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Prof. Shlomo Maytal and R. Elisha Wolfin discuss Parashat Korach, and the meaning of "for the sake of heaven" and "not for the sake of heaven".
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Prof. Shlomo Maytal and R. Elisha Wolfin discuss Parashat Korach, and the meaning of "for the sake of heaven" and "not for the sake of heaven".
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Prof. Shlomo Maytal and R. Elisha Wolfin discuss Parashat Korach, and the meaning of "for the sake of heaven" and "not for the sake of heaven".
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This is a conversation about the weekly Torah portion, Parashat Korach, which tells the story of the rebellion led by Korach against Moses and Aaron. The speakers discuss various aspects of the story, including Korach's motivations, the punishment he and his followers received, and the idea of God's justice. They also explore the concept of compassion and the role of motivation in Jewish practice. They touch on the relationship between Judaism and Greek philosophy, as well as the importance of argument and debate in Jewish culture. The conversation ultimately highlights the complexity and depth of Jewish thought and interpretation. Shalom everyone. Shalom Shlomo. Shalom Elisha. And we have a dramatic, dramatic parasha this week. Parashat Korach. The first ever, the first rebellion, the first Hebrew-Jewish rebellion ever. And I also want to wish Shlomo mazal tov. Shlomo has received the mazal tov almost every week. He either has a new grandchild or a new great-grandchild, or he's marrying off a grandchild. And we all get to enjoy Shlomo's smachot, because it's always followed by a kiddush at some point. So Shlomo mazal tov, his first-born grandson just got married last night on Tuesday. Today is Wednesday, and we're preparing for Shabbat. So Shlomo. Shabbat Shalom everyone. Parashat Korach. Whopper of a parasha, Elisha, and why do I have a lot of questions? Based on your wonderful droshah. The story, of course, is the rebellion, as you said, and Korach incites a rebellion against Moshe. But boy, it seems to me pretty reasonable, Elisha. He says to Moshe Naharon, guys, you take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, everyone's holy, and the Lord is among them. Why do you lift yourselves up above the assembly of the Lord? That's a reasonable question. And he pays a terrific price for it. He gets swallowed up in the earth. Was he and his followers for doing that? An act of God. Elisha, what's the story here? What the heck? Yeah, you always have these amazing questions. Well, it's important to give a bit of a, not just a background, but a context. It's right after the parasha of the scouts, the spies. So the people just learned that they're not going to make it to the Promised Land. They're all going to die in the desert. Their children will make it. And even that's questionable. Who knows? If we didn't make it, maybe our children won't make it either. So they turn. Korach, who's a very wealthy man, and must have been quite charismatic, comes up to Moshe and Aaron. And indeed, as you said, at least the first part of his message is not only legitimate, but it's also very modern. I don't remember putting my vote into the ballot box and voting for you. I don't remember that. You told us... No, he's not saying that. I'm putting these words into his mouth. You told us how God chose you in the burning bush. Well, I wasn't there. We weren't there. We believed you. So you got us out of Egypt to die in the desert. So first of all, you failed. You guys failed. You promised us to bring us to the Promised Land. And here we are, in the desert, going to die. So you failed. And a leadership that fails needs to be replaced. It's pretty straightforward. Right. But the one place where all of a sudden they spill the beans. I don't know if that's the correct term. Spill the beans. Okay. So he says, you, Moshe and Aaron, you've taken us out of the land flowing with milk and honey to die in the desert. And that tells us that God has it all wrong. That confusing Egypt with the land of milk and honey and basically if we look at it kind of metaphorically whenever we confuse plenty for the Promised Land when we confuse materialism like plenty of materialism for the Promised Land we will eventually be swallowed up by the earth. The earth being a metaphor for materialism. Materialism will swallow us up. So I think it's a very fitting it's not a punishment. It's a consequence. Okay. But I still have a number of hard questions. Of course. Related to the fact that Korath was wealthy. Related to his motivation. And related to the terrible punishment that he and his followers received from God. We have a my wife's sister Suri she is a Jewish renewal rabbi in America. She came to the wedding. And I had long discussions with her in the car about Korath. And she makes the point that in many places in the Bible God is a very very tough taskmaster. Very stern. Sometimes with chesed severe judgment. In fact her son Ziv does not want to teach the Bible to his kid because of many hard things in it. Doesn't want him to know God who is able to bury Korath in the ground and have him swallowed up. Elisha, is it legitimate to criticize God as being too harsh? In general is it legitimate to treat God almost anthropomorphically? As a human being and say you're too tough. You're not merciful. You're not compassionate enough. Is that a legitimate thing to say for a Jew? Well So I have to be careful with my words because it's all recorded. If you ask me like off the record just my own humble opinion and I'll give my own opinion it would not necessarily be the answer I would give publicly. So in my own humble opinion I Okay let's see how do we phrase this. This is a tough one. I believe that as King David said God is just in all of his ways. We read that twice a day, in the morning, in the afternoon. We read that twice a day. God is just in all of God's ways. And I really do believe that. When I don't see justice then instead of questioning God's justice I kind of question our own doings and actions. It's very not politically correct to say what I just said now because it puts the blame on us. And I don't mean to put the blame on us. I don't believe in blame at all. I really do see all of this as stories of consequences. That the more, the closer we get to God the more severe the consequences. It's like a person who is working at a nuclear power plant. The closer you get to the holy of holies of the nuclear plant the more you really need to prepare yourself and be clothed correctly and then follow all the rules and regulations because they're one tiny mistake and you are doomed. You're gone. And what we say about a power plant, a nuclear power plant, it's not loving, it's very judgmental. Most of you won't say that because it's a consequence. So my feeling is it's the same thing here. We're asking to be the people of God. We're asking to be the chosen people. And I believe we are, even though that's a very difficult term. One day we'll discuss that too. I think we actually even have touched on it. But if you think of Korach, Korach if you want to be the leader of the children of Israel, if you want to be a leader, a position of leadership that that bears consequences. And we see that in the Israeli political strife right now. People who want leadership positions, want the glory, the kavod and the power and the money, kavod, korach and kesef, but are not willing to be to rise to the occasion, the consequences would be very bitter. So that's why I would say to your son, well, your sister-in-law's son, it's just how we choose to tell the story. If we see it as a punishment, then it's a very wrathful God and it's a very difficult God to justify. If we see it as a consequence, then we know. We know that sometimes consequences are really, really horrific. Yes. Elisha, I have a question on a story. Let me start with a story about compassion. We're talking about compassion. Is God compassionate? There's a funny quote by Woody Allen, a Jewish comedian whom I really love. He said, if there is a God, he's quite an underachiever. I think we Jews have the right to say that even in humor. Compassion, Elisha. A small story about compassion. What did he mean by that? Well, look at the suffering the Jewish people have gone through. God is all-powerful right now everywhere and dwells within us. What the heck has happened to us over history for 3,000 years? Well, God, and then he's an overachiever. Exactly. One of the two. Not that Woody Allen was very religious. A small story about compassion. I listened to a podcast called Hidden Brain. It's about psychology by a Harvard psychologist. He talked about a researcher who took a bunch of equipment to Asia to a monastery with Buddhist monks and he wanted to study their brains. And they wired up a monk with an electroencephalograph to study the brain waves and then they explained to the monks we want to study your compassion. Your compassion for other people. Chesed. And the monks burst out laughing. There was hysterical laughter in the room and the scientists didn't understand what was going on. What's so funny about studying compassion? And I'm pretty sure you can guess they said, you scientists, you're looking for compassion in the brain? It's in the heart. It's not in the brain. And we westerners, we know, of course, that emotion is in the brain. We even know where it is in the brain. But it really isn't. It isn't. It's not. It isn't. You're right. And that's a huge misconception. I think it's easy, relatively easy to explain. We think of everything stemming, pun somewhat intended, stemming from the brain while in fact a whole new way of seeing it is that the brain is more of a receiver than the origin of the thought or the feeling. So in our body, every thought and feeling they pass through our brain. Our brain is amazing. But they don't come from the brain. The brain is responsible for giving it, for helping us to give it words, etc. And the brain is really important. But none of that, nothing comes from the brain. It all comes from, we don't know where it comes from. Even when we say the heart, we don't mean the pump that pumps blood into the body. We mean something in the chest area. Something where in the far east they would call it the heart chakra, let's say. And we would often say, you know, if I really look deep into my heart, it doesn't really come from the heart either. It's a big mystery where things come from. It is indeed. I want to move on a bit to another aspect of Korah, which is really interesting and crucial, and that is motivation. So we judge actions not just by what we do, by the action itself, we judge them by why we do them, by our motivation. And in Judaism we have the distinction between for the sake of heaven and not for the sake of heaven. And the rabbis criticized Korah because he was doing it for wealth, for power, for prestige, for kavod. As you quote a famous politician for money, power, and honor. But you have a really nice take on motivation, and it's very creative. You say, I would like to suggest that ultimately in essence, there is no real difference between for the sake of heaven and not for the sake of heaven. Because absolutely everything is for the sake of heaven, if we can only understand it correctly. And I really like that, because who knows what people's motivation is? How do we know? Even for ourself. Like I helped one of our wonderful members of our keilah, Tzvi, to learn the haftorah and to say it. He's a notably man, and I dearly love him. So was I doing it for the sake of heaven? Or was I doing it so that people would think well of me? And Tzvi would think well of me. I don't know. I really don't know. I don't think you can even answer questions about true, true motivation. So, there's something beautiful about Judaism, which is that it is existential. Do the mitzvot, and then see what happens. Do things. Never mind the motivation, the philosophy. Do it. And then, like trying on clothes. See how it feels. See how it feels. Never mind the motivation. That's such a beautiful way of looking at it. It's a beautiful, beautiful take. You're absolutely right. In Judaism, you're not judged for your motivation. You're judged for your actions at the end of the day. Do this or do that. And then just see how it feels. So even if it feels, let's say it feels good. So we could go back to your point saying, well it feels good because my ego just got a nice pat on its back. And we could say, okay, so it got a nice pat on its back. That's great. That's how we know that you indeed did something good. Otherwise you wouldn't know. So your ego becomes an indicator that you've done good in the world. So I love, I love that explanation you just gave. I looked up some Greek philosophy. I know that you like Greek philosophy and it's had a powerful influence on Judaism. But I think there's one place where we really part company, Jews and Socrates. Well Socrates talks about virtue, which is doing good. And he talks about virtue as two parts, knowing the right thing to do. And the second part is the Bitzuah, the implementation. He calls it controlling the appetites. We have appetites. We want to eat and drink and be merry and enjoy. And it differs, Judaism differs here because I think we are okay with enjoyment, with Onik, Onik Shabbat, the pleasures of Shabbat. That's okay. That's a part of life. So that's a point where we're different with Socrates. And if we do things, if Korach was wealthy and enjoyed it as well, good for him. Provided he was a good person. Right, right, right. Yeah, I think that you're right. That's certainly a distinction between Judaism and a number of other religions where ascetism is not part of our agenda and having fun eating good food, sex, and a good bottle of wine is a blessing. And if we connect the two dots together, I think we can almost say that if you are truly enjoying you said the word Onik, Onik is a great word. If you're truly in Onik, you truly are enjoying whatever it is you're enjoying, it's a marker. It tells you that you must be doing something right. I can't imagine someone doing something evil and really truly enjoying it. And on the level of Onik, not on the level of momentary gratification. So, it's our feelings, I think the way I understand feelings, our feelings are our barometer to how good we're doing. And if we're feeling miserable, it's a great sign that our thinking is all skewed, that we're doing something wrong, that something is not quite right. If we're feeling wonderful, whether it comes from the ego, whether it comes from the body, it doesn't really matter. If we're feeling wonderful, but not momentary gratification, just feeling really good, it's a sign we're on the right track and we're doing good in the world. There's even a therapy, Alicia, that is based on that, cognitive behavioral therapy. You help people by having them do things, including things that they're fearful of, or that cause them stress or tension. Take them up to a tall building when they're afraid of heights. Gradually, in doing things, they can master their feelings and their fears. I have a question about Korach, and you've answered this already in shul, but I don't remember the answer. So I'm going to ask it again. We have the Book of Psalms, and we have ten psalms, ten, which is a high percentage of the total number, called Mizmo Livne Korach. That is a psalm to the sons of Korach? Wait a second. The Bible says the Korach and the whole gang were swallowed up. What's going on? And why ten? Ten psalms? For the descendants of Korach who was vilified? Isn't that amazing? Psalms for Mizmo Livne, a psalm for David, David Mizmo, David's psalms, and all of a sudden, psalms for the children of Korach. One of them is adopted for saying in the home of mourners. So we say that to get an extra cuttage. Really? What's going on? Right, right, right. Furthermore, if Korach is challenging Moshe, he's really challenging Aaron, but this is challenging both Moshe and Aaron, the next great prophet after Moshe is Shmuel. Samuel. And Shmuel is a descendant of Korach. So that's really amazing how eventually, Korach's lineage, they get their way. Which is beautiful. I love it. So the sages also ask the same question, like, how could that have happened? Because as you said, the entire family and all the supporters were all swallowed by the earth. So the sages explain it, and it's deep and beautiful, that as the earth opened its mouth to swallow the people and they all fell in and it started closing its jaw, the sons of Korach suddenly did Shuba. They did Shuba, and they were, as they did Shuba, what does that mean? They repented, meaning they were saying to themselves, wow, we really got it all wrong. We got it all wrong. We're so sorry, we got it all wrong. And instantly, they were like, miraculously, and I want to say, not miraculously, it's a consequence, they were thrown out of the pit, and boom, the earth closed and they were out. And it's a huge lesson in repentance. Repentance is not this long journey of repentance. It could be a long journey of repentance. It could also happen in an instant. An instant of understanding, oh wow, I really got it all wrong. Like this instant understanding, and boom, you're out of the pit. And that's why we often do bury people who, heaven forbid, commit suicide, even though the law says you're not supposed to because we believe maybe in that last instant they actually did repent and were sorry, and so we give them the benefit of the doubt. So, Elisha, this brings us to another issue. The sages have done a reinterpretation of the narrative. They have somewhat largely changed the narrative. And this brings me to an observation of Jonathan Sachs related to this parasha. He says that Judaism is a culture of argument. It's the only religious literature known whose key texts Bible, Midrash, Mishnah, Talmud, Codes of Jewish Law, Interpretation, Chazal, it's the only religious literature that are anthologies not of principles but of arguments. Our body of Jewish knowledge is an anthology of arguments. I think this is highly relevant when we read the story of Korach. We are allowed to argue with it. We can argue because the Jewish people have done this for 3,000 years. And we're still doing it. But, you mentioned earlier, there is indeed this distinction. Is the argument for the sake what's the purpose of the argument? And all purposes are okay. They're all fine. But what the Mishnah says about the argumentation is that when it's for the sake of heaven, it endures. Meaning it promotes life. It deepens life. It's good for life. When it's not for the sake of heaven, it doesn't endure. It could still be interesting. We could still learn a lot from it. We can learn from any argument. We can learn something new. I think when you're absolutely right. We're a very argumentative culture and people. And, boy, if you live in Israel, you regret often being part of this argumentative people. We're stick-naked people. And for the sake of heaven, we'll be are we trying to understand God? We're trying to understand what does God want from us? We're trying to understand how to live correctly, etc. So if the argument is for that purpose, for increasing goodness in the world, then what a great people to be a part of. But when the argument, as we can see very often, when the argument is for the sake of ... for the sake of political clout, etc., then it still carries weight. But it is not pleasant. It's not... It doesn't bring a lot of blessing. Yesterday, no, two days ago, at the Bar Mitzvah on Monday, this kid, an amazing kid, with a beautiful babasha, and he said, it was about Shavuot, obviously, and he said, so we're in the midst of this huge argument here in the State of Israel, and we should, every one of us, should ask him or herself, is my argument for the sake of heaven or for the sake of ego? And we did say earlier, you know, there's no big difference if it's for the sake of heaven or not. But the difference would be, will it bring blessing, or will it tear us apart? Exactly. And I have a theory about how to tell the difference. Whether it brings blessing or not, and this comes from the world of nature. So last podcast, Elisha, we talked about the human brain. I mentioned the human brain has a right and a left hemisphere, and all mammals have that. The brains of all mammals, animals, and people, they're all in two halves, and there's a reason for that in evolution. We simply think better. Animals, monkeys, dogs, cats, and people, when we have two halves, and they connect, and we have backup. We have a lot of backup in our brains. And there are a lot of stories about that. My point is this. Evolution has generated this amazing brain. We have evolution of ideas as well. Why is argument so powerful in Judaism? Why have we brought so much light to the world? In this argument, where we throw ideas up into the air, some of them float, some of them stick, and some of them disappear. Because they're not valid, they're not helpful, they're not true, they don't resonate. So that's the point of argument in the Shem Shalom. You argue and you throw ideas up into the air, just like music. Why do we listen to Bach and Mozart and not others? Because their music endures, because people like it, because it meets a need. And the same is true of arguments in Judaism. We argue, we fiercely debate, we throw these ideas up, and some of them stick, because they resonate, they're true, they're related to our core values, and they're a blessing. But time, we need time for that. So we have towards the end of our podcast, so I think what we can take home that we're coming up here with is there are two markers if an argument or an action or anything is sick of heaven. One is does it feel good, but not just good for instant gratification, does it really feel good in the long run, when we think about something, does it bring a good feeling in our body? And the second is, does it resonate? Does it resonate? And if it resonates, then it's not just about my own personal ego, because it resonates with you too, it resonates with someone else, it must somehow resonate with the common good, with the goodness of creation. So that's an important takeaway from this parasha, from this podcast. I think so. Well said, well said, Elisha. So, we want to wish everyone again, Shabbat Shalom, and Shalom, thank you again. And may you enjoy many more weddings of grandchildren, great-grandchildren. And Elisha, happy birthday to Vea Hafta, our 20th birthday, 20th anniversary tomorrow, big celebration. Yeah, big celebration. Well, you'll receive this after the big celebration, but tomorrow night, Thursday evening, we're celebrating 20 years of Vea Hafta. So, happy birthday to us, and thank you all for listening, and we look forward to hearing from you, if you have any comments. Shabbat Shalom, everyone. Shabbat Shalom.
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