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This is a podcast episode discussing the value of motherhood and the challenges faced by mothers. The guest, Deshawn, shares her thoughts and experiences as a mother of four. They discuss the importance of self-care for mothers and the balance between taking time for oneself and being present for the family. They also talk about the role of mothers in guiding and communicating with their children, and how this can help prevent risky behaviors. The conversation highlights the discrepancy between media portrayals of motherhood and the reality of the role. Okay, this is a test to see how our voices turn out. How is it going? Do I need to move my head towards ... Hi, this is Jenny Sparks and I'm here, this is the second installment of a podcast from Chapters in Successful Marriages and Families Proclamation Principles on Research Perspectives by Alan J. Hawkins, David C. Dallaheit, Thomas W. Drape. And today, the chapter is Mother vs. Nurturers and I'm here with a good friend, Deshawn Roach. Hello. And she has graciously agreed to let me interview her and ask her some questions about some of her thoughts and feelings on mothers and Deshawn, do you want to just tell us a little bit about yourself? Sure. I'm a mother of four. I have two girls and two boys, they range in ages from 21 to 13, and I've been married for 25 years. That's great. Yeah. And we, just to give a little background, we did serve in Young Women's together for a little bit. You were the Young Women's President and I have a lot of respect for you and how you were as a leader and how you are as a mother, so that's one of the reasons why I wanted to... Other than you're a good friend and this makes it fun. Yes. Yes. Thank you. It was so great. So much fun to serve together. So, let's get right to it. As a mother, do you sometimes feel less valued than your spouse? I actually don't. Okay. I know there's probably some that do, but I just don't. I feel like being a mom, there is so much to it, and so I sometimes think, well, what does my husband get? Does he feel less valued as a dad? I do wonder that sometimes, but I just think motherhood keeps me busy and I just think there's so much to it. It's not just a one cap. Yeah. I think that's a great point too. I think so much of what we see in the media is the opposite. It's saying, if you're a mother and that's all you are, then you aren't, or if you're a mother and you work outside the home and you focus on being a mother, then you're not as good as a career person or something like that. Yeah. No, you're right. And you do. You have a job outside the home and you find the time to be a good mom and be there for the kids. It's good because I know sometimes it's very easy to feel less than sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a balancing act to all of it. That's true. In all those aspects. That's true. Do you think motherhood is more valued or less than valued in previous generations? I feel that it is maybe less valued right now. I feel like a lot of mothers, it's not enough of an identity and they want more. They want something more. And for different reasons too. They need something more to occupy their time or to help supplement income or help identify them. So I feel like the fulfillment that motherhood maybe once brought, it's being less valued because they're seeking other sources of identity. True. It's more about find yourself, make yourself happy than do this for your child. I know in the book it talked about this idea that came about in modern times that was like suggest that women, you're less than if you focus on your child. You need to focus on your career. And they saw it more as men holding them back and keeping them back by saying you need to be the mother, you need to be in the home and not chase after your career. And it talked about a little bit too, because of this and because women feeling, getting that overwhelming feeling that being a mother was a hindrance or I'm trying to find the right word, something to hold them back. That children then were seen as, oh, they cost too much money and they take too much time. And so people are, one of the aspects is people are having less kids because they see that kids as more of a hindrance than as something that brings them joy or may be helpful in the future. I found that very interesting. I thought how sad because I think of how happy, how much joy my kids brought and how much my daughter does for me and how much she serves me. And I thought, oh, where would I be in my old age someday? If I didn't have kids that we loved and took care of. Well, and you even do it with your mother. Yeah, that's true. You're taking care of her and loving on her and doing what you can from afar and in person. That's true. And the book has stated that we need to take time for ourselves so that we can be better mothers. What are some things that you do to take time to nurture yourself? I think it varies at different stages of motherhood. When you had young kids, it was like my husband would come home and be like, I just need 20 minutes by myself, just for a minute, or to unwind by watching a show. I feel as my kids have gotten older, which brings more busyness, places to be to take them to, participate in, all those things. Those evenings don't get to happen, that unwinding or the time by myself. So I do find just getting to go to lunch with a friend and getting to talk with a friend or a longer phone call conversation with my mom or my sisters or a friend I haven't talked to for a while. Those are things that are fulfilling to me. Attending the temple and being able to do that during the school day or the work day where my kids are otherwise occupied and I don't have to feel rushed or worried about where they're at because I know where they're at. That is very therapeutical, I guess, in a way, to get to do that and really just be there for what I need. How do you feel? Do you feel like when you take that time that you can be a better mother than when you're not able to take that time? Probably on that day, yes. And then the next day starts over and I'm like, oh no! I think for me, exercise, I always say exercise is my antidepressant. That's true. But sometimes it is, like you said, going out to lunch with a friend or even just having my husband, when the kids were little, just take the kids out and give me some peace. Give me time to take a shower or a bath and be clean. Put clean clothes on. When I was small, that was a big deal. Do you find, too, that it's a fine line between doing too much for yourself or not enough? For me personally, I probably don't feel like that's a thing for me. It's easy to look at other people and maybe judge a little bit like, hmm, maybe they crossed that line. I don't know. That's really hard. But if I'm just looking at myself, I don't constantly think I need to make more time for myself, if that makes sense. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Well, that's good. That's something that you got down because I think that's a difficult thing for a lot of mothers is finding that life balance of not either too much time away from family or not enough time away from family. Yeah. In the book in this chapter, it says, it studies that consistently indicate that adolescents who report telling their mothers where they are ongoing and what they will be doing after school and on weekends also report lower rates of alcohol misuse, drug use, sexual activity, and delinquency. Why do you think this is the case? And if it is the case, why do you think we see so many views of the opposite in the media? That's a really big question. I know. It's a long question, too. If you have ADHD like me, you'd be like, okay, where were we? What was the question again? It's already over. Oh, man. I think just from my personal experience, my kids know I'm waiting up for them. They know that I expect to talk to them to find out, how'd your night go? What did you guys end up doing if they didn't have a plan beforehand? I also really love to give my kids ideas of, here's what you guys could do. I just think there's just a constant dialogue between us. I think that helps. They know their mom's going to be waiting up for them, and they'll need to give a report. That expectation is there. That communication is there. That dialogue is there. I think that's very helpful, and it keeps them on track to think about what they're doing, what their actions are, what their choices are, because they know they're going to have to report back in. As far as seeing it opposite in the media, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know why that is. Maybe explain to me more, what is it that we are seeing? Well, just for example, one of the things I've noticed, if you watch any of the shows where there's teenagers and moms and dads on the film, it's always, I see a lot of, you're in my space, mom, and you're not, it's supposed to be, we're supposed to trust them and not get into their space and not wait up for them and that sort of thing. Okay, yeah, and that makes more sense too, as far as that question goes. Because again, it's a balancing act. Yes, you want your kids to know that you trust them, but if there's never follow-up, if there's never accountability, they will never learn that trust or earn it or understand what trust is. Yeah, there has to be boundaries. Yeah. And if they don't know what the boundaries are, then how are they going to stop? How are they going to, you know, bang up against those boundaries? Exactly. So, yeah, I find it interesting. I see a lot of things in the media and I know it just, sometimes I just wonder. Katie, my daughter, listens to a lot of Disney Broadway musicals and there's one singer that she wrote a song, The Mom Song. I don't know if you've heard it on Disney. And she makes fun of the fact that all the moms are dead. Why are all the moms in princess movies dead? And it just, that's kind of made me think of it. It's like, are moms not, and she says, are moms not important? Or we got, you know, how come all the moms are dead in these movies? That's so interesting. And then she said, and then the joke was, well, that, you know, Frozen's mom, but she died, so. I think youth just needs like a guiding light and moms should be part of that role. As members of the church, we have, you know, the gift of the spirit to also play a huge role in that as well, but we don't see that in the media. No. And I think some of what we see in the media is also this portrayal of kids are partying, but so are the parents. Yeah. You know, there's two different storylines, and so it makes it look like, well, the parents are doing it and the kids are doing it, and there's no accountability to either set. So that's why, you know, that's why you see the opposite portrayal in the media. Yeah, it's kind of sad, too, because I think by just that little thing that you talked about, that your kids know that you're waiting up for them so that they come report to you, that's in itself a gesture of love, of nurturing your child. So maybe at that moment or one time or this time, they're like, oh, I've got to go report to mom. But something to always remember is that you were there to report to when they needed you. There's that one time, maybe ten times they don't need you, and they're just like, eh, I've got to go report to mom. But that one time they need you and you're there, and they can look back at that and know that you were always there. Well, and everything's so fresh when they come home. That's when they want to talk. They don't want to talk after they've slept in the next day until noon, you know. It's like, oh, yeah, it was fine, it was fine, we did this. But instead you get a lot more details when it's just ended, when they've just gotten home. It's fresh on their mind. And you find, too, different kids need different things. I mean, they all need to be talked to, but, yeah, different kids need and want different attention and different things. That's true. What are some ways that we can help support each other as mothers? I know we just talked about media and the perception of mothers, and we talked a little bit about mothers and needing time to relax, and maybe sometimes mothers feel less than. What are some ways that we can support mothers and maybe see those that may need some help and support? That's a hard one. I feel like as my kids have aged and I'm at this stage of life now, I'm very consumed with what's going on in my home. Right. So the outward look is a little more difficult for me just because I'm busy with tasks but also emotionally and mentally carrying their burdens and helping them process and get through things. So the outward look is a little bit difficult to perform. But I think a way that we could is if moms could be brave enough to talk but also have people that will listen and not judge or look at things going on with their watching another mother's children, maybe the decisions they're making or not making or whatever, and not judging because you don't know. Yeah. So you've got to learn to be a good listener and be someone that someone wants to come talk to. Yeah. So be a safe space. Yes. With no judgments. Kind of what I found out too as I've gotten older is I've always been the person that wants to give advice. I do it to my kids. If my friends come to me with something, I'm like, oh, let's find a solution with this advice. And what I've come to learn is sometimes they don't want advice. They just want to be heard. They just want to be heard. They want to know that you're listening and that you care and that you're not in a place of judgment. That's true. And their place and where they are as a mother might be totally different than you. Like you said, we don't know what they're going through and what their home life is like or what their kids are going through, and sometimes they just need that. But you're right. It's hard when you're busy day-to-day being a mom and taking your kids to band and basketball and whatnot to look outside yourself and see another mother struggle. But, yeah, and I think the thing to realize too is sometimes when we feel like we're sure, they talk about in the book like someone asked her how she was and she just kind of broke down and was like, this and this and this went wrong and I'm a terrible mother and I'm terrible. And I think I can speak for myself. I've felt like that many times. Sure, yeah. You feel like, oh, my gosh, I'm a terrible mother or I've made this mistake. Or when they're 20, are they going to come back and say, Mom, you did this wrong? And I've had days when I thought, man, I've got this now. I just did really well with this. I was able to go all the things and I answered questions. For me, anyways, it's that up and down. Well, and I think any more like the question, how are you? How are you doing? No, like there's no realness to that. No. Because the answer is, oh, hey, I'm good. Yeah. You know, like we need some more realness maybe. Right. And even if you're just in and passing, it's more of a greeting than it is a real question. It's more like saying, hello, but how are you doing? Oh, fine. Like I don't think I've ever had somebody say, well, actually, today hasn't been that great. Today's been awesome. I can really use some time to chat. Do you have a minute? I don't think that's ever really happened. And I think the other thing is sometimes when you get asked a question, maybe you're having, like for example, about 20 years ago, or my twins are 24. So 24 years ago, the weight of them broke my tailbone. And so afterwards, I had a lot of trouble with my tailbone. And I remember after they were born and I went back to church, I would take a pillow with me to sit down, because my tailbone was terrible. And this one gentleman would ask me like every Sunday, oh, why do you have that pillow? And I'd say the exact same story, why I had the pillow. But it was like he was asking a question because it was a way of being social rather than really listening. And that was such a big, I mean, literally that happened like three or four weeks in a row. And it was a big example to me. Like when you ask a question, if you're going to ask a question, listen. Listen to the answer. Don't just do it as a social thing, even if you don't really know the person. Yeah, I think that's so true. I think that's an important thing too. I agree. How do you think the modern era of consumerism has affected mothers' role? I know that's kind of a weird question as well. I did think about it for a while, so hopefully I'm understanding it correctly. But I feel like in that identity or in that process of maybe trying to add to your identity as a mother, we have so many social influencers, right? So I think that has really driven consumerism. Yes, they started doing that because they're trying to bring extra income in or find an additional label for their identity. But I feel like that has driven consumerism like crazy. But also subconsciously or not, we probably think about the things that maybe we lacked growing up or things we loved while we were growing up, and we want our kids to experience or have those things that we did or didn't have. And so the ability to do that, I think, shows in our motherhood with our children and wanting them to have those things that either we didn't or did have. And then the influencers just make you want that air fryer, man. And they want you to be the cool mom, right? Yes, the cool mom. The cool mom that can dance and do all the TikToks with their kids. And there's nothing wrong with that. No, there's not. But some of those influencers do. They want you to be the cool mom. I feel that, like you said, there's that drive to make sure our kids have everything that the neighbor's kids have and have every advantage. And then I see that bleeding into the whole idea that, well, kids cost money and kids are a burden. Why have kids? It kind of is a feeding loop. Well, and what was hard for us growing up is different than what these kids now are growing up with as a hard. And so when you see that for your kids, it hurts as a mom. So you're like, okay, what can I do? I can get you some Nikes or whatever it is to just help them fit or find their place or feel like they have a place just to help boost whatever their heart is. I know. I think that when you're saying that, today's kids are more emotional. There's more of social media than more of a desire to not be bullied or fit in and not say the wrong thing. Because if you say the wrong thing, then you could be bullied about possibly saying the wrong thing. Whereas we were more and played outside and maybe there was more pressure. Like you said, maybe we didn't have as much or maybe there was more pressure on us to play sports or maybe there was more pressure on us to, I don't know. But today's kids, they don't play outside and it's more dangerous for them to play outside than it was for us. I don't know about you, but I'd play outside and then go turn on the hose and take a drink of the hose when I got thirsty. I wouldn't go inside. And now just even having your kid walk to school on their own sometimes is stressful. Well, and we live in this day and age of so much information. Right. And I think that plays a huge role, too. Because we didn't know about the current trends. It was like, what could you get at Kmart or Shopko? Or if you live near a mall. There wasn't these trends and so much information about what's cool and what's not. So I think consumerism is also driving that. Right. Because there is so much information and connection to the world. And do you think it's harder to relate and to be a mom if we don't kind of understand what it's like for our kids nowadays as it was maybe for us? If it was different? Or do you think it's just always been like that? It's always different for moms because the next generation is just a different level. Yeah. I think I probably would lean more towards that. It's just a different heart, a different level, a different whatever. Yeah. That's probably what I would lean more towards. I know. Because it made me think about there had to be this catch-up almost. Computers came out and screen time. And there wasn't any studies about what screen time would do or not. And so kids were on screens. And now we have all these studies on kids' screens until this age or whatnot. It kind of reminds me of my mom. I always thought my mom and dad were both single. They were only children. Okay. And so I always felt like they kind of didn't know what it was like to have a sibling. Yeah. So it was kind of hard for them sometimes to parent in that way because they didn't know what it was like. But they did their best, and they figured it out just like we have to do and kind of roll with the technology that's coming out, I guess. How do you think we can better value mothers as a whole in all roles and as a society? That's a loaded question. I probably don't have a great answer to. But as I thought about that, I could help but think about – oh, it's going to take me a minute. That's all right. Well, it's kind of interesting because we've talked – I feel like a lot of the questions kind of lead into this because as a society, we view the role as mother, I feel, as different than what we do in the church. In the church, we value mothers and their role, generally speaking. In the chapter, there's a lot of quotes by different general authorities just lauding the role of mother and saying how important the role of mother is. And then you look at society and what society says as a mother, and it's a completely different viewpoint. And so it talks about possibilities of how can we support society mothers. Like you said, it's hard when you're in the midst of it to figure out what can I do. So the one thought that I did have that I had lost but is back is we have to figure out a way to talk about and focus on the positivity of motherhood instead of the negativity. And that's going to take a huge movement. I think we are – like you said, those chapters felt very negative to you. And I think that, as a society, is where we focus. It's that negativity of how hard it is to be a mom and how time-consuming and taxing and expensive and blah, blah, blah, blah. That's not very professional, sorry. But where's the joy? Let's promote that. Where's the happiness? Where's the good times? Where's the value of learning the lessons as a mom and the lessons that your kids learn because of it? Where's the connection in that part? How can we build that up? Yeah. And it's kind of like – I think one of the joys I had was when my son was going to have his first child. Being able to say, you don't know what love is until that baby is born. Like you think you're excited, your wife's pregnant, and you're excited to meet. And you are excited, but you don't understand the amount of joy and love that you feel for that child when they're born is something you – at least for me, I never thought I could experience that kind of love. No. And it happens for every child. And it's hard to describe maybe that to people if they haven't had a kid or they haven't – maybe they're on the boat saying, I want to think about my career. I don't want to think about kids. What would you say to somebody maybe? I know I'm kind of throwing this question out in the field for you. What would you say to somebody if they asked you and said, look, I know Amanda and I have been married for a while now. I don't think I really want to have kids. I want to focus on my career. I don't see what kids would do for me. What would you say? Would you say anything to them? Because I know sometimes it's hard to say, oh, yeah, that's your choice. We're kind of supposed to say that, right? Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's your choice. I don't judge you. I love you. Yeah. There's a lot of that right now, right? Yeah. I think if I knew the person well enough and felt like I could say something, I'd be like, there's no reason you can't do both. Right. They are such a gift and such a blessing and such an opportunity. And that gift of love is incredible, to love someone else outside of yourself. Like, you just can't even. It's amazing. I have no words for it. But just that encouragement or like, you know, don't close off all possibilities. You know, two years, yeah, focus on your career and then reevaluate. Yeah. Find ways to get involved in your community. Maybe the schools or what are those other places called? Places that kids go after school to do stuff. Oh, yeah. Get involved there and see how that feels. Like after school programs? Yeah, after school programs. Get involved somehow just to see how that feels. To work with them and to gain their trust and to gain a sense of love over them and helping them. And maybe that would help. I don't know. And I think, too, we talked about how can we support other mothers. I think by doing that, what you just described, by maybe spending time in the community. I know Katie did a thing when she was in elementary school called Girls on the Run. And her leader, one of her leaders one year, was someone who had been married for a long time and didn't think she wanted to have kids, but she wanted to help the community. She wanted to help support other mothers. And I think that's a good quality and that's a good goal to get out there. And if you have the time, support other mothers in the community. It also made me think of there's a lot of single mothers. And there's a lot of mothers that maybe are in different situations from what we are that they just might need an example even of just Christ-like motherhood or how to serve your child. Those are just some of the thoughts that came to me when you were explaining that. And I think when you think about it, being a mother is really important. And being, I think, maybe not put too much pressure on us to be the best mother, but just be a loving mother and be the best that we can be. And the goal being that hopefully our kids will be good parents and pass on some of the things that they like that we did. And hopefully in our old age, take care of us. Or be caring. I think that's the big drawback, or not drawback, but thing I want to draw from. And then just like when we're told to how do you share the gospel best is by being an example. And I think by being an example of and be willing to be there for others in their time of need. And like you said earlier, just listening to what needs help. Anyway, thank you so much Deshawn. You're welcome. I've enjoyed this conversation and I'm glad you agreed to let me interview you for my project. You are very welcome. I was happy to help out. Alright, thank you.
