Student Voices Ep 3

The Student Voices Podcast aims to highlight student perspectives on educational inequities. The W. Floyd Center for Educational Equity and Opportunity started the series in 2020. Katie, a high school senior, shares her thoughts on her educational journey and the impact of teachers and mentors. She also discusses challenges with DEI initiatives and the need for action and negotiation. The language we use shapes conversations around DEI and reflects our efforts to challenge biases. Welcome, Lifelong Learners, to the third episode of the Student Voices Podcast. We are so excited for you to join us in our purpose of highlighting student perspectives to co-create an equitable educational system. This podcast provides a platform for students across the state to share their perspectives on educational inequities in classrooms, schools, and districts, and their dreams of an equitable education system. If you are new to the Student Voices or the W. Floyd Center for Educational Equity and Opportunity, we want to share a little history with you. The W. Floyd Center is dedicated to eradicating educational inequities and started the Student Voices series in 2020 to demonstrate the capacity of students to discuss and provide perspective on the social injustices facing our country and schools. To learn more about the Student Voices program or the Floyd Center, please check out our website, FloydCenter.org. I'm your host, Roti Pupoi, and today we are joined by Katie, who will share a little bit of her thoughts and perspectives. We're so glad to have you join us and just ask you some questions so we can learn a little bit more about yourself. So what grade are you in? I am a student, about to be a high school senior. I'm about to be a student in college at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. But my title as a student does not define me as I am an athlete, an advocate for educational equity, echoing the message that the Floyd Center rallies around. And lastly, a sister to a very amazing duo of siblings. Yes, congratulations. You're so close to the finish line. I remember when I was in my senior spring and I suffered from what they like to call senioritis. It's very unfortunate, but I hope you're having a good time, having fun, making memories. I'm wondering, as you reflect on your own educational experience in the K-12 system coming to an end, is there a particular teacher, mentor, educator, or just historical figure who you feel has inspired you or influenced your educational journey? Yeah, so there are several that come to mind. I mean, I think about John Lewis and the March series. I think about Barack Obama. But the one that I think that has influenced me the most when it comes to my passions, particularly for criminal justice, Bryan Stevenson is probably the black figure that, although not technically historical per se, as he's still very well alive and functioning, has influenced me to become a lawyer in the fields of civil rights and such to help exonerate wrongfully convicted inmates or those that, especially those of color, who the criminal justice system has treated unfairly. I think the teacher that has had the most impact on my educational experience has been Miss Jessica Williams, who I'd love to shout out for being brave enough in a climate, a highly contentious political climate, especially as it relates to equity and the entire existence of DEI in the UNC system. Well, we're not there yet, but in a public high school, in a liberal public high school, a public high school in a progressive town and district with a less liberal, more right-leaning general assembly, it's difficult to teach courses like intro to socially just education, which Miss Williams teaches. But it's even more courageous and inspirational to see a teacher that is passionate about what they do, being education and being education delivered in an equitable format where learning is relationship-based, not outcome-based. So she has had a significant impact on, honestly, my interest in education as a career. Two follow ups to that. We're going to get into more of the DEI stuff right after this. But first, I'm just wondering, to the instructor that you mentioned who taught that course, is there any message that you would like to convey that I'm hearing now that acknowledges the role they play in your life and the power of you as a student? I want to tell Miss Williams that you are changing the world, whether it's a student every couple of years who engages in education. And that's all you see as a result. The relationships that you have curated with your students have been so impactful to not just their learning, but who they are as people having the experience that you give us in writing an incredibly long yet rewarding paper and using our public speaking skills to demonstrate our research. And that is not something every teacher can facilitate as well as you. So I commend you for being courageous enough to teach this course, especially in a climate where it's not very encouraged. And I commend you for giving students skills like incredible skills that we don't typically get in high school. And I just want to say you're changing the world one student at a time, as you hope to know that. Absolutely. Well, when this podcast drops, I hope you consider sending this to your educators so they can hear what an incredible impact it's had on you. Now, we've seen a lot of attacks on DEI recently. It's coming at multiple levels. It's occurring at county levels, it's occurring at state levels. My home state of Alabama, they recently banned, they defunded DEI at public institutions, which is insane to me. And you're also seeing attacks like this at federal levels. Recently in Congress, a doctor, actually a North Carolina congressional representative, introduced a bill that aims to ban DEI medical curricula for doctors who are literally operating on minorities. So, again, we're seeing a lot of attacks on DEI at the moment. And I'm wondering, have you witnessed or experienced any challenges with DEI initiatives firsthand? Yes, I think we've all felt the lag in momentum and the lack of support from our white peers since the Black Lives Matter movement, since the explosion of, you know, let's fight racial disparities and inequalities. Let's stand up to them. Let's put the light on them. So, other than the direct attacks that have been like the UNC system, taking all DEI initiatives away, I think there has been a lot of indirect loss of momentum that has hurt even more. Because, I mean, I always like to think about how the oppressed versus the oppressors, and without the support of the oppressors, the oppressed can never really secure their rights. So, I think about this in like, I don't know, like women's suffrage is just what comes to mind and how like, you know, it's very, if a group wants something and they have enough support from the other side that's trying to take it away from them, they can secure it. Right? Like, it is totally possible. We've seen it demonstrated in our country a bunch of times, but it's not going to simply be given. That's so frustrating to hear about. So, in response to challenges like that, do you have any ideas on how students and the educational institutions themselves, the school districts, should respond to these issues like white plight and the fact of segregation and continued losses in the shape of DEI programs? I strongly dislike, you know, really strongly worded statements and press releases from universities. I think that's such a weak move from universities, especially just thinking about the statements Columbia and UNC Chapel Hill has issued about the ongoing protests from students about the conflict in Israel and Gaza. And just like, it seems like they're helpless to their students' voices. It seems like they're like, okay, and not to their protests because their protests are kind of shut down by force, but they don't know what to do other than issue statements. So, I think students, on the flip side of that, have done a great job voicing their discomfort and anger and frustration with the attacks on their DEI initiatives, especially when it came to shutting down Campus Y, for example. And even as a student who's interested in joining Campus Y next year, and who attended the Catalyst Conference, which made me even more invigorated to pursue social justice efforts, it's terrifying. And so, we're not only frustrated, we're scared. So, I think a great response to that is voicing our emotions through action, right? That's one of the best things we can do. But I think, to the university's point, there is something to say for negotiation. And especially, I think about the letter from Birmingham Jail from Dr. King, how he said the four steps to actual action when it comes to protests, you have to start with negotiation. You have to start with those raw conversations and navigating, okay, what are we demanding from you? And what do you really lose as a result? And why are we demanding this and not asking for it politely? Anyways, so I think students have done a really good job of putting their emotions into action, and I think universities need to do a better job of doing the same and mirroring students and not just issuing strongly worded statements and claiming that they've exhausted all efforts because clearly they have not. Absolutely. I think that kind of ties back to the purpose behind student voices. You have to actually elevate student voices to see the change and power structures and decision-making. And fortunately, I think that's a trend that's happening more broadly being recognized, but you have to include the voices and perspectives of the communities you're trying to impact with your change. So, in your view, how does the language that we use shape conversations around DEI? It exposes our biases and exposes our efforts to challenge our biases. Like I was talking about before, with the use of minority, just opting for the intentional conscious effort to opt for BIPOC, students of color, etc. Just shows a small effort for recognizing diversity, right? Because you're not saying, oh, the minorities in this school. No, you're saying like you have to one thing that I've been trying to unlearn is not saying who I'm talking about. So, if I'm literally talking about a particular racial or ethnic group, I'm going to name that. But if I'm talking about the broader, like, for example, like Asian American students or black students, right? Not just like students of color, but I don't know. I just think like, and even that, like, just who you talk about and how you talk about them is incredibly and how you feel about them is very obvious with the language choices you make. So, making conscious ones to unlearn some of the disempowering language we use. I think it's very powerful. That's deep. That's super deep. That's a vital connection. That's something that I try to be more intentional about. The language that we use, you know, we use that to talk about power. And a lot of times we have people in positions of power using language to talk about people in marginalized communities. Or words that tend to place the blame on those marginalized individuals and their identity rather than describing the situation that they're in. As you mentioned, a super prominent example that I've seen in medicine and public health is shifting from homeless to a person without housing, you know? Okay, so you provided us with some great examples of just the links between language and DEI, but reflecting on your own educational journey, are there any ways that you've seen literacy and language impact discussions around equity and inclusion within your specific school or community? Our equity officer for our school district, Marta Alcala, is very passionate about asset-based language. And she has offered students at my school, Asheville High School, trainings in asset-based language, you know, which kind of reject the deficit mindset that we often take on. Using language like English language learners instead of multilingual learners, which, you know, or like English as a second language. Saying like, oh, like, you're bad at English, it's your second language. And you're just like, the focus is all on English versus like multilingual learners is very much like, oh, no, like, your brain is powerful, like you are multilingual. The focus is not on English. It's on multiple languages that you're learning. So I don't know, just little things like that. I think there's been quite a bit of talk around language and literacy, especially when it comes to asset-based language in my school district, because of our very, very passionate equity officer. I don't think that many people do a great job applying the knowledge they may learn from our equity officer, however. But the lessons are there. And, yeah, as a student who is also very passionate about asset-based language, I definitely encourage the use of it quite a bit in my district, especially around conversations with DEI. As you may know, last summer, the Supreme Court outlawed the practice of race-conscious admissions. With the recent changes surrounding affirmative action in college admissions, how do you feel this will impact students of color and the broader landscape of higher education? Yes, the striking down of affirmative action was actually quite stressful to me as a Hispanic student who identifies under the umbrella of students of color. It was so distressing because I was like, wow, so I can't just check a box now to kind of systematically inform admissions officers of some of the things I faced being a non-white ethnic group or part of a non-white ethnic group in the United States. It's scary because then I felt the pressure to spend a lot of time in my essays, like personal statement and supplementals for colleges, talking about my cultural and ethnic identity. It was an unnecessary amount of pressure to put on me to communicate some things I faced as a result of my identity. And that was horrible because I'm obviously more than my identity and a lot more complex, but I felt like I had to really nail in that point with the striking down of affirmative action. I will say the response from many universities and many of the ones that I applied to, they basically a bunch of the colleges that I applied to added an additional question that was kind of rejecting the idea that they didn't care about diversity, which was the point of striking down affirmative action. So that students felt like they had a place specifically to say, hey, this is my experience with identity, wink, wink, as it relates to my experience as a scholar. So that was very empowering to see universities respond in such a positive way that kind of, I don't know, is trying to mitigate or was trying to mitigate the effects of affirmative action because universities, they want diversity at their schools, at least as far as I'm concerned. Like there are serious repercussions from not having diversity and granting students opportunities to demonstrate their worth as a scholar. Yeah. I mean, you share so much wisdom in that. I'm going to quote something I wrote in a piece on the standing of affirmative action last year, but affirmative action may not be flawless as evidenced by admissions officers or advisees, but it's crucial that schools have the opportunity to consider race when creating a diverse student body. It's impossible, impossible to be colorblind in admissions, and our nation itself is not colorblind in academic discipline, social mobility, imprisonment rates, academic achievement, hospitals, and history or in its present, end quote. But that just goes to show, like, as you mentioned, affirmative action was never meant to be a permanent solution, but it's a foundation, it's a band-aid solution, because we have so many systemic inequities and disproportionate harms that start from even before children are born. And so when you get to the point that they're, you know, 17 to 19 and applying to college, you can't just say this is a complete meritocracy if you've had completely equal opportunities from birth when every statistic supports the opposite notion. And then that's also really, I think it's really sad, because on the other hand, you know, you have basically what exists functionally as affirmative action for white or wealthy people with things like legacy admissions and special admissions for students of people who donate a lot of money. I personally have met children of adults who donated a lot of money to get into some good schools, you know, and I've met people who are second, third, fourth, even seventh generation students at Ivy Leagues, and those students are white, and they're white because people of color are not even allowed to go to these universities. And so not many generations ago, and we still have all these disparities. So again, this is very disappointing to see how, in some cases, we pretend that college is merit, that it's a meritocracy, and it's like, hey, you know, everybody has the same chance to get their good GPA and get their good SAT and do extracurriculars. And so many of these things have environmental influence over them, on your race influences, on your ethnicity influences, on your income influences, on all these factors put together independently, you know. So those are just some thoughts, but it's definitely sad to hear, and I'm sorry that that's something that you've had to navigate, going through that struggle and tension of how do I convey my identity, because for some reason I can't just check a box and let them know all these different systemic things that don't just impact me as an individual, but impact me as part of a population that has faced historic and systemic discrimination in the United States. And as you mentioned, universities, some of them have already taken steps by changing the Supplemental Institute to ask students directly about their identity in this space so that they don't have to change their qualifications to be about that, but can still share it. But I also want to add that I hope we see a lot of these universities, especially ones like those big names like Harvard itself, take more steps to attach some of the educational inequities earlier on in development, because a lot of times you see these universities historically as gatekeepers of wealth and elitism and status, and they've been complicit in some of the disparities we've seen here. And so it's important that these institutions with billions of dollars in endowments are taking steps beyond just simple application process changes to really make impact in terms of making sure that higher education is accessible for everybody, regardless of their background. And on that note, I'm going to ask you our closing question. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. delivered his iconic I Have a Dream speech on August 28, 1963, handing a vision of equality and justice to these inspired generations. The 100th anniversary of that moment, as I said, will be in 2063, so 39 years away. That's longer than either of us have lived, but that date invites us to dream about the future, particularly in the realm of education, which is so close to Dr. King's heart. With that milestone in mind, I'd love to hear your vision for the future of our classrooms. If we were to achieve educational equity that visionaries like King aspired to, what does your dream classroom look like in 2063, perhaps for our children or grandchildren? What will be different and what would stay the same? I think the future that I hope for revolves around student teacher relationships, guaranteeing the success of students and students of all races and ethnicities being able to not compete, not look down on one another, just have similar socialization. And groups and not like self-segregating, essentially, which is a lot of what goes on in public high school and private high school, I assume. So, yeah, so having like those teacher student relationships, having decreased disparate or just like no disparate discipline, no disparate discipline between white students and students of color. And having so like in classroom time is the same, so the learning is essentially the same and then having like what I need to actively do. Right? Because there's like the teacher level, there's like the administration and the school resource officer level, like the law enforcement level. And then there's like the student level of students also caring about each other and having connections with each other, regardless of race and ethnicity, socioeconomic status, all that. Because they are also in tune with, in line with, and an advocate for like equity and not just like in the performative sense. And that brings us to the end of our third episode of the Student Voices podcast. I'm your host, Ratini Kulkarni, and thank you so much to our listeners for tuning in. I'd like to thank our guests for her insightful contributions and for sharing their personal experiences with all of us today. We'd also like to thank the Sandra Conway Foundation and the Burroughs Welcome Fund for supporting the work of the Zedley Blood Center for Educational Equity and Opportunity. We're also excited to share that we are looking for a team sponsor for this podcast and want students to help us create it. If you are a K-12 student and would like to learn how you can share your talents by creating a team sponsor for this podcast, please visit our website, bloodcenter.org, student-voices/. To our listeners, we hope today's conversation sparks your curiosity and inspires you to think about the changes you'd like to see in your educational environment. Remember, your voice matters. It's through conversations like these that we can begin to shape a more inclusive and representative future. Please join us for the next episode, where we'll continue to explore themes that push educational equity forward and bring light to the voices that need to be heard.