Hyrbrid Realities Lab Audio Recording Week 4 Session 7

The speaker discusses the concept of hybrid modalities in art curation, specifically the idea of curating for both physical and virtual spaces simultaneously. They mention a curator, Cece Moss, who has curated exhibitions in unconventional locations, such as a box truck, and has created a virtual archive of these exhibitions. The speaker also mentions other examples of hybrid exhibitions, including ones that combine physical installations with virtual reality experiences. They express interest in exploring how to translate physical curation into virtual spaces and vice versa. The speaker engages in conversation with participants who share their experiences with hybrid exhibitions. Thanks, Craig. Hi, Mr. Craig. Welcome. Yeah. No. So, welcome, everybody, to week four. Yeah. So, what I was going to say before was it's funny that we are – like, the scheduled discussion is about hybrid modalities because last night I actually went to this talk by this curator, Cece Moss, who wrote this book that I'm going to post in the chat here called Expanded Internet Art. And she's a curator. She's based in L.A. And she wrote this book, I think, as part of her Ph.D., like her dissertation. And it's about this idea of – or partially about this idea of curating for both physical and virtual spaces at the same time. So it was, like, the perfect timing that I was going to be attending this talk and then, you know, having this discussion today. I was able to talk to her a little bit about it and, like, her curation style because she is the head curator at the Mandeville Art Center in UC San Diego, maybe. But she – like, her approach to curating is one where she knows that a lot of the work will be viewed online and a lot of the work will have to have a virtual element to it, even if the work itself is not conventionally virtual or digital. So we had some, like, good conversation around that and, like, her approach to curating was just super interesting. But for this week, I wanted to, like, talk about examples of people doing both working in, you know, physical spaces and virtual spaces. And I think that after this conversation with her last night, I'm particularly interested in, you know, how do we build, like, A, a physical space, like, showing – a physical showing that then can translate into a digital space, but B, we're doing the opposite here, right, with New York City. So how do we build this virtual space that then, like, what sort of application does it have in the physical world, if that makes sense? So I'm just going to share my screen real quick because I wanted to show you this, which is – does everyone see that? Okay, cool. Sweet. So this is a gallery that she ran from, I think, 2017 to – in L.A. that was, like – it was in a box truck, so, like, the box truck you see there. So it was a mobile gallery, and it was, like, a – you know, what would be considered, like, an off-site gallery, right? So it's – you know, she no longer runs it, but what she has is she has this really interesting virtual archive of all of the exhibitions that she put on within this off-site space. And I just thought that this was really, really relevant because, you know, the – and I'm trying to see if there's a better picture of the actual, like, truck itself that she was curating out of. You can kind of see it there in that photo. Yeah, you can see it here. So all the exhibitions took place inside this box truck. But what I thought was super interesting was that, you know, going to see a show in a box truck in, like, the parking lot of, you know, somewhere in L.A. is a very physical experience. It's a very, like, you know – like, that's something that I would enjoy the hell out of, just, like, physically being there. But she kind of took this, like, what I would just conventionally think of as a, you know, extremely physical way to view art and has kind of turned it into this – like, she also is kind of very aware of the fact that a lot of it will be viewed through a digital lens and then kind of, like, taking ownership of that. And I think that this archive is really wonderful because a lot of these sort of practices, like these curatorial practices, you know, end up – like, they're so ephemeral that they just – they end up, like, not having documentation or archival material and going away. And I thought that what she was doing here with this website was incredible, that she had such a, like, robust space that it was all on. And it was cool because that kind of also brought up another interest of mine, like, which was off-site projects. So, in America, you know, they exist all over the place. But in America, especially, like, right before the pandemic, there was this moment where there was all these spaces being created in very unconventional, like, towns or locations. There's one called Freddy, which was run by an artist called Joshua Abloh, which took place in the middle of nowhere in New York in this old church building where he would, like, curate shows. And then because it was so rural, almost nobody would actually go see them, but they would be posted online. There's another famous one called Final Hot Desert, which took place in Utah, in the Utah desert mostly, although they've kind of done a lot of different things. Like, they did some stuff in London eventually. And there's one in Baltimore that I'm forgetting the name of that, like, all took place on a chain-link fence. So, all of the art was curated on a chain-link fence. And while these were – you know, part of it was the fact that they were in these unconventional locations, and especially a lot of them took place in kind of, like, rural locations, they were considering how these things would look online, because they knew that people wouldn't necessarily have access to, you know, XYZ space, so that they would only be viewing it online. So, with all of that, just to say that hybrid modalities happen in two ways, right? Like, they happen in this sort of, you know, translating the physical into the virtual. Like, you know, the virtual gives you this opportunity to go into, like, you know, middle of nowhere, like America, put on a show, and then have people all over the world see it. And then it also, you know, maybe more for our benefit, gives us the opportunity to build something virtually, and then maybe, you know, take it physically and do it kind of in reverse. So, that's kind of my introductory spiel to this week's discussion. This is something, you know, that I'm, like, super interested in, is just this idea of both how do you translate, you know, physical curation into virtual spaces, and how do you translate virtual curation into physical spaces, which I think is actually a much harder discussion. So, I'm curious if anybody has experience with this, or has, like, examples of kind of similar things that they wanted to share, or any kind of initial thoughts on this idea of showing between the virtual and physical. And also, you know, just to check in that everything is, like, clear, you know, that the prompt, so to speak, is, like, is clear. Cool. Actually, Berto, I wanted to ask if you were – if you knew GAS Gallery or CCMOS at all, just because you're from L.A. What's that? Did you – I was curious if you knew about GAS, the gallery, or… Yeah, I heard of it. I just never really caught it, because around that time I'd bounce in and out of L.A. because I didn't live there. I'll put in the chat, there's one that I – an exhibition I saw in 2021 in Munich. They had a physical exhibition. Then I didn't see the digital exhibition, but the physical exhibition was really good. I think they just kind of recreated the space in a virtual world, so I don't – I didn't see it, so I can't really comment on it, but the physical aspect of it was really good and compelling. Yeah, this looks incredible. Where was this? Um, I don't know. Like, I was walking around some of the bigger, like, museums and stuff. I found some typography that looked absolutely fucking amazing. So I was like, let's pop in here, and just found it by accident. I can't remember the exact name. Let me see. It says it's, like, Galerie de Kuestler. Yeah, yeah. It's a gallery – artist-run gallery, yeah. I'll put the name in the chat. Yeah, this is super interesting, because it's also interesting to look at these right now and to think about, like, a gallery's website as an archive, and sometimes, you know, sometimes shows will just – like, spaces will just kind of be posting documentation afterwards as, like, archival or as documentation, and not sort of taking full advantage of the virtual space, so to speak, if you know what I mean. And I think that this is, like – this looks pretty interesting, because it seems like they are taking advantage of that kind of virtual space, which is cool. Has anyone else experienced any sort of, like, hybrid exhibitions in person? Yeah. Oh, sorry. No, go ahead. I had pulled up one. I'll put it in the chat as well, from the – in talking about archives, you know, the Fabric Workshop and Museum in Philadelphia. I'm going to put them in the chat. They've got a really good archive system going on as well. But this was – I think I was, like, a little bit off of what, like – I think you were talking about, like, more, like, archiving stuff, but this is, like, an exhibit that I saw there, I think in 2019, maybe 2020, where they – he made, like, a Jacobi's Satterwhite Room for Living. He made, like – they made, like, a 3D-rendered landscape, or, like, a bunch of objects that you could move through, but part of the exhibit was VR. Like, there was a pair of VR glasses. So you'd put on these VR goggles and kind of, like, navigate this space that I think I'm trying to find, but I think I remember reading that he – they'd coded it so that it was just, like, endlessly, like, make it building itself with the characters that they designed. But the cool thing about the exhibit was that they'd also, like, made sculptures and 3D models of all of the individual models in the VR experience. So you'd take off the VR goggles and then you'd see the individual actually-built sculptures in front of you as well. I thought that was really crazy and interesting. And, like, yeah, you know, I mean – and the archive's okay, but, like, you can't really – honestly, you can't really see any of the images of it, actually, now that I'm looking at it. I'm wondering if there's a way to see any more. I'm surprised that the Fabric Museum put this on, because they usually – I don't know if they're, like – they're usually putting on some stinkers. Yeah, no, it's usually, like – it's usually, like, goofy community theater-type stuff. It was definitely, like, the – there was one other sculpture exhibit that I saw there that I really liked. But, yeah, for the most part, it's usually, like – it's usually, like, goofball stuff, goofball hours. And they're, like, trying to find something else of Jacobi Satterwhite. Because I bet on their website they probably have better documentation of the They recently gave a talk at my school. I think that their work is, like, really, like, super relevant for what we're doing as well. I think they did something at Pioneer Works, but I'm not – I'm not sure. Yeah, they've done so much stuff. It's kind of insane. Wow. I am curious, like, has anyone had this experience of museums using AR or VR to try to, like, sculpt things or to try to add things in a space and it's just, like, not working? Because I've had, like, the opposite experience with, like, VR sometimes where, like, especially around the time of Pokemon Go, there was such an explosion in this interest in creating, like, you know, a gamified museum experience through AR and a lot of it was, yeah, just kind of, like, crap. And so I'm curious if there's also, like, bad examples out there because I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but I do know that I've, like, experienced that where you're, like, trying to move around a room or something and it just doesn't work. They had, like, that, like, really, like, commercial kind of, like, trippy math art thing, Wonder Spaces, that was moving through the States for a while. They had, like, a VR kind of experience in there where everyone would sit at a table and there was tons of VR glasses and you'd put on the VR glasses and then the empty table would have, like, all of this, like, food and stuff on it. And I think the idea, it was cool, but just, like, many of the glasses just weren't, many of the goggles just weren't working. So, like, a lot of people, you just have to get lucky to even see the exhibit. Just, like, busted VR goggles on the table. Well, it's just, like, they were, like, moving, it was just so, like, commercial with such, like, an Instagram kind of photo opportunity more than anything else that everyone was just being really reckless with, like, all of the stuff in there. So everything was just kind of banged up, like, moving, like, 300 people through there a day. Well, I think you just also kind of brought something up that's important in this conversation, which is the Instagramability, you know, of museum spaces now, which I think we've kind of, like, talked about a little bit before. But, you know, I think a lot of museums and a lot of curators, like, in more mainstream places or kind of, like, bigger institutions, we're looking to get people in the door. Often, you know, instead of creating an experience that can happen virtually or, like, spending time to create virtual elements to an exhibition, just, like, make a pretty wall to, you know, take your Instagram photo in front of and we'll have, like, a hashtag in front of. In Boston at the MFA, at the Museum of Fine Arts, there's a pretty well-known, like, neon text sculpture as you walk in the door to the Contemporary Art Wing. And it became, like, a photo op to the point where the museum started embracing it and there was, like, you know, ropes at one point that you could, like, go behind to, like, take the photo and things like that. And I always thought that that was really, like, it's, I mean, I don't want to, like, dismiss it too much because it's, like, you know, like, ultimately, if this thing brings you joy and brings you to a museum, okay. But, yeah, but it's, like, it's very easy to criticize it. But I'm also, like, you know, maybe there is, maybe there is something here that I'm missing and I don't want to be, like, too dismissive of it quickly. I just think, personally, it's a lazy way to add a virtual element into a physical space. But I'm curious, yeah, what, Lucila, it looked like you were about to say something. Yeah, I agree. And that's a huge point. Coming from design, I see also my students pretty much into the idea of Instagrammable corners of spaces, any kind of space, and not only museums, but you build a hospital and then you want to make a wall Instagrammable, I mean, up to that point. And I agree with what you said. So, it's one side, all right, people will enjoy it, sort of. On the other side, it doesn't make sense. And so, I'm mostly on the side of it doesn't make sense because there are a lot of spaces that actually work and they are as beautiful, like, beautiful enough to invite people to take pictures of them and to forward them and share them in social medias. And that's what works for me. I understand that, of course, if you have a museum and you understand that a part of the garden or a part of the wall works perfectly for pictures and people start taking pictures, you want to enhance it somehow. So, right, it's good to take the opportunities that the context gives you. On the other hand, yes, if it doesn't work spatially and function-wise for me, it's not a good project at all. And Yano, go ahead. I was just going to say, I think that there's something I can't figure out how I feel about a piece of work that's just intended, like, with the entire intention of being photographed as well. Like you were saying, there's plenty of spaces that are just beautiful and you would just want to take a photograph of them or be photographed in that space. And then it's interesting when you shift it to be very mostly about that one moment there of taking the picture. I don't know. I'm trying to place how I feel about it, because I think it is probably good marketing and people need that. But it's, yeah, I don't know. It seems schemey to me, but I'm suspicious generally. Well, I guess the question then becomes, as everyone here makes work, even though a lot of our work is digital, how do you feel about your work being photographed and Instagrammed? Like, actually, a few years ago, I went to the Institute of Contemporary Art in Boston, and a different museum, and there was a photographer, Liz Deschenes, who's a really interesting conceptual photographer, and she encouraged selfies with the work, even though the works weren't that selfieable, to be honest with you. But she encouraged it and collaged it together on Instagram, and it became this interesting, interactive archive after the fact. I'm sure you can still find it on Instagram. But yeah, just to say that, how do you feel about, if you make physical work, about it being photographed to then show up on social media, essentially? Or actually, not to call anyone out, but I was curious, like Skander, I know you do a lot of music and performing, if I'm not mistaken. That's kind of a different relationship, and I was kind of curious about that. Yeah, I mean, personally, each time I see someone having a video or picture of my show, I'm happy, because I think people start filming or recording something, means that they want to remember, or it's something that has left, maybe, like a mark in their memory, so they want to have this memory somewhere on their phone. So, in my opinion, when they do that with my work, I'm happy. But I think it's very different than some very specific Instagrammable corners, because these corners are super generic, and they lose, furthermore, even though, as said, Lucilia, that it doesn't make any sense. I think these corners lose, they don't, I mean, from a space, it makes the space lose its own soul, because all these corners look like the same. It's like huge, vegetal walls with neon writing somewhere, or walls with full, specific tones, or something, some stuff like that. And if each space has this kind of same thing, it's not recognizable anymore. So you lose, even the fact, the essence of the specificity of what makes the space your own space. And also, in the context of art spaces, it brings away the focus from the art. I remember visiting the Mokko Museum in Amsterdam a few months ago, and I heard nice things about the one in Barcelona, and so in other cities, maybe it works differently. But that specifically is only designed and curated for taking pictures. And there are the immersive rooms on the bottom of the, like in the ground floor, and people were just there taking videos and pictures and so on, which is, I mean, not wrong per se, but it means that you're not communicating the value of an artwork, rather you're just giving a nice scenario, a nice scenography for pictures. And if I think about it, in Varese, here in Italy, we have a wonderful museum, which is called Villa Panza, and there are wonderful works by Dan Flavin. So these wonderfully immersive rooms with different colors and neons and the space changes, but there, for the spatial conditions and also the curation conditions, so you give space to the artwork, you don't concentrate like tons of artworks in a small space, you really feel the work instead, and so you don't see people, tons of people taking pictures and videos, rather you see people being immersed in the artwork, and then, okay, taking a couple of pictures for sure, and sharing them. I did it too, but that's a different weight it has. Yeah, I think that when something is like framed as being very specifically for you to photograph yourself in it, it changes, like, it takes away the part of experiencing art where you build a relationship with the work and the piece, the relationship seems predetermined at that point. And yeah, I don't think it's like a bad thing, it's just a different kind of experience, I guess. The mic isn't working, yeah, or I can't hear, sorry. I mean, sometimes if you drop out and come back in again, it sometimes works. What about now? Cool. I was about to say that I work a lot with performances and concerts. Something happened, something funny happened, sometimes that is, at the next day of the concert, everyone posts the same story, it's like the same 15 seconds, it's just like, because it was just one moment of the concert that everyone was taking a picture because everyone was shocked, or whatever. I think there's something also with the 15 seconds, one minute thing that Instagram, that you need the attention, right? And sometimes with performances, or concerts, or exhibitions that are like with a slower rhythm, or I have a different pace that doesn't work with Instagram, it's kind of, I don't know, I think it's kind of tricky. But yeah, now I'm working with a museum doing a performance, and it was like three different concerts. And the last performance was very slow, and very kind of awkward, I will say. And something really interesting happened was like the edition of the material, it was the pictures, or the videos that were taken, didn't work for social media. And it had a really bad reaction, like everyone was like, why people give money to this artist to do this bullshit, and it's like not what you will see in the museum, in the actual museum. So yeah, it's something to pay attention. I think there's an odd relationship that occurs when you present work within physical format, and then you do something to try and capture it and present it in a 3D format, such as a photograph, or even moving and reading. There's a destructive element. So I used to work in, you know, creating 3D objects that I've interviewed many people who have, and the higher up they got, the more and more controlling they were about who could take photographs, how they were going to be published, which ones you could use, because there's this kind of feeling that actually it could run away from you if you weren't careful. This kind of perception of your work through other people's eyes, that it isn't what you intended, it wasn't what you meant it to be. And I think that people become careful of that relationship or mindful that they can really begin to alter how people see your work. And I think there's possibly something that you could play with, that could be much more playful when you're thinking about a hybrid reality or hybrid sort of this modality of switching between the other one. What can we do to actually play with that idea? I once saw an exhibition that was from Fulham Art Festival, which is an international photography festival. And in one part of the festival, which is around the city, there was this machine taking photographs. I can't remember if you manually did something, it took a photo of your face, but actually printed that out somewhere else in another building and just dropped it on the floor. And I thought that was a really clever thing to do, connecting these two disparate buildings. But I've always thought, I've been thinking for a long time, how can you perhaps do that in the virtual space and physical space? Can you do something that occurs here and spit it out in a different format somewhere else? Maybe it becomes a 2D format, but it's intentional and appropriate. But I did want to kind of piggyback on what Danny was saying, that there's this book called Live Dead. And it's about the Grateful Dead. But more specifically, it's about how the Grateful Dead and Deadheads, Deadhead culture, have transformed our ideas of liveness, especially as it relates to performance. Because the Grateful Dead had this community that was first bootlegging. They were recording all these concerts and reselling them. But then, more importantly, for our purposes, the Grateful Dead, Deadheads were actually one of the first early online forums. Some of the earliest internet forums were for Deadheads. If you ever look up the Whole Earth Electronic Link, it's called The Well. It was a very, very early internet forum that started in the 80s. And it was primarily used by Deadheads to share show recordings or to figure out where to go, where the lot would be at the next show or whatever, things like that. So in charting the Grateful Dead and how their ideas of the Grateful Dead live and archiving live shows have changed throughout generations, it shows how our idea of what this live performance experience is has changed. I saw a talk with the author not super long ago, and it's just a super interesting concept. Even if you don't like the Grateful Dead, there's something interesting there because Deadheads were so involved in archiving these experiences that were happening right in front of them. And that's infiltrated so much of culture, especially performance. And now I would also say the art world, where I see this in New York more than anywhere else. But when there's an opening, I'm thinking about at No Gallery or at Blade Study or something like that, there's always, always, always people posting the crowds outside the gallery, right? Or O'Flaherty's had a big opening that was super crowded a while ago, and everyone was posting in the crowd. People couldn't even get into the show. And it's interesting to kind of have this correlation to, there's this aspect of having an opening now that is kind of performance, and also translating that into social media clout, essentially. That becomes important to the artwork. I'm curious to know if that sort of thing, if the kind of liveness of the opening translates, is part of the art scenes wherever you all are, or if that's something you've kind of experienced. Because also, I'm also not like, look at these fools, posting photos of, I've totally done that. I'm 100% guilty of that. I've contributed to that. I've been at openings where I'm like, look, I'm here. I say this with no disrespect to that concept. I wanted to say something about Danny's thing, just really quick. It's nonsense and kind of a tangent, but when you mentioned that it seems like everyone's posting kind of the same 15 seconds of content. I've started doing this thing at concerts, where when the song that we all like comes on, everyone's iPhones go up into the air, and I'll record someone's iPhone recording. And now at a couple of concerts, it's started to become something that I'm able to get a trail of someone else who's doing the same thing that I'm doing in front of me, all the way down a little ways. I think the most I've gotten is four, but it's pretty interesting. We all just want this one moment and we can literally make fun of each other and do it together. It's kind of fun. No, I was just thinking about the Venice Biennale in 2016, and performance artist Anna Emhoff, which was not a digital space, or she didn't intend it to be a digital space, but it became this huge Instagram sensation. I know one of the performers, so I know the rate itself, so it's actually becoming a problem because people were crossing boundaries and getting too close. And obviously the performance itself is playing with power and domination to some degree. And involuntarily, the viewers started to participate in that by crossing boundaries and getting too close. I thought that was quite an interesting example of something that is just a performance set in a physical space, but then it has this completely other, unintended life, maybe online. But then on the other hand, I think there is something about her work which maybe invites the digital, even though it isn't based in a digital place, it speaks to that place or corresponds to that to some degree. So I think it's also not completely accidental that that's happened, but I thought it was quite interesting. And that's also just a fantastic example, because I feel like her work is so Instagrammable in some way, even though that's not at all the intention. I love her work, but I only know it through these digital interventions, even though it is a purely physical practice. Yeah, that's a really great example, I think. I'm also, in this conversation, thinking about my own experiences creating space with New Art City and other sort of, like, right now I'm working on another sort of exhibition space that's more of a twine game. But I'm also thinking about, like, creating space with New Art City and other exhibition space that's more of a twine game. And the fact that there's kind of a freedom away from that sort of Instagrammable documentation in the virtual space, I'm kind of being hyperbolic here, but it feels like there is a sort of, like, the virtual, like, curating an exhibition in a virtual space almost can give you more, like, you can allow viewers to be almost more present, because there's not that sort of expectation of, you know, I'm here with XYZ person, and I'm taking a picture, and I'm showing it on, I think that there's, like, you know, we can totally problematize that, because there's, like, definitely a lot of things that aren't true about that statement. But just in this conversation, that's what's coming up for me, that there is this, like, almost freedom away from that, like, Instagrammability when showing work purely virtual. But yeah, how do you all feel about that? Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I'm, it's, I think there's, like, a lot of, specifically in New York City, it actually does feel very, like, private. It feels very, like, like, in my exclusive little hideaway. Yeah, it's one of the things I've really been enjoying about it, and I've actually been asking myself the question, like, do I build this for me in a way that makes sense for me, that in a way that I, or do I make this sort of for, with an eye for, you know, like, what's going on in my life? And I think that's a really good question. I think that's a really good question. Or do I make this sort of for, with an eye for whoever might come in and explore this space? And I guess I've never, you know, I've never been, I've never curated a show, and I've never, so I'm not sure, from the curator's perspective, like, how much, how, what, how, how they weigh sort of, maybe someone who has more experience, how they weigh sort of curating something for, for, like, the consumption of the people who are going to experience the art versus curating. But yeah, yeah, just to, just, I agree with you. I agree with you, Basil. It does feel really private and really a nice, private, cool, experimental room. And then I'm, but then I'm also, like, so how, how experimental do I get? Do I make this, like, an accessible sort of exhibition space? Do I just, like, go all in with what? Yeah, these are just some questions I've been asking Alexa. Totally, Alexa. No, I, I think we're, we're on a similar wavelength with this. I, something I've been asking myself a lot, like, I've got so many ideas jumping around, I keep on putting things together and taking them apart in there. Because one thing I'm kind of thinking about is, it's, like, this space is, like, something about it is, like, begging me to be, like, vulnerable, like, something about it wants, like, something about this space, like, wants, like, I'm wanting to be, like, really, really vulnerable in this space and really, like, like, the art that I'm, the little narrative that I'm concocting is, like, bordering on, like, more personal than I'm comfortable with at times. So I totally get that. And I, like, for me personally, I'm, like, thinking that at least this week, I'm going to just try and lean in, actually, and then just, like, make something super mushy about myself or for myself in there and see what, see what ends up happening. But I get that too. Yeah, I have a similar, I was thinking along similar lines as well, that I had abandoned, abandoned the idea for the space I had initially. And then last week, over the weekend, was kind of coming up with completely different ideas, make something a bit different. And it was also suddenly becoming this space, which was started becoming really intimate and personal. And it's a strange way to think about it, because I guess you're creating it in an environment. I mean, at least I'm, if I'm working on it, I'm at home. So it's like, kind of in your personal space. And then you're thinking about how that can, you know, you don't need to leave the house for doing that. So kind of lends itself to some degree for not becoming something very intimate, which is also interesting, I think. But then it's also interesting to think about, like, how are the people, you know, going to experience that space and how weird it can be. So yeah, that's kind of the thinking about that. Well, I feel like there's like, something like lonely about this space, when you're like, working on it yourself, that kind of like draws this kind of like, it's just me floating through space. Like, I guess it's just like, I guess I can reflect, you know. And then yeah, that then it's like, it is like you try and consider what, or I try and consider what like a viewer navigating the space would be feeling like. And like, probably it starts because like, you know, there's always the fog, and there's always a great expanse, right? So it's, it's probably like a similar feeling out the gate for any viewer too. So it is like, it feels like telling a secret. Most of our city galleries have been, they all feel kind of, I don't know if it's just the look and the style of the space itself, but it always feels a little, a little melancholy. Like it always feels a little, I don't know, I think it's the graphic style and the nature of the space. But I love it. I like feeling something whenever I open up a gallery, whatever the gallery ends up looking like. But I agree with you, they all kind of have this, this sort of feeling of melancholy, which is really nice. It's really like emotionally effective, at least for me. Few days ago, I was navigating through some New York City spaces, and I found the one, maybe you know it. But the storytelling within it is very interesting, because you don't have that freedom of moving. I mean, you have some of it, but not that much. But I don't know how he did it, because you just move. I mean, the, your point of view just moves without you deciding that, where you, where it should go. Very weird. And I just shared it now in the, in the chat. And so, yeah, and the storytelling is very interesting. The space is very, there is plenty of surrealism elements in it. And it is actually a space that leads you to another space that is completely different, that leads you to another space that is also different. And it's like a long story. And it's super interesting. I really had so much fun. And I had so much fun navigating through it, even though I didn't really navigate myself. This experience, like, is really, like, it's so disorienting. Like, I feel like I'm actually, like, like the lack of control in that space. Like, I actually feel like I'm gonna get sick in a good way. I had actually, like, went through this one. I found this one on my own as well. I thought it was really cool. I guess he knows how to code or something. So he was able to, like, code in how the, how you move through it. It's also, I don't think it's related. I haven't read the book, but there's a book called I Am a Strange Loop as well. I Am a Strange Loop is a 2007 book by Douglas Hofstadter examining in depth the concept of a strange loop to explain the sense of I. I feel like it must be related. It's too much of a. Yeah, I mean, even the theme of kind of, like, the narrative that the guy, the artist uses is kind of, like, you know, describing an identity. This is so interesting, the idea of removing the viewer's, like, choice. No choice in how you experience this one. And it makes, it also makes a lot of sense as if he explores the sense of I. And even one of the spaces which is called Museum, you expect that you will find, like, some artworks or something, but no. You just find big screens with thoughts about himself, about life, about what, him, actually. So it's very funny. It's very unexpected. And, yeah, I don't know. I really had a lot of fun. Oh, you do get to a point where you can kind of navigate if you fall, if you fall deep enough. I also really love the sky, the sky he's got going around, that they've got going around, around, around. Yeah, I love these ones that use, like, really huge 3D models that you kind of float through. Those are really cool. I wonder if, I think you can set it so you're actually at ground level, but you can set your, the point at which you arrive somewhere else. So I wonder if that was, if there wasn't any programming done at all, but it was set so you're basically falling. That might be how it's been done. I suspect that's the case, but I might have a look into that. So does it imply that the point of view moves in a straight line? No, well, it's as if you're adding some sense of gravity within your space. So if you imagine the ground's here and you're spawned here, you're falling down. So you're falling in a straight line until you get to a point, I think, where you hit the ground, and then you can probably move around. Probably. I'm not sure. I'll have a closer look and see what I can work out. Yeah, check the one called Museum, because it does the opposite. It goes from the ground to the top, and it follows, I think, kind of circularly motion following the stairs. So it's very weird, very, very funny to see it. Yeah, I've not seen that before. That's really good. I think that this space in particular also brings up something that I've been thinking about, like, that I think about within my own work sometimes, where it's like, you know, all of us here are sort of media artists to some degree, and maybe working on a screen, but how do you bring physicality into that space, you know, in terms of, like, in this particular experience, I feel, like I said, like, I feel like I'm falling, and I feel almost like emotion sickness or something, but that ties me into this world, right? It ties into the, sorry, I just got a really weird text as I was speaking. Someone I know had, like, surgery this morning. I don't know. Yeah. It looks like everything is okay, but I just saw surgery and was like, oh, shit, that's not good. But anyways, so yeah, this sort of, this sense of falling, like, ties me into this world, and it makes, like, my physical body part of the space, if you know what I mean. So I think, like, within a conversation about, like, physicality and virtuality, that's also something to kind of consider of, like, you know, how do you make somebody feel like they're in this space, or how do you just connect to different, like, senses so that, you know, just because this is on a screen, like, doesn't mean that it can't become a sensorial experience. And that's something that I've been, like, sort of fighting with in my own work, trying to, like, make sure that, you know, the things that I'm making have that sort of, like, sensation to it. But yeah, I don't know if that's something that you've kind of considered, like, within your space or just, like, within your practice in general. Um, this is me. Oh, sorry. No, go ahead. Yeah, sorry. No, you go. I don't want to quickly say, like, what you do up. Like, I did kind of explore that, not in, like, what I'm doing now, but in the past, I did explore, like, making VR work and using, like, physical, like, cushions so that people could feel a sensation, like, in the real world, and then also, like, be transported in the virtual world. Because when I did, like, make my VR work at the time, and I was using, like, the VR headset, I felt really sick. Like, I did have motion sickness. I thought, okay, how can I combine another, like, form of sensing to distract from that when we're, like, interacting with the work? That's all I wanted to say. So that's just, like, an example of trying to, you know, yeah. Did you find any good sort of, like, counteractions to it or sort of, like, ways to, yeah, like, any kind of, like, good ways to anchor people? Well, when I tested it out, like, I was in my last year of uni. So, like, I had a friend called Emma who, like, was able to, like, she found it kind of weird that she was able to hold a cushion and have, like, my mom's face painted on it, and then at the same time you'd see my mom's face in the space. So also that visual connection and then knowing it kind of worked in a way so that you wouldn't feel as dizzy because it was, is it the Oculus? I can't remember what one it was, but it's, like, really heavy. So it was able to, like, count out the weight. It was kind of, like, balancing it out, if that makes sense. Yeah. Also, I just wanted to say another thing. A place, or a space that I think that does, it's, like, have you guys heard of the gumbox thing? No? Okay, you know, like, the red carpet, like, a bunch of celebrities on it. Okay, yeah, like, and there's this guy who, like, gets the celebrities ready to, like, kind of make a performance with, like, their clothing, and I thought that's really good, like, how it's in slow motion. So I have a couple of seconds to, like, get prepared, and then, like, fans ask to, like, watch it on, like, Instagram and stuff. I just think it's a good example of the physical and then the virtual, but if on Instagram or any other space, you get to view it, so it's just, yeah, so that's, yeah. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about on those, and that's another kind of, like, interesting live experience, too, right, where, like, when you're watching the Oscars or, like, the Super Bowl or whatever, like, there's, like, you're getting, like, you're not just getting the sort of, like, official media feed of, like, the TV, but you're also getting the, like, unofficial, right, of, like, a celebrity on the red carpet or, you know, things like that, which is, like, I think, like, kind of goes into, like, you know, like, thinking about it in the art world, it's, like, you know, you have the opening, but the opening is not just, like, the press pack or the kind of, like, official statements or, like, the talks, it's everything else now, you know, it's, like, a multimedia experience, yeah. Also, I really like this idea of, like, holding on to something just in general while doing VR because I still get, like, super dizzy in VR, which I love, I mean, it's, like, you know, like, almost like a drug experience sometimes, you know, you just, like, come out and you're, like, whoa, but I think, like, having that anchor is interesting, and I'm, like, I'm curious, like, how we could incorporate that into, like, New Art City, like, you know, be interesting to, like, have sort of, like, did anyone play Webkinz as a kid? Or, I don't, for those who don't know what Webkinz is, it was, like, you'd buy a stuffed animal, and then you'd, like, have a code that you'd put, it was, like, Neopets or something, it was, like, you had a code that you would, like, put online, so you'd, like, register that animal into this virtual space, so, and then you could, like, play games with your animal, like, you were in this virtual world, but you had, like, a physical stuffed animal, and I wonder if there's, like, a more refined way to do that, because that's, like, yeah, that's just the first thing that kind of comes to my mind, like, thinking about incorporating some element of, like, you know, a physical object for your virtual space, but there's, like, a million, I think that there's, like, there was, like, a million versions of, like, Webkinz or whatever, there was just, like, what was popular when I was, like, growing up, also a hybrid modality. When I was a kid, I remember there was something similar related, that this reconnects to the first subject of the topic of today, so the two mixed realities, but there was this platform in which you could sort of play with Barbies or cartoon ladies and boys, something like that, I don't exactly remember how it was, but I think it was a, you know, a world, not a 3D, a 2D world, you could do things, and I remember you could get the membership by buying physical MP3 in the shape of this Barbie, and so in Italy, they were pretty rare, so once I found one, I was so happy, you know, oh, finally, I can be a member, but you couldn't pay just the fee on the website, you must find the physical item, and that was weird, but I've never thought about it back, so nice using. I just remember by you saying this, that a friend of mine made an album that you can only listen to it if you go to some streets in the city, so you are around, and you have an app, and you can then listen around that space. That's super cool. That is, that's really awesome, like imagine you're like on a date, and someone just whips out this album, you know what I mean, that's like crazy, that would be so cool. Yeah, so you can, it's like every week they do a walk into this street, it's really cool. That's amazing. On which app he re-released his music? I should text him to see what is it. Yeah, because it's funny, really funny format. I was going to say, I couldn't possibly remember the artists, there were many, it was like one of those spring break shows at New York University, one of my friends was helping to curate, but several artists did installation art, and wall art, and then they had created Instagram filters, so it wasn't for you to take selfies, but it's like when you would hold your phone up to the art, these little 3D creatures that they had rendered would like appear to like go alongside the art, that was pretty cool, and they had made like little dolls of them as well, which was pretty neat. I think we just need to... Again, sorry, about these two hybrid dimensions, I just remembered about, or what Danny said, about museums of, like, which is just a, it's called museum, it's actually not, it's just an expression, but it's like, you know, it's like, you know, of, like, which is just a, it's called museum, it's actually not, it's just an experience, designed by, I was trying to look for the name, I don't remember her name, but a magician who works with the MIT Media Lab, and, well, also for them, but she has her own activity as a professional magician, and she designed this very interesting experience in a park in the USA, I don't exactly remember where, maybe Chicago, I don't remember, and you would, through an app, you would go to a specific place, to this park, and you would follow instructions, and do things, and experience the space, the physical space, in a specific way suggested, let's say, by her voice, and I've never tried it, because you should go there in person to do it, as your friends, but it's a very interesting example, too, because you don't see the museum, you don't see anything, it's just an experience to be done there, but through a technological tool. I'll look for the name, and type it in the chat, and we'll take a look. Also, Basile, when you talked about this little creature appearing through some Instagram filters, I thought about an artist called Ines Alfa, which calls herself, like, a 3D makeup artist, and I discovered her, because she was doing visuals for an electronic music producer, and she worked for a lot of brands, and she also does filters on Snapchat, and it's filters that is kind of digital makeup, and it's very, also abstract things that you can add on your face, and it's, I think her work is really funny. If you have any, like, link to where I could find her, I mean, honestly, if she's one of the people who makes good makeup on Instagram, I'm sure I maybe have stumbled upon one of her filters by mistake, I love playing with Instagram filters. Yeah, I just shared the, sorry, I just shared the link on the chat. Yeah, I just want to say, when AR and VR came up earlier in the conversation, Instagram was actually one of the first things I thought of, and just the ways that creators can, you can learn an AR program and start uploading your own filters, and it, and there's all kinds of cool makeup effects and cool masks, and there's a bunch of 3D artists I follow who regularly create new filters and put them up as a way to have people interact with their work more, so they will post their renders and, but then also adjacent to, like, a render or piece that they post, they'll also allow access to a filter that they've made that correlates to the render or to their new piece that they've uploaded, and I think that that's really cool, and a cool way to sort of create more interactivity between their followers and their work, so it goes beyond more than just a like, which does feel kind of static in a way, but I think that's so cool. I love this Ines also, this is so cool. I'm perusing her site, and I am upset. I would also say this is an example of a good artist's site. That was my first thought. How do we all feel about a quick five, ten-minute break? Does that sound okay? Cool. Take a quick break, come back. Yeah, come back at like at 15 past. Sound good? I have to go to work, unfortunately. I really need some money, so I'm going to go into the restaurant, so everyone have a great rest of the session. I will see you on Thursday. Matthew, are you going? Yes, I think I'm also leaving. I think this is a good moment to go. I'll see you on Thursday, then. I'll be there, which will then critten away. It's time to go. I'll see you on Thursday, then. I'll be there, which will then critten away. It's time to go. I'll be there, which will then critten away. Yes, thank you. See you soon. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Hello again. Hey, there. Hi, everyone. I'm just waiting for people to arrive, and then I have a little bit of news. It's kind of news. Madira, this is really cool. What is it? Oh, her name is called Madira Pixels. She's a game developer and artist. She made this game to Google Play. I don't know what year it was, but I used it for my dissertation. I'm just really obsessed with all her work. It's a game where you use your face and a little icon and stuff, and then you move about. And you can play it on your phone. It's really good. But she's also done this game called Hair Now, where it's basically don't touch the hair. Madira is retro. What's it called again? It's an arcade. And it's got the thing. Usually, I remember it in the game thing. Like Skee-Ball or Pinball? Isn't that an actual? You know when, what's that game? What's it called? Street Fighter. It would be on there, like in eight years. Yeah. Yeah. But recently, she was able to have that game, Hair Now, whatever it is, shown on that. And it was just really cool because then you're in a physical space playing it instead of on your laptop and on your phone. So she's just a good example. And she's got an amazing website. She's just really nice. Yeah. Yeah, this rules. I'm going to look at her stuff closer after this. Allie. Dan, did you want to announce the news? Yeah, I'm just in the middle of a chat with Don. So I asked about the script editor, and they say they're very reluctant for people to use it. What does he say? Basically, it's causing them issues. There's a link to the memory space, the strange loop space. And he said, yeah, that's been scripted. And they had told the artist that they were on their own with that. So they don't provide any assistance whatsoever. So if you want to have a go, we need to ask permissions to get access to the script editor. And then you are completely on your own. However, it has just told me that they are working on a 3D tour. It's a waypoint. So you have waypoints within the space, and you can actually force a transition, a kind of tour through that space based on these waypoints. And if you go to the reverse target, I'll just copy that link. I'm just in between spaces at the minute, because I'm on a chat. If anybody wants to go and have a look, if you have a look at the options when you enter the space, one of them says it's a 3D tour. It's a test at the minute, so it's not actually been rolled out. But he said it's coming very soon. Whether it's going to be out in time for you guys to play around with, I'm not sure. I just thought I'd let you know. Can you see the – I'm just going through it. So when you've got the guestbook screenshot catalog, and then it says start 3D tour, if you click on that, you can enter the space on a predefined tour. And I think you're taken to certain points, and then you wait, and then you press a key, and then you'll transition to the next space. I'm not actually sure it's quite as cool as the scripted space, but it's pretty similar in concept. Yeah, that's all I wanted to add, Chris. That's really cool because it also totally does change your orientation to this space. It seems like it just – I didn't get a great look at it, but it becomes more cinematic versus like a sort of game experience, like most of them are. What I found a bit disconcerting is that it forces your orientation of where you're looking. So you're transitioning through the space, but it's also making you look in a certain direction. Because what was quite nice about the other – the Strangelink space was that actually you could turn. While you're transitioning through the space, you could just turn and look around, which felt like you were kind of on this forced float through space, but you're actually able to just look around you. So anyway, that's in the making. He can't tell me when it's going to come, but he said it's very soon. Hell, yeah. Yeah, so I wanted to spend the last portion of this session just talking about – I mean, you know, it's open, but I was thinking we could kind of discuss – we've been talking a lot about the physical into the digital or virtual. But, you know, especially with making a Newark City space, do you have – like, is to bring physicality into it, or is that something that's even necessarily important to you? Just I think that it's something interesting to think through. You just brought up a really cool example, right, of, like, them taking the game that was on your phone and then bringing it into, like, an actual arcade, which is, like, a really cool example of kind of, like, doing it in reverse, you know? So I'm curious – yeah, I'm curious to know your thoughts on, you know, if you want to take, like, your specific space in a physical direction, if there's sort of other virtual experiences that you want to bring to the physical or, like, anything like that, but kind of, like, rather than the physical to the virtual, virtual to the physical, if that makes sense. Because also I was thinking on the break, Berto, like, you showed me your space, and in your space there is this, like, sense of physicality and, like, something kind of – like, sort of like that falling sensation. And I know that we were kind of talking a little bit about that. I don't know if that's, like, something that you were thinking through specifically or – Not necessarily physicality. It's more how people perceive it or how they feel about it. And I think that could come across through different ways. So for me it's more how does it make people feel? How do I feel looking at it? And if that comes across as physicality, I think it's more of a subconscious thing than anything else. We were just talking about physicality, and I was looking up a bunch of different artists. There's this one artist, Rodrigo. He made this really cool piece here. So obviously this was, like, during the pandemic, and people couldn't – like, that piece specific gained a little bit more popularity during the pandemic, like the early pandemic, 2020. But it was kind of him reminiscing about, you know, going back to California, being deported, and stuff like that. And he has a little write-up about it. But when I first saw that piece, it really – I don't know, it just – So, okay, that's loud. But I don't know. I just felt something to it. And I have a whole host of other artists here that I'll just drop in the chat. His website is cool. It's really simple and stark. It's, like, very mysterious, almost, the landing page with nothing on it. You have to go click around and look for the information. Okay. And the second one you posted, just the idea of, like, recreating a memory in a virtual space in a time when you couldn't, you know, like, be going to these places is super, super interesting to me. During the pandemic, like the, you know, 2020, my parents, like, splurged on a Peloton, which was so silly. But they got a Peloton bike, you know, like the fancy exercise bikes. And I was living at home at the time, and I would do these, like – I would get on a Peloton and just, like – they had, like, different routes that you could take, like, through France and, like, Switzerland that somebody had recorded. So I'd be, like, on this bike looking at this place and having this, like, weird virtual physical experience that's, like, always kind of stuck with me that this is kind of reminding me of, like, having, like, being – having this physicality of, like, I'm on a bike, but then, like, having this screen be, like, but you're somewhere else and then, you know, actually being in suburban Boston during a pandemic. And I just thought was, like – it just kind of, like, messed with my head in a way that's never really left, you know? Like, I just – I think back about that a lot. And this idea of, like, recreating places within a virtual world is, like, super fascinating to me or, like, drawing from, you know, physical memory. No, I think, you know, what you said is, for me, like, I've always been drawn to kind of work that feels that way, especially digitally, because we see and we love things. And so if something makes you feel that way, I personally have a stronger connection to it versus something that kind of becomes so abstract and you're kind of fighting with yourself to understand, while something that has that physicality kind of roots you to an idea of the real world, no matter where it may be. It becomes, like, a sort of grounding thing, which is interesting. Like, to use virtual spaces, like, almost like a meditation tool or something like that. Tammy, these websites are crazy. The Drawing Garden one is really, really, like, speaking of meditative, like, I feel like it's kind of, like, it's doing something to me. I don't know. It's really crazy. Another emoji one, it makes a little sound. You can also, like, browse the one with free emoji.com. That one is also super smooth. This is also, like, cool because it's, like, referencing sort of earlier internet phenomenon, but doing it better, which is, like, something I'm all about. Like, it's, I remember, like, having, like, your mouse, like, be able to, like, trail, like, early behind trails, but, like, it was always super glitchy or something. And now it's done much better. But, yeah, to ask a question to the group, is anybody incorporating physical elements in their New York City space or, like, experimenting with, like, AR at all or anything like that? And it's kind of, you know, it's hard to do within the space, but it is, like, it is possible. So, yeah, is anyone sort of doing that within their space? Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'm trying to do that. It's just currently, like, my laptop keeps acting up, but hopefully when I'm able to get into this space, I do want to hopefully have, like, yeah, AR. Because I do like working with that. I just like the fact that you can, you know, you can, you know, I do want to hopefully have, like, yeah, AR. Because I do like working with that. I just like the fact that you can have, like, a piece of art in the room with you or wherever you are, you can, like, take with you. I think that's really, like, cool. So, yeah. If you want to share, what specifically are you thinking about doing? Oh, if you, I can share, like, a picture or something. Okay. Is it okay if I share my screen? Yeah. Okay. Can you see that? Yeah, that's an example that I wanted to, like, hopefully, like, when you get into this space, that's one of the things you can interact with. And that's just, like, a mock-up. But right now, it's just that 3D model is in the space, but my aim is to interact with it. So, hopefully, yeah, and we'll just, I don't know where I'm going to place it exactly, but that's just experimental. So, yeah. Okay. That's super cool to have that, like, yeah, the, like, augmented reality aspect to it, I think is, like, super interesting. Because it's, like, have you been in the New York City Discord? Because I know some people have tried, like, have done sort of, like, AR stuff within the space, but it's, yeah, it's just, like, a bit, like, you have to find workarounds, as I'm sure you've, you know, come across. Have you got any spaces in Minecraft? Have you seen anything? Yeah, I wanted to bring up one, but I couldn't, like, find the example. It was not great. It wasn't actually augmented reality. It was, like, QR codes within the space that then, like, bring you into your phone and things like that. But I did think it was, like, interesting to sort of have these interactions between multiple sort of platforms, and it does kind of bring you back into physicality, even though QR codes are, you know, like, a bit played out. But I do think it is even, like, interesting to have spaces that, you know, interact between, like, your laptop and your phone to kind of have that, to sort of have, like, a double, not double experience, but to have multiple things talking to each other at once, if you know what I mean. Yeah, I was also thinking about, I like the idea of maybe bringing it back, of creating a connection to a physical space. I don't really, I haven't used AR in my work yet, but I'm interested to do so. I also was thinking about QR codes, but then I think I've read this book, which is more like an experimental writing poetry collection, which has QR codes, where I think it will actually still work well because it's a physical object and it's a book. It makes you go back to your phone and scan the code. And then you brought to some Wikipedia entries, which is kind of quite random and strange. Also, you're already in the physical and you're holding a physical book and then it brings you to the virtual. But I think that, as you are already in a virtual, to then have a QR code, I think, I don't think would make it work that well. So it would have to be, I think, different. But yeah, I haven't really figured out how I might do that or how it might be interesting to work with that. I guess another way to think about this, too, is like, would you want to show your New York City space in a physical gallery once it's finished? Or have you thought about sort of exhibiting it in physical space? Because I know even the New York City folks have been doing hybrid exhibitions. I think we're in a really cool moment right now of trying to show these sort of spaces in physical space. A, if that's something of interest to you, and B, if that's something you're considering while designing the space. I would absolutely love to. The latest thing, I think you're the one who sent reverse carpet. I know they recently they had a whole in-person sort of gallery opening reception event where they, I wasn't able to make it, but where they did in-person, like an in-person. I wasn't I didn't go, so I'm not sure how it was formatted, but they had like in-person physical, physical artworks. And then also had the reverse carpet, the actual New York City space. And I think it would be really cool to project these spaces on like a large wall or a large scale and sort of in a communal in-person gallery setting and have some way of interactivity and be able to interact with them in-person with other people who are also attending the opening or the exhibition or even a screening. I guess I don't know if these could count as screenings. But I know the reverse carpet group had one in-person and it looks really cool. So to answer your question, absolutely, yes. I would love to exhibit in-person as well. I think you can easily set up a game controller to navigate your way through the space, so you can easily do it in a controlled environment without having a keyboard. I think one of the discussions on one of the channels in their discourse, they've talked about some cheap controller you can buy to navigate the space. I'm looking into probably seeing how some of those pieces live in a physical space. So that's something that I'm considering for a forthcoming exhibition. Yeah, I mean, that's generally something I'm interested in also, outside of New York City. You know, this idea of how do you layer objects that are made in a digital space and bring them back to a physical space and even maybe have something that resembles the object, but that is made with physical materials that kind of blurs the place of production. So I'm really interested in modes of production, how is it made? I work with fabric as well, so physical fabric. And then I use virtual fabric in my CGI stuff and kind of mirror those things and bring them in. I'm interested in 3D printing. I have something made digitally and you print it 3D and you have an image of the same thing. And maybe then you have an actual carpet where you took an image of the carpet and put that into the software. So it's like all this kind of layering and blurring, glitching between those different modes of existence and the texture and this idea of weaving in and out of those different realms. I think that's a bunch. I think one thing on that note that has been interesting to me is how easy it is to create or to translate 3D models in space that you find on Sketchfab or something, how easy it can be to put them in a virtual space but then also to 3D print them. But also I'm interested in how you recreate these things in a 3D model or whatever and they kind of lose their luster from the virtual space. That's been something that's kind of interesting to me because I made a Christmas ornament a while back that was based off a 3D model of a monument that exists in America. It looked really shiny on screen and then when you print it, it's kind of disappointing. When you were talking about working between the different materials, that's the first thing that came to mind. I don't know if anybody has much experience with 3D printers or other materials in that regard. I just think that that's the closest sort of connection to bringing the virtual into the physical realm. I think certain materials are becoming more accessible. You can get two-tone filaments, so the material that you print it with and because of the way it kind of prints out your 3D object, it almost feels iridescent if you've chosen the right material. So it can sort of add a different element to it. It can sort of add a different element to it. I think it possibly depends on what sort of plastic you're using or whatever you're using to print with. What was your most monumental? It was the Georgia Guidestones, which are like this series of conspiracy theories in America for a long time because they had 10 commandments for surviving a nuclear war. So the idea was it was making a Christmas ornament for this Gallery Blade study in New York. My idea was to play around with the idea of on my parents' Christmas tree, we have the Eiffel Tower and we have the Statue of Liberty. So bringing this kind of controversial monument to a Christmas tree I thought was funny. I'm not going to get into it, but the history of this monument is really interesting I'm not going to get into it, but the history of this monument is really interesting because it was actually destroyed. Someone blew it up a few years ago because basically right-wing people in Atlanta really hated it. So eventually someone went and literally blew it up. So it doesn't exist anymore. So I've always had this 3D model on my computer because I just think it's this fascinating monument and it's like a way to archive it. So it went from just having this 3D model to printing it out and making a very bizarre Christmas ornament. On the Wikipedia it has a little bit of footage of it being blown up. Yeah. Yeah, it's a weird, I mean I wouldn't spend too much time on it. It's a weird rabbit hole to go down. It's a very strange thing that existed in a very bizarre place for a long time. It is now gone. But I mean a lot of my work deals with American New Age spirituality and this was kind of like a site of New Age spirituality. People thought it was like the American Stonehenge. Yeah, it's just a very weird phenomenon. I wouldn't spend too much time on it. We're all going to be distracted now. We're going down that rabbit hole. You're going to go into like, you know, dolphin world or whatever. Go into all the corners of the internet that you shouldn't be. Okay. But yeah, no, I mean that was a really fun project though because it was like seeing this thing like become physical was like very interesting. And then having it be like presented on the Christmas tree was even more interesting. And actually a lot of the—let me see. I'm looking for—okay, I found it. This artist, Harris Rosenblum, I really love his work and he does a lot of stuff with World of Warcraft and like Warhammer, making like the artifacts from these games in real life. So I was actually pretty inspired by his work when making that monument ornament. But this is a link to an article about some of his work. And I think he's in New York now, but his work is super interesting because he takes these sort of virtual items and brings them into the real world in these like very uncanny ways. And it's very like jarring to see in real life. And obviously that first one that's shown is very like jarring because it looks like it's made out of flesh or something and it's very creepy. Yeah. We have about 12 minutes left here. I mean we can kind of close it early, but I'm curious, like, if we have any parting thoughts before we go about, you know, working between physical and virtual spaces, you know, as we've discussed. If this conversation kind of brought anything new to the forefront or if you're kind of still working through something. I hadn't thought about bringing the New York City space into a gallery space that just hadn't occurred to me. So I think that's interesting because I always had thought about bringing, you know, a gallery space into a space that hadn't occurred to me. So I think that's interesting because I always had thought about bringing, you know, a gallery space into a space that hadn't occurred to me. So I think that's interesting because I always had thought about bringing, you know, having an exchange with the New York City space, with a physical space or making a connection. But I hadn't really thought about how that might itself, you know, be brought into, it's like layering a space on top of another space, which is something I'm interested in. So, yeah, that was a new thought. I hadn't thought about it, which is obvious, but I just hadn't thought about it as I thought that was, yeah, interesting. I do think it's, like, hard to, like, when you're designing a New York City to think about it as, like, a physical space, you know, to think about that. Like, actually what Basil was saying earlier where it's, like, the space itself is quite, like, isolating and lonely in a kind of a cool way that you forget the outside world exists, which is kind of nice. But I think it's, like, a discussion that is worth, like, you know, like as we fill up these spaces and create something, it's definitely worth continuing on in the next couple weeks thinking about this, like, physical element or, like, showing it in ways other than just sort of, like, you know, then, you know, at the end we'll have, obviously, like a screening slash opening of, you know, of your work. But, yeah, I think it's, you know, I could, like, see a few of you seemed, like, very excited about it, too. It could be cool to just, like, think about ways that that could be facilitated. But, yeah, that's kind of all I have for today. Yeah, any other kind of final comments, questions, concerns? Is everyone feeling okay? Cool, cool, cool. I always end up with, like, 17 tabs to look through at the end of it. From all the art and all the artists that are shared. I'm excited to dive deeper into all of today's, all of today's resources. Chris has basically been informative in putting the programs together for this hybrid reality. When I saw this particular hybrid modality, I mean, I went off on a wrong tangent, but I immediately thought, has anybody seen Tetsuo? I think it's, I'm not sure when it was actually made, but it's a weird Japanese horror. And it's become a bit of an iconic horror, but it's about, it's called, Tetsuo means the Iron Man, and it's about, basically, a man who starts to become a machine, and it's just done in this weird, such a strange way. This guy becomes, not a cyborg, not a machine, but this sort of mess of wires and bits and pieces. Yeah, it's brilliant. And I don't know why, I just immediately thought of it and thought I could share it with you. I think you can get it on YouTube. I think you can actually see the whole thing. It's only about 67 minutes long, but it's pretty visceral. It's pretty hard-hitting. But, you know, if you're into that sort of weird, early notions of high-brigity, then it's worth a look. I can post up a link if you want. I think there's various trailers online as well. I'll be there. Thanks for the picture. Got it on archive. Also, it's weird. Watch that in Serial Experiments, Wayne, like Birdo posted. Yeah, exactly. Let's move back to back. Let's go back. Go back to the high-tech session, like, hey, guys, what's up? It's just, like, fucking bugging out. And there are, I mean, they've kind of dubbed it cyberpunk. I'm not sure if it's really the right sort of moniker for it, but it kind of can lead you down. It's not a particularly broad sort of genre of science fiction, but I used to love it as a younger person, you know, in my sort of late teens, early 20s, reading cyberpunk science fiction. There's one that's stuck in my head, called Vert, by an English writer called Geoff Newman. It's V-U-R-T, and it's a really weird, sort of, it feels like a hybrid thing, so people take these kind of, they're sort of drugs, they're not drugs, and they get sent off into these kind of virtual spaces and these trips through taking these things called feathers, which they put in their mouths, and it's just a weird, strange thing, and it's kind of, it's always felt like the precursor to what we're almost doing now, It's kind of, it's always felt like the precursor to what we're almost on the edge of now, this kind of, these dreamscapes that we're creating, these hybrid spaces, these things that just, on the periphery, we can almost touch them and almost make them, but I'll find it, I think I can find the answer to it. That's kind of what, I just wanted to add to those, it's just like, immediately I was thinking of those things when Philip's going to talk about hybrid modalities, but really it's kind of off at a tangent. Is that homework? Is that what? Is that homework to watch it? Yeah. Homework. I personally watched it years and years ago, I think I was probably in like, I won't say how old I am, many years ago. I'm really reluctant to give a link to VIRT on Amazon, because I don't like Amazon in the first term. Let me find... Anyway, here's a link to it, you can look a bit at what you will. I think that's it really, that's all I wanted to add, Chris. I suppose while you were all talking about the space and the virtual studio, I thought it was really insightful to hear how you're feeling about it. Well, I think we envisage this as being an extension, it being a virtual studio, and that you actually feel like it's a studio, but the fact that it feels like a lonely space, I'm slightly surprised to hear that. Not upset, but slightly surprised. Do any of you have physical studios that you work in, and you kind of sit in alone? Do you have similar feelings about those? Just my workstation. I'm really passionate about my workstation. I'm really passionate about the number of screens that I use, the setup of the screens. I like working next to windows. It'd be nice to have a studio, but I guess right now all my work is digital, so I don't really need much more than a really dedicated little corner of a space somewhere where I can set up my desk and my PC and my two monitors and work away. So I guess that is my studio. And it always, whenever I come back and I sit, start to sit in the morning for the day, it always feels like home in a really nice way. So I would say my corner, my little workstation, is my studio. And Newark City feels like an aside to it? Does it feel like another place you go to that's a little bit... It feels like sort of a new, yeah, it feels like a new room, a new world. It's similar, the 3D programs are also infinite. Like when you first open them up, it's like infinite space and it's like infinite void that you can fill in any direction. So Newark City feels really familiar in a similar way where it's like this infinite sort of space to create anything. But what I had, based on what I said last week, I had been sort of going at it in a very sort of linear, this is an art gallery, this is, you know, the floor is the floor, put in a building, the roof is the roof, and I hadn't really played with sort of ways that like gravity and physics might not apply and maybe like have a building floating in midair or have something upside down or sideways. So that's what I've been working on since last week's conversation is sort of trying to break some like reality in Newark City in a way that I hadn't before up till now. But yes, it feels really familiar mainly because it's similar to 3D programs where it's infinite space to start with, to be populated with whatever you can dream up. Yeah, I have a very similar experience with my studio. Pretty lonely. So do you think it's, maybe it's not a good or a bad thing, but do you think, you know, you'd feel differently if maybe if you arrived and it was a virtual room, maybe you could destroy it instead of being this open expanse? Destroy what? Go ahead, Burt. Go for it. No, I was going to say that's interesting, sort of like flipping it, like having it already be populated with something and then to like break it down and tear it apart. That would be very interesting. I've never done that before. Food for thought. Destruction physics. Also like a virtual rage room. I've never done a rage room, but I'm very curious about them. I don't know if I have it in me, but it would probably feel really, really cathartic. Yeah. Watch Tetsuro instead. All right, we'll call it there. It's whatever hour it is where you guys are, but it's 3 o'clock here. It's the perfect time to stop either. Thank you, everybody. It's nice to see you all again. This was a super cool conversation. Yeah, as always, keep it going in the chat. If stuff comes up, because I feel like, especially in terms of like showing your work, maybe in a physical way, there's like so much to be said. So, yeah. See you all on Thursday. Bye again. Thank you. Bye.