Fiona and the Penguins

In this podcast episode, Fiona is the host and is joined by Salen, a psychology expert in neurological disorders, and Ben, a music therapist specialist. They discuss the potential of music therapy in treating neurological disorders such as autism, Alzheimer's, ADHD, depression, anxiety, and dementia. They mention the historical background of music therapy and its effectiveness in improving cognitive functions and reducing agitation. They also highlight the limited availability of music therapy in Ireland and the need for more resources. The episode concludes with Fiona thanking the guests and promoting their website and upcoming episodes. Hello, welcome to our podcast Fiona and the Penguins. My name is Fiona and I'm going to be the host of today's podcast. Joining me today I have Salen and Ben, the Penguins for the day. Salen is an expert in psychology who specialises in neurological disorders. Thanks for inviting me Fiona, I'm glad to be here. My name is Salen and I'm studying psychology at Manitha University where I specialise in studying several neurological disorders like autism, Alzheimer's, ADHD and several others. Thanks so much for joining us today Salen. We also have Ben who is our music therapist specialist. Hi everyone, my name is Ben and I am a music therapist specialist. Thank you so much Fiona for having me on the podcast. This topic has been so close to my heart ever since starting in the music therapy field many years ago. I have so much research I'd like to discuss today and I'm looking forward to sharing it with you guys. Thanks Ben. So in today's podcast we'll be discussing the potential that music therapy has on neurological disorders such as autism, Alzheimer's, ADHD, depression, anxiety and dementia. Please head to our website if you'd like more information on this topic. Here you'll be able to find all of our contact information. So let us get right into it. Salen, would you be able to tell us what your professional opinion as a psychologist is on the potential that music therapy has on these neurological disorders? Well Fiona, I think it's reasonable doubt that it's a struggle to live by any kind of neurological disorder or condition, especially ones that affect like cognitive function. But since music is so well integrated into Irish culture, theoretically it shouldn't be too hard to introduce the concept. That's really interesting. Would you be able to elaborate a bit more on this for us? Well not only is there proof of the effectiveness of music therapy dating to at least the early 1800s, but even as recent as this year there are articles that have already shown the positive result of music therapy for dementia, Alzheimer's and improvements in mood and condition and memory. So the potential is quite obvious. It's so fascinating that the evidence dates back to nearly the early 1800s. I'm so curious to find out more about this. Of course it's fascinating, Fiona. So essentially the School of Music Therapy in Vienna was the first institution to include music therapy into medicine and psychiatric practices. Not only this, different kinds of poets and scholars at the time emphasized the importance of music into psychiatric care during that time period. And another strong influence of music therapy in the 17th century was that many doctors were kind of musically gifted. So the primary goal of music therapy at the time was to prevent, cure and rehabilitate chronic illnesses. It's amazing to hear how far this research dates back to and I can't wait to hear about how far it's come. Ben, what about your professional opinion on the potential that music therapy has on these neurological disorders? Yeah, well I would definitely have to agree with what Céline said first of all. So my research that shows that the effects of music therapy has had on those who suffer with these disorders has been so profoundly positive. Ben, would you be able to tell me what sort of proof do you have to back up your research findings? Yeah, of course. So one thing that comes to mind is the case study which I was recently researching involving 401 college students that have been studying Ukraine. But unfortunately, obviously, this has been completely displaced due to the ongoing war there. And this has caused such daily amounts of major levels of anxiety in students' lives. So one group of students, we had a study done with one group of students who were split into two separate groups. The first group received 12 sessions of music therapy and then the other students received zero. So after only as little as those 12 sessions, those first findings show that the first groups anxiety levels dropped so significantly from severe levels to mild levels. However, those who didn't receive any music therapy sessions whatsoever still displayed such prominent levels of daily anxiety. It's quite impressive that it only took 12 sessions to see the results. How about yourself, Céline? Is there any research that you might have come across with similar findings to Ben? Of course. There's also a particular Spanish article that shows the effectiveness of music therapy in patients with Alzheimer's disease. So essentially they had picked up music to their own taste and partook in musical activities where they played instruments and danced and whatnot. And after only two sessions, there were already increased improvements in cognitive functions and reductions in that agitation as well. And language and memory also improved too. Yeah, see, it really does not take long at all to see improvements even after only a few sessions of this therapy. Well, it's so clear from what you've both discovered that the potential of music therapy is simply incredible and even life-changing. It's clear that those who are suffering with these neurological disorders impacting their daily lives are in desperate need of this therapy. But Ben, do you believe that enough is being done in Ireland to guarantee that these people with these kind of neurological disorders have access to music therapy? No, absolutely not. I don't believe there's enough that's being done with Ireland to ensure that people are receiving the relevant assistance. So much more needs to be done. So one way we could see this is through information put out on online websites related to music therapy. So one website founded in 1992 was the Irish Association of Creative Arts Therapists. Their research has shown there's actually only 52 music therapists available in Ireland. So that would mean there's only one music therapist for approximately every 115,000 people in Ireland, if you can actually believe that. And this is listed on the website. This might seem like a lot to other people, but research of Liam Murphy has shown otherwise. I can't believe that, Ben. Would you be able to expand a bit more on this for us? Yeah, definitely. So another example would be the Department of Education in Ireland has yet to even confer statutory recognition of music therapists as a profession, as Liam Murphy has discovered. From this, music therapy is not even recognised on Ireland property, never mind say guaranteed. I really can't believe that there's only 52 music therapists within Ireland, yet the population of Ireland is nearly 6 million. Saylan, why do you think that this is the case? I mean, like Ben said on this topic, there should be more to be done to ensure that music therapy is more readily available and accessible for aiding those in neurological conditions. However, I do believe that the small number of professionals in this field is a sign that music therapy can't be the only thing that's relied on for treatment. Like for people who suffer from ADHD, for example, might need to seek other forms of help. What other forms of help are people receiving at this time? Well, modern day medicines such as methylphenidate and amphetamine. But of course, not everyone has the money or the resources to afford that. So unfortunately, it's kind of inconsistent. Exactly. Modern day medicines can be so expensive and this is why we need to find cheap alternatives in the music therapy field. It's evident from both your responses that music therapy is such an effective therapy. Could you both please inform the listeners about the types of resources provided in Ireland for those who might be struggling with any of these neurological disorders? Yeah, definitely. So well, for one example, probably the most well-known one, the HSE provides free music therapy sessions for people who suffer with mental illnesses such as depression and for who may need to enter care facilities for cases of extreme depression. It has also helped previous patients with struggles such as isolation, social interaction and self-expression. As well as this, it also improves self-esteem for some patients the more they participated in this music therapy. Like even this year, music therapy has been used to help people to cope with loneliness and depression, even and especially after the COVID-19 pandemic, where caregivers were unable to reach their patients. And music therapy has been able to help people remotely and this has led to a better quality of life for many people as the ability to express themselves improves since language is incredibly challenging for them. And it's so clear that the two of you have done wonders on discussing the many reasons for implementing music therapy into Ireland. But would you be able to tell me what are the negatives of music therapy, if any? Unfortunately, when it comes to something severe like depression, the number of sessions required to see beneficial results is much higher than other disorders, like Alzheimer's or ADHD. And even with increased sessions, it's harder to maintain the benefits of music therapy with depressed patients. Yeah, that's a really good question. Unfortunately, like anything, life is always going to be pros and cons with things. I suppose that's true. But what about people who just don't have any interest in music? I know that it's so well integrated into our culture, like Salem previously said, but there will always be a small minority of people who will simply just have no interest in music at all. Another great question. As someone who works in the music therapy field and is fully familiar with people who have no interest in music, such as family, friends and people in other fields, people who cannot stand music are just not going to find any benefit from music therapy. I think personally that when a patient does not want to participate in music therapy in any sense, like not having any interest in music, singing, dancing, playing instruments or etc., I think it would just honestly be best for them to find another alternative treatment elsewhere. That's such a pity in this case, but I appreciate your honesty. On a different note, music therapy as a master's degree only became available in Ireland in the University of Limerick in the year 1998. Therefore, it's still a relatively new profession. Music therapy has been so effective in other countries, like Spain and Ukraine. Why do you think that it's yet to progress further within Ireland? So, well, basically, unfortunately, Irish music therapists, as we've previously discussed, are not even state registered or officially recognised within the Irish healthcare system yet. So this obviously definitely creates many barriers regarding sustainable employment. So there's such a lack of awareness around the surrounding profession anyways. However, there are fortunately a growing number of trainees, increased associate memberships and many new contracted jobs related to the field of music therapy that is growing and ongoing at the moment. Well, I didn't know that. That's absolutely ridiculous. It's a shame that music therapists are not state registered yet in Ireland. Hopefully this matter will change in the coming years. Fingers crossed, I hope that's the case. What can you tell me about the cost of bringing music therapy into Ireland? Do either of you feel that it could be expensive to implement this new method of therapy? Well, it's really easy to say that implementing any kind of therapy into the country would be expensive. But with the case of music therapy, all that's really necessary in a professional session would be speakers with good sound quality and a sound perfume. But I think in the terms of remoteness, all a person would need would be like a phone and a quiet room to themselves to play music or to dance to. Yeah, I definitely agree with Saelyn. All the music therapist specialists would need for the patient is a good room, a good sound quality, the phone and good speakers. And this is not really an expensive method to introduce, obviously, regarding the cost of the phone and speakers. What about your individual opinions as professionals? Why do you both like the method of music therapy? Well, my favourite thing about music therapy is that it can be done remotely. And it's so easy for someone to do it in their comfort in their own homes, since they're in their own space and they can choose who they're surrounded by. And like the only thing a person would need, again, would be a quiet place and a device to play music. Yeah, definitely agree. I really appreciate how much music therapy can bring so much ease, joy and relief, not only to die-hard music lovers, but also people struggling with these neurological disorders and mental illnesses. It's such a diverse therapy, yet it's so baffling to me that it's so underutilised and underappreciated in Ireland. I really love both of those answers. It's clear that you both have a passion for music therapy, like myself. This is also a topic of extreme importance to me, and everything you've both contributed to today's podcast has helped to shed some light on this method of therapy. Well, we've spent the podcast discussing how music therapy has been so beneficial for people living with neurological disorders. But is there any other field where this type of therapy could potentially help other groups of people? Well Fiona, the British Cancer Research UK have recently stated that music therapy can also help patients who have been diagnosed with cancer in helping the reduction of anxiety, but also, interestingly, it helps reduce the symptoms and can help cope with fatigue and pain levels. Oh my gosh, that's so amazing to hear how beneficial this can be for so many other conditions. I'm honestly so surprised. I never actually knew a lot about this. I'm definitely going to have to investigate into this myself. Therapy is so cost effective and it's so useful that it's an absolute shame that it hasn't taken off in this country as well as compared to others. Well, thank you both so much for taking the time to join me today. It's now super clear that this form of therapy is such a powerful tool. Music therapy has the potential to impact a person's life so positively. However, there is a need for more readily available sources in present-day Ireland for people to access. Yeah, there's absolutely so much more of a need for resources, but I do think we're taking some necessary steps in the right direction and it was a pleasure to be on the podcast. Yeah, Fiona, it was a pleasure as well. Well, that's all the time we have for today. I'd like to thank the listeners for tuning in. Please remember to tune in next week for more information. If you have any questions or queries you'd like answered, please feel free to send us an email. You can also access our website which provides information and you can find our Fiona and Penguin's newest merch over there too. Other than that, thank you very much and good luck. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye-bye. Please head to our social media where you can find a sneak peek of next week's podcast on Prime Streams with Fiona and the Penguins.