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On average, women globally earn 23.3% less than men, and it will take 140 years for women to achieve equal representation in positions of power. Sustainable Development Goal 5 aims to achieve gender equality. Gender inequality refers to unequal opportunities, treatment, and perceptions of girls, boys, men, and women. The Gender Equality Index shows that the Netherlands scores better than Hungary in terms of gender equality. Hungary allows exceptions for direct discrimination against women, which goes against EU law. The Netherlands also has gender inequality, with women earning 12.7% less than men. The podcast discusses the experiences of gender inequality, particularly in Hungary and the Netherlands, and aims to raise awareness and find solutions. The special guest, Alava Kusla, shares her experiences of gender inequality in different countries. In the Netherlands, she does not experience disadvantages as a woman, but in Malaysia, there is more gender inequality. On average, women earn 23.3% less on the labour market globally than men. At this rate, it will take 140 years for women to be represented equally in positions of power and leadership in the workplace. Sustainable Development Goal 5, also called SDG 5, is to achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls. This is an important SDG as it is not only a human right, but it is also necessary to create a peaceful and sustainable world. Welcome to Breaking Barriers, a podcast that dives into complexities of gender inequality leading to inspiring conversations. Each episode, we talk about the stories of individuals and how they experience gender inequality. On top of this, we share insights to work to a more inclusive world together. Before we dive into the podcast, it is important to define the term gender inequality. Gender inequality refers to unequal opportunities, treatment and or perceptions of girls and boys, or men and women. Even though this is a worldwide problem, there are big differences in gender inequality per country. Today, we will take a closer look at gender inequality in Hungary in comparison with the Netherlands. When looking at the GENDER EQUALITY INDEX, we see that the Netherlands has a score of 77.9, while Hungary has a score of 57.3. This gender equality index is a score from 1 to 100 based on equality between men and women. When the score is 100, there is a full equality between men and women. So looking at this index, the Netherlands is scoring better on gender equality. However, in Hungary, this score has risen 3.1% since 2022, while it has only risen 0.6% in the Netherlands. The biggest difference between these countries is the equality in power. In the Netherlands, this has an index of 72.7, while this is only 26.2 in Hungary. In Hungary, direct discrimination is not allowed. However, there are some situations where it is not seen as a violation. For example, the situation can be reasonably explained. These exceptions are not for discrimination against ethnicity, race, colour or even nationality. It is only for women. This is against European Union law to have exceptions for sex and maternity leave. However, the Hungarian law allows exceptions even in cases of direct discrimination against women. The EQUAL TREATMENT ACT is a rule that allows some exceptions in employment discrimination cases. This rule was a broad and not very clear. But in 2017 they changed it and a new version started on the 1st of January in 2018. The important change is that the new rule now applies only to the hiring process and not in a situation during employment. This way a company can refuse to hire someone based on, for example, their sex. The government of Hungary is taking some action. They requested support from some European Commission for technical assistance. They use this technical assistance to improve the access to the labour market for women. This way they want to remove the gender employment gap. Another thing the government of Hungary has done is implement the WOMEN FORLY law. This happened in 2023. This is a program for women only to retire early. In this program the women are allowed to receive an early pension after taking care of the house and children after at least 40 years. However, by implementing this law the government encourages women to stay at home and not find a job. The women also receive a lower pension from this than what they would receive if they get a paid job. They also encourage men to stop doing unpaid work in the house if they cannot receive this early pension. On top of this, the Hungarian government only gives this pension to women who are born as a girl. In their words, if they do not find it fair for someone who lives as a man their whole life, men transform to a woman only to receive the pension. This is all very different than in the Netherlands. The Netherlands has been the third most eager country in Europe since 2010. However, when looking at the salary of women in comparison with the men's salary, it is seen that women earn on average 12.7% less in the Netherlands. Today we will talk about experiencing gender inequality as a young woman and how this can affect you. We will also look at the differences in gender inequality between countries in Europe, specifically the Netherlands and Hungary. Together we do this with our special guest, Alava Kusla, who I will introduce in a later moment. So after listening to this podcast, you know the differences between gender inequality in Hungary and the Netherlands and why these differences appear. You will also know how a young woman experiences this in her daily life and what you can do about gender inequality. This podcast is for anyone who wants to know more about gender inequality and how women experience this. It is for young professionals who are just getting into the labour market, for business owners to be aware of the situation, so this can be prevented, and for college and university students who are preparing to go into the work field. With streaming this podcast on Spotify, we hope to reach the right audience. Today our special guest, Alava Kusla, will join us. Alava is a young woman who is originally from Hungary. She moved to Malaysia and after to the Netherlands. Now she is doing her internship for International Development Management Advisory in ITEF. I invited Alava to talk about her experiences and knowledge on gender inequality in Hungary and the Netherlands. Alava has a lot of experiences, as she lived in several countries in her past, where she has experienced gender inequality in a different way. If you want to learn more about experiencing gender inequality, Alava is the one to talk to. Today we are here with our special guest, Alava Kusla. Alava, do you want to introduce yourself? Sure, thanks for having me. My name is Alava Kusla, as you already said. I am 23 years old, currently in my last year of IDM, also at Van Halen, and I am undergoing my internship at this moment at Fairtrade in the Netherlands. Yeah, very good. And where is this organization? It is based in Itzhaven. You had a good time there. Yeah, it has been a great six months. I am in my last ten weeks. So it is going to be the closing of period really soon. Ten days. Nice. First I am curious to know how this is in your work field, the gender inequality. Do you notice anything about it? I am currently working in an office that is built up of mostly women. So we have around 15 women and maybe around 6 men. Okay. It is a bit different. But this factor has also been addressed at my workplace. And they have said that when they are hiring new people, they will try to get more men in our office. Because it is very women-dominated. Yeah, you don't notice any gender inequality there. Everyone is very sweet and caring and open. It is a very balanced, I feel, workplace. Because everyone sees each other as equal. And the men also feel fine with all those women, you think? I guess sometimes they might feel a bit outnumbered. Yeah. And it might get a bit difficult in some occasions with the words they use. But I don't think they have any issues with it. Good to hear. And do you experience any disadvantages as a woman in general in the Netherlands? In your daily life here? No. Not in your work surroundings? No, not in my work surroundings. That's good to hear. And when you came to the Netherlands, of course a few years ago, when was that again? 2019. Oh, that's a long time ago. 2018. How did you experience this? I came from a very different culture then. Because I moved from Malaysia. And there you can definitely see the gender inequality. Because men are still allowed to work and women stay at home. Yeah. And coming from Asia to Europe is a very big difference in general. But here I just felt very accepted and welcome. There was no having to worry about men discriminating you on the street here. Because everyone is quite in their own world. And not really focused on one another. And you did notice that in Malaysia a lot? Oh yeah. Did men have an opinion about what you did or how did you notice it? Especially being a white female there. Yeah. It's very different. You get a lot of catcalling. Yeah. A lot of people pulling up to you, asking you to come into their car. Demanding. They don't see you as equal. They see you as something to have next to them. As a way of showing other people how well off they are. Oh, that's a big difference from here then. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Although it's fun. Did you go to school there? Yeah, I went to a private school. Did you notice anything there? No. It was mostly looking at the cultural aspect. That I was very well off school. Yeah. So people would have personal drivers and expensive things. But for me, coming from that, I just went to class. But it didn't really bother me. But you definitely can see the difference between rich and poor there. I didn't really see it as much as I did there. So that way, in terms of equality, it's definitely more equal here than there. Like there, we also had to make room. Yeah. Maybe have that sort of job and not work in an office like I am now. Yeah. But it also depends on, you know, if you're coming from Europe to Malaysia, staying here you'd have a better job than a local, maybe. But I cannot have an opinion on that because, you know, I tend to go through the schooling system. But that's not what I've seen. How was the school there? Was it mainly women teachers? It was very equal beside, I feel. But I did subjects where I had male-dominated teachers. So I did geography. I was very male. And I did art. I was also a man. I did business. I was also another man. Okay. So I did very much male-dominated studies. But there were also, you know, equal amount of females. So the female also worked in the country? Yeah. So they were all, like, not exports. What do you call it? They weren't foreigners. No. They were. Yeah. Okay. And what did your parents do there? They also both worked? My father worked. My mom didn't work. Okay. Because she didn't want to. My mom was more, like, at home. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. And did you notice anything there, how they treat the women? Yeah. You noticed that? Yeah. Did they treat them differently? Not with equality? Yeah. It's, like I said, it's very male-dominated. So the women, you know, even if you would see them on the highway, it would be the man sitting in the front of the motorcycle, and the woman would be on the back with the kids. Yeah. With the kids. So she would not be driving. Yeah. Yeah. It was really, like, man works, woman looks after the kids, cooks food, stays at home. Okay. And then, do you remember anything about Hungary? How it was over there? I was only there till I was very young. Yeah. Till I was three years old. But I did go back in summertime. And I guess if I would take my experience of going around, you know, going into cafes or things like this, I do see that there is a balance. But I also do know from my family, who my cousins have studied there, they went to university, that there's a very high percentage of people, both male and female, who actually leave the country after they get their education. Yeah. Because the system is corrupt. So you're not going to make a decent living in Hungary. A lot of young people leave the country. Yeah. So that's also what's really hard to talk about. It's people from about maybe 40 plus that are still around, but everyone in their 20s leaves. Okay. So you will not see someone young, unless they're taking a summer job working in a cafe. Yeah. Mostly it would be a summer job. If you have an education, you're going to leave. My cousins stayed. They don't have the money to leave. But one of them is doing engineering, and I'm not exactly sure what my other cousin does. We don't know. We don't know. But even being a female, she has a very big job in Hungary. She just doesn't get the pay that she deserves, because, you know. Do you get paid less than men over there? Do you know that? I don't know. I don't think so. I just think they're generally both paid not enough for what they're doing. Yeah. And there's not enough money in businesses and companies. Yeah. And do you know, I don't know how this is in your family, but is everybody working there, or are there people staying at home? My mom stays at home. Your mom stays at home, of course. And from your family, who lives in Hungary? My grandmother and I have cousins and aunts living there, like aunts, uncles. But I have a very little connection with my uncles. And my aunts I haven't talked to in years. But I do know that my family on that side do have their own fishing company. Okay. But that still doesn't make enough money. No. My other side of the family there, they're working with Audi. So they have pretty good income. Yeah. I know that his wife also works with Audi. Okay. My uncle's wife, they both work with Audi. So the woman in your family also works? Yeah. Mostly apart from my mother. Okay. And is that how you also experience this? If you are there, does the woman also work? Or are they maybe staying at home? I think they're definitely working because they need to, you know, put food on the table. It's not easy. She only has like one pair of tassels, for example. But they all work? Yeah. My mom, she has this interior design. So she does work? Yeah, out of home. Yeah, yeah. So she has worked in the past in Hungary as a bookkeeper. But that was still in like the Soviet times. Okay. So she was making like very little money. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Thank you. And do you notice any differences if you go to Hungary, if you compare it to the Netherlands right now? Focus on gender inequality? Yeah, I think here they're quite open. Like I would not get discriminated there because I, you know, I don't feel that. I mean, maybe if you're Jewish you might have a different experience than if you're local. Yeah. But I definitely do see how – I don't live in a very rich area, so I live where a lot of homeless people are. Yeah. And, how would you say, nicely? Travelers. Yeah. So I do see how they treat their wives, and it's very outlined. Yeah. So that is something I do see. So in that way I do see the inequality because it's here. I think I'm going to treat it like I would with her. Yeah. So you think it's also kind of because of the wealth. Oh, definitely. Yeah. It's also fun. The money is going to the wrong places. Yeah. If we talk about the index score, the index score is a score from 1 to 100, 100 being 100% equal between men and women, and 0 being 100% unequal. And then we found online that the Netherlands has a score of 77.9, while Hungary has a score of 57.3. Do you think this is a – do you think this is how you feel as well? Yeah, I definitely feel the Netherlands is being higher. 77. I would have expected it to be in the 80s, maybe, like 80s. It's the third best country of Europe now. Yeah. So nobody's hungry at the moment. No, but I do think Hungary is pretty low, but that's expected because it's a little poorer. We still have our own currency as well. And my experience, I definitely know I'm not going to work there because I know I don't get paid enough. Yeah. And that's also what the young generation thinks. They don't leave. They don't get paid enough. And men and women don't get paid enough, is that right? Yeah. Everyone is pretty poorly paid. Yeah. And do you agree with the number, the 57.3? I think it should be lower. Lower? Yeah. And why do you think that? Because I feel like from what I've seen, women are definitely not treated as equal there. Yeah. Especially also because you cannot be exactly open about, you know, your sexuality there. Yeah. And also getting rejected. Yeah. And I do know for a fact that if a woman expresses herself too much in that way, she will be blacklisted. And I don't believe that's the case for men. Yeah. So I do know someone who has been blacklisted and moved here. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's right. There's also a new rule I read online that has been implemented in 2023, so it's really new, that if you are a woman, but only if you're born as a woman or born as a girl, then you're allowed to receive a pension if you've been a caretaker for more than 40 years. But if you're a man and you stayed at home, if you're a stay-at-home father, you don't receive this pension. Okay. So it's kind of a way to encourage the woman to stay at home. Yeah, and men to work. And men to work. That's what I would expect from Orban. Yeah. And even if you pay for the pension, it's not going to be a lot. So I know my grandmother, she is now also with her pension, but all of her pension goes to the care home that she's staying in. Yeah, without the payment. So even though she earned her money, all the money she earned is now for the care home. Yeah. So she has barely any money left. Yeah, and she did have a job. Mm-hmm. Yeah. She worked as a manicurist. Yeah, nail technician. Yeah, so then you get even more pension. Yeah. This is less than what one would receive if they were to stay at home. So I don't know what encourages a stay-at-home decision. Yeah. Okay. Do you think there should be done more about this problem? Is there an opportunity for them to do that? I don't think there's any opportunity, because Orban will not be de-elected. The people in Budapest are very open-minded, but then you get the people in the countryside, who are a lot more foundational and following what he says and does. They don't see the negatives. The people in the city, they see more in the countryside. Yeah. So even if you would have a group of students that would say, oh, we need more benefits, or we need more equal rights, or we need to approve every sexuality, it's still going to get shut down. Yeah, because most of the people disagree because of the countryside. Yeah. Because you have the big cities, but they're mostly student-based. But then Hungary is pretty big and mostly built up on the countryside. Yeah. The biggest city you might know is just Budapest. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know the city. But, no. Orban, he really gets his way with the older generation, and that's what's left in Hungary after everyone moves away. Yeah. Oh, yeah, of course, the problem as well. Yeah. And can you think of anything that they could do now? Yeah, deal with Orban. Yeah. That's all that's going to happen. If you put them in this situation. Sure. But I don't think there's much that can be done. I already think it's great that there is the 2023 discrimination thing, and that women won't get paid. Yeah. Obviously, that was not the case. Yeah. But I do think there should be more done. As a matter of fact, will that happen? Because even if the EU and the other members take Hungary, they might say, no, we're not going to do that, and then leave the EU. Yeah, I think they're going to leave it. I don't think anytime soon, because they need the EU for benefits and everything. Yeah, to give you that possibility that Orban says, oh, I'm going to leave now. Okay. So you think he's a cause of all of this as well? Yeah. Do you have anything else to add to this? Do you want to say about it? I think it's very sad that in life, not just Hungary, but other countries, that men and women are not treated equally. Yeah. Luckily, I have a dad who earns money and can bring me here. Yeah. But if it would have been different, then I guess I would have felt the effects more. Yeah. So I'm privileged. But if I would not have been so privileged, then it would have been different. Yeah. I get it, yeah. That's good that you're here. It's pretty good to me. Okay, well, I want to thank you, Ola, for being here and talking with me about this. Yeah, of course. And I hope to speak to you soon. After talking to Anna, it became clear how it is to experience gender inequality in Hungary. In the death research we talked about in the beginning of the podcast, we saw that women work less than men and get paid less. However, Anna didn't really experience this. She told us that the Hungarian women she knows all work very hard. She said nobody gets paid enough, also men, but also the women. However, when mentioning the gender inequality in this, she said she was surprised at the low number for the Hungarian, and she even said she thinks it should be even lower. She experiences this gender inequality mainly in the streets, so she doesn't feel safe. On top of this, Anna told us some things about her past in Malaysia. Here she experienced gender inequality the most. After some more research, I found that gender inequality at the workplace is a big challenge for Malaysia. Women get discriminated, receive unequal payment, and are underrepresented in leadership positions. Looking back at the problem statement at the start of the podcast, we see that the problem of inequality in Hungary, focusing on the work field, is a problematic situation in Hungary. However, it is not as problematic as I thought after my death research. Anna said a lot of young people leave after school, so only very young or old people are left in Hungary. Left to this, the president isn't helping to this problem as well. Gender inequality is considered as a whipped problem, because it is a complex and multi-phased issue that has no simple solution. There are deeply rooted social norms, cultural beliefs, economic structures, and institutional practices. When addressing gender inequality, you need to address incriminating challenges, such as inequalities in education, healthcare, employment opportunities, or the representation in politics or other decision-making positions. On top of this, the problem is dynamic and evolves over time. It also has a history. Despite some progress, there is no clear solution or end in sight. To conclude everything mentioned in the podcast, Hungary is not scoring high on the gender inequality index. This means they are far away from achieving equality between men and women. On the work field, they are trying to make some changes in this. However, this is not working yet. Our guest Ala told us she doesn't notice this in the work field, however, she does not notice general inequality in Hungary. After this story, you might think, what can I do to help decrease gender inequality? You can educate yourself and others on this topic. When doing this, you raise awareness for your surroundings. When you notice someone being disadvantaged because of their gender, do something. If you are a man or a woman, it doesn't matter. Even just pointing it out helps getting bystanders' attention. You can also always donate to organizations working on gender inequality, for example, HIVUS.nl or UN. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast Breaking Barriers, with a special guest, Ala Haakonstelt. I hope you learned something today and we can be closer to an equal world for men and women together. I hope to see you next week in another episode of Breaking Barriers. Thank you.