Jenny part 2 v2

In this episode of Seek Professional Help, Dave and his guest Jenny discuss their reflections on their previous conversation and the impact it had on them. Jenny talks about how her own experiences as a patient have made her realize the importance of empathy and understanding in healthcare. She discusses the frustrations and challenges she faced as a patient and how it has changed her perspective as a medical professional. They also touch on the importance of small gestures and personal connections in patient care. Jenny shares her journey to becoming a doctor, which involved retraining as a bicycle mechanic before pursuing medicine. Dave, we're here, part 2. Welcome back everyone. Episode 8 of Seek Professional Help. We're getting very close to 10 now, it's very exciting. You can almost taste it. Sorry, I think I've had too much caffeine today. If you haven't listened to part 1 of this chat with Jenny, which I think was an awesome chat, right? Go and listen to part 1 now, that is mental if you haven't. Yeah, that's an order. If you have jumped straight onto part 2 and fully ignored this, then it's your own fault. Yeah, no sympathy. No. It's not right, is it? I don't like it. We'll keep going. Quickly, what did you think about that first episode on reflection? On reflection, I think she is, she's got, on reflection, she makes me feel happy. I came out of that talk, that conversation with Jenny, and I felt happier. That's probably the best way I can describe that. I don't know what it was. I think some people do just have an aura around them, and from the moment she walked in, stumbled in. It's not very nice. I tell you, when you are listening to this back, I'm probably the only person listening to the back. I can't make those jokes. I don't know how well I can say that. I'm very angry with what he just said. You should be. I'm angry at myself. No, she lit up the room, I think, straight away, and she made me feel very comfortable, even though that's my job to do to her, considering she's our guest. So yeah, she's an inspiration from the bottom to the top, and she was the gift that kept on giving, I think. Yeah. There's some interesting and wide-ranging topics in this second part of our chat. I think we started to hallucinate slightly and just get a bit giddy. It got quite late, didn't it? That's why we're here. This is the reason we had to split up into two parts, but it got quite late, and we started chatting all sorts of stuff. Yeah. I hope you enjoy. Thank you. Me or the listeners? Anyone. Anyone that's listening. Good. Okay, everyone. Enjoy part two with Jenny, coming up. So I've got a question. I always try and put myself into your shoes. That wasn't meant to be a pun. Jenny's got this new brace on. Just a disclaimer here. My shoes are probably the weirdest pair of shoes in Great Britain right now, but I've got a size 38.5. I don't get UK sizes. I'll do Euro. Sorry, guys. I don't know what that means. 38.5 on my left foot, and a size 46 on my right foot. I told you the Franken heel was a bit weird. I always try and put myself into your shoes, and one of them always keeps falling off. Let me start again. Cut. As a medical professional who's undergone a lot of rehab and treatment and stuff and been in hospital and had operations that obviously you would have never had before, do you think this experience will make you a better doctor and a better clinician? Yeah, 100%. I think there's no way, unless you're made of stone, there's no way it cannot. I don't know the right word, really, but it's pretty humbling to end up, as I say, as the 40-year-old independent woman who all of a sudden cannot take a shit on her own without pressing the call bell for someone she maybe has never even met. Shout out to those amazing people in hospital who do that job, the healthcare assistants and the nurses are just amazing. But yeah, going through that process and the frustrations that come with it, even when the standard of care, like the standard of care I've received here has been exceptionally high, but it doesn't mean there are not frustrations, and it doesn't mean there are not people who are amazing clinicians, really well-intentioned, who come in, move your bedside table away so the team can speak to you and then don't put it back. And you know it's Saturday night and the nurses are so busy and you don't want to ring your bell to ask for your bedside table, and it's so near yet so far. You pour coffee on them. I only learnt that trick after discharge day, thanks for the teaching, if only I'd known. But yeah, so things like that and I instantly thought of all of the times that I've done that to some poor patient who can't reach their bedside table or their walker or their, you know, or I'd be, you know, sometimes I'd be on the phone to one of my very dear friends in Ukraine and they were on the front line and tomorrow, who knows, maybe I'd be able to speak to them, maybe they wouldn't be there. That's the reality of that, you know, of any war, but of this war, you know, it's obviously horrific and I'd be on the phone to a very dear friend and there'd be someone who'd, you know, be standing there with that facial expression that just says I'm the clinician, I'm so much more important than whoever you're on the phone to, so put the fucking phone down and speak with me now, patient, you know. Of course they didn't think that, they were all a lot kinder and more considerate than that, but you do feel a little bit like that, you know, and there were certainly times when I walked in to somebody's room with that attitude and I have no idea who they were talking, you know, on the phone to. They could have been saying goodbye to, you know, their aunt who was on her last legs somewhere else and it was me barging in, interrupting to tell them the results of their X-ray or whatever else. But I think in general in healthcare we see our time as just so important and we minimise the importance of the patient's time. And to my utter horror, because I always thought I was a bit better than that, being a patient, you know, with a pretty serious injury really made me realise that actually I'm not that good and I need to do better. Something I learnt really early on as a physio on the wards, I don't do a lot of wards stuff now, but a really quick one, I learnt the first few weeks that even though I wasn't at the time knowledgeable really, I'd got my degree but didn't really know a lot compared to most of the clinicians around, every time I finished seeing a patient, offer to go and make them a cup of tea and go, I'm willing to do that for you, I'll make you a cup of tea. And they end up thinking you're a better physio or whatever than the doctors who are super knowledgeable. And they're like, oh it's you, you're amazing, and I'm like, oh I don't really know what I'm doing from a clinical point of view but I'm willing to make you a cup of tea. So it's the little things. It really is, it makes a massive difference and the more incapacitated you are, the less independent you are, the more those little things make a massive difference. Incidentally, everyone was amazing at the big London hospital I was treated at, but my favourite person was the inpatient physio, she was amazing. She was just the person who knew exactly what I needed all the time, knew when I needed space, knew when I needed pushing versus when she needed to back off. She was actually a very experienced physio, but just that human touch. She was the only person who came round where I was never, other than the lead consultant, the only people who came round to my bedside where it didn't matter how grumpy I was, what time of day, what was going on, how much pain I was in, I was just really grateful to see them. So I think knowing where I went wrong for all of my career to date, it's not quite that, but you definitely cannot put yourself in the shoes of a patient with major trauma or a major illness unless you've actually had it. I'm convinced of that really. You can learn lessons, for sure, but for me anyway, I wasn't perceptive enough ever to really pick up those things until it was me. And now you can truly empathise with how it feels, you've lived that. Yeah, definitely. To a certain extent, with the caveat that everybody's experience is slightly different and it's no good me bouncing into someone's room trying to gee them up and crack the jokes that made me laugh when I couldn't toilet myself or reach my water on the bedside table. Somebody else could easily be like, get the hell out of my face, I do not want that approach. I don't know about you, David, but that's what keeps me going in the health profession because everybody is so different. It's not disease, it's not what people think when they're in school. I never wanted to be a doctor in school, but when people are in school and want to be a doctor, they're like, the body is fascinating, disease is fascinating, I want this career that makes me think. When did you decide you wanted to be a doctor out of interest? Yeah, that's kind of an interesting question because it's really not a very typical story, but I was in, I'd moved, so I'd spent half my life in the UK, half my life in New Zealand. I like the accent. New Zealand, on a total win. Yeah, it's sad because in New Zealand they think I'm British, Pommie, and in Britain they think I'm Kiwi or Aussie, so I can't win really, truly. And in Ukraine they definitely know I can't speak Ukrainian very well at all, but I'm trying. Maybe the next time we meet you'll have got a Ukrainian accent. Yeah, cool. Yeah, so I guess it was, so I actually retrained, I did something in the military for a few years and then I retrained as a bicycle mechanic because I was really enjoying my cycling. The sports always didn't help. I don't get this story. Have I not told you this? Oh my goodness. You can't just laugh though. So, you know, typical things people do when they come out of the military, you know, do security work, set up their own, you know, business, contracting or whatever. No, I just really liked mountain biking in particular. I did a bit of road cycling, but, you know, skinny tyres are not really my thing and the lycra are definitely not really my thing. But I was big into mountain biking and just really loved bikes, always loved bikes. Sport's been a huge part of my life, you know, my whole life. Probably the biggest challenge of being injured, doesn't come as any surprise to anyone, is that, you know, that aspect of missing out on sport and just moving, just physical activity. But anyway, loved mountain biking, so I decided, right, I'm going to be a bicycle mechanic for the rest of my life. That's what I'm going to do. So I did a training course. I ended up moving to New Zealand on a whim. That's a whole other massive story. Let's not go there. But I ended up in New Zealand. New Zealand is a really super cool country. It very much is who you know in many ways still and it certainly was back then, you know, quite a few years ago. So I really struggled to get a job initially as a bike mechanic and I started working in a factory bagging lollies. Sweets is the English word. Bagging sweets. Yep, really cerebral work. I remember we were not allowed to talk on the production line, but we could eat as much as we wanted. And I remember, yeah, I do remember the manager, she rationalised this by saying, look, we don't like theft. We don't like thieves. If we let you eat your fucking fill of sugary shit all day, you won't steal a bag of it and take it home. I was like, right, okay, that's fine. So I really liked the jet planes. That was my favourite. Jet planes and jelly beans. If I ever get a listening of weird and wonderful cancers, it'll probably be from those six months. But anyway, I was on a zero hours contract earning minimum wage as a recent immigrant bagging lollies on a production line. And other than my colleagues who were pretty cool people, it was fairly miserable. And I think I did a few months of that and I just thought, Jen, like, what are you doing? Like, what is this? You've gone from a successful career that you've thrown the towel into, you know, the zero hours miserable contract. But free sweets. But free, free jet planes and jelly beans. No, there was even some of that good, you know, that chocolate that's never actually seen a cocoa bean in its life. That kind of chocolate. It's the best kind. The stuff that Easter eggs are made of. Yeah, there was that too. But no, one day I just thought, you know, what are you doing? I'd done kind of okay at school until I was about 16, 17, until I could drive. Does that sound familiar? And then all of a sudden you go, you know, you went away and did some other cooler things and some sport and some flying and other bits and bobs. And then I guess I'd always wondered if I could do good at academic stuff. That sounds intelligent, doesn't it? And the answer is no. 100% no. It's taken me maybe 16 years to find out, but the answer was definitely no. Yeah, so I thought, oh, maybe I could go to university. And I was reading, I can't believe I'm admitting this to the world on a podcast. I really hope it is only your three mothers. You're really overselling this across the world. You might hit four of our mates and our mums. Yeah, where's your mum this week? She might be on the other side of the world in which case. Yeah, so I was reading this trashy novel. I don't like fiction. I was reading this trashy novel about a GP who hated her life and had just got divorced. And there was something in there that made me think, I wonder if I could be a doctor. It's too bizarre, isn't it? But honestly, it's completely true. And I ended up getting into Auckland Medical School. Thank you very much. I love the way you make decisions. It seems so almost flippant, but it worked out really well. It just worked out. I don't know, would it work out in the financial markets though, Scott? That's the thing. I mean, a lot of people have got rich on luck, so probably. The older days, it's better to be lucky than good. Exactly. So, you read a trashy book advising on a doctor. It's really embarrassing I'm admitting this to whoever's listening, but it's completely true. I ended up in, shout out to Auckland Medical School. Thank you very much for letting me in. But, no, look, with every year, I just realised how lucky I was to effectively trip over and fall on my face into medicine. Because it just got richer and richer and gave back more and more. And sort of more interesting, intriguing career. Probably a couple of times I've almost left. Just because I'm, you know, sometimes you get a bit bored. The world's a big place, isn't it? And there's lots of stuff to do. It's all a bit fascinating. One year I decided I wanted to race bikes. And did that. But it was pretty rubbish. It was really good fun though. And eventually... Or motorbikes? No, no, no. Bicycles. Yeah, yeah. And eventually the dean wrote to me and said, look, you're just about smart enough to take one year off. But you're not smart enough to take two years off. So, come on back. Or bugger off. But I'm glad I thought it through. I now work predominantly in rural hospitals. So, sort of true generalism really. Do a little bit of everything. Jack of all trades. Master of nothing. But there's always... You know, there's always phone a friend with some amazing specialists. Excuse me. Who we can phone up and ask for advice. And it's a wonderful community of colleagues. And it's very, very rewarding to serve these communities that are really in the back of the awn sometimes. Difficult access through to bigger hospitals. And all the medical treatment you might need there. If you get involved in some terrible trauma on your farm or whatever. Often we can send an air ambulance. And they maybe bypass the little hospital I would work in. But sometimes the place is flooded. The road's closed. Helicopter can't fly. And it becomes really difficult. And you end up with some quite challenging cases on your doorstep. That nobody would think of. That a rural hospital has to deal with. I don't think you guys really have anything like that over here. Except maybe in the... I don't know. West coast of Scotland. Out of... What? Out of Hebrides or something like that. Yeah. Certainly not in central London. So you do that all over the world basically? Just New Zealand. Oh really? Yeah. So although I did sort of sign up to go practice in Ukraine. I actually haven't really worked as a doctor there. Because I haven't needed to. Trauma is really quite simple. Horrific. Horrible. But simple and formulaic. Especially when you're at the sharp pointy end. And you don't have a lot of resources. Typical approach is make sure they don't bleed to death first of all. Anyone who's done a basic first aid course will know. In the civilian world apart from checking for danger. You're doctor ABC. You check for airway first. And then breathing. And then circulation. And on the battlefield and trauma context. We do things a little bit differently. We use an acronym called MARCH. And the first thing is M for Massive Haemorrhage. Because that's what's going to... Haemorrhage is bleeding right? So that's what's going to kill you. I like that the letter is for massive. And then they actually import it. But it hasn't got a letter. It's like the acronym is more... So it's massive. Massive. Massive. Anyone else finish that bit? Sorry. Go on. You're absolutely right. And this is one reason why I hate acronyms in medicine. Yeah. Because they're often complete nonsense. I actually preferred it when we just did eponymous names for things. You know. Random disease names. Made a lot more sense than trying to fit it into... You know. Shoehorn it into an acronym. Shoehorns are an interesting thing. Here's a thing I learnt today. So I went to... There's so many directions. I love it. Is this too random? You don't know because you don't know what I'm going to say. So I went to this marvellous place. The people who made my brace. Shout out to... Orthopaedics. I've had a lot of people do a lot of things for me. The people who made this brace. It does fit into this enormous shoe. But you can't really get it into the shoe without a shoehorn. Shoehorns in Ukraine? Ubiquitous. You can't rent an apartment without someone throwing in a shoehorn. That is interesting. Yeah. You get round someone's house and they don't have a shoehorn. It's like not having curtains. Or not having a sink. Where's your shoehorn? Britain? Not so easy. Never owned a shoehorn. Underrated. The super long ones as well. That's right. When you get a super long shoehorn. That's a game changer. It was so weird seeing my Ukrainian friends. Obviously not on the front line. We don't worry about shoehorns in the trenches. Anyway. You sort of go back to Kiev or Lviv. And see your friends. They're young fit healthy people. But instead of bending over to put their shoe on. They've got this massive shoehorn. Three and a half feet long. Cultural differences. This segment is going to get cut. Yeah. 100%. Should we go back to the shoehorn segment? Let's get rid of that. Let's not do that. This episode could be called. All about shoehorns. Shoehorns. But. Let's try and find some normality. Some normality again. So. Going back to your injury. I am very interested. How do you. And I guess Dave is going to chime in here. How do you go from start. To where you are. In terms of the whole physio process. From having a hole in your heel. As you said. What do you do? What's the process behind that? Because it must be very baby steps. Just lots of baby steps. I'm interested to hear. The process you went through. I guess. It really is baby steps. I knew it would be like that at the beginning. It's kind of logical. And everyone tells you that. But I didn't realise quite how baby the baby steps are. It's like baby cockroach steps. Not baby human steps. Just tiny little jumps. I guess the first thing. So it hasn't been until recently. That I could even stand. On the bad leg. So the first thing I ended up doing. Once they released me. From absolute bed rest. Was getting really good at balancing on my other leg. To sort of reach things. And hop around and move. And it's all about. It's all about finding ways to adapt. What you would normally do. In normal life. So now at that stage. I can use my left hand. So I just have my left leg. It's all about finding ways to use. And you sort of do as much as you can. And change the way you do things. But I think again. Patience is the key thing. It's just understanding. It's not even incremental gains. Because a lot of days it's losses. You win some. You lose some. Peaks and troughs of healing and progression. And just being patient. When you're actually going backwards. It's just the normal part of healing. It's not a linear progression. In the same way. That the Ukrainian counter offensive. That you guys would hear about on TV. It's not call of duty. On some games console. It's like. Okay. You're going to have good days and bad days. Some days you go forward. Some days you get pushed back a little bit. And I would say. It's more or less a process. Learning to use my hand again. And try and grip things. And move my fingers. And that was a really slow process. And you see it's still ongoing. I can't really make a fist yet. Learning not to point with my left index finger. That's not there anymore. It's like. Yeah. Just getting used to your new reality. Really slowly. I think. As you said. I'm definitely going to chime in. I think. And you've touched on it there. But. What I always try and do. With patience. Is that thing. Of setting. Really small goals. Which. If you go. Almost like a binary. I can or I can't. Can I walk on my bad foot? No. That's failure. So. If you compare yourself to where you were. Am I there? No. So this last three months has been. Completely wasted. If you look at it in that way. It just has to be. Little small. Ideally slightly measurable things. Let's talk about. How happy you were. In the first session or two. With the big toe. In terms of being. I mean. First session or two. When I was trying to. Move my ankle move my toe. And the toe was just a lump of stone. Wouldn't move up or down. It felt like. We would never ever get anywhere. And then you just chip away. Slowly slowly. I think the key thing is. Your goals have to be achievable. Maybe that's too easy. But you've got to be able to look. At a realistic time frame. You've got to have those long term goals. I want to be able to walk on both legs again. Preferably normally. Preferably with no brace. No support of any kind. No crutches. That may or may not happen. Either way. It's way in the future that I can evaluate that. Yes it's specific. Yes it's measurable. Particularly if you're in a lot of pain. So you've also got to have. Those really short term goals. Okay they've left my meal tray. Over the far side of the room again. But now I know I can get there. On one leg. Carefully balance and pull it back. Great that's a first. I've never done that before. Or say with the big toe thing. Just get it moving. Five or ten degrees. Which is not nearly enough to walk normally. But it's a start. But it was that functional thing of. You couldn't. Someone who isn't medical. Wouldn't know necessarily what this means. But toe touch weight there with your crutches. You couldn't. Your toe was so stiff that you couldn't even put the toe. Bottom of the toe on the floor really. Yeah. And then after a few sessions. We've got that now. You almost have to remind yourself. I think if you generally. Look at things with a positive mindset. The. The flip side to that. Is you forget so quickly. Where you were. I think maybe the more negative sort of people. Would easily remember. Just how hard it was last week. But I didn't really think about that. I just thought oh yeah sure. I've been out to bend my toe like this. Oh no wait I haven't actually. Actually that's a really hard fought win. And you forget just how bad things were. And how far you've come. And I think you've got to remember that. Otherwise you don't feel like you're going forward. Out of interest. Do you have a like a notebook. Or maybe something digital. Where you almost note down exactly the small. Like daily things that you do. So you can look back and remember like. Oh two weeks ago I actually couldn't bend my toe. X amount. Or like something to help you remember. Like how far you have come. Because like I saw you walking down. And you didn't remember anything before. So from my point of view. It's amazing. But I know it's been a massive journey to get there. And you just saying like. It's easy to forget. Is quite interesting. Yeah I think I've always been really lazy about journaling. You know they say you're supposed to journal. Show the sign of intelligence. Or whatever. But it's never really been for me. But a good friend of mine brought me the five minute journal. That was you know day one. In hospital pretty much. Visited and dropped that off for me. And I did use that quite a bit. And I think the concept is. You just write down three things you're grateful for. You know. One. One kind of lesson you've learnt today. Or something. And I'd kind of put that stuff. But also little things. Like the you know. Oh today was my first day that I could do such and such. Or just put down interesting things. You know I'd bled a lot from the original injury. So I'd note down what my haemoglobin was. You know. I'd note down which bacteria were growing in my heel. This week. There were five of them. I only even recognised one. From my whole career to date. There were some weird and wonderful things. In fact the clinical microbiologist came and visited me. In person on the ward. So I knew it was quite a big deal. Combat wounds are really dirty. So lots of bacteria. But yeah. Tried to note down a few things. Physios. You know I will always be writing. Illegally I have to write notes. After every session. I do with a patient. But we'll try and put some markers in there. And I find myself. Probably with Jenny and definitely with everyone. I see that. Because we're not good history. You know as humans. We're not good at remembering history. Even over a short amount of time. I go actually. This was here. A few weeks ago. And now it's here. Someone who's living with it day by day. I don't realise it has made that progress. We've been using scales for example. To measure your weight bearing. Yep. I can get 50% of my weight in that leg. Now I can get 55% of my weight. And objectively going. I don't think it's got any better. A few weeks ago. It was this. It's a note taking for videos a little bit. Like a journal. And we have to remind patients of it. It's almost like that thing of. Like a sculptor every day. If they're just chipping away and chipping away. They don't see those differences. But you take a two week gap. And you see someone again. Or someone loses a load of weight. And you haven't seen them in half a year. And you go oh my lord you've lost a load of weight. And you make that change in the mirror. And kind of forgotten that starting point. Yeah. Sometimes it's good just to zoom out isn't it. Yeah 100%. That's good. And I think one of the things you flagged quite early is. Most people on this sort of journey from major trauma. They need a break at some point. You know. How I've been living my life is. You know various torture devices. Given to me by you know. All the health professionals have been treating me. You know I put rubber bands around like my fingers. To try and make them bend more. And you know everything you do hurts. And you've got alarms for the whole day. To sort of okay. Well now is the time you do your 30 heel raises. Or whatever. And a couple weeks ago. I just bent back for two weeks. And just went and turned my brain off. And saw my friends and had a bit of fun. And didn't even go backwards. Probably progressed a little bit. So your plan is obviously to go back to Ukraine. Yep. Are you thinking are you going to wait it out there. Like is it. How do you think it's all going to end. What's in your. How do you think it would be interesting to hear from someone. That's actually been there. And been around people and all that kind of thing. Yeah I mean like I said earlier. The one thing that hasn't changed. That I think will be. Exactly what you've seen it on TV. Is like the spirit of the Ukrainian people. And just the. Resilience and the defiance. Because you've got people who are fighting for their homes. You know for their families. Literally fighting for their families. For their home towns. Home cities. And you know that. That is an extremely difficult force. For anybody to fight against. So you see we've got less. Despite all the. You know all the wonderful. Support from the west. You know we've. We've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. You know we've got a lot of support from the west. Definitely the western donations and everything else, I would never minimise that. But the fact remains, it's very very difficult to fight against people who are fighting for their families and for their home territory and their livelihood. and for their home territory and their livelihood. I haven't asked you this before, but have you got any but have you got any like historical or family association like historical or family association with Ukraine at all? Did you know much about Ukraine before any of this? Absolutely no association at all and I knew very little and I'm sort of ashamed to admit it now because Ukraine is a huge country and a really interesting culture and the people are exceptionally friendly. You can be a cynic and say well if you're going to go help them out medically, fight for them of course they're going to be friendly, but no they're just friendly, they're just good people. There are lots of parallels with New Zealand that I didn't realise when I went out there. I think both of the countries and cultures really respect their producers, you know the farmers, the agricultural workers you've got that, you've got this kind of in New Zealand we call it the number eight wire approach, I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but it's the idea that number eight bring out the shoe horns, it's all about the shoe horns. The idea that you can fix anything with a bit of number eight wire which is fencing wire, any farmer can fix anything with that. Ukraine has got the same deal and I'm sure you've seen it where you've seen them modifying drones and modifying cars to make ambulances and repairing buildings with things that you wouldn't normally use to repair buildings. They've just got a way of making it work a resilience and a resourcefulness and I see parallels in that with New Zealand I guess it makes me feel a bit more comfortable there, it feels familiar Home away from home almost. Even in the middle of a war zone which is a little bit bizarre and the openness I think the openness of the people the friendliness of the people they generally give you the benefit of the doubt and they'll be friendly, happy give you the shirt off their back and it's cool I've really enjoyed living there and learning about the culture despite the obvious Amazing and I guess that's probably a nice place to start to round this off but if you had a final message that you want to give to the people, what would it be? Probably twofold, one to the individual if life gives you lemons make lemonade, just get on with it and if you can, take the support from people around you and do the best you can because there will be plenty of other people who have faced whatever challenge it is that you're doing and one for everyone as a whole particularly in Britain, thank you so much for everything you've done for Ukraine and please, please don't forget Ukraine Jenny thank you honestly Scott and I have been making this for a little while but it was quite a long time ago when I'm seeing I'm treating this really inspirational individual and told him a bit about your story and I was like we need to get her on the podcast it's potentially come a bit earlier than we thought it would but it was one of those where I was like everything about you your attitude that mental resilience that kind of lust for learning and for life is genuinely really inspirational smashed your rehab you know, yeah people have helped you a lot along the way but the only person who's managed, you know, still down to you to be the person behind all of that so thanks for coming on it's been a laugh it's been a real laugh so that ends our whole conversation with Jenny over two parts I don't know about you but listening back to it now just reminded me how great a conversation we had how much we covered you know from wars in Ukraine to rehab to shoehorns I think we got it absolutely all in and for our first guest I think pretty elite what were your thoughts Scott on getting a guest on and all that jazz yeah I think the guest approach is where we're going to go with this now so if you're tuning in we've got some big plans for the future and we've got some really good guests coming up so yeah stay tuned watch out for the next episode it's going to be a good one and always remember seek professional help oh god I feel sick