, you know, well, okay. Sorry. This is interesting, too, because you said in high school, like, he was in sports, and he seemed very athletic. So he had a purpose there, and he had a team. Yeah. And then, yeah, I don't know. Sorry, I'm just trying to. No, it's, he's a hard, he's a hard. I'm just trying to psychoanalyze, which I shouldn't because I don't have a degree. Right. He would informally join these biking tour groups, usually uninvited. There was this annual free will tour in which members would pedal across the entire state of Oklahoma. Cheryl just showed up one day without the necessary provisions or the required sleeping bag that you were supposed to have. One of the club officers provided him with a blanket. But at the overnight campsite, Cheryl would crawl under a trailer and use it as a shelter for him to sleep under. So it was just kind of like he wanted to be a part of this group, but it's like he didn't know how to be a part of the group, you know. Yeah. At this time, he applied for the first time for a job at the United States Postal Service. He worked for a total of 89 days. Cheryl left after he was unable to qualify for the job. They had given him 90 days to demonstrate that he was capable and could pass other tests. He was unable to do that, and he left. In 1984, he became a stockroom clerk for the Oklahoma chapter of the American Cancer Society. His sister did help him get this. She was one of the directors there and was able to help him get this job. That lasted eight months, but he left because he said he needed to make more money. At this time, Cheryl attended a training course to become a firearms instructor in the Air Force. He went to Lackland Air Force Base, which is near San Antonio, Texas. And according to an officer stationed there, the school is one of the finest available for instructor development courses in small arms training. So here he is training with guns again. Shaking his head in disbelief, the officer said he had observed Cheryl in the classroom and on the firing range and could not understand how he could have successfully completed it. So he thought there was something up with this guy. Cheryl, he said, was nonproductive in the classroom and would make a poor firearms instructor seeming smart enough but often acting slow. His demeanor, the officer had said, was such that people did not want to associate with him or help him. The rumors circulated that Cheryl was homosexual, but the officer saw nothing to substantiate it. In any case, he said he wouldn't want Cheryl to babysit any kids. Which, again, is Einstein of 2020, but people's weird factors are going off. Yeah, well, and it's just so weird because it's like everything keeps contradicting itself about him. Like, oh, he's smart, but he's acting slow. Oh, well, he's, you know. Right. And, you know, remember, this is 1984. It is a big, like, you know, homosexuality is a big taboo. I mean, it would literally get you killed, get you ostracized from society. And so there's that, but he never claimed to be homosexual. He never claimed to have any, you know, have any type of relationship like that or have any feelings that way. In fact, he has a laundry list of harassment against women. Right. But something weird was off with him, socially weird. Maybe he was on the autism spectrum, you know, but I think you're right. The way that he's portrayed, his personalities contradict each other. Yeah. Constantly. Yeah. In differing reports, and it's almost like he knew how to act at times, and then at other times he let his real self show. And that one was the scary one or the creepy one, maybe. Yeah. I don't know. It's just crazy to try and think it through. Yeah. So like I pointed out before, you know, this was the 1980s. Also, I wanted to remind everyone from our episode over the abandoned hospitals, mental health funding at this time was on the decline. Right. And it is extremely taboo, especially with men. We did not talk about our feelings. But there were so many signs pointing in that direction. And I know, like I said before, like I just said, hindsight is 20-20. It really is. And looking at it now through our lenses, it's so different. But I just – sometimes it's appalling when you see all the signs. Yeah. And still, like this tragedy still happened. Despite all of these personality quirks, Cheryl was an excellent shot, which is chilling when you know what he does. Yeah. It's chilling. Absolutely. And he was able to develop a lasting friendship with a man named Vincent Stubbs. Vincent Stubbs was assigned to the quarters in the same barracks as Cheryl and 40 other class members during this nine-week instructional training course. He became one of the few people to befriend Cheryl. The two men ate their meals together and toured San Antonio during their off-duty hours. They would later keep in touch by mail. Stubbs described his 42-year-old buddy as an overweight bachelor who always expressed concern that he was going nowhere. So there you kind of see, like, he felt out of place somehow. He also said that his main interests in life were guns, ham radio, and bicycling. Cheryl, he said, was very intelligent, understood electronics, and was the most precise person he'd ever known. This is still Stubbs talking. During a rigorous training, Stubbs said that they were taught how to handle and shoot almost every kind of weapon. Cheryl was an excellent shot whose favorite handgun was a .45 automatic. And for some reason, Stubbs recalls this, Cheryl disliked one of the female instructors. So here we go. Female instructors and took every opportunity to give her a hard time. He's probably lucky he didn't get punched in the throat. Yeah. Cheryl was known just to be this upstanding kind of guy because, and I am somebody who often reads the Bible. But he's doing all this gross stuff. And they're like, oh, but he's an upstanding guy because he reads the Bible every night before he goes to bed. I have so many thoughts on this. Right. I mean, back home, his neighbors were like, he's hard to get along with. They all thought he was just nosy. For instance, one of his neighbors, she had some kids that were at her door trying to sell candy. And they were there at her entryway making their pitch or whatever. And Cheryl, he just decides to walk himself up the street and ask what they were saying. She, this girl, this boss babe right here, looked at him and said, none of your business. He comes back and says, do you know who I am? And she goes, yes, I know who you are. Now get off my property and get away from my house. Cheryl, this woman, her name was Mrs. Eastman. She says that Cheryl just stared intensely at her but backed away into the street when she stepped off her porch and started walking in his direction. Oh. So she was going to give him what I think every woman at this point in the podcast probably wanted to do. Right. Many of the neighbors observed Cheryl often walking late at night down the street pacing, muttering, staring into houses that didn't have window coverings. That's so creepy. He was often seen approaching the homes to get a better look at what was going on inside. There were several police complaints made, yet guess what? Nothing happened. Nothing happened. He was never arrested. It was reported that after, I don't know, numerous run-ins with the police, Cheryl invested in a telescope to continue his peeping. But everyone said he was never violent, but he had a hard stare that frightened many. He wasn't violent, but he'd go creep in people's windows like a weirdo. Mm-hmm. Cheryl was a dog guy, which I'm going to later contradict this story, I'm sure, but he was a dog guy. He owned a pit bull that he kept mostly inside. One day it escaped and attacked a small terrier. The terrier's owner struggled to get the dogs apart and ended up kicking Cheryl's pit bull. But this time Cheryl witnessed the whole thing. He wasn't trying to help separate the dogs. He witnessed the other owner kick his dog and just went into a rage, yelling, screaming. And again, I'm telling you right now, this is signs of him being unhinged at times, something going on. Then at another time in the neighborhood there was this girl that he had really pined over in high school. They never dated, but she ended up moving back to Oklahoma City and moving onto his street with her husband, with her family. What are the odds of that? Right, exactly. Right after she moved in, she started receiving these phone calls, and it was the obscene, the heavy breathing. I was going to ask, was there the heavy breathing? Yeah, the heavy breathing. Well, then after a few of those phone calls, he started to say really inappropriate, obscene things. But guess what? She recognized his voice and literally said, again, here's another total boss babe here, Pat, stop calling. And he did. So when he's confronted with a strong woman, he does back down, or these two instances he did, at least. The neighbors, to sum it up, they really thought Cheryl was just a nuisance. They thought he was an utter nuisance. Children called him crazy. Pat, get this story. This is one of the stories that I just, I don't know. Again, I'm looking at it after the fact. These kids would call him crazy, Pat, because any time that kids were grouped in the neighborhood, I mean, my own kids got their own bicycle gang in our neighborhood. So their bicycle gang might be stopped at a corner, laughing, giggling, being kids or whatever. He would go berserk on them and start yelling at them or go to their parents and tell them that their kids are, like, laughing and pointing and making fun of him. He had this paranoia about him that everybody was out to get him. I wonder where that came from. I wonder if it was just something that was, like, it just makes you wonder if, like, something had happened in his past. I feel like at one point they had mentioned, like, in high school he may have had, like, a little bit of a bullying incident that may have happened. But in most reports, I mean, a lot, they had, they interviewed a lot of his teachers. And they were all like, he was a good kid. And so it was just kind of, I wonder if part of it, too, is he's just so lonely. And he felt so awkward and outside that he always just assumed that people were making fun of him because he couldn't develop a relationship appropriately. Well, he seems like he was ostracized. Yes. But, I mean, part of that seems like it was his doing. Right, right. As well. Right. But, you know, it just goes to show how important mental health is. Right. I think so. And maybe how, I don't want to blame anybody else for being unkind to him because, of course, they're not going to report on the people who are unkind to him. But I think it's also important to remind ourselves that we have to be kind. Right. Because you don't know what other people are going through. Right. It's all about the golden rule. You treat people the way you want to be treated. Right. But here he is. Like, kids can't even be giggling or laughing in his vicinity or else he's going to, like, go berserk. I mean, how scary is that? I don't know. He's definitely a puzzle that will never be able to be pieced together. Right. In October of 1984, Cheryl's time with the United States Air Force comes to an end. Within days of this happening, he telephoned the woman. Remember when he was trying to get on with the Air National Guard and that one woman didn't want to be left alone with him that late? Right. Yeah. He telephoned her. And he was asking her for her advice about reenlisting. She didn't want to encourage him. To the National Guard? Yeah, to the National Guard. She didn't want to encourage him, but she did end up suggesting the appropriate officials that he could contact. Shortly after that, an officer approached her to solicit her opinion about accepting Cheryl. She answered, you can do what you want to, but, you know, I wouldn't accept him. Do what you think is best. Guess what? Hang on. I didn't know if that was going to make sense. Okay. Guess what? What? Cheryl became a member of the 137th Squadron as a combat arms instructor with the rank of sergeant. I don't even know what to think about that right now. Just right now, it just goes to tell you how much they valued females. Yeah. Cheryl was invited to try out for the Air National Guard's markmanship team. He had a great reputation. He was thoughtful and courteous. In April of 1985, he again applied with the Postal Service again. I just – it baffles me how back and forth he goes. He was kind and courteous, and then he's a crazy coot. Right. It's just baffling. I mean, it's exhausting that his personality could keep up. I mean, maybe he did have multiple personalities. Maybe that's what the deal was. So this time – Sorry. No, you're fine. This time, Cheryl passes the written exam and the physical exam. At that time, there was no psychology exam given. There is one now. I researched it up because I was like, is that normal? My research does show that there are several exams that someone does have to pass in order to work for the Postal Service, and a psychological exam is part of that process. I don't know that it was in 1985. He started to work part-time. Now, part-time in the post office isn't what it sounds like. The classification means simply that the employee works for an hourly wage, not an annual salary, and is not guaranteed certain working hours. Because of the high volume of mail funneling through the Edmunds facility, which employed at the time about 100 people, Cheryl was able to put in the normal 40 hours each week with some overtime, so he earned approximately $13,000 in his first year, and I did not see how much that would be worth today. But, I mean, that's probably a good – for a single guy, that's probably a good living. Yeah. Worker skills were adequate, yet his social skills were awful. He struggled with relationships with coworkers, especially his superiors, and just these problems at this point, you're going to see they just start really festering. Piling up. Fester, pile up, pile up, and we know how it's going to end. Yeah. In August of 1985, while on a two-week active duty tour with the Air National Guard, Cheryl met back up with his friend Vincent Stubbs, that guy back from San Antonio. Right. They hung out. Stubbs invited Cheryl to family dinners at his home, and Stubbs made this remark that Cheryl seemed super grateful, even stating that no one had ever done that for him before. That's sad. And it just – like, it makes – it breaks your heart for the person that he could have been. Right. Or the person that maybe he wanted to be, because I think that he really, truly did want that kind of relationship with people, and he just couldn't or didn't know how to do it. I don't know. Stubbs did say that Cheryl talked a lot about his USPS job. He seemed to be proud of it, but expressed how unhappy he was with how the people treated him while he was there. Oh. Back when he returned to Edmond, things did not improve. In October of 1985, he gets suspended for seven days. Bill Bland, who was the supervisor of mails and delivery, sent a letter which was handed to Cheryl informing him that he was suspended for seven calendar days, and the reason was stated as being failure to discharge your assigned duties conscientiously and effectively. And here I've got, like, a portion of the letter to read. Okay. On September 19, 1985, you did fail to protect mail entrusted to your care, as evidenced by the fact you left two trays of mail and three parceled post items unattended overnight at 601 Vista Lane. Your failure to discharge your assigned duties conscientiously and effectively resulted in a one-day delay in delivery of approximately 500 pieces of mail, which had been entrusted to your care. That's a lot of mail. It is a lot of mail. In March of 1986, he's suspended again, but for 14 days, and I have part of that letter. On March 31, 1986, you acted in a very unprofessional manner by telling a customer that you did not need her help in finding the apartment mailboxes and did not care if the tenants received mail or not. The customer reported this incident, stated that you were very rude to her, adding that she was only trying to help you find your way around the complex. You again acted in this manner. The customer reported by phone and by customer complaint form that you sprayed his dog with dog spray. The dog was and is behind a five-foot fence with a locked gate. When questioned about the incident, you admitted that you have walked past him many times in the past and was fully aware of the dog's presence behind the fence. You also stated that you had just received a new can of dog spray and was not sure it would work but decided to use it on this dog anyway. You also asked the customer when questioned by him about the incident if he wanted his mail delivered or not. This type of service seems consistent with your past performance evidenced by a suspension given to you on October 2, 1985, and several discussions and a letter of warning. This type of behavior will not and cannot be tolerated. So let's go back to that dog spray. Mailmen do carry – mailmen that walk. Like in the town that I live in, mailmen do not walk. In the town that I grew up in, mailmen did not walk. But I know that a lot of the older communities, like in Oklahoma City, they do – like mailmen still walk. My dad worked as a mailman for a little while after the pandemic. When my dad's parents and my grandma and grandpa lived in Tulsa, their mailmen walked. And I think it's a lot of those older homes because the mailboxes are on the houses and not at the street where they are today. So I'm assuming that he obviously was a walker. And they do carry dog mace because we've all seen the cartoons. Dogs will chase them. So Cheryl did admit that he sprayed the dog with the mace. But he had said that – and he even admitted that the dog didn't actually attack him. It just barked and growled. So he went to spray the dog initially with the mace. And that's when he discovered that his mace bottle did not work. So he left, picked up a new bottle of mace, and the next day with a new can in hand, approached the dog and sprayed it, all in witness of the owner. Oh, my gosh. And I can tell you, if I witnessed somebody mace my dog, again, what the throat-punching would ensue. Well, especially when it's unprovoked. Either that or I will get my can of mace. I'm going to spray you in the face. Unprovoked. All right. At this point, Cheryl truly believed and even reported to several friends that the supervisors were looking at every single minor infraction just as a way to get rid of him. He claimed that he was being timed on his roots when others, specifically women, were not ever timed. I'm rolling my eyes so hard right now. To all it seemed, Cheryl never showed any serious mood swings or changes. They quoted him as being middle of the road when it came to moods. But many did admit that you never did really know what was going on in his head. Well, that's obvious. Do you really know what's going on in anyone's head? I mean, really, no. Many mail carriers would stop by and visit. Okay, sorry. Let me back up. This is one of those instances where you see a whole different side of him now. So here in Edmond, there was this nursing home. I don't know if it's still there, but it's called the Christian Nursing Home. And several of the mail carriers would stop by, and they'd get a glass of lemonade or eat lunch with them and just visit with the residents and the staff there. Well, Cheryl was one of these that often did it. And the people there, they enjoyed his company. And so I think, again, he was lonely, and he was able to forge that type of relationship with people. And so it just baffles me that there were others that he wasn't able to do it. It's like people his own age or younger, he couldn't make that connection. Right, right. And I wonder if it has to do, you know, like it seems like he was with his mom for, like, you know, obviously she had Alzheimer's and was in a nursing home. But I don't know. That's interesting. Yeah, I don't know. On April 5th of 1986, Cheryl checks out a Colt .45 service pistol from his Air National Guard unit. Now, this is common practice, especially if they were coming up for a marksman test. During this training, he agreed to and stated that he understood how to properly store and house the pistol at home. So I'm assuming that must include something like being locked up, away from kids, not out in the open, that kind of stuff, only used for practice, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah. In July of 86, Cheryl is shipped to England for his two-week duty training. He told many that he was being hassled by his supervisors at the post office for this. Cheryl asked for documents that proved where and why he was going to England. He said that the post office was demanding him. But his superiors and the National Guard, like, assured him, we're going to take care of it. They can't do anything to you about this. Right. Being a child whose father was in the military and had to spend two weeks every summer, his work had to understand that. It's like jury duty. Your work has to let you off for it. In fact, when my dad came back, my dad was in the Gulf War. When he came back, his work tried to, like, not hire him back. And my dad's, like, superior officers came in and were like, you don't have a choice. Yeah. So, I mean, I definitely could see where they could be kind of, but it's like, y'all work for a government, the same government. I was going to say, they work for a government, so I don't see that. Right. And the post office tends to, you know, like, to hire veterans. Yeah. Because they're already kind of in the system and understand the way things are. Right. So it's, I don't know. While in England. Oh, that's great. We need to cut that and put that in the blooper reel. Oh, yeah. Ay-yi-yi. That was awesome. While in England, no one wanted to board with Cheryl. And it's one of those times where you're like, God, now I feel sorry for him again. This really disappointed him because he ended up getting assigned a single room on base. Aw. When everybody else had, they were assigned off base with roommates. Some of them even got to house with other people off base. And it really, this really upset him a lot. But everybody was like, well, he seemed pleasant. He smiled a lot. And so that's really scary to me. That he felt, he told people he felt one way, but then he acted a different way. Yeah. Oh, it gives me chills. Yeah. When he returned to Oklahoma, Cheryl's relatives said that Cheryl was disappointed about his time in England. Quote, he expressed disappointment in the trip, calling it unsuccessful and placing blame on his commanding officer. He said the CO had been doing menial, trivial tasks and that he restricted their free time of sightseeing off base. Cheryl seemed to, at first, to enjoy his guard involvement, the relatives said, especially his participation in the marksmanship team. In recent months, though, his interest appeared to diminish and he stopped talking about the team members and competition. More often, he spoke of his problems at the post office, focusing often on two supervisors who he thought were trying to get rid of him. He'd been criticized for misdelivered mail, but rationalized that it wasn't his fault that the mail hadn't been properly pre-sorted. Those letters indicate that wasn't true. According to the relatives, Cheryl said that the only one of his customers complained about his deliveries, a woman in a mobile home park, who was hostile toward him for unknown reasons. Maybe he maced her dog, I don't know. His boss, he complained, was going overboard in meting out disciplinary actions. Cheryl said he wanted to transfer to another job with the postal service, perhaps to the maintenance crew or something more technical than delivering mail. And, oh, if only that would have happened. Did he put in for a transfer? It was never reported that he did. So, after this, Cheryl then checks out another pistol, a Remington .45 semi-automatic. He did this the weekend before he was set to practice with the marksmanship team. He even picked up the allotted 200 rounds that he was supposed to practice with. August 19, 1986. One of the employees glanced up from her work and could see through the glass panel of the supervisor's office where another kind of heat shot up to dangerous levels. No, I won't take that all out. Rewind. August 19, 1986. One of the employees there at the post office glanced up from her work and could see through the glass panel of the supervisor's office that there was another kind of heat, not the kind that was outside because it was August in Oklahoma, was shooting up to dangerous levels. She was quoted as saying, quote, I saw one of our uniformed mail carriers, Pat Sherrill, with supervisors Rick Esser and Bill Bland. Although I could not hear, it was obvious that Pat Sherrill was being reprimanded. I could see the look on his face, which struck me as being very strange, eerie, end quote. Oh, that gave me chills. And this was happening by 1 p.m. the afternoon of the 19th. A third coworker would recall a conversation she had with Sherrill a week earlier on August 12th. She was quoted as saying, quote, I was alone with Patrick in the break room. He was angry at management over some annual leave he had to account for. He said Bland didn't think he, Sherrill, was much to worry about, but he'd be sorry. I said we all know he, Pat, had been having trouble with management. He said, this is Sherrill, they'll be sorry and everyone would know, end quote. That's not ominous at all. Right. August 20th, 1986, 7 a.m., Sherrill walks into the post office with his uniform on, concealing three pistols with ammunition in his mail carrier's back. He opened fire first on Richard Esser, one of his supervisors, then postman Mike Rockne. Sherrill then proceeded to chase down three other employees, mortally shooting one in the back. He bolted several doors, sought out those hiding in cubicles and under tables. He shot three employees dead after he found them hiding at a station and then found another five at a neighboring station and killed them. One employee escaped out the front door while hearing her co-workers' screams and being shot to death. Another was able to successfully hide in the stamp vault while another two hid in a broom closet. Oh, how awful. Police responded quickly, however, spent 45 minutes outside trying to communicate with Sherrill. At 8.45 a.m., Edmund Swatt stormed the post office. They quickly found Sherrill dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head. In the end, a total of 14 dead victims and six injured. Our victims were Patricia Ann Chambers, 41, another part-time clerk, Judy Stephens Denny, 41, a part-time clerk, Richard C. Esser, Jr., 38, supervisor, Patricia A. Gabbard, 47, clerk, Jonah Greger Hamilton, 30, clerk, Patty Jean Husband, 48, supervisor, Betty Ann Jarrett, 34, clerk, and William F. Miller, 30, roll carrier. The 1986 Edmund incident was the first of several highly publicized postal shootings. At the time, it was the third worst mass shooting in U.S. history. Oh, my gosh. It seems that it has set a chain of events of postal shootings after this, including 1991 in Ridgewood, New Jersey, 1991, Royal Oak, Michigan, 1993, actually May 6, 1993, was in Dearborn, Michigan, and then May 6 of 1993, the exact same day, in Dana Point, California. Wow. 1995, Monteclair, New Jersey, 1997, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 2006, Goleta, California. Oh, wow. This event is what coined the phrase, going postal. Oh, my gosh. It is estimated that the total attack lasted between 15 and 20 minutes long. Many people, in fact, played dead to get him to overlook them. I don't blame him. Cheryl was 44 at the time of this, so in the prime of his life. In fact, there was another quote that I think I forgot to include on here. On August 19th, he came in contact with another co-worker, and I don't know if it was the same one that had spoken to him before, but he had asked her, do you plan on coming to work tomorrow? And she was like, well, yeah, of course. And he literally told her, I wouldn't if I were you. I think I remember hearing that. Yeah. So this is kind of one of those kooky facts, and I know because we're known for our kooky and spooky. Before the rampage, Cheryl purchased cinnamon rolls at a nearby convenience store. He had cooked eggs that morning for breakfast. There was water along with those cinnamon rolls were found in his car. So it is speculated that he might not have considered, he might have not thought about unaliving himself, I guess we could say, or, you know, shooting himself at the time. Like maybe he intended to leave and then decided that he wasn't going to get out of there. Now, we're looking at this through the lens of 2023. And when you see this on paper, that they tried to contact him for 45 minutes outside, how many of you were a bit outraged? It took 90 minutes per SWAT to enter the building after the first calls were made. Remember, as of 2023, that is unacceptable to us. But I want everybody to remember, there was no precedent at the time for this type of event. The police did what they knew to do and what at the time they thought was appropriate. Yes, that would not fly today, obviously. They were not used to it like we are today. And so I don't want anybody to think that the police were not doing their job. They were doing the job that was the job of 1986. That wasn't the job they did in 2023. So in the end, many signs I think were there. Cheryl was first and foremost starved of human connection and friendship, I really think. He was unhappy. He was angry at the life that he had been given. His family said he was a good uncle though. Well, part of me kind of thinks, I don't think he would have been happy in any situation. I think you're right. I think you're right. But I don't know. So many people are like, oh, he never showed any violent tendencies. And I have to disagree with that. He had harassment against women. He showed that violent tendency towards children. He yelled at a person who was trying to save his dog from the attack of Cheryl's dog. He maced a dog for barking at him. Are those not violent tendencies? I feel like those are. I mean, they are to me. He did stare a lot. Every single person would claim that he stared a lot. And part of me is like, that doesn't make it killer, staring. But that also makes you think, hey, like socially he's missing a cue there. Well, that and you said he had, a lot of people said he had this intense stare. Right. Well, intense can mean multiple things. Right. I mean, how do you know that intense wasn't like he was trying to intimidate you? Right. Did it look like he was angry? Did it look like he was off in space? Did it look like he was like looking at you like you had something smeared across your face? Right. And that's never reported on either, really. It wasn't covered after this event that Cheryl was treated 42 times between November of 1985 and August of 1986 at a local Edmond chiropractor for neck and back pain associated with carrying mail. So now he's in constant pain. Could that have been a contributing factor? Well, the thing, though, is, too, is it sounded like he had an opportunity to put in for a transfer to the more maintenance. Right. And it sounded like he kind of wanted to or he had the intention to. And if it was that bad, why wouldn't you? Right. Why wouldn't you talk to somebody about that? Right. Most people that he confided in all agreed that he constantly complained about his postal job. So to end, honestly, here I am being an armchair psychiatrist. I'm not a doctor. Right. But I think that this is a classic case of some sort of undiagnosed mental illness. I think so, too. And it's just so unfortunate that in that time, like throughout his whole life, it was just so considered taboo. Right. It is just now starting to be one of those things. I know. Where people aren't ashamed of it. Right. Or not as much anyway. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. And unfortunately, you know, I feel like so many things could have been avoided. Exactly. I see people today going, well, that's rich of you with everything we know in 2023 for you to diagnose him as having a mental illness. Well, if we don't learn, this is a classic case of what happens when they are undiagnosed is what could happen. Well, and there was rumor something ran in, you know, his family. Yeah. History. Right. Exactly. So, you know, I just want to say this, too, that if you are suffering from mental health, please seek help. Guys, this is 2023. It's not anything to be embarrassed about or ashamed of. We all, everyone could use therapy at some point. All of us. I did include some stuff. The National Mental Health Hotline is 866-903-3787. The National Alliance of Mental Health Illness, their hotline is 800-950-6264. You can dial 988 in Oklahoma to talk to someone directly. And I think most states, if you are having an emergency mental health crisis, like you're going to harm yourself, you're going to harm someone else, you can dial that 988 and you can talk to someone instantly. But you're not talking to a machine. You're talking to somebody. Like you may have one question, like what language do you speak? Yeah. And then, of course, there is the Oklahoma specific. It's the Mental Health Association of Oklahoma. You can contact them anytime. They do have time Monday through Friday from 830 to 5 p.m. If you're in the Tulsa area, you can contact them at 918-585-1213. If you're in the Oklahoma City area, you can contact them at 405-943-3700. If you're not in either one of those areas, just pick one and call them, please. There's a form that you can also fill out at mhaok.org, and they will send you stuff. They will have people reach out to you. I will attach all of this stuff in the show notes, but it's one of those classic cases that when we look back on it in our current time, we see that there was a man with mental health issues that did not get help. He took the lives of 14 innocent people, 14 family members, which they are the victims. Their family is the victims. They're the ones that we need to focus on. But for their sake, we need to ensure that others that are having mental health crisis do not repeat this. So, please, if you're having issues, please, please, please seek out help. Let's not forget, it doesn't cost anything to be kind to people. No, of course. You're right. You're right. You don't have to like them, but you can still be nice. Yes, exactly. Your creep factor could be going off, and I'm not saying you don't invite them in or give them a ride. If your creep factor is going off, they don't do that, but don't belittle them. Right. It's not anything to you to be nice to somebody. Yes, exactly. You never know what your words can do to someone. Right. Because they say sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me. That's not true. That's not true. And words can be very hurtful. And in the end, they could hurt the other person. They could hurt you. You just have to be mindful of other people and their feelings and be considerate. Exactly. You never know what other people are doing. I'm sorry for the heavy episode. Well, I mean, it's a true crime one. It's a true crime one, and I always bring it. And it's only a one-parter. Yes. That story, I mean, that was a pretty cut-and-dry case. But I think it's important that we remind ourselves. I was listening to other podcasts or looking around, and nobody's covered it in a while. So it's always good to remember the victims because their anniversary is coming up of the ordeal. And we need to remember them and to remember why it is important for us to get our mental health issues taken care of or those of our loved ones taken care of. And it doesn't cost you anything. Like you said, to be kind, it doesn't cost you anything to ask somebody if they're okay. Right. And, guys, it's okay to not be okay. Exactly. It's okay to not be okay. It's okay not to be okay. All right? For sure. And I know there's lots of online things that you can do, betterhelp.com. You can go there, and you don't even have to meet the people, and you don't even have to be face-to-face with them. Right. There are so many avenues out there now. For real. Just do it. Just do it. I'm knocking things over. So I hope the turtle terrarium didn't bother anybody too badly. It will be gone in August. So when season 2 starts, it will no longer be going. We have decided that we will end season 1 in July. We're going to take off the month of August and then come back at you for season 2 in September. But guess what? You're going to see us all summer. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of things going on in August, and you'll be starting back with school. And so it's just kind of – I think we just kind of need that break a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. It's always nice to take a week off to just regroup ourselves. Yeah. And, of course, it was late because I got my eyes checked, and they were all messed up yesterday. Yeah. There's been a lot going on lately. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah. But I've missed you. I've missed you, too. And I've missed talking with our fans. Yeah. For sure. So we've got some fun stuff planned, though, too. Yeah. Well, do we have anything else? I don't think so. So, Jess, do you want to tell – oh, maybe we should tell them where they can find us. Yes. Oh. Sorry. Really, I think in the future I'm going to – I want to record this and then just put it on at the very end. Like, after we say, bye, and then just say, you can find us at blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. But not today, obviously. And you can cut this whole part out. Well, I, like – I laugh at you when you get it wrong. I know. But I wouldn't – I wouldn't be able to do it myself. Right. Hey, Tiff. Yeah. Tell the people where they can find us. Well, if you are on Facebook, you can find us at CuriousCousinsOKPodcast. If you're on Instagram, you can find us at CuriousCousinsOK. On Twitter, at CuriousCousinsOK. And cousins is spelled C-U-Z-N. You can also reach us on Gmail at CuriousCousinsOKatGmail.com. Send us an email. Any thoughts or concerns or listener ideas or show ideas or tales or – if you just want to say hi, email us. We'll email you back. I promise. We are also located on all major podcasting streaming services such as Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, iHeartRadio, and Amazon. Please rate and review and follow us if you'd be so kind. If you really want to support us, you can join our Patreon at CuriousCousinsOK. We also have subscriptions available on both Apple and Amazon, and they will give you ad-free content and additional content, too, as it starts to come out because it's summertime and we're going to start really amping up our additional content. Yeah, we've got plans. Yes. So, Jess, tell them what to keep it. Keep it kooky and spooky. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.