Candice Episode Start

The speaker recounts a traumatic experience at church where a shooter entered and killed the bishop. They describe feeling a sense of discomfort before the incident and witnessing the shooting. They express feelings of shock and being frozen during the event. The speaker and others hid in the chapel until the police arrived. The shooter died in a shootout with the police. The shooter was mentally ill and had no connection to the church. The speaker reflects on their emotions and survivor's guilt. They received support from the church and their parents, including therapy. They struggle with guilt and replaying the incident in their mind. Okay, I think the best way to get into this is just to take you through my whole day. So this happened on a Sunday, and I arrived early to church because I was in charge of making a program for the main church service, and I remember getting to church and something just felt really weird. I felt uncomfortable and that something bad was going to happen, but I thought that was a weird thing to think. I'm like, I just got to church, I'm about to worship and feel the Spirit. I don't know why I'm feeling this way, and I never really struggled with anxiety or anything, so it felt really strange to me, but I pushed it aside and I went into the church building and I was printing all of the programs and just doing my thing, and then I finished early, and so I went and I sat in the foyer. In the church there's a foyer and a long hallway, and down that hallway there was a library where I was printing stuff, and then there was a bishop's office, and then it goes straight into the foyer. So I was sitting on the couch in the foyer waiting for people to come, and nobody was coming, and I was like, this is weird, but I was just lost in my thoughts, and then all of a sudden I heard the words, everybody get out, everybody get out, and it was so random and it shocked me. I was like, looking around, like who could possibly be saying that and why, like we're in church, and I looked up and it was a bishop from the previous service that was going on, and he was holding onto the door, and I realized within seconds, like, okay, he's serious, something is happening, but I couldn't really process what was happening, and as he was holding the door and telling everyone to get out, the door bust open, and I heard a gunshot, and he, the person who was shooting, shot his foot, and the bishop was trying to run out of the door where I was in the foyer, so he ended up running and falling in front of me, and then the man who was shooting shot him two more times right there in front of me. Oh my gosh. Yeah, and I remember just being frozen, like, it was the strangest thing because I, I could process what was happening, but at the same time, I was looking above, watching me, and I remember I was, like, stuck, frozen, not able to even say anything. I have always wondered, like, what would I say in one of those experiences, but I couldn't say a word. I didn't scream. I remember if I could reach out, I would be able to touch him. I remember wanting to, like, kick him or punch him, but I didn't do anything. I just was frozen, but I was watching from above. Right. And after, after that, somehow, I, like, I saw someone else from the hallway run into the chapel, and when I saw that, it snapped me out of it, and I ran in there as well, and we were hiding in the benches, and the next thing we hear is someone saying, the bishop's dead. The bishop's dead. Wow. And we decided to just wait in there. Because at this point, you're not sure where the shooter is, if he's shooting everyone. Yeah. You're totally unaware of what's happening. Yeah. We're all in there, freaking out, because we're not sure if he's going to come in there next. Like, we don't know his motive or anything. So, yeah, well, me and, I just remember me and this girl, we're staring at each other. I have no idea who she was, but we were, like, holding each other and, like, crying, and, like, I don't know if this is the last person I'm ever going to see. Right. Yeah. Potentially. Sure. And we were all, like, shocked, because it's, like, the place you're supposed to feel uplifted. Of course. Do you want me to keep going with the one else? I guess we'll start asking people. Okay. So, this happened. You're in the chapel, hiding under the pews, or hiding the best that you can. When did you realize you were safe? Um, I didn't, let me think, that's a good question. Um, we were staying in there and scared, and I didn't realize I was safe until we heard, wait, let me think about this. Did, like, cops come, ambulance, or, you know? Yeah, okay. Yeah, so, someone had called the cops, so we stayed in there under the benches until we knew that cops were there. So, the next thing we knew, like, cops with these huge guns were in there, and they were helping us to get out. Wow. Kind of evacuating you from the situation. Yeah. And you have, you do know what happened to the shooter, and I guess before we say exactly what that is, when, when did you find out what happened to the shooter? Was it that day? Was it pretty soon after? Was it a couple weeks after? Yeah, it was that day. So, I was the only, like, eyewitness to the whole thing, and I had left my purse in the foyer where the couch is, and so they found, the cops found my purse, and they were like, is there a Candace? Like, they looked in, saw my ID, and so I was like, that's me, like, what do you mean? Like, they asked, they started questioning me. They're like, okay, we need to know everything that happened, and as I was reporting to the detective, they got a call on the radio. They're like, the shooter called us, he's waiting for us, and I'm, like, freaking out and panicking. So, as I was talking, the shooter, I guess, was waiting for a shootout. So, as I was speaking, telling my story, I already knew he was about to die, because they're all going to get him. Wow. And so, so the shooter who, who shot this bishop died, suicide by cop. He called them in order to have a suicide, essentially, very common with mentally ill individuals. Yeah. And since you have learned a bit more, I guess I would say, about the shooter, nothing personal, but it's known that he was mentally ill. Yes. So, he had no affiliation with anyone at the church. He just used to go there when he was younger, and he didn't take his meds for a while, and I guess he just went to the one place he remembered and said he wanted to talk to whoever was in charge. So, it could have been anybody. Wow. What a sad situation. This bishop who, who leads the congregation, but it is a volunteer position, and it's unpaid. So, this isn't his career, this isn't, he's just, he's a dad or was a dad to six boys, is that right? Mm-hmm. And his life was taken, unfortunately, by somebody who is, who is really struggling mentally. And, and you witnessed it. That is crazy. I've never personally met somebody who's witnessed a murder before. And I guess my question with that is, how do you feel now? I mean, it's been over 10 years. Yeah. Since the incident. And how does it feel to talk about it? It's weird because it, it feels like it just never happened. I've gotten to the point where I don't think about it often, but when I sit and think about everything, like in this moment, it's bringing up emotion, thinking back to that moment. Right. Definitely. Is it, is it something that you have felt in your life that you have, I guess, a space to talk about it? Or is it something you've kind of kept under wraps? I mean, for instance, you read the news articles and whatnot, and it focuses a lot on the family, which of course it would. A woman lost her husband, sons lost their father, and so on. But you, you witnessed that really violent death. And so is it something that you feel in the past, because I know you're speaking on it now, so obviously to an extent you do, but that you've been able to say, this affected me and I feel because of what I saw? I feel like I was more worried about like, yeah, his wife and everyone that I didn't really want to hurt anyone's feelings by talking about it. I feel like, I think part of me just like, whenever I talk, I was so like, vague, I was like, yeah, I saw someone get shot. And that's it. Like, right. And then I kind of pretend like it wasn't really a thing that I went through. And I don't know why. I just like wanted to focus more on them. Right. Somebody who lost such a loved one. Did you afterward receive support from, I guess I could say like anyone of authority in your life? I mean, you're 18, but you're still young, you're living at home, I assume. And, you know, so did somebody, did a parent, did a counselor, you know, you hear about this happening at like school shootings, and usually there's some sort of provided support system. Did you feel like you had that? I feel like I did, since it happened at the church. The church was very quick that day, and they were like, we want you to come see someone, a therapist. And then the congregation I was in, everyone was very loving and supportive. They didn't really like say much, but they knew that I went through that. And my parents as well, they were very shooken up about it. I think it was, I'm not going to say as hard on them, but almost as hard because I, their daughter was there and could have gotten shot. So it was very hard on them. And they also went to therapy with me. That's amazing. You mentioned a little bit about, I think what the term would be considered as a survivor's guilt, a little bit of, oh, if I, you know, kind of in the moment, like, oh, I could have just kicked that guy in the shins, or I could have, you know, done something. Is that something that you struggle with today? Thinking that you didn't do enough, I guess. Yeah. That was honestly the hardest part about my whole experience. I didn't even care about seeing it. I just, I guess I still struggle with that. Hearing the phrase survivor's guilt, I don't know, brings up emotion that I do feel guilty sometimes. I know like logically it sounds ridiculous because there's nothing I could have done. I was like this huge man. With a gun. With a gun. Man or not, the person had a gun. Yeah. He's a huge man with a gun. I'm a scrawny little 18-year-old. I know I couldn't have done anything, but I was the only one there. I had no husband, no kids. He had a beautiful family. And so I carried guilt with me for years about that. I always would replay in my mind the whole situation and me jumping in front and getting shot so he could leave. Or I would check up on his kids and ask people, like, I don't really know their family, but I know people who do. So I'd be like, are they okay? I know I'd feel guilty for not just him, but all of his kids, his wife. I feel, sometimes I feel like I better do a lot with my life, or else it was for nothing. Because I feel like he saved me by warning me. Wow. Yeah. I know that you know this, and I know that everyone who just heard you speak on that, your feelings are very real and very valid, but there's no way that this bishop or God or anyone would have wanted you to do something. And the reason I say this is because you would have been shot, and frankly, he would have been shot too. He was the intended target, not some scrawny 18-year-old that happened to be going to the church. This man wanted to hurt someone in authority, and it would have caused two deaths and two families torn if that was the case. I mean, I know that you believe that. I know that you know that, but I sympathize with that survivor's guilt. I guess it really just comes back to having to look at child you, 18-year-old you, and forgiving that girl for what's in your own head thinking, oh, I didn't do enough. I didn't do what's right. And so what are some of the coping mechanisms that you used or still use, I guess, to do that, to forgive? Because it's yourself. You're your own biggest critic. No one else is saying that. I can guarantee the bishop's wife isn't thinking, I wish that girl did that. They're just grateful. They're grateful that no one else was hurt. And so what coping mechanisms, I guess, did you use and learn? I remember I journaled a lot, writing all my feelings down, and then realizing, okay, that's crazy. I'm valid for feeling that way, but I know that there's more that I need to do in life, and I know that everything you said, that it would be impossible for me to do anything, and yeah, it would have just been more death. So journaling, being able to, honestly, this seems weird, but I didn't let myself shy away from going to the building, the church building. Okay. So that was something that was really helpful for me to not run away, and I know not everyone needs to know, but for me, it was like, I'm going to connect with the same area where this happened. Right. It's not something you were going to avoid and be permanently scared of. That's amazing. And that really was healing for me. That is so impressive to not let this individual scare you, because that was what I was going to ask, is, you know, have you been back to that church building? Are you avoiding that church building? Are you avoiding all church buildings? I mean, I guess it's, do you have a general fear of an open shooter, I guess, is kind of the question. I definitely, I'm not anymore. I feel pretty much healed from it, except when we're talking about it, like it brings up emotion deep in there, but it was definitely a process. I remember the first time I went, it was the first time I've ever had a panic attack, and I remember, it was the only time I've ever had a panic attack, but I went there and I looked at the corner of the chairs where he was, and my whole body just started shaking and I felt lightheaded. Wow. And I remember I had to run to the bathroom and just like breathe, because I was like, I couldn't control my breathing. And I think the first couple of Sundays back, I had to leave, but I still went, and then I would leave. Okay, yeah. And I remember a couple of times, like if there was any loud noise in the building, I would instantly, I would be so triggered and jumpy. Right. I remember you mentioned to me like a car backfiring that you heard, just kind of. Yeah, it scared me so bad. I'm like, it's happening again, like instantly wanted to, I remember the car backfiring happened when we're in the church service, and I wanted to like hide under the bench again, like, oh my gosh, I'm going to get under, but that wasn't happening, it was just outside. Wow. And now they have this whole, what's it called? Memorial, they have a memorial for him at that church building. And so they have a picture of Christ where it was, and then they have something for him, like benches with his name on it and stuff, so. Right. A beautiful tribute for something so scary that happened in that place. Do you have any desire, or have you since, I guess this is a dual part question, talking to his wife in person, and I guess just feeling those emotions and talking about what happened and getting her viewpoint on things. And I guess on the flip side, talking to the Shooter's family, because I know the Shooter had like a brother who mentioned, who said he was very mentally ill, this is, you know, not excusing by any means, but saying like, he was ill. Do you have any desire, not necessarily right now, but just in your life to be able to, I guess, hear more about that man and, or hear more about how his family, the Bishop's family has healed for themselves? Yeah, actually, I've never thought about any of this, actually. Oh, well. Thank you for bringing it to light. But I definitely have a desire to speak to her and see how her family's doing, especially because, I mean, I've, we'll see each other randomly at times, but we'll just smile at each other and say hi. But we've never spoken about this. And does she know that you're the eyewitness? I only think she does. Okay. Like, because we have a mutual friend, and my friend knows that I was. Okay. But we've never like addressed it or anything. So that I'm really interested in. I don't know if I am interested in hearing about the Shooter's family. I mean, that's all I need to know. Right. I don't know. Totally. But it could be interesting as well. But not something necessary for your healing is to understand more. No. I think I did that without talking to them by just imagining what he was, like, what state of mind he possibly could be in to do that. And I remember a little bit after this had happened, after the funeral of the bishop, I was still pretty upset. And I remember sitting there and really thinking, okay, if it was because he was mentally ill, like, try to have compassion for him. Right. Because I was still at this point super mad. It's a tough thing to do. Yeah. I remember, like, if you only took your medication, if you only did, like, I was just, why would you do that? And you would have ruined so many people's lives. But then I had to step back and think, okay, what must this man have gone through? Why would he, I don't know, feel the need? And that really was healing for me as well. Yeah. Wow. Having compassion for anyone who, I guess, has wronged you. And in this case, you know, it kind of backwardsly affected you. Of course, you were not his intended target. Obviously, I don't think his mind was capable of realizing how much harm he could do in one action. But it takes a lot of courage to be able to, I guess, in your own way, forgive, whether that's forgiving him, realizing, you know, mentally ill and he was clearly insane, or just forgiving the situation. That's pretty powerful. Thanks. Where do you think that you got some of that resilience from? Was it through going to some of the therapy that you mentioned? Was it through just journaling, writing your own thoughts? How did you get to that point? Did you have a desire to, or did it just happen? It just happened. I mean, I only, honestly, I only went to therapy twice for this. I feel like I would need it a lot more, but I had such a different experience of healing from this by, I mean, I've had a lot of things in my life happen, and not all of them is healing the same way. But for this experience, I was, it was a very spiritual healing. And I think that's kind of interesting because it happened at church. So for me, like, I, should I go into spiritual stuff? Yeah, I think that's fine. Okay. So for me, I, there was one Sunday where we were all singing a song in the main service, and I was having a little bit of a panic attack. I think it was the same day where that car backfired, and I started like, I started crying. And then I remember, just my head went quiet, and I just listened to what everyone was singing. And everyone was singing, I Know That My Redeemer Lives, which is a hymn. And it's in the words, like, I can't remember exactly, but. Paraphrasing. It said, like, He lives to silence all my fears, take away my tears, something about fears and fears. And in that instant, I started crying for a whole new reason. And I just felt like the Savior was hugging me and saying, it's going to be okay. And then I, from that moment, I felt so much more healing, which was random for me, because I thought I'd need a lot more, which I did still, but that was the main part of it. Would you say that was one of the first times that you felt that type of spiritual healing, that you felt like Christ stepped in and said, I've got this one, at least I got half of this one, I'll help you carry this burden of it? Definitely, that was the first time I've really ever experienced Christ in my life, I feel like. You mentioned that feeling kind of two-sided, when you're in the thick of survivor's guilt and feeling like, I'm only 18, I didn't have kids, whereas he lost a family, or at least the family lost him. And also, you know, oh, this happened, and he saved me, so I can live a full life. I guess, now, this time later, how do you feel like this incident affected or influenced your perspective on your life and mortality, and maybe even just personal safety? Because you're now, you're a mom, you're a mom of two, and you're married. How do you think this has shaped that? That might be a weird question, by the way. No, I'm just trying to think with safety. I feel like... Hmm. I guess another way to word it would be with how it influenced your take on mortality. Is it something you realize how fragile life is now, that, I guess, based in an instant, by no control of your own, life can end? Definitely. I feel like I still, I think the only thing I still deal with is, I will think about, if someone came in my house right now and had a gun, what would I do? And it could happen so easily. Like, I want to wake up and be like, this is an amazing day. Like, I'm grateful for what I have. So, in that aspect, yeah, I think about, this could all be gone so quickly. Right. Yeah. There's also, sorry, a story I remember from my mission in Pakistan. Oh, yes, please share. Another... Let's see. I remember, I don't know if I can make it out of this, but... Yeah, we'll plug it in. So, later on, through this whole experience, I decided that I needed to go serve a mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And so, I was on the mission. And on a mission, you wear a name tag that says the Church's name and Jesus Christ. And for the first month, all of a sudden, I was terrified again. Like, this was when I was 21. So, I had felt like I was healed or whatever, never really thought about it, except for around Fourth of July. Fourth of July was always like this big trigger for me. I couldn't hear the fireworks without crying. So, besides Fourth of July, I felt fine. And then, I'm on the mission. I have this name tag. And every time I pass a man specifically, I'd be like, he's going to kill me. Because if I would... If a bishop got shot at church just for going to church and worshiping, why would I not be killed for trying to share that? I don't know. Representing Christ. Yeah. And so, I'd get scared talking to people. I'd hide my name tag in my hair because when I pass certain people, like, please don't kill me. That would go on in my head a lot. Wow. So, kind of a lasting effect of PTSD followed you into your mission unexpectedly. Do you remember how... So, for your mission service, you served for 18 months, so a year and a half. Did it last your whole mission? And if not, how did that... How did you get over that, I guess? It lasted only like half the mission. Okay. So, like, still a while. But it would get less and less. And as I would just, you know... This sounds weird, but I got to the point where I was like, you know, if I die, I die. Okay, yeah. That's the first part. Totally. And then after that, I was like, I just realized, you know, I'm going to be okay. Like, that is not normal. It's not a normal situation to go to church and have that happen. No. How often did that really actually happen in my life? And I realized that I was kind of going into the trauma mindset. I'm like, okay, this isn't reality. This is just my fears coming up. And addressing that and then bringing myself back to the present moment and being like, okay, I'm safe. Right. That's really what helped me. Yeah, that's beautiful. I like both sides of what you said, because to an extent, like, well, if I die, I die. I mean, it's something you can't control. I mean, obviously, sometimes you can go too soon, or it feels, you know, very traumatic, or it can hurt a lot of people. But you can only control what you control. And it sounds like you realized, I can't control when I die, but I can control my mindset. I can live in fear, or I can grow and move on. And I guess be willing to share my story and be an advocate for this type of trauma, and almost more specifically PTSD. It sounds like a lot of your symptoms that you dealt with were really common to just a lot of violence. It was a very violent incident that you witnessed. Yeah. Do you have anything else you want to say? I don't know why we whisper on this. I don't know. They can hear us. Do you have any other stories? Those are pretty much most of my questions. Actually, they're all my questions that you either answered just naturally or went through. There's some, like, you know, little bit that we can, like, leave the audience with, just like, like, and I guess I could probably just ask you, like, your well wishes to the audience. If somebody else is dealing with PTSD or kind of, like, is in fear from some sort of violence they witnessed, that there's hope. Is that fine? Yeah. Or, like, kind of like a send off. We never talked about how we would.