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Dr. Tanvish Singh, an assistant professor in psychology, discusses her new book related to Nahor and the role of Samuel Evans Stokes in India's freedom struggle. The book is part of the Songs of Freedom series, which explores the lives of children during the struggle for independence. The cover of the book includes elements from the story itself. Dr. Singh discovered Stokes' story while traveling and was intrigued by his role in the economic and social growth of the region. She believes in providing children with age-appropriate information and supporting free information. So, hello those two, welcome back to the Frontier Show. Today on the panel we are having Dr. Tanvish Singh. He is an assistant professor in psychology. He has completed her studies in positive psychology, which is a relatively new branch of psychology devoted to cultivating contented, happy, fulfilling lives. Today we will be discussing about her book related to Nahor, in which we shall be diving much more deeper about her book, about the psychology, about children's literature and what not. So, let us dive into the podcast now. Hello guys, welcome back to the Frontier Show. Today on the panel we are having Dr. Tanvish Singh. Today we will be talking about her new book, which is related to Nahor and we will be diving much more deeper into the children's literature and many more aspects related to it. So, Dr. Tanvish, how are you doing today? I am doing great. Thanks for having me over. Wow. So, you know, like while I was researching for this book, while I was, you know, I got the hands on this book. So, the whole setting and the whole book cover seems really nice. And like, while upon a glance on the front cover, you know, there are numerous things gathered onto it, like you definitely see a dog, a sheep, a leopard, a newspaper, a tea kettle. And then there is also a bag with SBI logo on that. So, how, basically what was your thought process behind, you know, this cover? Yeah, so the cover is, it's not my thought process. It's a series. The book is a part of the Songs of Freedom series. And basically it explores the lives of children across India during the struggle for independence. And the covers actually have elements from the book itself. So, whatever you see on the covers, you will find in the story itself. And that is common all across the books, which makes it very interesting, I feel. Yeah. Right. Like, this is a lot of what you can expect in the book, these certain elements. Yeah. So, these elements are there. They are a part of the story. Yeah. Right. So, now moving ahead with my questions. So, you know, your book shed light on the role of Samuel Evans Stokes, which in India's freedom struggles. So, can you share more about how you discovered his story and what led you to include him as a central character in your historical figure? So, I want to understand the gravity of why did you build with this character in this particular book? Yeah. Yeah. So, see, first of all, you have to understand what the series is about. It's the premise, as I understand from the various books, they're disconnected. Like, it's not like you have to read one book after the other. They are all set in different states in different times during the freedom struggle. The whole premise was that during the struggle, it was not just a handful, few freedom fighters who were engaged in our fight. There were children, there were people all across the country. So, what were the children doing? And an attempt to connect the children of today to the children of the times then. Because as we grow now, the stories will get lost. The oral tradition of storytelling is getting lost because we still got, I mean, I remember growing up to stories of freedom struggle from my grandparents and what were they doing and or what were their tiny parts, which, of course, you will not find in history books. So, that was one thing. Second thing, if you look at our history textbooks. So, I don't know. I mean, I've never found it interesting enough. It's been a series of dates, series of events. There is no story, you know, or the story is limited to a few names. So, that was another thing. So, all these things were what set the series up that, you know, let's explore more. Let these freedom fighters be at the backdrop of the story and let the common people carry it forward, you know. Now, coming to Stokes. So, last year, I think a year and a half back almost, we set out, we love to travel and we have a tiny home place in Pearson Valley. It's a kind of a homestay. And in fact, Sarchie, the village that is mentioned here, is very near our place. So, we also love to travel in the mountains a lot. And we were going on a trip to Kaza. And we took a break in a tiny homestay called Grandma Stokes near Cote Garde. And so, the name was very intriguing. I mean, in the middle of nowhere, you have a very English sort of a name, Grandma Stokes. So, I happened to talk to the owner who turned out to be the great-grandson of Samuel Stokes. And he's the one who told me that, you know, Stokes is known mostly for the Apple Revolution in Himachal. But he was much more than that. In fact, he was more concerned with the economic and social growth of the region. And we had a long conversation on how he helped with that. That became the seed of the story that, oh, I had no idea. I mean, I remember reading this name as a paragraph clubbed with other names of people, foreigners who fought or who in the word fought was also not really used back then. It was more of, you know, they were a part of the struggle or they supported and not much credit was given. You know, that was one thing. Second, when I started reading up about him, what was interesting is that there were these different voices, you know, when as children, when we studied about independent struggle, again, it focused on a few voices. There was little disagreement or if there was disagreement, it was brushed aside that nothing of the sort happened. But here was a man who held Gandhi in very high regard, also disagreed with him at times, had used to write letters to him. They had a conversation going on. Two people wanting the same thing, maybe slightly different routes. But that was very interesting to me. And that very fact that a young man comes all the way from America, settles down in the mountains to serve people and ends up taking up the cause of freedom struggle of another country altogether, gets jailed, is the only American to be jailed for during the freedom struggle. So that was all very interesting that how is this, you know, do I see that happening now? I don't know. I mean, back then this is what happened. But so this is this kind of makes that whole idea of things like human rights, freedom struggle, very universal, that he was here fighting for freedom, despite being of a different origin. So, you know, all of this together really sparked the interest in him. Right. So we can definitely see that your trip to that village was definitely life changing. Absolutely. In terms of writing the books. Absolutely. You know, like when I was researching particularly about you, before recording this podcast. So we are like, I came to know that you are also an assistant professor in psychology. And you're also very familiar with positive psychology. So how does this combination of being a psychologist or being a mental health practitioner and while writing this book comes hand in hand? Like, how does both these like, how do you manage both the terms? I, I guess they're two different roles, you know. So I'm sure it helps somewhere. Like maybe complement each other? Of course, they would, you know, see being a writer, or I would say, someone who's trying to write, you have to be great at observing, you know, or at least I won't say great or at least be interested in observing around you, the site, the sounds, the people, the, you know, the ethos of that place, how are the people talking to each other? What are the things they're doing? How are they living? All those things. And somewhere, so positive psychology, not per se, but positive, I mean, I love the field, of course, but we're talking specifically about writing. The practice of mindfulness, of course, helps, you know, that to be there in that moment to let your senses do the work for you. So yes, that much of groundwork, yes. But apart from that, it's very difficult to really comment that, okay, what part of me helps in the writing process? It's something, it's a coming together of everything, you know, it's your passion for reading, collective experience, like everything, you know, you can't really separate your experiences, can you? Like, even if it's academic, everything builds you, everything helps in whatever you're doing. It shapes it. So it's very difficult to separate that what part is helped and not not. Right. Yeah. You know, basically, on which I would definitely feel like a standpoint would be, so children of like, there's a new category, which is coined as young adults, right? Who are much more familiar, who is much more exposed to relatively mature content, like compared to when we were exposed to such kind of content, you know, terms like mental health, terms like depression are much more readily available to them then compared to us back in the day. So, you know, what is your standpoint? What is your thought process behind this? Like, should they be exposed to such kind of content or should they not be exposed to such kind of content? See, why not? I am a big, big, big supporter of free information. Right? So, even younger lot, if they come, if let's say a six year old walks up and says, where did I come from? Please don't bring in the stoke or the Bhagwan ji ka, you know, avatar or whatever. No. Be truthful. Give them the information, give them the information in age appropriate terms and you're fine. We give very less credit to the younger lot than is due. So, we cannot help the information being out there. Some of them also, some of it might be a bit of a misinformation. So, now, which side would you want to be on? Would you want to inform them with the correct things that, okay, you know, you'll encounter X, Y, Z, this is true, this is important, this might be overstated, you know, whatever you're talking about. So, give them the correct information, make them aware and equipped to handle all that inflow of information. You cannot shut out information in today's day and time that, oh, this is not appropriate for, let's say, a 17 year old or a 13 year old. It doesn't happen. You have to equip them to be able to handle whatever is coming. Right. Now, on the back of your book, it is mentioned about the age, which is ages 10 and up. So, how do you, like, when you're particularly writing for this kind of, you know, audience or this kind of age group, what are the major things that you should keep in mind and, like, what would be your advice to, you know, listening out there who might want to pick up a pen and, you know, write for this particular kind of audience? So, first of all, I think I at least don't know of any writer who deliberately thinks of age groups while writing. All right. We write, then editing happens, then we figure out that, okay, of course, there's a broad idea that, okay, I'm writing for, let's say, a middle grade, but let's say the age group that goes on the back, that's a very editorial decision. Having said that, I'm not a big fan, neither of any, I mean, any of my writer friends, they are not big fans of age groups either. They are just, I think they are more of kind of a help to, let's say, you go into a bookstore or a parent goes into a bookstore, they want to pick up, they have no idea. And so they can look up and, okay, this is age 10 and up, so it's fine. Apart from that, there are no markers as such, you know. If I were to talk about picture books, you will find all sorts of themes explored in picture books. If you have read this one, the Letter to Lahore, we are talking about, so it's, as I was saying, that, you know, it's not, there is nothing off the table. It's just how you present it, you know. And if you look at this book also, I've had people who are much older and who've read it and who've come back saying that, oh, this was very layered and, you know, we, it really raises a lot of questions and it got us curious. So I can't really, I don't think that any of us really write with very specific age categories in mind. Now, having said that, of course, if I'm writing, let's say, for this age group that, you know, I've got this in mind that I'm writing for middle grade age group and I want, let's say, a 12-year-old or a 10-year-old to read it, of course, my protagonist has to be of the same age. Why would a child be interested in reading about, let's say, a 20-year-old or, let's say, a much younger child? It has to be somebody they can identify. Right. Yeah. So, like, while we are, like, talking about this and we are, like, there's been much more deeper into the children's literature, so what do you think, you know, like, appeases the children? So, let's say, if I'm a new writer, I said, like, I particularly, you know, I'm a children's author, like, I want to write in the, into the space of children's literature. So, how do you appease children with your writing? See, you can't, in fact, children's writing for children is much tougher, I feel, than for grown-ups because grown-ups would still have the patience of turning a few pages before they find interest. Right. You know, let's say, you open the first chapter and if things are not really moving along, you'd still go on and you'll be a little more patient. Children are not that patient. They'd probably toss the book if the first paragraph doesn't capture them. That's one thing. The second thing is, you know, adults trying to be patronizing. No one likes that. That's the whole moral of the story. I think that a lot of parents also look for that, oh, what is the child learning from it? That, as a reader, I don't think that's something a child looks for at all. It has to be fun. It has to be something they can feel invested in. It has to make them curious, if at all. At the end of the day, I should want to turn another page, you know. So, honest storytelling is what they are looking for, I feel. But then again, you can never really predict what will work and what will not. Right. So, moving ahead with my questions. So, your book portrays the struggle of marginalized groups, particularly untouchables and women. During that freedom struggle, why was it important for you to incorporate these stories into your narrative and how did you resource their experiences while crafting this book? So, as I said, I live in Tirthan Valley and I've had the opportunity of communicating with people there, of interacting with them, of hearing what they go through today. So, if you kind of take that back, if they are going through discrimination even today, it's anyone's guess that it wouldn't have been any better back then. And then, um, sort of the conversations and the research reveal a lot. So, the conversation with the older lot as to how it was much worse, you know, and it was something which is very sort of accepted by them that resigned, sort of. It's only now that the younger lot are kind of reacting to it, are impatient with it and are looking for ways out. So, but having said that, um, there is still a lot of resignation around discrimination because I think somewhere, we, the city dwellers, have a very blinkered vision of what discrimination is and we tend to assume that it is just limited to some pages in the history book or in really remote places and it doesn't happen around us. So, the whole idea was to, again, it was very deliberate, honestly, to include this because it is something which, which I find very disturbing and which, again, I don't even know if I understand very well because I come from a very privileged position in terms of women being educated from last three, four generations and they being independent in terms of caste. I belong to an upper caste and so I want to say that, oh, I understand, would be a disservice, but I want to understand and I, I want to voice that it's, it's, it's wrong and if nothing else, I want to report that, okay, this is, this is how it is. Now, what do you take away from it and what do you want to do about it? Those are the questions I would pose and, in fact, it's given some really interesting outcomes when I go and talk to the children and we, about the book and we talk about caste system and discrimination, very interesting responses come up. Some of them would be, especially in the smaller cities, they are pretty much aware that, oh, yes, of course, it happens and, of course, it happens here itself as well, but bigger cities, the bigger privileged schools, a lot of them don't really see it or in the cities or they, they, again, attribute it to someplace else. So, it's an interesting conversation that is started, you know, there and to sort of get them to see that it is still happening. So, it becomes kind of books like these or themes like this, I hope, become a springboard for them to dive deeper into these issues and be more curious, be more proactive. Hmm. Right. It's really important to see such kind of values into the younger ones. So, when they grow up, they grow up to be a much more kinder, a much more good human being in terms of values that has been instilled or taught to them. So, like, while you were just telling us about how you interact with these kind of children, so there must definitely be a lot of questions that you might not have answers to. So, how do you deal with that kind of situation? And like, are there any such kind of questions that you receive? Lots. So, I mean, as a teacher also, as someone who goes and meets children, a lot of times there are questions that, or as a parent, a lot of times there are questions that I would not have answers to, questions that no one would have answers to. So, the idea is for those questions to stay alive, to find your own answers. So, then you help them find their own answers. You know, let's say a very basic question, do you think God exists? If God does exist, then why is there so much of suffering? I have been asked that by my kids. And so, we explore those questions together and we would then look at different viewpoints and what works for us and what doesn't. So, as an adult, see, we are not supposed to have all the answers. And it's okay to not have answers. But it's very important to pose the questions. Like you have to keep the curiosity in your kid's brain. Yes, in anyone. I mean, that curiosity has to be there for everyone. You have to be curious. Right. So, you know, like, so when we're talking about, you know, so there's a particular thing which is mentioned about positive psychology. So, you know, would you like to elaborate it to the listeners? Like, basically, what is it about? What kind of tips and tricks that you want to give to them? So, I would just tell you what it is. But I guess the tips, tricks would be another one hour separate podcast itself, which gets a little out of hand. So, my field is basically, it's a very new field. I did my doctoral studies in it. And it basically focuses on the character strengths of an individual, the virtues which are universal and how they would contribute to our enhanced well-being. And in addition to these concepts like mindfulness, gratitude, forgiveness, how they help you be a happier, more content individual. So, it's in a way it's a spiritualism with a scientific approach. Yes. That sounds really interesting. I think we would definitely like to invite you back again with another podcast, especially on positive psychology. Definitely. Oh, sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. So, you know, like the book related to Lahore is a historical fiction novel that explores lesser known aspects of India's freedom struggle. So, how did your background and, you know, when you're talking about the psychology, so how did your background help you while, you know, exploring the emotions of the characters while going into psychological depth of the characters? So, how did that help? So, again, as I said earlier, you know, it's very difficult to separate what helped and what didn't. Maybe it was more of an experience as a woman, as someone who's seen discrimination, even though, as I said, I belong to a fairly privileged class. Yes, when you step out, you do see the discrimination, maybe that plays a role somewhere. And observing how things work there. In fact, anywhere you go, there are certain themes which are pretty universal. So, it's not really, again, it's difficult to separate that what helped. Did the curiosity as a reader, the love for writing, experiences as a woman, as a traveler, everything just comes together to build those stories. Yeah. So, now, your prose in the book is captivating and evocative as well. So, how did you approach, like, what was your, like, I definitely understand. So, that, you know, this is a collective experience. Like, your whole book is a collective experience of, you know, your experience into each and everything. So, what was it like while you were, you know, developing these characters? So, how did you thought of, like, you know, you've already cleared us about the Freedom Fighters, the scramble events. So, while, you know, keeping him in mind, so, the other side characters. So, how did you, what was your approach while, you know, crafting them, writing them? So, in fact, Samuel Stokes is more of a background, you know, never really figures in the story, it's just backdrop. And he formed the backbone in the sense that the letter being carried or the one of the articles that need to reach in time. The characters that you see, Lakshmi and Bhola and Umesh, they are, I think, coming together of people I've actually met, you know. So, it's like, let's say, Bhola is actually a mix of a boy that I know, real boy, and a girl who just don't talk, who would just not talk in front of strangers, would just talk and whisper to everyone and would just chatter up a storm with her mother. So, it's a lot of times, it's just things that stick in your memory. And they just, again, you know, it's like building a collage out of different snippets that you carry along the way. And that's how I at least approach the characters, they just come, you know, there has never been a conscious attempt that. So, when I started, I did not know that there are going to be three characters in it. Or I definitely knew that the dog is going to be there, because I love dogs, and Sheru is very much real. And so, I just knew that, oh, he has to be there. Apart from that, I knew that, okay, this is going to be centered around Lakshmi, rest of the characters, they just, it's almost like they just come and stand in front of you that and they tell their own story. It's a little strange. So, different people have different approaches. Some people actually start very methodically, where they build the plot line, and they do their character sketches. Some are fairly disorganized, like me, where they have a vague idea of how and what's going on. And then people just keep turning up in the story. And then you sit with them, you sort of write their backstories, and you go along. Right. So, when we're talking about the term fiction, the historical fiction, so there are a lot of things running in the mind that, you know, it would be definitely centered around certain historical elements. There would be a certain plot line where, you know, the writer must have let their imagination loose. So, while we're talking about the fiction part, so how do you balance the historical accuracy, like taking out the dates, taking out the resource, and while combining it with the storytelling experience? See, the fact cannot be played around with, you know, the dates are accurate. So, we work back from them, that okay, this is the date that the article was published. So, now let's assume that what if the third part or the second part was not there with the publisher? What if they were somewhere else? So, this is the kind of liberty we would take, that okay, the article has been published on this date, it's not been delivered yet, and therein is the problem which needs to be solved. But apart from that, your dates, the context, the things that you'd see, let's say a use of a Bukhari or, you know, the kind of utensils being used or the temple carvings and all that, they would be very, at least, they would be accurate, they would belong to those times. There, your research would center around reading material that is already available, talking to the older generation. A lot of it is also, you know, you'd want to confirm that okay, what, how were you, let's say, how were you cooking food back then? What was the setting? Was there a separate kitchen? Was there, you know, where, what were you making? What were the utensils being used? What metal was being used? These are all the things that you research them. You cannot have stainless steel and ceramic plates in a place which is not even connected by roads to any place, you know, any main city. Yeah. Right. And rightly said. So, you know, moving ahead with that, so your book must have received a lot of acclaim for its focus on, you know, lesser known aspects of the freedom movement. So, how was the response has been from readers and historians? No, not yet, not yet. Some, yes. Some feedback, yes, because it's relatively very new and I sincerely hope that in the coming months, much, many, many more people read it. But so far, it's been excellent. It's been promising. It's very humbling. Because honestly, when you write, you don't really think of what effect it will have, or whether somebody will pick it or not pick it. You just want to get the story that is inside you out. And so to have people actually come back and say that, you know, for me, actually, the biggest takeaway was the biggest win was when children wrote back and said, Oh, we are very curious about this chap now, you know, Camille Stokes, we are very curious. And, you know, we wish that you had written more about him. And now we have to research and all so that that's like a big win. If they are going to use Google to actually search for something more meaningful. Yeah, so that that was a big win. Right, you know, like, as you mentioned earlier in our conversation that, like through this book, you want to actually voice the children, generate curiosity in them. Oh, you know, moving ahead with that. So what was like that? What would, let's say if I'm a 14 year old, so what would your thing like, what would be thought to be like, while after reading this book? Then what I hope for? Yeah, no, no, no lesson there. So I break into hives every time anyone says morals or lessons. So no lesson there, people, if you're listening, there are no lessons in the book. But if a child puts down the book, and then at least give the give the thought to how women are, word, how have the things changed, not changed? Is the caste system still there? Is the caste system still there around the child? Does he see he or she see the discrimination if they have not seen it? I hope the book helps them see it in some way. Or at least suppose those questions, they get curious about the lives of people outside the comfort zone that they are in. So if honestly, if they're just questioning things, if they are curious about things, I think I would have hit a home run. Right? You know, like, while we are talking about children, so reading is often termed as a, you know, a dying art, where, you know, people are more reluctant to pick up the books, rather than just, you know, mindlessly going, scrolling through these. So when we're talking about the books, while competing with digital media, like there are so much apps available, teams available to multimedia. So how, what kind of situation would you like to put down when we are, you know, book versus digital media? So there is no, there is no fight. I think that's something that we have made it up. Like right now, we are talking, right? It's a podcast. It's a podcast about books. It complements books. Correct. So I don't think there's a fight. In fact, if I were to compare our generation with the generation today, the number of choices they have, in terms of what they want to read, is phenomenal now. We didn't have these many choices back then in terms of what kind of books we want. We read whatever we could lay our hands on, because there were no choices, you know, not much at least. Now, in terms of, you know, yes, mindless scrolling versus books, people who read, they read, right? Now to say that, oh, people are not reading because social media is there. I don't think so. Limiting the screen usage as a whole is a different problem altogether, right? It is not something which is eating up your reading type, essentially. It is something which is rewiring your brain. I think that is way more grave than what it's doing in terms of reading. So I have, I've come across kids who still read while eating books hidden under the table. I see little kids who, you know, who would line up for autographs from the authors and the shine in their eyes when they get it and when they get that picture with you. So no, the readers are there. They are very much there. There is no competition as such. It's just that as grown-ups, I think somewhere we need to relook at the accessibility and what kind of information at what age and how much time is being spent on the screen. Yeah, right. So my next question would be, how do I encourage my child to read? You let them pick up their own books. You take them to bookstores. You let them explore the shelves. You know, your online buying apps cannot replace a physical bookstore. So, or if you're in a place where there are libraries, that would be great. If there is a library, make one. Make one small mini library. I know of people who have done that. They have taken, sort of collaborated, brought their books together and built a tiny library in their locality. So it's about accessibility, I feel. And you let the child decide. What's the worst that could happen? They might pick up a book which you would end up paying and they might not open it for, let's say, three years, four years. They might open it after that. They might not. You might end up either just watching it and thinking that, oh, my money was wasted. You might gift it ahead or it might just, or it might impress you. Small price to pay. But let them decide. You know, there are no, I see, I go to bookstores and it kills me when the parents say, oh, you're picking a picture book. Ye to bahut jaldi khatam jayega. It'll just finish quickly. It kills me. Because for what? For what if a book finishes in 10 minutes or takes an hour or takes two days? It's what the child needs. It's probably what the child needs. It's what, you know, they get in the pages. That's what is more important. So let the child pick up whatever they want and you would have a reader. Right. Very, very rightly said. So, you know, like, while I do have a lot of questions left and, you know, there's much more to talk about. However, our time is at end. So, you know, it was such a great conversation with you, Dr. Tanu. And, you know, we are definitely looking forward to meeting you again, having another generous conversation with you again. So while we observe the Children's Day this month, so what would be your message to, you know, on the occasion of Children's Day, and then you will definitely change this podcast. Dr. Tanu, to the grown-ups, let them be. Let them find their own way. Let them make their own mistakes. Let them dust themselves and get up. You just be around if they need your help. Just let them be. Exactly. Thank you so much, guys, for tuning in. Thank you so much, Dr. Tanu, for being a part of this podcast. Pleasure. Likewise, and we will definitely be coming back with more engaging conversation with more such meaningful conversation to you. So stay till then, stay tuned. Thank you so much again. Thank you so much.