FINAL BATS EPISODE 2 BURNOUT

The conversation discusses the topic of burnout, specifically in the context of midwifery and healthcare. The speakers highlight that burnout is a symptom of a larger systemic problem and not just a personal issue. They emphasize the importance of addressing the underlying causes of burnout and creating a healthier work-life balance. The conversation also touches on the societal expectations placed on women and the need for self-care and setting boundaries. The speakers encourage a shift in mindset and advocate for change within the healthcare system. I'm a wild, wild woman Mother Mary with a ball in her steet I'm a wild, wild woman Go ahead and call me I'm a wild, wild woman Mother Mary with a ball in her steet I'm a wild, wild woman Go ahead and call me I'm a wild, wild woman Mother Mary with a ball in her seat I'm a wild, wild woman Mother Mary with a ball in her seat We're so excited that you decided to stick around and join us for another conversation. For those of you who decided to come back and continue to listen to the shit show that we are, we really appreciate you. Let's just jump right in on this really tough topic that is so prevalent and gets so much press and gets talked about a lot, but I think we want to take a little bit deeper look at it and maybe cover some angles of it that you're not really getting a lot of coverage on. What we're going to talk about today, our topic, is burnout. Burnout in midwifery, burnout in health care, burnout as a woman, woman-centered burnout. Yep. I mean, it's such a hot topic, and I think a lot of people have been talking about it, especially with the pandemic, especially with health care. We're losing tons of nurses, tons of providers to burnout, but I don't think a lot of people are talking about what's behind burnout. Yeah. So, yes, all these people are living in exodus in droves as providers in the hospital, as providers in the practice. They're just leaving health care. And the pandemic was the camel that, you know, the strut, whatever the whole saying is, this is what broke it. It was already broken, but this pandemic came in and busted this dam wide open. So what's behind it, and where can we start to acknowledge this, talk about this, and how are we going to fix it? Because if we don't come through and start giving a voice to this, it's never going to get fixed. No. And this was a topic that was strong for me prior to the pandemic, and I had already started to kind of pick it apart, tease it apart in my mind before any of this COVID stuff happened. And I had been watching it happen to different people that I cared about and that I had worked alongside of and had started to really try and tease apart what was going on with burnout. And like Namal said, when the pandemic hit, it just broke it all wide open, and it became a buzzword, which is horrible, when something becomes a buzzword. Yeah, I think it was a buzzword before, but the pandemic really put it in there. And, right, and I think, you know, how did we go in two years as being health care providers, as nurses, because most of us are nurses, how did we go from being heroes to now being, you know, the scum of the earth, right? Like, it's just not right. It's not fair. We're disposable. Yep. We're disposable, right? And as women, we've been taught we're disposable from birth. So we're really going to get into this, and I think I want to preface this by saying, Nicole and I, we've talked about this a lot, and she had printed off some of our text messages, and, you know, my first line was, I'm so pissed off. And I think I just want to say anger really resonates inside me. It's like my first go-to emotion. And so it's just an easy motion for me to tap into, and I think it is for so many of us. And as I dived into and read this book cover to cover, I'm going to hold it up and you all can't see it, but I read the brand-new New York Times bestseller book called Burnout, the Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily Nagoski, and I want everybody to know we've never talked to her. She doesn't even know we're hawking her book on this show, but I've got it earmarked with sticky notes. Things are highlighted. They are coming out all three sides. I can see the book. All three sides of this book. Sticky everywhere, which is completely my style, by the way. Yeah, my style is like there's notes in the margins of the book, which is how I do when I read books because things hit me and I'm like, oh, that's a good one. And so I just kept saying, I kept sending Nicole texts, and I'm like I'm really pissed off about this because it hits home. And when anger comes up, it's like what's underneath the anger, right? So many of us, anger is our top emotion because we don't want to go down further and then it gets into the stickiness of what makes us as humans. And so for me, I got, like I said, initially mad. And then when I started diving into it and looking like, okay, what is it about this that's making me so angry, the truthfulness in this book? And it's that we as women have been taught from birth to be, to always put our needs last. That's what it is. She gives it a name. Emily Nagoski gives it a name. She calls it the human giver syndrome. And as I sat there and took in this misogyny and the way she writes it, and I'm like, that's it, the human giver syndrome. Like we in our day-to-day life as women are expected to be pretty, to be happy, to be calm, right? We're going to smile all the time. Don't upset the apple cart, right? Don't make a scene. Always take care of everybody else. And we're supposed to do this in our private life, our personal life. And as midwives, we all carry this through. We do. As health care providers. And even though we are a profession that is largely made up of women, we do it to and with each other. That when there are voices of dissent or voices of differing opinions, we kind of rally around to make those voices go away so the picture can be pretty again. Right. And that whole process is exhausting. It's a battle. We're fighting a constant battle. We're in war all the time. We're in war for our instincts inside. We've got to self-preserve or be self-preservation. But at the same time, you've got to take care of other people. But then if you try to take care of yourself and set boundaries, you're considered selfish, right? Which I want to make that word a positive word. I don't want to have any more negative connotation. So, God, this plays so deep into burnout in health care. And I will say also that burnout always shows up. Even for those people who say or believe that they aren't burned out, it shows up in the little things that we do. The self-protective mode is what we go into when we start to feel that burnout. And so even if we are poor with boundaries or especially for people who are very poor with boundaries because they've been in that giver syndrome, that role, it starts to leak out in other ways. And usually those ways are toxic and not helpful to the people around you because you are not in a place where you can acknowledge that you're burned out and that you can't give. And you're so trained to be a giver that to admit to yourself that maybe you need some boundaries in place between you and everything else in the world. Maybe you're even feeling like you're not good enough. It brings up so many. It churns up all those emotions. So instead of dealing with those emotions, you adapt behaviors that are self-protective because you need it because you're burned out, but that don't actually address the issue. Correct. And for most of us, those self-preservation behaviors are things that we have fine-tuned since childhood because they've served us well throughout our life to get us to where we are. There's so much behind this, behind burnout instead of just burnout. And burnout is just a symptom. It's not the problem. Burnout is a symptom of a larger process that's churning on behind you. And so any time that you make an attempt to fix the symptom without addressing the problem that lies behind it, you're just pushing it further down the road to someplace else. Exactly. So I think for – I know for me personally, I'm going to speak for myself, my burnout shows up as like exhaustion. And I have a sense that I lose some compassion for the women that I'm treating, and I've seen that firsthand for myself. And I don't like that because I can acknowledge that it's happening. I consider myself a pretty attentive midwife when I'm in the office, but there's sometimes I'm just, you know, you're tuned out. You're like, ah, you're in the exam room and they're talking, you know, they're sharing and discussing what's wrong, and you're just kind of like I don't have the compassion to be here today. And just you're exhausted. We, especially as midwives, we just burn the candle at both ends. We are just plum wore out. And that needs to be addressed too, which we'll do that at another time. I think we're going to do another session on talking about scheduling and setting firmer boundaries around that. You know, I feel a lot of times when I'm in observation mode and watching how things play out, you see certain behaviors in colleagues that they're not obviously saying that they're burned out, but they're acting burned out. When you are continually the midwife who sits on the inductions versus progressing them forward. Not that every single induction that uses Cervidil is showing up as burnout, but we know there are times when we have, as ourselves, used it as like I'm just going to do Cervidil because I need a rest. There are providers who show up in those ways that they are in continuous need of that rest. Yeah. You know why? They're burned out. It's not necessarily, you know, you get caught up in those conversations. Oh, so-and-so is so lazy. It's not necessarily a value judgment of them being lazy. Maybe they're burned out and don't know how to communicate. They're burned out. They're poor with boundaries. Poor with boundaries, I also think that because of the way that we've been brought up in this society as women of don't address what's really going on, you know, keep the mask there, right? And we are, in the United States, a society of grit, persistence, get it done, constantly on the go, no time to acknowledge what's going on for real inside of you. And so I think a lot of that, you feel like a sense of failure if you're not if you admit you've got some defeat here. Right. Like, I feel defeated. I'm tired. I need rest. And when you say that, people are like, what do you mean you need rest? I can keep going all day. How many times have you said that to somebody? I'm, like, really tired. And they're like, what are you tired for? Yeah. I can keep going. We really do have that mentality within our sisterhood of midwives where there's that thought that if you admit to being tired, if you admit to just not feeling it, that you're seen as a lesser midwife. Mm-hmm. Right. And it's not fair. And what's the average? I think we work five years before we start looking at other options of leaving midwifery. I think it's five. Yeah. That's crazy. Five years. I think within our personal circle, we've all kind of had this discussion before. And when we all hit that seven-year mark, yeah, we started to really feel it in our bones, like that we need to change, we need to shift. It was with our hospital-based midwives. It was with the midwives who were working out of hospital. But that seven-year mark was just tantamount to that shift that people felt. I'm at, what, five to six years now out from school? Just like I said in the first or last episode, I don't know if I'm going back to bedside. We'll have to see where that plays out. But I think moving forward through some of this, so like when you start to sit there and feel these, when you have these feelings inside you of burnout, the loss of compassion, loss of caring, your exhaustion, depersonalization, feelings of not being worthy, I think we need to start shifting it. How are we looking at this? Like what is the benefit of continuing the falsehood of working all the time and just burning out? Like what is that benefit of that? Who is that benefiting? It's benefiting the hospital system. Or the birth center system or whatever system is set up because we're not all in that system. But that system, though, is designed to burn through you. People out. It is designed to burn your providers out because when you leave, there's somebody else right behind you willing to step into that role and take the abuse. Yes. It is a systemic problem. It is not a person's problem. I think that's what we wanted to talk. Yes. It's a complete systemic problem. And the hospital systems, the insurance systems, are a patriarchal systemic problem. Obstetrics is a patriarchal system, completely antithesis of midwifery in its origin and design. Midwives traditionally weren't in this to burnout. No. We were in this to take care of mamas and families. When women were doing this in their communities, they were probably also at some point working harder than some of us are now. But they were independent. They had boundaries and families, connections. And once we entered into the machinery of the system set up by men and the male system of our society, they've done it to themselves, but we've also become... Allowed it to happen. Yes. We've become a part of that as well where we're just cogs. Moving in part in a larger machinery. So I think I want to acknowledge that the shifts that occurred in women's rights and bringing women up through the ranks in the 70s and the 80s, they worked hard to get us to a point where we're at where we can have more roles in higher management and CEOs and CFOs. We're not there yet. That's like an 80 to 20% difference. I do want to acknowledge that. But I also want to acknowledge that I don't want to play this game. I'm not in it for that. I agree. And I think also to just continue without advancing further advancement, it doesn't honor the roles, the sacrifices that all the women who before us made. They did not make those sacrifices so that we could level off our achievement and end it there. And then also burn through each other. The purpose of all of that foundational work that they did, whether they're aware or not, because I think there are some that are still working and in existence who do carry on that, well, I did it. You should be able to too. You should be able to do it too. But that's a smack in the face of the foundational work of progress that they did. We should be continuing to progress. We should be continuing to grow, not sitting still, not shaming each other. I agree. And I think also just that we need to have a seat at the table how we're going to change this. You know, the new generation coming in, everybody likes to make fun of these Gen Xers and Zers and whatever else they're called. I think they're pretty cool. I really do, because they want to come into a job with a good work-life balance, and that's really important to them. And so I want to jump on board with those kids. I agree. I mean, that's exactly, I think, what we're driving towards, right, is we are so caught up in shaming. And I've had the conversation myself, oh, these new midwives, they don't want to work weekends. Oh, they don't ever want to work a night shift. I don't think that's true. I think what they're saying is we don't want to participate in the same system that exists. We want a different system. It's not that the new grads want all the pay and none of the work. And I've had those conversations. I think they want to, they're willing to work. Yeah. Yeah. They're willing to work. They want respect, and they want appropriate pay for the work that they're doing, and they want good work-life balance. And I'm like, that's an edge. Right. And so we engage in conversation, we meaning myself and others that I have had the conversations with. But I've had those conversations, too, like, oh, my gosh, I know. Like, how did they ever want to become a midwife and not think they were never going to stay up all night? But that's a shaming conversation. That's my own burnout showing up. That is how burnout shows up. It's not just that I'm exhausted, or it's not just that I can't connect with my patients. I mean, it shows up in the way we communicate with one another, and the way we look at one another, and the way we shame one another. That's burnout. It's not just the obvious things. And that can't be fixed by getting a massage. That can't be fixed by lighting a candle. The whole self-care is a farce. I think that is a money-making gimmick that has been put out there. Yes, you need massages. We do. We need massages. But self-care is an inside job. Correct. Self-care is boundary setting. Self-care is saying, I'm going to curl up with a book and read now, and a cup of tea, and leave me the fuck alone. That's self-care. Self-care is, I'm not working 72 hours for you this week. Yes. That's self-care. It's the internal work we do to become our own best advocate. That is self-care. Correct. That's showing up for yourself. And it's also eating well, exercising. Those things are self-care. The bonus of it is, yes, a massage is great. Facials are lovely. But what are you doing to get yourself there that you have the time to be able to take that? And they don't actually recharge your battery the way it's supposed to. No, they don't. Because that massage did not fix the conversation. You couldn't have with whoever it was you needed to have the conversation with. Yeah. So when we think about burnout, I mean, the way I like to think about burnout is how am I not showing up for myself? Because that burnout is the symptom of me not being clear in my boundaries or me not being aligned in practice with my beliefs. That's what burnout is. That's how burnout shows up. It's not the hours you work. I mean, over time, yes, no one can work the number of hours that some people do forever. You're going to burn out from the exhaustion piece of it. Yeah, you know that our midwife schedules are bullshit. Yeah. You see them advertised on there. They're like, oh, come work with my group. And we've got four days of office and one and three days of call. It's a great system. You're like, no, that is not. No, it is not. I want post-call off. I want two days in the office. Like, that's 40 hours a week. But I will also say that when you, because I spent that year doing my own work, working part-time from one practice and PRN for another. And there were times when I was in charge of how much I worked that I completely overbooked myself and worked myself way too hard. And I will still say that even though I was exhausted and felt stressed by that situation, I was not burned out because it was not coming from without me. It had come from within, that I had been the person who had made those decisions. Well, you chose it. You made that decision. It was remarkably different than even when I was working in another environment and maybe I was working less. I was actually far more burned out within that system. And so because I wasn't in alignment, because I was feeling like I wasn't able to advocate for myself in those situations, the burnout was present. When I was scheduling myself and overextending myself and not showing good boundaries, yes, I was exhausted. But it wasn't burned out. And I would simply learn my lesson and I scheduled myself maybe a little less extensively the month following correcting it. But sure enough, two or three months down the road, there I was overscheduling myself. But I was doing that because of the enthusiasm I felt, because I felt like I could commit to that schedule, only to find out in the middle of it, it wasn't working for me from a purely physical standpoint, which could spill into the mental. But I think it just highlights a big difference between what burnout is and what exhaustion is, because the two are not the same thing. They're not the same. The compassion fatigue, that's another key buzzword right now that we're hearing, it's not the same as the burnout. I think you hit on something really important about your workplace and how many of us stay in a bad situation, stay in a toxic practice and workplace and relationship with other providers. We stay in that because we perceive as women that we don't have another option or we're dismissing our own self, minimizing what's going on. We feel helpless and hopeless. And again, that is because it's the patriarchy of the system that we're working for and what we've been raised as women. We're constantly giving and don't upset things and don't acknowledge. But if we don't start stepping out of these environments, it's going to continue. And we're going to do another segment on toxic workplace. Definitely has its own topic, but it does play a big role in your burnout. So really having to accept that when you're not in alignment, you are at great risk for falling into that burnout. And in the long run, that's not going to serve you or your dreams as a midwife. If you're really doing your patients ill service by staying in those situations, you're doing yourself no favors, obviously. You're doing the profession no favors. I know we hear it all the time, like, I don't have any other options. But I think if you look at those situations as a challenge to your creativity. You have options. You have options. You have options. I think midwifery is one of the most creative job asks what we can do out there. And so many of us now are living in state for regaining more autonomous practice. We can step out of that environment. If you're going to work in the morning with a knot in your stomach, that's not the place for you. That's not the place for you. And I know, I've done it. And I was in one of those situations where on paper, I should have been extremely grateful to be where I was. Again, we're taught to be grateful for what we're being given, right? Yep. Look at this great practice. Look at what you're doing. And the reality was, it was a mismatch. The reality was not what was represented on paper, was not the image that other people had and were thinking that my opportunity was. The reality of my situation was untenable at times. And when you're in those modes, your own creativity is actually being shut down. So your thoughts of not being able to think your way out of that and thinking that you don't have options is also part of that process. It's built into that process. The shutting down of your connection to yourself, you're not in alignment. Of course you are having difficulty tapping into your own creativity and figuring your own way out of it. It's part of the process. So finding ways to reconnect to yourself, to your core self, is terribly important if you're going to be able to navigate your way out of that, if you're feeling like you just are in a place and a situation where you don't have options. In the book, Emily Nagoski, she talks about this book being the prescription needed for the diagnosis that we're giving of burnout. Which I love because, you know, it does. She starts in the beginning with patriarchy and misogyny and works her way right through it to the end where what can we do about burnout. And so one of the things we've talked about, obviously, is self-compassion for us and how to navigate some of these, becoming the identity that we want to have and the creativity with what we want to spark. And I think sitting down and doing the work, like writing for me, I'm a writer, so being able to write things down. How do I see myself? You know, you might be surprised at what you perceive yourself as and what other people perceive you as. You know, you don't give yourself enough credit a lot of times. We don't do that. We're really good as women at doing that. We whip ourselves, you know, as she says. So looking into it and digging into it instead of saying, like, I'm such a failure or I don't do this right or I'm this or I'm that. You've got to stop because you're somebody and you're somebody important and we need to start being the change agents to end. I don't want to say we're never going to end burnout because it's always going to be there. But we have to be the change agents for stepping up and figuring this out better so we can give better care to the women that we serve and their families. So that's the answer and the boundaries. Yeah, and it requires having an honest conversation with yourself. Honest. It requires finding your voice, which is terrifying when your voice is alone in the wilderness and you're upsetting the balance of things. Why can't you just, or getting that judgment, that value judgment that people might be wanting to throw out at you. Like, you don't want to work hard. Oh, here's one that I've heard many people tell me. Maybe midwifery just isn't for you. That's bullshit. If you have ever been on the receiving end of that comment or somebody has looked at you kindly and gently and said, maybe this just isn't the work for you, they're gaslighting you. And you need to think very carefully about everything that comes out of that person's mouth because that's their trauma being placed on you. Right. Yep. We deal with a lot in this line of work. It's interesting, which is why we're talking about it. It needs to be talked about. It has to be talked about. We've got to stop accepting these value judgments on ourselves as being true. They're not true. They're not true. They're not true. And you know it in your gut when you hear those things that it's not true. But you question it. Maybe I'm not. Everybody else I'm looking at is just rolling with it. Why do I feel so different? Why is this not working for me? It's not you. You're seeing things clearly and you're wanting a change. That's what's going on. And you're enough. Trust yourself. If it doesn't feel right, it's not right. It's not right. And it's not that you don't want to work. And there are some really amazing midwifery practices around. We have some friends, Nick and I have friends that are still working in some great practices, which we hope to bring to you on this podcast. But I think they're the exception rather than the rule. Yeah. I think they are the exception. I'm so excited too that we want to find those practices, sit down with those practices, and have the real honest conversations. I think one of the things that we are going to find, I'm just going to throw out a prediction, is that they value their people, their midwives, over anything else. That they truly exemplify. They don't just have a mouthpiece that says our midwives are our number one assets. That they truly have found ways to make that a lived value within the practice. Right. Right. I agree. And you know, when you look on the job boards, you know whose practice is unstable. Because they're advertising for a new midwife every three to four months. And then there are some practices, and you and I talked about this, that hire very locally, under the radar, without ever posting anything. And so sometimes it can be a little bit harder, but definitely they're the ones. You definitely can see that on their page, right? And you're like, ooh, that's a red flag over there. Don't go near that practice. And it has great pay, and they say great hours. Great hours. But this is the third time that you've seen them post. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, they're cycling through for a reason. And then, yeah, you know, I'm going to throw this out there. I really am hoping I get in to talk to Charleston Birth Center, because they just seem to have a good thing going. They don't hire midwives that often. You don't see them on the board. I had the opportunity to interview at a few years ago and passed up, and I'm kicking myself for it. But I was finishing my family nurse practitioner, so it didn't work at the time. I want to talk to these practices that are stable, and their midwives seem like they're staying, and they're staying for the right reasons. Yes. And there's your team changes, right? We really need to bring them to the forefront and have the conversation about what they're doing, right? And so it gives you your voice, too. If you're out there saying, yeah, I love everything you're saying, but I don't even know where to start, that's part of why we want to bring these practices on and have the conversation, so that you can spark that creativity in yourself. Right. So you can take those ideas and find ways to implement them where you are. Right. That's what we're hoping, and that's what we're really – we're keeping our fingers crossed this podcast does good things for everybody. We're on to something, Mel, I think. We're on it. We want to be joyful. Yes. We're tired of being angry. I know. We're ready for joy. I want to be joyful. I'm perimenopausal, so things really piss me off. I love this phase, though, I have to say. Letting go, letting down all of those barriers really is so freeing. It really is so freeing to not give a fuck anymore. It worked for me just so recently with this newest boundary that I just made. It felt so good, and maybe we'll talk about it a little bit further down the road. Right now things are a little bit in flux. I don't feel like I'm in a place where I should be going into depth, but I did throw down some amazing boundaries, and it felt great. With no regrets, no explanation. That's my favorite part. I didn't spend the time or waste the energy explaining myself about anything because my sentence was a full sentence. Yes. Nicole and I, we have really been talking about that. That plays in burnout, too. You don't need to give an explanation. No. You don't. No is enough. Sorry, that doesn't work for me right now. How empowering is that? It's really fucking empowering, everybody, because that's what I did. That's all you need to say. No, sorry, that doesn't work for me. That doesn't work for me. Oh, and let me tell you, it will cause some shit. Yes, it does. People do not like it. They feel like they're owed an explanation. They're not owed anything. Unless it's written into a contract that you must provide a detailed explanation and you signed off on that, you don't actually owe anybody an explanation for jack shit. Let me ask this. Let me take it a step further. When a man says to you, no, I can't do that, people are like, okay, move on. Okay, moving on. When a woman says to you, no, I can't do that, they're like, why? Why? Why can't you do that for me? What's wrong with you? Even when it's another woman in the conversation. Right. We still feel like we're owed. Like still. My gosh, why can't you give me more? Yeah, why can't you give me more? Because I'm not. Because I'm not. Because I'm not. And let me tell you, the empowerment from this is huge. Huge. Try it. Try it. If you want to try one thing this week, try setting a boundary and see how that feels. It can be something really small. Really small. Really, really small. And you'll know it when it doesn't sit right with you. You get this little, like I get like a little in my stomach, like a little, you know, and my brain goes, you know, like second. If you have to second guess, that doesn't work for you. Right. You know what? How about pizza tonight? No, sorry. That really doesn't work for me. I'd rather have Chinese. And you know what? You can say that. Yeah. Yeah. When everybody is making that group order and you're the only one who doesn't want that, you can suggest the other thing that you actually want. Or just say, I'm going to order by myself. Right. I'm going to do my own thing. It's so empowering. It really is. It really is. And those little practice moments of empowerment build up when you start to see like, oh, they have reactions to what I said, but everybody was able to pick themselves up and keep going. You start to get that feedback into yourself that you can advocate for yourself. Right. You can figure out your boundaries, what you're comfortable with. You can do this. You can totally do this. And we're right here with you. We are right here with you. We're going to support everybody every step of the way with this. We are learning ourselves and we're putting it out there. We're not the masters of this. Absolutely not. So let me say, like, a lot of our texts are between each other. You know, like, I know when it was going through with Nicole, when she was going through this, I'm like, yeah, that's it. You can do it. No explanation. You don't need to. It's all good. She's like, I don't need to. I'm like, nope, I don't need to. So back and forth, we got each other on this. And find that person. Oh, you need to find your person. Yep. You're never alone. There's always somebody out there for you. We want to hear your burnout stories. And if anybody wants to be on the show, we'd love to have you on here and we can talk about it. What are you experiencing, you personally? Are you crying a lot? I know I was when I was in the depths of it. I was angry with my family all the time because I had zero bandwidth for whatever it was they were bringing to me because I was burned out. And the easiest people to take it out on is, unfortunately, your family. Yeah. Because you're not going to take it out on your patients, right? On your moms. Yeah. They bore the brunt of so much of my burnout. And I had the humility of going to them and saying, I'm so sorry that you had to go through that. But that's where mine would show up. Very short fuse. No bandwidth. Short fuse. That's what I would always say. I have no bandwidth for that. And it's such an honest thing to say. You're really putting it out there. Yep. So that's what we're going to – that's what we're aiming for. We want to hear from you. Yeah. And I hope that this conversation was a little more – Makes sense. Well, I don't know. I don't know if anything we say or say makes sense. I hope it wasn't just your typical magazine article burnout conversation. I mean, I really hope that you're able to take something and be able to use that as food and energy for moving forward. Because you matter. You guys really do matter. You matter. We love you guys. We love midwifery. Oh, we do. We love it. Yes. We love midwife. Love our practice. All right. So stay – I think we're going to wrap this up for today. And we will be back to you next week. So until then – Another great topic that we haven't identified yet, but – Yep. No, we haven't. And that's okay, because we're living joyfully right now, and we're making a boundary around that. And again, Emily Nagoski, who also wrote Come As You Are, we'll talk about that in another show. I love – yes. I would love to have a conversation with her, but I'm thinking out of our reach. I don't think so. I don't think so. We'll meet her. You know what? When the universe decides it's time for us to – she'll come into our life, right? I recommend Come As You Are to so many of my patients. It's just a little extra plug. If you're not aware of that book, please get this one, which I don't have and I need. Yep, burn it out. But also Come As You Are. It's amazing. Oh, it's so good, because we're just on our heads as women. It's where we live in this friggin' brain. Yeah. Okay. So stay good and come back next week. Bye, everyone. We love you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.