RK: Hello, and welcome to My MARS Mantra podcast. I'll be talking to changemakers from many parts around the world working in disasters and development. Today, I have one of my favourite colleagues who I worked in, Tsunami Reconstruction. Her name is Ines Smith, and Ines has been a dear colleague who I'm still in touch even after over 20 years So, hi, Ines. How are you?
IS: Good. Thank you so much. Nice to see you.
RK: Nice to see you, too. Ines Smith is a very, very touching colleague. She taught me about social inclusion, and Ines is a gender and women's rights activist. She also works in climate activism these days, so we'll hear Ines' stories and what motivates her. So, Ines, to start with, when did you get this idea, this inkling where you want to work? When did it all start?
IS: It's a little bit hard to say because I come from a working-class family from Italy, and they were extremely kind and supportive parents.
At the same time, I was completely in the dark about possibilities for future life. People, especially women, became teachers, wives, and so I couldn't see where to go, really.
RK: Because you didn't want to be a teacher or a wife.
IS: Well, exactly. Especially, I didn't want to be a wife, not particularly. But one thing I did feel, and it was I needed to go, I needed to get away. I was living in a very small place near Rome. And I think the problem with the place wasn't that it was small, but it was that it wasn't even a traditional place. It wasn't a little village with a community. It was, you know, all of us were migrants, if you like. And again, we had a lot to offer, but everybody...
RK: What do you mean by migrant? You are Italian!
IS: Yes, but we were all coming from different parts of Italy. Oh, I see. So you were living in the outskirts of the capital city. Exactly, exactly. And that meant that all of us had the same limitations in terms of we hadn't been exposed to opportunities, to possibilities out there. So from a very young age, I had this sense that I wanted to get away. I wanted to see other stuff. And it took me a while. So I took the opportunity when I came to study English in the UK and various events took place. And suddenly, I had an opportunity to go back and study and I decided it wasn't strange that I decided to study anthropology because it was that kind of romantic idea that I was going to encounter other cultures and other societies.
And so that's where it started. And then, of course, by studying anthropology, I did my fieldwork in Indonesia and loved it. I loved it being there, knowing other people, learning from them, and learning to be by myself and looking after myself.
And I was particularly concerned at that time for what women had the ability to do. And I was in the part of Indonesia where I was, women did enjoy a degree of personal freedom. And they were amazing. The women...
RK: Which part of Indonesia?
IS: This was in Java, in West Java. And I found it... Before I went, everybody warned me, say, you know, there's a traditional society, particularly the Muslim society. And but I don't think I've ever had so much fun. The women were very, very naughty. When I was chatting with them, they would teach me very naughty words in the local language Sundanese. And then if visitors came, then they kind of made me say these words.
And everybody was laughing. So much for the women modest and all of that. And following that, I decided that I would like to turn that after I finished my PhD to do work that gave me the possibility to work with women and for women. And my feminism was reinforced by seeing how strong and how fantastic women could be given the opportunity, given education, given a little bit of space, taking away the threat of the risk of violence.
And that was what pushed me. I mean, I still remember soon after starting my work with the international NGO,4:58 you are familiar with visiting Makassar, and I went to speak with a bunch of very young women, all married already, lovely, very cheerful and everything. And I was talking to them. And I asked about GBV, gender-based violence, and I said, what do you think, do you experience that? And what is it like? And they all burst out laughing.
And I was really quite surprised and I didn't understand. And then they had to explain to me that my question was a little bit silly, because of course, they knew GBV, you know, they all had experienced being part of life, particularly as married women. And that was something that reminded me what I was there to do.
RK: You know, you mentioned about Indonesia, and that's where I met you. And you talked about women's rights, but you are the one who exposed me to the rights of the people who didn't have any land, because, as an architect, I was there to rebuild houses for people who lost their houses. And I was focusing on the design and, you know, if there's a land, we build it. And then you took me one day and you were talking to people who were landless, they were renting. And that really opened up my eyes about how we are so much focused on delivering things, not looking deep into problems.
Can you tell us more about this overall idea about feminism? Is it all about women?
IS: I think in a sense, it is about women, because it's about, you know, it's about understanding the relations that are the root causes of inequality between men and women, but not only in a kind of, you know, this kind of duality, but any of any gender, and understanding that behind it, behind it, there is power.
And when we understand that, then we can we can start thinking what needs to change, what needs to change our relations of power. And of course, that means having a bit more of a of a complex understanding and also set of actions, because it's not only about, as I said, about men and women, but also understanding what we now call intersectionality. But what are all the other characteristics of an individual or a group that determine the position they have in society, the benefits and entitlement they benefit from, and the disadvantages and forms of discrimination they experience, this kind of composite mosaic that makes us who we are in society.
And I think that's a very important thing to remember, in order, as you said, not to simplify things when we act.
RK: I remember when I was working in the humanitarian
sector, sometimes when people look at people like you, gender advisors, even within the colleagues, oh, again, she here she comes again, people have this very tunnel vision that, you know, women and gender advisors, they're going to be women, they're going to be talking about women's rights, but that's not the case.
It is about marginalized part of the society. And you mentioned that you came from a migrant family background. Thank you for explaining that to us in a simple way.
Now, I would like to ask you about your personal experience. Tell us more about your work. What did you like? What story stays with you?
IS: I've been extremely lucky because I've had I've worked most of my professional life in Asia and I had the opportunity to travel. I had the opportunity of meeting extraordinary people. And what stays with me, indeed, particularly the women in communities that gave so much, sort of local leaders, even leaders of the sort of religious group or leaders of a small women's group that had the individual courage and initiative and creativity to achieve a lot in their own context.
And that was indeed a privilege and also the privilege to meet colleagues who have taught me a lot, particularly given the obstacles they had in their work.
And you mentioned this question about people working on gender equality being perceived as a burden or somebody who also created trouble. And when we were in Aceh, I had a really fantastic colleague. Her name is Nana and from Aceh and we worked as counterparts. And the thing that used to shock me each time, but also irritate me was that if we went together, even just enter the room or went into a meeting together, the group of particularly the group of expats, the group of colleagues would look at me and speak to me.
But she was the expert. She knew the context. She knew the situation of men and women. And that was something that I found so irritating. And it took a while to make people understand if they ever did understand that we had different kind of knowledge, but equally important. In fact, our knowledge is much more relevant to what we were trying to do. And it was partly thanks to her that we noticed that so many more women had died in Aceh.
And it was partly because we often were in cars and in our conversation with the drivers, the driver would look very sad, very troubled, and she would start talking to him. And he would say, oh, my mother died. My sister died and my auntie died. And after a while, we began to see a pattern. I was fortunate enough to have contacts at and not so near, but at a demographic institute in Java.
We managed to get some researchers to do some research and demonstrate it absolutely clearly that for what was concerned for every man who died, three women have died.
RK: And after the tsunami,
IS: After the tsunami. And, you know, as I said, it was mostly thanks to our observation and our conversation with people that we discovered that.
RK: But why? Why more women died?
IS: They some people seem to think that is one reason, you know, they used to say, oh, they couldn't swim.
And in fact, that's one reason. In fact, in Vietnam, there are organizations that teach women to swim because of the frequency of floods in Vietnam. But that's only one reason. And it is indeed the fact that the girls, for modesty and other reasons, don't learn to swim as often as boys. Other reasons are in that particular a very contextual and that particularly in that particular instance, the tsunami was on a Sunday and a lot of the men were either away in the city at the back, not on the sea, doing errands, the family of the fishermen were on the sea. And they, interestingly enough, survived. And the women were not only at home, but in the house, they were cooking, they were cleaning. And so that was one reason where they were at that time. The second reason was that women very often in Aceh and in so many places don't speak the national language, but they only speak local language. They very rarely learn information that comes, for example, through the radio and they never heard about tsunami.
That meant that when the sea at first withdrew, they rushed to the beach because it was they'd never seen anything like that. And when the second wave came, they were killed.
IS: So that's part of the reason that the final reason is that because they were there and because, you know, that's what women do, I suspect many of the people I heard is that women try to save children and looking for the elderly parents around. And by the time they had figured who was where, it was too late.
RK: Mm hmm. And one one thing is that about your happy stories, I want to hear it's very sad. But how do you feel happy to achieve, address these challenges when you're on ground?
IS: I think if those and I mean. I think in a sense, there are other stories which are not sad, but irritating, but let's leave them aside. There are loads of happy stories that, I mentioned already the courage and the initiative of so many women in communities and in in colleagues among the colleagues, but also to see how little it takes for women to blossom.
And particularly if you give women the opportunity to work together, to come together. At the moment, I work a lot in Myanmar and the organisation that I work for now does a lot of the approaches often to support women in creating groups, for example, in in the in the IDP camps, in the internally displaced camps in the west of Myanmar, in Rakhine, where Rohingya communities have been since 2011. And the women benefit enormously from being together.
And what you're going to assume gives it very little, but they come together and they study, they teach each other the skills that one has and the other doesn't. But also they organise ways of influencing others. For example, if they have a complaint for the camp management committee or for the one of the age that they work together, they organise together, they really plan little campaigns to bring about change in their circumstances. And that's wonderful to see, when that works, really.
And so that's that's certainly a source of satisfaction and happiness for me. Yeah.
RK: Yes. And I think that you mentioned about your colleague in Indonesia, how she taught you. And that's what really made me attract to work with you, because you are always together with another colleague and you make sure that that colleague is leading. And through your connections, I met colleagues in other countries, which is really a very good example to feel satisfied, to pass your skills and knowledge.
And the organisation I work with now is as a consultant. She's given me this role is often that often entails a bit of mentoring on the younger colleagues. It's not that I know more than them, they probably have more experience of other types, but perhaps I've been around for a little bit longer. And again, that's another pleasure, to see how they grow in their confidence and they grow in initiative. And that's really great.
And there is a couple of them that we are going to hear their stories. Absolutely. I mean, although the situation in Myanmar is so tough, so different, that requires a very special courage, as you mentioned.
IS: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, at the moment, I'm very involved in climate activism and sometimes I I find myself having to have to step outside my comfort zone, while demonstrating. when I feel afraid, because I do feel afraid at times, I do have to remember that what I risk is nothing compared with my friends and colleagues in Myanmar risk when they stand up for their rights or even in the most mild way possible.
And yet they risk their lives, they risk imprisonment for a long time. I mean, you know, my what I risk is, yeah, maybe I can be arrested, but arrested. But even if I am very often, it's a night in a cell and a fine. So I can put up with that.
RK: Let's talk about your climate activism. So when did it all start?
IS: Part of the work that we do. You are very aware that you invest their communities, invest time and energy and money in improving the situation. And then slam comes a flood and you know, and it's, you know, all gone. And but then I had been away for a little while, particularly in Myanmar. And I noticed when I came back, this was twenty nineteen and just before not a year before Covid, there was a lot of talk of this thing called particularly Extinction Rebellion.
And I the word rebellion caught my imagination. And so I started talking to people and I realized that it made a lot of sense to me what they were saying, that, it's very late what is happening in the climate emergency. Really, we are risking not having enough time. And by then, of course, not only I have children, but also grandchildren. And to think of what my legacy to them is, whatever I do as an individual, what am I leaving them of this world?
RK: Tell us more about this Extinction Rebellion, because we hear the word, but many of us don't know what it is. Is it about climate justice or changing behaviours?
IS: It's a really good question, actually, because it is a movement, a movement based on nonviolent direct action. And those are the key word is a nonviolent movement, but based on direct action. I mean, it's brilliant to write letters to your MP or vote the appropriate way, but it doesn't work. Nothing happens. So direct action means demonstration, theatricals, occupying places in a way that addresses directly, most directly the polluters and those who are responsible from governments and fossil fuel companies, etc.
Unfortunately, very often this also means disrupting people's lives and time and daily preoccupations. And I found that quite difficult.
RK: Because it's not sustainable to carry on like that.
IS: Exactly. So and we continue, we continue, we continue. I think we have achieved quite a lot in terms of shifting what they call the Overton window. You know, there is a lot more awareness and research shows that many more people are now concerned with the climate emergency. And I don't I'm not saying that it's all thanks to Extinction Rebellion, but at least in part.
RK: Yes, everyone knows the problem.
IS: And I'm glad that you mentioned climate justice, because when I first joined Extinction Rebellion, it was it was not very explicit about the North-South kind of inequalities, perhaps because as the kind of theory that in campaigns you have to be very, very focused and started to talk about inequality, global inequality would be very confusing for people. But actually, now it's a lot better on this. And there is quite strong strand of Extinction Rebellion that works specifically on the relationship between debt and climate.
RK: What does debt and climate mean?
IS: So I think it's very, it's very simple. Countries in the global South who have the debt to repay their debts simply don't have anything left to attend to the climate emergency.
RK: Debt from where?
IS: Debt, global debts from banks, from the society. And so not only that, but actually the need for repayment. They are massive in comparison what aid comes into the global South. But also, they have to constantly open the door to investors, to investors in fossil fuel mostly.
And so it is impossible for them, doesn't have the resources for to protect themselves for continual, continual, continual extraction of fossil fuel. In DRC, they're just selling, you know, blocks, they call them, of land in very precious natural environment because there is a lot of gas and oil. And they can't afford not to, to allow investors to come in.
RK: Because they need money.
IS: So, yeah. Yeah, and what I found in Extinction Rebellion also, very interesting, because it's a very, very mixed bunch of people of all ages. Apparently, the slight majority are women and quite a number of older people like me. I don't know. I mean, why? I suspect it's because partly, well, we are the cause and we really, but also because we have less to lose than younger people than us. You know, if I, you know, I'm arrested or if I, I'm in a public disruption, I'm not, I'm likely to be better treated than a young man, particularly, particularly a black man, for example.
And and so why not? You know, why not me? If it's easier for me, I'm happy to do it.
RK: Great. So tell us about the happiest memory of from Extinction Rebellion or working overseas.
IS: Okay, one each, I suppose. I think some of my work in Myanmar has really been full of satisfactions, you know, working, I remember doing a workshop in Kachin in the east part. And people in Kachin are really tough. They are very proud.
And the men, you know, they have lived in an area of conflict for, it's the oldest conflict on the planet in the world. So that's what they know. They are tough. We had quite a few, we had a training, we called it gender leadership program to make people want to be leaders in changing gender relations. And at the beginning, they were not having it. And I was a little bit nervous, they're just going to be, and also they were forever going back.
Oh, but our culture, oh, but other culture tells us this. And gradually, gradually, gradually, it was possible to show them that if men can change and concede some of the power to others, to women, to the children, to the elderly, and to even people from other ethnicities, everybody gains. Everybody, you know, because you have more social cohesion, and that opens the way to peace. And also, we were trying to explain the need for men themselves to care for themselves, to acknowledge that they were suffering from trauma and to acknowledge that they needed care.
And so the combination of two things, I began to see not everybody, but some of the men making that shift. And that was really fantastic for me. It was really good.
RK: You know, good that you mentioned, because these days, people are talking about masculinity, what it is to be like men. And sometimes, you know, in the past, the trend was that international aid agencies or development agencies, we are always talking about women's empowerment, and men were feeling like they're left behind.
IS: It's important not to.
That's interesting.
RK: And any other stories from Extinction Rebellion?
IS: Extinction Rebellion. I mean, last day, did you really get arrested? Oh, yes, yes, a couple of times. Yeah, just doing simple things like sitting on a road and being told to get up, and you don't get up, and they take you away. And I thought was interesting. You have to be very careful, because the officers that arrested me were very kind. But we also know that the police is an institution, which is not kind to others, and particularly, you know, people from minorities.
So you have to keep your distance a little bit. But I was glad to have that experience. And I was glad to see that I could. Yeah, there was nothing too much to it. And I received what I really appreciated. Was it in Oxford or London? No, in London. And the organization like Extinction Rebellion, but not only Extinction Rebellion, Just Stop Oil and others are very well organised in providing support. So for example, we have a system by which when you are arrested, we inform a group of people what we call the back office.
And they will make sure that there is somebody waiting for you when you come out, because usually you are released at night. And so, you know, you don't want to go wandering around two o'clock in the morning on your own in the middle of nowhere. And so it's always lovely to see someone outside waiting for you with a bar of chocolate and, you know, the money for a taxi or whatever it takes.
RK: You sound like it's a really good reward. A bar of chocolate!
IS: But it's learning. And I've learned so much from friends and colleagues. And there is amazing people that with extraordinary knowledge, they give their time, you know, lawyers, architects, technicians of any sort, artists. And so you feel in a community that cares and they care for us now, for all of us. And they have this idea that we have a responsibility for those who will come in the future. And I like that. I like that.
RK: I'm really glad to hear that story, because, you know, normally you see all these big leaders going to all these cops and having a lot of big talk.
So, yeah, I'm not being cynical, but we hear lots of talk going on. But how do you connect the work you are doing and how do you connect the leaders to do something really concrete?
IS: I mean, you sound a bit you're sighing. I think I think talking takes you that far, but I can see that sometime you have to take different approaches. I don't believe in cop. And yet there are individuals that individuals that by being a COP or by being disappointed by COP have become more militant in their action.
RK: Frustrated.
IS: Yes. And also there are in the in the form of systems like in Parliament, there are people who can do both, you know, from people in the Green Party and other parties in the Lords. There are a couple of people who are incredibly supportive. And and so they they are people with power who can achieve quite a lot by using their power. You know, even famous people, you know. I was watching a program on TV a couple of nights ago where Chris Packham, what would you call it? Conservation person who was often on television.
He had a program asking himself, is this the time I go over that threshold of promoting sort of the protection of nature, et cetera? Through my influence, through the radio, through the TV, or is it the time to to to actually do something illegal but never violent? Of course. Interesting.
RK: So how do you keep yourself going in this? Because it's quite tough and to keep your hope alive. What is your inner resilience or MARS mantra?
IS: It's finding hope and and not despair. It's really important. And sometimes you feel really quite wobbly, you know, and you think nothing is changing. What are we going to do? You know, another fire, another flood in the recent floods in Libya and, another conflict. And again, you know, the relationship between climate and conflict is not unclear. And I think there are for me, there are different. I I learn from others. There are people who have a lot to teach about hope.
And particularly in what we do, we always say. It's through action that you find hope, because hope is not about crossing your arm and say, oh, God, I hope this happens or not. Hope is about saying, I'm going to invest my time and energy because then I can change things. And then that's what they call active hope. That's where one finds strength.
RK: I remember my colleagues told me that. Are you one of those NATOs? They used to joke, no action, talk only NATOs.
I never heard that. I like that.
IS: So you are the activist, Ines Smyth. Thank you for sharing your stories, Ines. It's a pleasure to have you here.
My pleasure. Thank you so much.
