Episode00255

In this episode of the podcast "Thanks for Sharing," the host, Jackie Pack, discusses the TV series "Shiny Happy People" and the Duggar family. She talks about her initial reluctance to watch the series, but eventually decides to do so with her friend Rachel. They discuss the influence of Bill Gothard and his organization, the Institute in Basic Life Principles, on the Duggar family and the detrimental effects of their teachings. The episode delves into topics of spiritual abuse, control, and the insular nature of the Duggar family's beliefs. The hosts also touch on the concept of certainty and its appeal to individuals who are fearful or uncertain. They highlight the importance of critical thinking and questioning beliefs. The episode concludes with a discussion on the growing trend of survivors of such movements speaking up and finding hope. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Thanks for Sharing. I'm your host, Jackie Pack. On today's episode, and I need to just give a disclaimer, I mentioned this, today, Rachel is joining me again for a podcast recording. And I had mentioned to her that when I invited her to be part of a co-host or to co-host monthly with me on this podcast, my intention wasn't for us to just talk about spirituality and deconstruction and all of that stuff. But the timing of it worked out that that was our first episode because we had just come back from the ITAP symposium and she had presented and then we thought, oh, it should have a second episode. And we aren't straying much from that in this episode. But we will. We will eventually because my intention in having her on wasn't just to talk about this. We have a lot of great discussions. So you'll get to have those as well down the road. But today, let me just give a little bit of a backstory. Whether you have watched Shiny Happy People or not, it's on Amazon Prime. Let me just give you what Amazon says. There's a little snippet about what it's about. So Shiny Happy People, Duggar Family Secrets, a limited docu-series exposing the truth beneath the wholesome Americana surface of reality TV's favorite mega-family, the Duggars, and the radical organization behind them, the Institute in Basic Life Principles. As details of the family and their scandals unfold, we realize they're part of an insidious, much larger threat already in motion with democracy itself in peril. So initially, I saw that it was out. I had a couple of clients ask me about it. I was like, yeah, I'm not watching that. And I don't really even know why. I was just like, yeah, I'm not watching it. And to be honest, I never watched any of the former Duggar episodes. I never saw any of them either. And then I had a client who, you know, it was relevant to the work we were doing. And so I said, okay, I'll go ahead and watch it. And, you know, I watch a lot of things for clients when they request it. And so I didn't know what I was expecting. But it wasn't this. I'll just say, I don't know what I was expecting, but I was a little blown away. So then I saw Rachel and was like, hey, have you watched Shiny Happy People? And she was like, no. And I said, well, I think we need to do a podcast episode and just kind of break it down as two mental health professionals talking about, it's kind of in alignment with what we've talked about the previous two episodes. And, and by the way, it'll be very triggering. But I think you should watch it. Yeah, I think this episode has going to have a lot of trigger warnings. So just disclaimer up front, we're talking about some very heavy, like spiritual abuse that kind of goes into other forms of abuse. Yeah, I mean, I'm a little bit different than Jackie in background on this. I did watch one episode and in the episode that I watched, I watched it with my mom. It was kind of new-ish. I was, I don't know, I was in college. Of the original Duggars. Yeah, of the original Duggars. Which I think at the time was like 16 and counting or 13. I don't know. It was, it was a big number. More than a dozen kids. Yeah, it was too many and counting. And it was one of those things where we, I was at home on a weekend from college and we were like, oh, let's, my mom was like, oh yeah, let's just, let's see what this is. Right. And we both kind of came away from that. And my mom was like, well, I'm not watching that again. That was weird. And I was like, there is something, mom, there's something there. Right. Like there's something going on in that family. It can't be, it can't look like that. And my mom was like, yeah, okay, yeah, maybe. Right. Whatever. We moved on. We never talked about it for years later. Well, and my impression was you just don't have that many kids without, I mean, you know, some level of abuse happening because there's no way, and when we're talking about abuse, let's just use Pia Melody's definition of less than nurturing. You, you can't be nurturing to that many children in the way that they need. Right. So there's parentification happening. Like I was a therapist when that was on and I worked with a lot of people from large families and I was just like, I don't really need to watch something that would be similar to their backstory. Yeah. And I didn't grow up, so I did grow up with some very interesting spiritual foundations, but like the idea of like homeschooling your children or that was so far outside of my family's accepted purview. Like, I just don't think that my, I honestly just don't think my mom had a lot of respect for Michelle Ducker and was just like, yeah, okay, that's like good for her, but birth control is a thing. And at some point, like your body's going to give out, which it does, it does. Right. Her body did give out. And so, yeah, it was just not a thing. It was, I knew of the Duggars. I actually knew of people within IVLP and ATI. I knew of homeschooling kids who used ATI, which if you haven't seen the show, it's the Institute for Basic Life Principles. And then I don't even know what ATI stands for, honestly. Advanced Training Institute. That's what it is. But it's their homeschooling arm. And I did know people that were a part of that or like in the periphery, but it wasn't, right. Like my understanding watching this was kind of like you go there maybe in lieu of summer camp and it's like a really not fun summer camp. Yeah. I mean, they had like, I know that they had like finishing schools for girls to teach them how to be like appropriate etiquette. And I like, you know, there's the paramilitary organization and yeah. So they have like different like summer camps or like you could work for them or like inter labor. Yeah, it was. So there were different like levels in which so you could go for like a week for summer camp or you could go for like months or years doing internships and things like that within the Institute. So, so yeah. So let's kind of break down. So first of all, if you haven't watched it, it is worth a watch, I think. Trigger warning. But very trigger warning up front. And, you know, I think I did a little bit of a, so I made a list as I was going through it. But I also did a little bit of background on Bill Gauthard. So he's the one who wrote, I guess, the IVLP programs. Yes. And his father, Bill Gauthard, Sr. was president of the Gideon organization. Yes. So you think of the Gideon Bibles that are in a lot of hotel rooms. And so Bill Gauthard came from this evangelical Institute, his whole family was very prominent, I guess, in the evangelical movement. And then Bill Gauthard plugged into kind of this zeitgeist of fear amongst people that were having fears based on cultural changes that were happening in America. This is during the 60s. So we've got the advent of rock and roll, women wearing pants, jeans, you know, both men and women wearing jeans. And just this idea that formed in the 60s of kind of this idea of the teenager and teenage rebellion. And that was kind of being put forth mainly through media at the time. And he just tapped into this fear that it was creating for parents, you know, and teaching that America is off of its covenant path, it's straying from its path. And, you know, I mean, you and I are parents, there's some fear that comes with these little creatures that come into our life that we love, and we've got to somehow get them to functional adulthood. Right. And it takes, you know, a lot of years, and we it's a big responsibility. So I can relate to the fear that he was tapping into. But also, to tap in and be like, I got this, I know I can guarantee that your kids are going to be good kids and that you are not going to fail as a parent. Yeah, I mean, there's also which they mentioned some of that in the podcast, like who Bill Gawthard is. But when you look at like the time period, right, we have the civil rights movement, we have women's lives happening. This is when Roe v. Wade got put into place. This is also when the religious majority was put together. This is also when we start to see things like the satanic panic showing up. And child abuse started being recognized as a thing within the United States. It's also when we started recognizing incest as abuse, because before this point, we did not recognize incest as abuse. It was taboo, but not abusive. And so there is some very, there are micro layers of things and prayer was taken out of school at this point. By like teachers could not mandate prayer in school at this point, which again, is some of that like, we see these micro chasms kind of happening. And these very fundamentalist, rich religious groups kind of coming out of that. And Bill Gawthard was had the financial backing and the kind of charisma that fed into that really well. While kind of putting on this fatherly, quiet, calm demeanor that would appear trustworthy, right? Although he never married and never had children. Right. I mean, I think it's interesting, right? I've heard, I did some kind of looking back through and thinking about it. And I remember talking about Bill Gawthard, and it was like Jesus, Paul and Gawthard. And Gawthard never got married or had children on his own, which, again, I think is this very fascinating thing that happens in this micro chasm of religious, culty behaviors. Because he kind of set himself up as a Paul from the Bible, right? Like he had children that he was nurturing, but he himself was not married or had children. And he kind of set himself up as like this prophet or this authority that Paul couldn't do that because he was nurturing all of these things. Bill Gawthard couldn't do that because he's nurturing all these things without any real education in child rearing or I don't know, like family, anything, or personal experience. Right, he had no personal experience in what it's like to raise a tiny human or, you know, be female either. Right, that is true. I just think anytime we try to provide guarantees, it's going to require us to oversimplify. We're hearing a very loud truck in the background. I don't know if you can hear that. But it's going to require us to oversimplify things. And I think anytime we're simplifying fear and uncertainty, thrive on simplicity. And so he could just kind of walk in and master fear, uncertainty, and then he provided this very simple program that people could that parents could follow. And so it wasn't like he didn't, he wasn't a religious, like pastor or something like that. He wasn't a religious leader. But the idea was, get these programs into your church or you adopt it as a parent and take it back and then, you know, spread it to the congregation. And that's how it would grow. And that's how his power and authority grew. Yeah, it was a para church organization, right? So this is another interesting thing that happens within the evangelical community as a whole, or within, I'm not even sure that fundamental Christian fundamentalist Christians would like put themselves within the evangelical community, which again, it's like one of those real lines that we kind of have to play with. But it's a para church organization. So you still have a pastor that you're tithing to, you still have a denomination that you're a part of. But then there's this like, extra thing. And this extra thing has no oversight. Right? There are no checks and balances. The checks and balances are Bill Gauthard. And so there's no, there's no one looking in, who hasn't been raised up in this organization, which I, in general, like, I don't know that para church organizations are necessarily evil, but like, it does leave a lot of room for there to be abuse for there not to be checking checks and balances. And we already see that as an issue within denominations. And to be outside of that kind of authority. One of the participants that I'm not remembering which one and I, I've listened to a couple of interviews they've been on since the documentary aired. So I don't remember if this came from the show, actually, or one of the interviews, but one of them said it sets it up for the family to each family to be its own cult. Yes. That's kind of what you're describing to right is they, they have, you know, they're, yes, they're attending worship services, and they have pastors and all of that. But this program, you know, and we will talk about that in just a minute, we'll get to the umbrella policy. Which, to be clear, like, there's a lot of things within like that Gawthard came up with that were kind of like Gawthard's like mind baby, whatever, that did permeate Christian culture as a whole, or evangelical culture as a whole, even if they didn't prescribe to him and the umbrella thing. I've talked to several people who had absolutely no idea. I mean, I saw that it was a little different graphic, right? Right, very similar concepts. Right. So yeah, that that that is one thing. And, you know, I coming back to that about like it set every father up to be like a cult leader. It does remind me of Amanda Montel's book, Cultish. And when she talks about like, an abusive relationship is a cult of one. And I think when you give someone supreme authority over everyone in the house, that's what you have. Right. Right. And, and, you know, the other thing is, they're not going to teach or expose their, you know, members or their children to ideas that run counter to what the preferred ideology is. And so when these teachings start really young, and then they're enforced within the family, they're enforced within the school, or the church, and then the school curriculum is also backing it up. Like, to me, I'm just like, you don't even have a choice here. Like, why would you even think to question this? It's coming at you from every angle. You just adopt the beliefs. Right. That's how vulnerable children are. Right. And did you watch the village? In fact, someone's the village in a while, but yes. So this reminds me of the village. So like, I actually think that that was a great commentary on fundamentalist families, because like the kids are literally raised to believe that there is a monster in the woods that will eat them. And they don't leave the village, right. And this village has awful things happening. And so it's so bad that one of the kids decides to leave and it's not in Puritan, like the whole movie is set in like a Puritan, like, village, right? From like the 1400s. And right, the very well, I don't want to give if you haven't watched the village, the village. I mean, it's your, it's been out for a long time. It's like 20 years out. But the very end of the movie, right, like they step on onto a paved highway. And you realize like, no, this is modern day. Like they have been like insulated to the point that they didn't realize that there was actually a whole world out there. And one that was heartbreaking, like when I watched that movie, it was heartbreaking, because I was like, Oh, my gosh, like, you have no choices. And that is exactly what happens in this kind of community where everything is insular. Everything is double downed on, right? Like all of the everybody that you know, everybody that you are friends with that you have communication with, like, it's pushed out. Like there at one point in the series, they talk about the fact that they burned everything secular in their house, all their Disney, all of their books, right? Like it was a giant like bonfire, where they burn everything that wasn't like, sanctioned by Gothard. Right. And when you think about that kind of control, Well, but also it's, again, going back to this guarantee, right? It promises peace and a safe space. And people are going to buy into that because they're afraid, right? And so you don't need to you don't need this high control, they'll give it to you, right? Because you are offering them guarantees and peace and safety and power. They'll give it to you. They'll just be like, Yes, I am in. Right. And P. James talks about this in his book, The Sin of Certainty, where he talks about like, certainty is not the opposite of doubt, faith. Right, right. And that, you know, doubt is not the opposite of faith, certainty is. And I think that there is some really, really strong things that happen when we think that we have the answer. Yes, right. And that's really what Bill Gothard thought, whether he thought it or not, that's what he was selling. He was selling. Well, and because of his authority, right, and power, he never had to second guess himself. Right. I mean, also, we should I mean, we don't have to talk with this is a deep dive. We don't have to talk about it today. But at some point, we need to talk about the fact that Americans will literally give anything for charisma. Like we will sell our souls for a charismatic person. Yeah. A couple years ago, I had a guest on he wrote the book. Now I'm blanking on it. Why we elect narcissists and sociopaths. Oh, yeah. And I had the author of that book on and, you know, again, we'll get into critical thinking and stuff like that and how that's misused. But I mean, I do think you know, there's, there's a lot of docu series on right now, you know, this one, Keep Sweet and Pray. Under the Banner of Heaven, kind of looking at a book, it was a book first, looking at, I mean, women talking, I mean, that doesn't take place in America, the original story, right? In the movie, it doesn't necessarily say where it takes place. But I do think we have to, you know, we're recording this on the third of July, I think we have to start looking at and asking ourselves some tough questions about what is happening. That in our country, that allows for the creation of these things. And for these things to gain so much power. Yeah. I mean, even outside. So there's that there's also the podcast, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, which you listen to. And I think that's the thing that the episode like what we did to the women. I was listening to that. And I just was like, I said to my husband, like, I gotta go. And he's like, what? What? It's like, you know, eight o'clock at night. And I'm like, I gotta go. I'm gonna go on a drive. Yeah. And he's like, okay, like, he didn't know I was. I'm just like, I gotta walk away. I gotta go drive. I don't even know where I'm going. He's like, Are you okay? Yeah, maybe. I'll be I'll be okay. I will be back. Yeah. I think that Rachel does this thing to herself where I will like deep dive into these things. And then I'm just like, rage, like, just raging for days. And I can't really explain like, why? This is why. Yeah. But I do think right. One of the things that we are starting to see and it's happened. It's it is happening across the board where the children raised in these ideologies are adults. And which is why we have them, which is why we have these documentaries. Yeah. And I think that that is incredible. Honestly, I think it's incredible that survival, survivals of these movements are willing to speak up and realize that they're not just willing to speak up and realizing that it doesn't have a power over them that it wants to. And I want to save that for the end, because I do want to end on some hope, right? Yeah. And I have also talked about these kids that have lived through mass shootings in schools, these kids that lived through, you know, mass shooter drills. They're also adults. Adults. Yeah. And I, I just love that they're coming of age. And there's going to be a lot of them, unfortunately. But let's save for that. Let's go into this idea of the umbrella authority diagram. Do you want to explain that? Yeah. So the idea is an extreme version of complementarian marriages, where God is above. And then you have the God umbrella, like Jesus is the umbrella, technically, with Bill Gotherd, right? And under the Jesus umbrella is the husband umbrella, or the man umbrella, because technically, it's whatever oldest male is in the room, even if he's five. But there's the umbrella of the oldest male, being the headship or whatever. And then underneath that umbrella is the wife. And underneath her umbrella is the children. But ultimately, right, in order for everybody to be safe from hell's rain, right, you have to be under the umbrella. So like, and there's a there's a chain, right? And yeah, there's a chain of authority. And there's a chain of authority and the umbrellas bandwidth of authority gets smaller. Yes, yes. Right. So like, the kids have no umbrella. The woman is holding a really small umbrella. The woman is holding a really small umbrella, the children have no umbrella. So on their own, they are just... Because they have to fit under there with mom. Yeah, which if you have a lot of kids, that's a lot of kids to fit under one tiny umbrella. But it's okay, because you got that. Right. But right, like, there is a, they don't really talk about this in the documentary, but that there is a belief, right? And I think this is where the rest of this comes from, is that children are born sinful. Right? And so they don't get an umbrella, they have to accept Christ in order to even have an umbrella. So they're under the umbrella of their parents to like control them out of sin, until they're old enough to accept Christ for themselves. And then they're still, you know, under the umbrella under the authority, but they get like their own little tiny umbrella. But yeah, the the idea of this umbrella, right, is that dad ultimately holds all the power of the family. Yeah, and is accountable to Jesus. Right? To Jesus. Because it doesn't, you don't have authority over people above you with umbrellas only below. And yeah, but it's like Jesus, it was technically God as the head, and Jesus is part of that Godhead. And then dad, or husband, yeah. And then underneath that, wife is beholden to dad, and children are beholden to mom and dad, because dad is over them. Right? Right. And then you're all beholden to Jesus. But like, really, dad is beholden to just God. And because God only technically speaks to men in this thing, whatever dad says is divine. Or what other men talk about with dad, right, would also be seen to be coming from God and Jesus. Right. So it's all ordained by God. Right. But right, like, women don't have, children don't have direct access to God, they have to go through mom and dad. Women don't have direct access to God, they have to go through husband. Right. And so, right, like he is the gatekeeper for salvation. Which is where the culty stuff starts to show. Right. And, and we don't, in this belief system, I shouldn't say we, because I'm not a part of it. But like, in this belief system, we do not see autonomy. Right? We see obedience. Right? There's not even a, in fact, they talk about, they touched on this like a fragment of a second, right? But there's a, there's a, not a difference between honor and obedience in this paradigm. Right? Honor is obedience. Obedience is honor. Well, because also, and I wrote this down, like, authority, authority, authority. I wrote that in my note, like, I mean, which is, I mean, I grew up with that too, but it's like watching it, you're like, holy cow, the authority piece here. And it's just a given, right? I mean, it's a given to men. And the other thing that, you know, as I thought about it, you know, for, I don't know, it's been maybe a little over a week since I watched it. What, what that means, right? When authority is just a given to who, this gender, is issues with authority are not considered. Right. It's all about submission. Yes. Right? So the problem comes when people are not submitting, not when authority is misused because authority cannot be misused. Right. I also, I mean, this is, this was part of my deconstruction process, this word submit. But I also get really, this is a personal pet peeve of mine when people are like, well, submitting is not what you think it is. No, submitting is exactly what you think it is. I'm just going to put that out there. I don't care how you spin submission. Right. Submission puts you under someone else aside from yourself. Right. It takes away your ability to be autonomous. And there is a superseding there. Right. Right. Which in some ways dehumanizes you. And I think that that's one of the, and that in and of itself is the issue here is this amount of authority and the requirement of submitting so thoroughly is dehumanizing. Right. I think at one point. But it's also legitimizing to those in authority, to male power. Right. While it's, while it's on the one hand, because uniformity is the key here. Yes. Uniformity, looking alike, speaking alike, thinking alike, dressing alike, looking alike. I mean, down to the like. It's all pleasing to God. Right. Down to the like, women fixing their hair a certain way. I mean, you know, and we see this, I don't know. It's a fascinating thing when you look at modesty and how it's defined by different people groups. But I'm reading a book series, rereading a book series because I've already read it once. But in the book series, the left hand for women is considered to be immodest to be seen. So they like have to cover it with like a glove or a sleeve. And the author kind of did that on purpose. Like there's a whole conversation in which one of the characters who I've quoted on here before is saying like, modesty is like relative. Yes. Like what one culture thinks is modest, the other culture won't. And it is all about like controlling, like you get so hyper focused on you being the problem. Yeah. As the immodest person who's bringing these things on to you that it's impossible for you to say that this is a broken, abusive system. Well, and that's one of the things I wrote down, right, is because what happens to critical thinking is it's turned on you. Yes. And you become highly critical or because somebody else is highly critical and the consequences of you not getting it right are corporal punishment, domestic violence. And so the critical thinking is turned on you. And am I doing it right? Am I looking right? Did I say yes, sir? Did I? All of these things that you never even think to look at the system and be like, maybe, maybe the issue lies here and not with me. Right. I also like I kept using the word like this is slavery. Yes. When I was watching it, it was this is slavery. And I think it was Gerda Lerner, you and I both read that book, The Creation of Patriarchy, right? And she talks about the first group of people that were enslaved were females. Yes. Now, not to the degree we saw black people enslaved, you know, but that's just because they were birthing their children. But the first group of people, mass group of people to be enslaved were females. Right. As wives. I mean, I also think it's really good to clarify that any time a group of people have been enslaved or had, like, express authority over, there have been mass atrocities. And when you look at what, what first women went through, right, like you when you look at the when you look at the Levitical law, right? Like women were allowed to have their breasts cut off, their tongue ripped out. I mean, female babies could be killed on purpose. Right. Right. But but again, I mean, and Gerda Lerner talks about how all of this was in preparation for enslaving males, right? You know, colored males. But before they could before white men could enslave black men, they had to learn how to do it. And where did they learn that? Women. And I also want to talk about this thing, right? Because I think that this is one of those issues that I have when people are like, well, why don't they just do it different? Or why don't why don't they just get out? Right? That's that, like, how could you believe something like this? Yeah, right. Like, I mean, talk about blanket training. Yeah. So they do this thing called blanket training, which is basically, when your child can sit up, which is somewhere around six months, right, that six to eight month range, you put them on a blanket, and then you put something that they desire, like a toy, or like a teething ring, or whatever, you put it outside of the blanket. And then every time they reach for it over that blanket, you hit them, you smack their face, or you smack their hand, right? But you're hitting them and saying, No, no, no, no, you're not obeying mommy. As a way of saying, stay in this square. Right. And that's happening at six to eight months. Right. And I mean, Michelle Duggar talks about this on the show. She also talked about it at IBLP seminars that she was teaching and stuff like that. But like, this is not just the Duggars. This is the entire IBLP organization. This is a lot of evangelical and fundamental home. And this is not just a Christian thing, or like, right, like this idea of supreme authority over children. Right. And this, I mean, children are property. And I mean, again, when we look at this idea of submitting, right, it is all about learning the wishes and desires of the authority figure. So and we don't question like it's unquestionable authority. Right. And so the the job of the infant or, you know, the person who is supposed to submit is to learn by look by like, just to read that authority figure and be pleasing. Yes. And right, like, and it happens really early in the in the documentary. There's a woman that talks about her 14 month old was just being willful. Right. And so she spanked him all day. She's spanking him all day. And I'm like, oh, my God. Right. Like, oh, and I mean, also, the like fusing, right, like you and I were talking about this earlier, like the fusing of like, love and fear and abuse. Right. Like when we the the guy that like, demonstrates spanking, spanking is an issue for me in general, for personal and professional reasons. Like, we have enough brain research to show that it is not effective. We just do. We have and we've had that layers of that for 30 years now. Right. Right. And why we keep going back to it as like an appropriate form of educating our children is appalling to me. But we know that spanking is abuse. The brain reads it as abuse. And so this guy is like basically spanking this child spanking. Right. Which is physical abuse, because if we were to do this to an adult, it would be assault. And he's demonstrating. Yeah, he's demonstrating. So it's not a little like with the full force of an adult male. But but the whole thing is that that is how you're doing it. Right. This is just some random boy. Yeah. It's also like complete stranger touching this kid. But the kid knows what he's supposed to do. Yeah. And he like leans over. Right. And he but like it was and while he's spanking him, he's saying loving things. Right. Like God's hand is on you, which that one got me that way. Right. Like you're spanking a child and telling him God's hand is on your life and how much you love him and that this is for his own good. And that, you know, all this kind of stuff. And then he finishes. And this is the part that like ripped me, like ripped me in half. So they finish and he's like, OK, give give dad a hug. So kid gives dad a hug. And he's like, oh, you weren't fully putting your love into that hug. So I'm going to thank you again until you can love me like I think you should love me. Right. So then he thanks him again and goes through the whole thing again. And then the kid like has to like fully like embrace and snuggle into him, which he the kid actually does. Right. To this strange man, which again is going against what your body feels. So you do have to disconnect from your body in order to make them happy. Right. It is learning to appease the authority figure or the abuser. Right. By sacrificing and disconnecting from your own body. Right. Which again, is this whole level of like at two, three, four, five, we have taught children how to dissociate. Right. I mean, for this woman, 14 months, 14 months, 14 months, this child with this will. This has to be broken. Right. There's also I mean, they talked about like I think there's a woman in there who talks about like her husband finally breaking her. Right. Which I mean, to me, I'm like, because I sometimes will say, I mean, one of the problems with thinking is they're going to outgrow your ability to thank them because, you know, they're going to be bigger than you or they're just as strong as you. But, you know, I mean, some of the interviews I listened to, they were like, oh, no, no, let's be clear. I was spanked well into my teen years. I think it was Tia that talked about like wife spanking, which, yes, is on a more extreme continuum. But the fact to me that in 21st century America, wife spanking is a thing and taught or like, yeah, yeah, there isn't actually an end to that for some. Right. And she said that, right, like the authority of the father over the girl child, the female child passes from the father to the husband. Right. On the wedding day. On the wedding day. And because she is under that umbrella. Right. She is a child to him. And so he has the ability if she is too willful, if she has too many of her own thoughts, he has the permission to discipline her in the ways that he sees fit. Yeah. One of the interviews I was listening when Tia was talking, she said, you know, after the documentary aired, she's like, my inbox was flooded with emails from women saying basically me too. Oh, God. So I'm like, oh, this is bigger than. Yeah. Then Tia. Right. This. Oh, oh. I mean, how difficult has it been for us to get laws passed for domestic violence? Right. Like as therapists, we are not we are mandated reporters for child abuse and elderly abuse, but spousal abuse. We are not. No. Right. And like we have. And a lot of times getting out of that is just put on the woman who's in danger and usually doesn't have power or resources like money. Right. And I mean, yes, power and resources in and of themselves. But like, we don't have enough other resources for that. Right. Right. Right. Shelters are full. And a lot of people, if you have 12 children. Right. How are you going to take 12 children to a shelter without your husband knowing? Uh huh. Right. It's just there's just so many layers. Right. And eventually our system expects you to then provide for them. Right. Provide by doing what? Right. Like they have been homeschooled in curriculum that does not prepare them in any way. Right. And I mean, they talked about that, like what boys can learn is different than what girls can learn. Right. So it's not even equal education. Right. But they're homeschooling curriculum, which this kind of it shows, but it doesn't go into depth. Right. But it's not an education that is going to get you a job that provides for you and your children. Right. And there's this level right where I mean, they said this in the documentary. Right. One of the girls wasn't taught anything above fractions because that's all she needed to bake. To bake. Yeah. Right. And again, absolutely appalling to me. But this level of systemic undermining the human body is rampant. Right. And so when you when you by the time you get to adulthood in the system, you're already broken. You already believe that you will die in this system and you will either be broken by the system. It will break you like you will either be broken by the system or you will be murdered by the system like that. That's it. Right. Those are your options. And the guy who wrote the they talk about a book called like Train Up a Child or. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Train Up a Child. Which he's from Idaho. Michael Pearl, which, by the way, has no like. No education in early childhood development or anything like that. He doesn't need it. He's got God's authority. He's a man. I'm like, I think one of them said maybe it was Brooke said the confidence of white mediocre men is going to kill us all. Right. I do think that there's also this level right where he's literally teaching people how to abuse their children and get around state. Yes. Yes. Yes. That that one was absolutely appalling to me. Right. And make sense. Right. And yes. And he even talks about like you break it, you break a human the same way you break it down. Right. You beat them into submission. Right. The fact that we can even let someone can say that and not immediately be questioned or immediately be like canceled is appalling. Well, and this gets into I mean, it sets them up to just expect abuse in their marriage. Like, just expect it. Right. Like, I mean, I most of them, you know, the females who are participating didn't necessarily talk about their religions others or their relationships outside of Tia who got out of the abusive marriage. But, you know, I mean, with her life, fortunately, because that seemed to be a harrowing experience that she just kind of, you know, did a very high level summary of with her and her five children. But even leaving, I would imagine they're they're set up for abusive relationship after abusive relationship until they figure this all out. Because that's what they've been trained to see as normal. Right. Which, again, is this layer. Right. We're really talking about spiritual abuse today, which I think is different. And I want to be absolutely clear. We are talking about a spiritually abusive system. And religious trauma. And religious trauma. And that is separate from spiritual deconstruction in a lot of ways. However, when spiritually abused people start to deconstruct, this is one of the things they have to deconstruct is this belief that I have And let's call it deconstructing. Yes. Right. Like that I deserve abuse. That I somehow was sinful and broken enough as a six month old infant that I deserved this. Something that inherently wrong with me as a female. Yes. And I mean, the amount of like. To me, this is the the double standard and hypocrisy that happens within the Duggars and happen within fundamental like these fundamental culty kind of things where there's so much authority given to men that like the female body isn't the female body isn't her own. Right. She is responsible for how her body that is not her own affects the men in her life. And right. Sexual abuse is basically your fault because you obviously did something to ask for it. Right. This is where purity culture and rape culture like line up. Yes. They're the same at the same point, which I think, again, I want to just before we move to this one, I just want to say, I think both of us are saying men in these systems are given way too much responsibility. More than any one human being should be given. And they're given it over people that they don't technically have control over. Right. And so, of course, abuse enters the scene. Right. Also, that's the only way you're going to gain control over them is through abusive tactics. Right. And before we move on to the sexuality piece, like one of the things that stood out to me and like it was heartbreaking and then like the rest of the podcast, the docu series happened. And then I was like, oh, yeah, I need to go back to that. Jim Bob had because he was so. Married to this ideology, he was working three jobs. Yeah. And trying to make minimum wage, they were struggling, they were I mean, like. He did not have the capacity to support the family that he had and all of that responsibility fell on him. Right. Right. So there is a part of me that's like Jim Bob did what anybody's going to do to try to help their family survive. Like, was he highly manipulative? Yes. Was there a lot of abuse in that? Yes. He's both a villain and a victim in the system. Right. Because that's and I think and yes, I think that there is a personality, a type of personality that gets attracted to this kind of thing. The pressure that we put on men to have responsibility over other human beings that they can't actually control or shouldn't. Right. And and then like the response. Right. This is on a very. And let's just say like the responsibility they are given is they are responsible to God for everything that happens in their household. Yes. And I just think weird things begin to happen when somebody is given that level of responsibility and accountability. Right. They are going to need everybody to conform and comply. Yes. And the way you do that is through abuse and violence. And also, like, I do want to recognize, like, the amount of pressure that that creates. Right. We have a pandemic in this country where men are taking their own lives. Right. Like they're dying by suicide because that pressure is too much. It is. And we don't talk enough about how patriarchy harms males. Right. And I mean, this is one of those. Right. Exactly. We don't we don't talk about how we have set up an impossible system and we keep breaking people to fit the system instead of breaking the system to fit people. Yes. And this I mean, this wasn't I don't think this was spoken in the docu series, but it is one of the unspoken messages. Right. Which is there's one one way to be masculine. Yes. And there's one way to be feminine. Yes. And that's it. Right. It's very uniform. Like, there is no individuality in this. Right. Which also means you're you're pretty interchangeable. Yeah. Right. Like, if you're not doing it, somebody else will do it the exact same way you would do it. Right. Which I mean, to me on some level is saying there's nothing special about you. Right. You're just a functioning hog. And that's depressing. Right. Like that that causes all sorts of mental health issues. Also, goes against the entirety of what we believe. Mm hmm. If you are in like, right, if you're talking about like, Genesis and Christianity, and like, when you're looking at the belief systems within that it is that we were created in God's image as human beings, that we hold some kind of sliver of divinity, like we have a soul, or other parts of creation, do not write this is a very, these are very like, Christian beliefs. And yet, so we, these are gifts that we are given by God, supposedly. And we do not get to use them. Because if we use the gifts that were given to us by God, then that would be giving into the carnal nature to sin to sin. And so like, what kind of mind fuckery is that? Right. Like, that's just like, you can't, what do you do with that? Which is so hard. And when you're looking at this, like, it's very 1984 ish, right? In the way that we are whitewashing the entirety, literally whitewashing, because when you watch the videos, there are very few minorities in those crowds. There are very, right. We are making this the ideal, it's very Aryan nation. Covenant Pass. Yeah. For America. Yeah, it's very, it's terrifying when you kind of look at just how like, these are the roles, these are the boxes that we will give you. And if you don't fit into these boxes, for whatever reason, then you're going to hell. Right. And we have states currently, who are trying to get rid of or they're advocating, we have politicians, I think some of them are in Arkansas, right, that are trying to roll back child labor laws, that are trying to, you know, say that the separation of church and state in this country was always misunderstood. And that's not what our founding fathers meant. And there should be no separation between church and state. And the political movement in these groups is also terrifying. Yes. Terrifying. Right. I mean, and that's another thing, too, right? These are people who co-opt our founding fathers to be Christians, they're not. I'm just going to put that out there. If you actually read any of the founding fathers, primary material, they are not Christians, they are deists, they believe in God, but they're not Christians. And specifically, nor did they want this country to be a Christian nation, which is the popular belief among some today, which was what Britain was and why we got away. Right. Right. Like, to be clear, Britain was using God authority to tax and torture. It was a church country. Right. So there was a national religion. It still is. Right. To be clear, the UK is still a Christian nation. The Queen, or sorry, King, there's a King now. We're all still sad about that. Is the head of the church. Right. Right. He's basically the UK Pope. So, yes, there is a very specific reason that that was done. And it was to stop things like this from happening. And yet, we also have freedom of religion, which is a giant loophole that a lot of this stuff gets fed through. Yeah. Um, let me look at my list here. Oh, so we were starting to move into this fear of the burgeoning female sexuality. Oh, God. And kind of this idea that female sexuality needs to be repressed, it needs to be suppressed, it needs to be ignored and refused at all costs, until you're married. Yes, but even until you're married, right, like, I feel like this is one of those spaces where even even what was being said in the documentary and how they address female sexuality, wasn't that female shouldn't be sexual, it's that men own female sexuality. Yeah, right. Because like what happened in terms of Josh Duggar and his sisters? Yeah, it was sad, but like, at no point do they really talk about what that did in terms of like, the girls and how that affected their, you know, purity or whatever. And at one point, And most of the female participants were like, look, this was the Duggars, they were on TV, this happened in a lot of families, this is very mainstream. Right. So it wasn't to me, this is not the space of like, it's just a very fascinating thing, right? Because there's this line that even with Bill Gothard, right, like, there was sexual abuse that was happening. But he was very careful if virginity was intact. And, but he also sought that. But he sought that, right. So there's this level of like, virginity holds its own power in the female soul or whatever, that like, supersedes the woman. And sexuality isn't necessarily an issue for women, except for the fact that we have to like, you know, buffer male advances. But then dress and look and talk a certain way so that we can not tempt men. Right. But it's very obvious in the way that it is talked about in the way that it is used in the way that like the Duggar sisters were put on camera to defend their brother, right? Oh, yeah. Female sexuality is used as a tool to benefit men, either for, because like that broke Jill and Jeff. There were a lot of things that came at them for, for putting that out there that they didn't even really have choice or control over. And, and like, they reaped the problems of that they were literally thrown under the bus at that, but it benefited the males in the family. And so, of course, we're going to put you on like you are a sacrificial lamb that we will slaughter for this hill. I mean, it's that belief that female bodies, right, again, going back to that umbrella graphic that female bodies belong to the church. Yes. And it's leaders. Yes. Right. Men. Yes. And I mean, that thinking, absolutely, they're groomed to be victims. Yes. Right. I mean, it's one to not think anything of it, like by that time, so much has happened to them. They're like, whatever. Like, I mean, it is one of those things like Gail Dines talks about men are not life supports for an erect penis. But I do think the, the tenant of purity culture is that women are a life support for male pleasure and their uterus. Right. Like, there's no, you're not allowed to have anything else outside of them. Right. And it's heartbreaking to see how much of it is used in that way. And then again, you can abuse people if you dehumanize them. And if you give people authority over people, like Josh was the oldest, right? So he had authority over all of the female children underneath him. And it's unchecked. It's like that male authority is unchecked power, right? When unchecked power, when there's a dynamic of unchecked power, abuse is going to happen. Right. I mean, come on guys, Spider-Man taught us this. With great power comes great responsibility. But yeah, it's unchecked. The other thing that they talked about too is that culture of you cannot speak ill of your authority figures or the church leaders. Right. There's no way in that system and those teachings that a victim is going to come forward. And if they do, they're told to be submissive. Your job is to be submissive. Right. I mean, there's that layer. Also, there's a whole homeschooling curriculum thing in there where they're literally basically lining out all of the ways that a sexual assault victim did that fault. Oh, yes. Right? And one girl talks about they did a female Bible study about this in which they went around the room and talked about all of the advances that they had made to them and why it was their fault. Right? And they were making concessions. They showed like dresses, right? Because they couldn't wear pants. The women couldn't wear pants. So they're dresses. I'm like, I'm pretty sure like back in the day when I was young, my mom had me take sewing lessons. Right? I'm like, I'm pretty sure those are like the pictures on patterns. They are. Yeah, they are. They're simplicity patterns. Right. And they're called eye traps. And you're supposed to circle where are the eye traps for males. Right. On this simplicity dress. I'm like, I don't think simplicity has immodest patterns, but okay. Also, I'm just going to say this, because as someone who, who really thinks that like dressing appropriate to the culture is really important, regardless of modesty, right? So like, if you're going to a ballet, please don't wear a baseball cap. Sure. When you make modesty, the stamp of this is who we are for women, the amount of mental leaps that you have to go through in order to create that modesty draws attention. Right. You're not drawing attention. And this came up with like, this is my like side note about the pilgrim collars or whatever, like, because that was a whole thing for them. When you don't follow the normal fashion culture of the mainstream. Right. You are calling attention to yourself. And I can like for people outside of your little echo chamber, or their little echo chamber. The attention that you're calling is not the attention you want to be called. And I'm not saying it's like rape culture, attention, like they're questioning your belief. Right? Like I, I do that. I'm, I am guilty of that. Right. When I see anything that's different, like that's, that's human existence in some ways. Right? Like our brain works to find the thing that is different and then question that. Now, some of that is questioned like, oh, that's really cool. Like, I would never think about putting that outfit together. That's cool. Or like, I wonder what culture that comes from. Or like, I wonder if that has like religious significance or whatever. But then there is some of that where you're like, oh, I know where that is. Right. My, my great grandmother was in a denomination that did not believe in wearing makeup or cutting hair. They had to wear dresses to their ankles. Right. And which is insane because this is also the woman that is super sassy and very right. You've, you've probably heard me quote her a lot because she's adorable. But like, she was part of that. She wasn't allowed to wear jewelry other than a wedding ring. And, and like, there is a level to this day, there is a level when I see someone dressed in that way, I think about all of the abuse and all of the manipulation and all of the like emotional turmoil that I know my grandmother went through. And like, it gives a message, whether you think it does or not. Right. Lindsay, Lindsay at one point talks about through ATI, she says, all my freedoms and rights were slowly being taken away from me. And she says it became a world I lived in, of all the things I could not do. Yeah. Again, when we turn that critical eye on ourself, and we are checking ourselves against all the things I cannot do, and am I doing that? Or do I want to do that? Right. We don't have the energy to turn that critical eye on the system. Right. I also it makes me think of like, when you look at literature and how much literature has like girls coming of age, like boys coming of age, they get to be like superheroes or Spartans or like, I don't know, right? Like they get to do really cool stuff, like go on adventures. When women come of age, they're terrified to get their period. Right? If you look at like Jane Austen stuff, or like, the Book of Longing is when Anna comes to age, there's this like, they're hiding it and burning it and like stuffing their rags in pots and like trying to hide the fact that they become a woman. Even this is even addressed in the new Mulan, the live action Mulan, where she's allowed to train with Qi, with the energy until she becomes a woman. And then that is like literally cut off from her. Yeah. Right. This is why. Because being a child. Well, and prior to I mean, when we look back at like authors who are writing books, and they're studying their archaeologists, they're studying like, that time period when Christianity, well, when patriarchy came into being, right? Right. Christianity was part of that, right. But prior to that, there was female power. Yes, there were female gods, there was female power, right. And so the suppression and repression of any female power. Yes. And let's be clear, that was systemic. And that was on purpose. Yes. Right. We know that females were priestesses in, in Greek, in Greece, in the age of antiquity. We know that. We know that they had the power to talk to God. So they had some pretty heavy power. Right. That has been completely whitewashed out of his or taken out of history. But the Christian church systemically cut out female power. Right. And we watched that. You can watch it through history, if you're paying attention, right. I mean, the fact that it says, and this is maybe a side tangent, but the fact that, you know, God in Christianity is male, and God created everything, right. And there's no, like, there's no, there's no female in creation, right? When you stop and think about it, you're like, wait a minute, right, something's missing here, the one who can actually create life in their body is not represented here. Right. And I think it's really interesting, too, when we look at it. Yes. Right. And, and we do know that there were female goddesses attached to Yahweh or Allah or God, before this kind of like purging happened in early, what we would consider like Genesis, or the early beginnings of the Torah, whatever. And that is what the Inquisitions and the Crusades and right, the Crusades were specifically against Muslims, but it was also against women during the time. And I mean, witch hunts, right, like, you can, when you look at what the Vatican has in their secret files, or in their like, Vatican files, that they hold around the purging of witches in Germany, before Martin Luther, it's insane. And then after Martin Luther, that upped the ante, because people were trying to prove that they were either Catholic or Lutheran. And so women became the target of that. And I think the one that hit me the most is I recently read a book called The Immortal Key, which is not about this, but because he's, he's talking about something else, but the main focus, but he talks about the fact that when the temples were burned, when Christians burned Greek temples, they weren't burning temples, they were burning libraries, because that is where all of the books and scrolls and knowledge were kept. And he, I mean, and he kind of says, like, we don't know. But they cherry picked the information that they took out of those temples, and they burned the rest. Right? Right. Like, we systemically cut women out of power. And whether it's, you know, whether you're part of a Judeo Christian religion or not, that is what America is founded on, right? We are founded on puritanical belief. We are founded on patriarchal beliefs that were created, right? Like, these were like, inferred so far back, that it's just taken for granted now. And that's, it's been so hard to get laws around marital rape, and so hard to get laws. I mean, like, we can't even agree what consent looks like in this nation, or how to teach it to our kids. Right? Right. And that's, that's because we stopped seeing women as human. I, back when, this would have been 2007, probably. So back when Barack Obama was running for president, but initially, he was running against Hillary in the primary, the Democratic nominee, right? And I was having a conversation with a black friend of mine, male, black friend of mine. And I was saying, you know, it's so interesting. Like, this setup, white woman, black male, which was also our dynamic, right? And friends. And I was like, I just, I'm so curious, like, as a country, are we more racist? Or are we more sexist? Right? Because it's not a black female, it's a black male, right? So, like, I just, I'm, I'm just like, what, what's it? And he was like, are you kidding me? And I was like, what, what do you mean? Like, isn't this like, so perplexing to you? And he's like, Jackie, black men got the right to vote before white women. He's like, black men were three fifths of a person. You were property. And I was like, Oh, and he's like, Barack Obama will win the nomination, we are far more sexist, because we don't even know we are. He's like, I'm not saying we have solved racism. But we don't even talk about sexism. Yeah. And I was just like, I hope he's wrong. Yeah, yeah, let's just look at what Hillary has gone through. Yeah. Since then, I'm like, Oh, dare she think that she could hold that power. And I want to be clear, it's not just Hillary. Right? Right. Because I, because I know this argument, right? Like, that Hillary is a Clinton and she's corrupt and blah, blah, blah, whatever. Yeah, but her husband could still hold power twice. Yeah, I know. That's the whole thing. But look at what happened to Sarah Palin. Right. Right. Like Sarah Palin was literally set up as the like, feminist poster child for the Republican Party, and they ate her alive when her child got the general election. John McCain did not even want her, right, but was forced into that. Right. But yes, which again, like, regardless of policy, right, regardless of policy, the way that they ripped Sarah Palin to shreds, when her daughter got pregnant. And like, right. To me, it's just one like, again, this is that power and control and authority, right? Yeah, she was 17. You can't control a 17 year old sexuality. Right. Right. Come on, guys. Like, you just can't. And but yeah, she was literally raked over the coals for that. And then there was the whole pro life pro choice thing that came up and right and her daughter didn't really get a choice on whether or not she was going to have kids. Right. Right. It was so public and like, and I, I should and because their moms on the Republican ticket, right. And so like, so much choice, right, so much choice was was about how it fits the machine, and not how it fits the individual. And you see that in the dark community, like, yeah, women are chewed up by this machine, right. And I mean, again, the rape culture versus purity culture, right? Like, we're talking about a man who is obviously a predator, who has no wife and no children, who is literally taking an underage women and grooming them. Yeah, which a lot of grooming didn't have to happen, because they've been groomed by their fathers before they even got to their mothers. And their mothers, and their mothers, with the with the permission of their mothers, right. And so and again, I mean, right now, it doesn't look like I mean, grooming, definitely Bill Goffard was grooming, right? There hasn't been anybody who has stepped forward and said it went beyond grooming. In my mind, I'm like, you know, that's there. Yes, there is. There has not. I think there's been only one formal accusation of rape. Okay. But sexual assault? Yes. Sexual touching? Yes. Sexual touching? Yes. Right. And so and the documentary itself was very discreet. I think in because the survivors were coming forward and telling their stories, they did a very good job of like holding that without any of that being like exhibitionist, right and the abuse. And the point that I kind of take from that is like, this is not just Bill Goffard, right? Robbie Zacharias, who was another prominent evangelical apologist, after he died. I mean, I mean, and this is the thing that is sad to me. It's like, after he died, the the nondisclosure agreements lapsed. And so they were just women coming forward about things that they had experienced under him. And, right, like, this this happens when you give this kind of authority without trying to balance it. Right. And the potential victims have their voice has been taken away. Right. I mean, like, and that's the other thing, too. And that was the thing that stood out to me about the Duggars thing, right? Like, they had those friends, the Holtz, who wouldn't, was it White or Holtz? I don't remember. I can't remember. That were told, because their daughter was dating Josh. Courting. Courting. Dating. Because I have issues using the word courting. But no, they were courting, right? And basically, Jim Bob was like, yeah, we weren't going to tell your daughter until after she was already, like, married. And right. Like, ooh. But then they go to the they actually went to the sheriff. Right. This is the part that, like, killed me. The parents of the daughter. The parents of the daughter and Jim Bob. Right. Right. They went to the sheriff. And filed a report. About the molestation and all of that with Josh. And the sheriff's like, I'm going to give you a pass this time. Right. I want to be clear. There are no laws. And then the father of the girl, right? I can't remember his first name, but he says, like, turns out later, we find out that the sheriff is a good friend of Jim Bob. Yeah. Right. And so it's just like, it's a whole thing. And I and you and I, you and I started talking about this before we hit record. And again, they talk about this in the docuseries, like, Michelle and Jim Bob were aware of Josh's molestation of his sisters before they invited a film crew to come in and film their family and do kind of this reality TV show. Right. And I mean, they kind of hit on like, the, like, the gall, the, the narcissism of Jim Bob to think, I can invite a film crew in to make a reality TV show of my family and keep this hidden. Right. And I think that that was the thing that was so fascinating to me, is that we what we what we as America as a nation saw on TLC. A lot of this stuff had already happened. Like the sheriff, they had already gone to the sheriff before the show ever started. Yeah. Right. So it's one of those things where you realize like, and the tragedy, like, because I think somebody in the show, this is in the Duggar show, but they show the clip in this docuseries, where they ask Michelle's mother of Josh, because he's sent off to this treatment ATI thing, right, which is not the consequences that need to happen. They ask her like, What did you say to your son? Did you talk to your son? And she says, No, I talked to I talked to God. Yeah. To me, I'm like, I mean, first of all, going back to the umbrella, she doesn't have the authority to talk to Josh. Right. But secondly, to me, I'm just like, I mean, I couldn't, they don't say this in the show. But to me, I'm like, before we because I think in America, we are really good at villainizing people. Mm hmm. Out of context. Yes. And as I'm watching that, I'm thinking, Josh was blanket trained. Yes. Josh was told that as a man, he could not control sexual urges. Yes. And if a woman, you know, had any eye traps for him, it was her fault. Right. Like he was raised in this culture that said, sexually as a boy, you're uncontrollable. Yes. She has to control it all. Yeah. Well, and that's, I mean, it's one of those things to like, right, you and I have talked about this. Mixed with, sorry, I just, I'm going to interrupt. Mixed with the lack of genuine affection children need. Yes. Because that was not happening. Right. Or that fusion of love and abuse. Yes. I'm like, that kid was set up and his parents distanced themselves. And to me, I'm like, how dare you distance yourself from this situation that you created? Right. I mean, this is what we like to believe as Americans, right, that we are solid, that we are in a vacuum, that all of all of our mistakes are because we fail, right? Like it's an in fundamentalist Christianity, it's because of your sin nature. Mm hmm. That we obviously tried to beat out of you because so so like, that's your fault, because you didn't let go of it, no matter how much we tried to beat it out of you. But what neuroscience tells us, right, is that we are pack animals, that we function as a community, that our brains literally like, the majority of our brain, the biggest parts of our brain are relational parts of our brain. Right. And so, no, we don't become monsters in a vacuum. Right. Right. Monsters are not born, we are made. Uh huh. And when you see an adult who has started really, really early in predator behavior, that is a family issue. Yes. Right. And I mean, I'm, I'm a true crime person. I know you're not. But there is, I mean, sometimes when I, you know, am thinking about true crime, the cautionary tale I would give is that ease in which we assign psychopathy. Yes. To individuals, because I think that is dangerous. Yes. Where we, first of all, we make them brilliant psychopaths, which I don't think is generally true. Right. But it also divorces us another step from looking at the system and looking at things systematically. And instead, we make it about like, this person is just a psychopath, like born that way. Mm hmm. Instead of created. And with a lot of, you know, true crime, when you go back into the story of the serial killer, or back into the story of this horrible person, there is a story. Mm hmm. This person was created. Mm hmm. But we don't, we just kind of put psychopathy on them, which first of all, you know, there's not that many psychopaths out there. Secondly, the general public is not able to distinguish between, you know, genetics and D and their DNA versus their learning environment and experiential environment. Yes. I also think in all of that, right. We, and I think that this is one of the downfalls of psychology is that we really, really, really want to believe that everything falls into black and white categories. Right. Right. And you and I work in a space where diagnosis is a guideline. Mm hmm. And if you... And I often say when I'm training new therapists, diagnosis is helpful as far as it is helpful. Yeah. It can also be very destructive. Right. And I think that we as a society like labels, we really like to be able to say, this is what this is. Mm hmm. And therefore this, this and this, which is, again, the sin of certainty, right? Like it is that... Go back into that when we're oversimplifying things. But human beings are incredibly complex. Right. And when you're working with, like when you see the abuse and, and I want to be clear, like there's a lot of abuses that happen within the system, within the IVLP system, within the doctor system. But the first abuse is co-opting God and eternity as the ultimate authority. Right. Because if, and one of, one of the interviewees, she says this, when hell is a real place that you can go and not an imagined reality, you get in line. Mm hmm. Right. There is, there is something very visceral to be said about the way that we use eternity as a weapon on children. Children don't even have the concept of like... Time. Time. Right. Like I say to your kid, we're leaving in five minutes. They don't know what that means. I mean, I would, my husband and I were going on a date night on Saturday night and we had told our child that her baby sister would be showing up at five. So at 10 and 1130 and two, she was like, how much longer do I have? What do I, like, do I need to be getting ready? Do I have, and we were just like, no, it's at five. Right. And we like showed her. Nope. No, no concept. Right. Two hours. Might as well be two minutes. There is no level of understanding how time passes for a child. We, when my kid, my two youngest were, I mean, my youngest, I think was maybe three. We went to Arizona. So her older sister would have been like six, the one right above her and trying to explain the difference between Arizona and Utah when they have no concept of states. Yeah. It's impossible. Right. So we go to Arizona. My sister was living there. We went and visited her. We come back and there was like a ultimate electronics store that was by us that we, you know, drove past frequently. And back then they had this tall structure out front and it had a red ball on the top of it. And my six year old thought that was Arizona. Because why not? Right. And so she would, we would pass and she'd be like, can we go to Arizona again? And I'd be like, well, it's a long drive. You kind of struggle. She struggles not being entertained, right. Or moving. So that was a long drive for all of us. And she's like, no, it's right there. And I'm like, how can I explain to her that I don't know why she believed this red ball at the top of the structure was Arizona. Right. And then my youngest had an imaginary friend after that trip. You know, she thinks my six year old believes this ball is Arizona. And my youngest now has an imaginary friend in Utah. Yet frequently came to dinner. Right. And we had to welcome Utah. Right. Because in her mind, she doesn't even understand we live in Utah. Right. She's just like, oh, Utah's here. You didn't set a date, a dinner plate for Utah. And I'm like, let me do that right now. Because how do you explain that? Right. It's a very hard kind of best friend in college who was really confused crossing the Georgia and Alabama state line because she expected there to be a white line. Right. Right. Something. Something. Something to me. Now they usually have a sign. Yes. But back then it was like, wait, this is all it is. There's nothing. How would you know otherwise? Yeah, it's just more wood. Yeah. So like I write. So when you're like teaching kids about burning in hell for eternity and yeah. And they don't even really get the concept of the 20 minute Mr. Rogers TV show that they're writing like that is abuse. Right. And it's very real and it's very heavy. And so you're layering that on top. Like, it's just it's just systemic abuse layered on top of systemic abuse. Right. Like, you can't get out from under that. Right. And everybody and everybody around you has already bought into it. Yes. Right. So there's no. And I think that's the other thing. Right. When you leave. You lose everything. Yes. Because the people who are in it are so married to it that when you leave, you lose that. And Jill Duggar talks about that a little bit. Right. And she's on very strange terms with most of her family. And I'm sure that this interview did no damage to that. I mean, Tara Westover talks about that in her book Educated that like in order to tell her story, she had to just completely remove herself from her family. Yeah. And I think that that's true for a lot of people who leave the system is that they they have to they have to be willing to let that go. And one of I think it was Tia that said that one of the things that you need to understand when you leave the system and you're flopping around like a fish out of water, like there will be people to catch you. Yes. Right. There are people out here to catch you. Yes. People you don't know who will show up or step in and serve a healthier role in your life. Right. Chad, at the end, this is where the docuseries ends. He says, you know, he's talking about what we what we were taught and then what we didn't realize. He said, we had this power the entire time over the people who were hurting us as much as they tried to control us. We were ultimately what they most feared. And all we had to do was talk. Yeah. And to me, that's where, again, it comes back to, you know, how does deconstruction start? It starts with you talking. It starts with you asking some questions. It starts with you reconnecting to your body and saying, this doesn't feel good. Or I have so much anxiety. Where is this coming from? Because anxiety comes from our environment. Right. And it gets trapped in our bodies. And, and so again, to me, it just, it starts with your voice, which is how the control also started with silencing that. Yeah, I, I think that that's one of the things as a collective, as a generation, we're starting to see people, I mean, that's what the Me Too movement was, right? It's literally just people telling their stories. And the more that we tell our stories, the more that we recognize, like, we're not buying this narrative, and we're not allowing you to silence us. Like you lose power in that. Right. And you as a person gain power. There's somebody else with a similar story. Yeah, you as a person gains power in that. You gain your own autonomy in owning your story, which is, you know, Brene Brown talks about that. And this is an extreme version of that. But it also, like, when the voices of the people who survive are louder than the one voice that created the abuse, it silenced the abuser in a big way. Right. And I think that that is, that is how we are going to change the narrative, how we raise children, and how we do faith, and how we, you know, interact with women, and how I mean, that is how we change everything is we start talking and listening and believing people's stories. And saying, like, how do we do better? Because the reality is, humanity can do better. We have watched, you and I watch people grow and do better. And if we as humans do that as a society, humanity will do better. And I think that that's the beautiful part of this is it only, yeah, like, it's that whole, like, Bill Gothert is a monster. And he, he did create a system that broke a lot of people. But in them putting themselves back together, they're speaking about it, they're talking about it. And they're changing the narrative of their own story in that process. I think that's just amazing and powerful. And I have so much respect. Which is what a lot of people don't factor in that human ability for resilience. I know, right? Human beings are amazingly resilient. Yeah, they're amazing. We are amazingly resilient as a species. And the support I usually say it's, it's going to take some support, though, because otherwise, you don't know, you don't know if you're just making up something else. Right. And again, this is why a huge part of our brain is relational. Because when we have people willing to say, I got you, right, we can do some amazing things. And when you have a group of people behind you saying, I will break you. That's usually true. Yeah. All right. At the end of this episode, I want to remind you that your story matters. Remember, there's something meaningful in every chapter. Don't wait to share your story until it's finished. Until next time, Jackie.