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Prof. Shlomo Maital and R. Elisha Wolfin discuss Parashat Va'era, and ask the question, is the Torah true? Did the Exodus really happen?
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Prof. Shlomo Maital and R. Elisha Wolfin discuss Parashat Va'era, and ask the question, is the Torah true? Did the Exodus really happen?
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Prof. Shlomo Maital and R. Elisha Wolfin discuss Parashat Va'era, and ask the question, is the Torah true? Did the Exodus really happen?
Listen to Podcast #49: Parashat Va'era by Elisha Wolfin MP3 song. Podcast #49: Parashat Va'era song from Elisha Wolfin is available on Audio.com. The duration of song is 34:37. This high-quality MP3 track has 2304 kbps bitrate and was uploaded on 10 Jan 2024. Stream and download Podcast #49: Parashat Va'era by Elisha Wolfin for free on Audio.com – your ultimate destination for MP3 music.
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The speaker and Elisha discuss the importance of conflict and debate in making their podcast interesting. They then discuss the topic of Parshat Va'era, which is about the plagues and the Israelites' struggle for freedom. They also talk about the idea of not despairing and how the Torah can be seen as a model for the universe. They debate whether the events in the Torah have a deeper meaning or are just part of the story. They also discuss the importance of myths and how they carry deep truths. The speaker shares a story about a conversation with a Bar Mitzvah family and explains that believing in the Torah does not necessarily mean believing in its historical accuracy. They talk about the resonance and truthfulness of the Torah and how it can enrich and guide their lives. They briefly mention Rabbi Sachs and his approach to interpreting the Torah. They imagine what Israel would be like with a chief rabbi who had a broad knowledge and wisdom. Shalom Shlomo. Shalom Elisha. Shalom to everyone. It's Tuesday. I love this consistency that we meet every Tuesday to discuss this week's parasha and we have an amazing, amazing parasha. And Shlomo, you'll introduce it, right? What? The next parasha, this week's parasha. Yes, before I do so. Elisha, we have a problem. Houston, we have a problem. Elisha, there are two million podcasts by one count. We are one of the two million. We would like people to listen. People listen sometimes when there is a discussion or a debate or a little bit of conflict. We know that in terms of literature. If you write a novel, you have to have strong characters and you have to have a plot. But the third piece is the conflict. They have to be in conflict somehow. If it's all sweetness and light, it's pretty boring. And Elisha, we have a problem because I agree with you. I agree with you. So we're going to debate a little bit today. We'll see if we can do that. But it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy. So here's the first question, Elisha. And my first little bit of debate. First of all, the topic is Parshat Va'era. Va'era is 1,700 words in Hebrew about the seven of the plagues. And the Bnei Yisrael, they first called that in Shemot. We're becoming a people from a family. We've become a people in slavery. And we're in big trouble because Pharaoh is not letting us go and we're in slavery and he's killing our babies. So the title of Yad Vashay is For Those Who Don't Despair. And it's so relevant today because, Elisha, there are so many people who are despairing. We've been in war for three months. And every morning we turn the radio on and we hear about fallen soldiers. So we will discuss this issue of for those who don't despair and how not to despair. But let's begin with this. Parshat says the guiding premise of those who love the Torah is there is no coincidence in the Torah. The deeper we delve into the inner chambers of the Torah, the more we see the point made by the sages that the Torah is the model for the entire universe. I agree with that. But I'm also aware about a finding in psychology. It's a mistake that people very often make. It's very common. It's called a fundamental attribution error. If A and B occur together, we human beings are always looking for cause and effect. We try to understand the universe. We need to understand cause and effect. And so if A and B occur together, we usually say it must be that A caused B. So, Elisha, in reading the Torah, how do you know that this is accurate? That these things that occur together in the Torah, maybe it's just there. It's part of the story rather than attaching meaning. How do we know if what we're saying is true? Are we allowed to go that deep on a Tuesday morning? So, okay. That's an amazing, amazing question. It basically goes to, it addresses the question of how do we understand Torah to begin with? I am matriculated in philosophy. And indeed, the first, I think the first lesson we learned with Mr. Parsons, that was his name. It was in Israel. He was an American Ole. He was an amazing, amazing teacher. I'll forever remember him. And he taught us about, you know, if B always follows A, does that mean that A caused B? And we obviously, I was 16 years old at the time, said, of course. And he proved to us that it's not of course, not necessarily. And that was a great insight and a source of actually of liberation. Because ever since then, I feel very comfortable kind of breaking things down a little bit. If something happens, it doesn't mean that we know what the causes are. If something happens every time after something else happens, it doesn't mean that that's the cause of it, etc. It opens up for all kinds of other possibilities and options. But that's evading the question. The Torah. The Torah, we always tell, I have this privilege of sitting with Bar Mitzvah families. And Bar Mitzvah families are, on the most part, they're all secular. Sometimes one of the parents comes from an observant background, religious background, and they left it behind. And usually I'm the one of authority about the Torah. I'm the rabbi. And they are the secular Jewish Israelis who know nothing about the Torah. And they're really turned on. Very often they're like, oh wow, we didn't realize that the Torah could be so meaningful, etc. So in a conversation yesterday with the Bar Mitzvah family, this kind of question came up. When we talked about the exodus, because this is the time of year we talk about the exodus. And they asked, obviously the kid asked, yeah, but we don't know if it really happened. And I said, right, no, we don't know if it really happened. The parents both looked up and said, so, but nevertheless, you believe in that, don't you? I said, I believe in what? He said, well, you believe in the Torah. I said, I absolutely believe in the Torah. So you must believe that it happened. And I tell them, not necessarily, because there's a huge difference between a historical occurrence and a deep, deep, deep spiritual mythological occurrence. Now for most people, you say mythological, you're already a heretic, because a myth is a lie. And we always argue, I think we've even talked about it here, we always argue that a myth is the truth. History, you know, changes. When you have a new perspective comes up, a new historian appears on the stage of the world and debunks everything that we knew about World War I. A myth, on the other hand, carries within it a very, very, very deep truth. So whenever we're asked, did Adam and Eve really exist? Yes, they did. Historically, I don't know. But as a truthful statement, absolutely. They exist within me to this very, very day. Eve is still reaching out for the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The serpent is still, you know, lurking between us, kind of trying to tempt us. God is still saying to us, whoa, whoa, whoa, be careful, be careful of the choices you make. You may make a really fundamental wrong choice. And that's happening all the time. It's not a historical occurrence, it's happening right now. So the idea of the Torah being, the world being created in Hebrew, for example. Do I know if the world was created in Hebrew? Factually, historically, I have no idea. And it doesn't matter. But in our inner narrative, in our mythology, in our system, yes, the world was created in Hebrew. God said, and it was so. Now, so what? Are we choosing to follow things that were never proven? Like, why would we want to do such a thing? If the way we prove things in this realm, in the spiritual realm, is not if we can prove it under a microscope, or if we can prove it in an archaeological dig. The way we prove it is, how does it resonate? How does it resonate with us today? So for example, the fact that, hopefully we'll get that Adonai appears here. Adonai appears here for the very first time. He's mentioned throughout the book of Genesis. But he's revealed to human beings for the very first time in this parasha. And it resonates deeply. If we'll talk about it in the coming minutes, Adonai compared to Elohim, I think we talked about it last week as well, and compared to El Shaddai, Adonai is a whole other divine force within us. Now if I know that divine force, and I know that divine force within me is a force that leads to liberation, it's a force that allows me to come out of really narrow straits in my life, i.e. Mitzrayim, then I immediately resonate with the story. So the proof that you asked about, the proof is, if this explanation deeply, deeply resonates with me, and moves me forward in life, and enriches my life, and makes my life not only deeper and higher, but also more alive, that means that that's the truth. That's a wonderful approach to truth. It's not one that we use at the Technion, but it's certainly helpful for life. And a small distraction, Elisha, because you mentioned moral philosophy, and a philosophy teacher. I've been interested in Rabbi Sachs. We study Rabbi Sachs every two weeks, and his commentaries on the Torah. And you too, you and Rabbi Sachs share a common background. I don't know if you know this. He grew up without a Jewish education, and he went to Cambridge. He was a brilliant student, and he studied moral philosophy at Cambridge. And he was not religious. And then the Six-Day War happened. And he joined students at Cambridge in prayer, because Israel was in deep trouble then, as we are today. And after that prayer, he became interested in Judaism, and went to Yeshiva at a later age. He went to a small yeshiva in London called Yitzchaim, and became a rabbi. And he became very famous. He was on the BBC all the time, because he had vast secular knowledge with great curiosity. Because he knew moral philosophy, he understood other religions, literature, psychology, science, but also knew the Torah very deeply. He became kind of a media star. And eventually became chief rabbi of the United Kingdom, and was in deep trouble because of this eclectic approach that he took, interpreting the Torah in terms of broader knowledge. The Haredim didn't like a lot of what he said and what he wrote. And he tried really hard to be the chief rabbi of everyone, which is, as you can imagine, really, really difficult. So I was just thinking, Elisha, what would Israel be like if we had a chief rabbi who had studied broadly moral philosophy, like some of the great rabbis of the past, Soloveitchik, for example, and Hesho, who had broad knowledge and broad wisdom. And the Lubavitcher Rebbe. And the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who studied engineering in Sorbonne. How different their worldview would be. Yes, indeed. I think you're absolutely right. I think what's so powerful for the Bar Mitzvah families when we have these conversations is, suddenly they hear a kind of Torah that they never get to hear. Because if it's only from a very narrow Jewish perspective, and Jewish perspective can be very, very broad. It doesn't have to be narrow. But often, unfortunately, it is narrow. And it follows a very certain faith, a very certain Jewish language. And that is difficult for most Israeli secular Jews. And they're yearning. They're yearning for more. They're really turned on and yearning for more. And I think we're bringing a new Jewish discourse to the land. We're not doing it alone. There are many others in Israel. But the non-Orthodox congregations and rabbis and organizations are indeed bringing a dialogue, bringing a discourse that doesn't exist here in Israel. Interesting. So, again, the topic of your drashah is despair. For those who don't despair. And you connect Vayera, which is in B'reishit, and Vayera, which is the parasha we're discussing now in Shemot. And they both reflect despair. Why? Because in Vayera, we have Avraham, who's 100 years old and doesn't have a son. And he's in despair. And in Vayera, we have Moshe, who's chosen by God as the leader of the Jewish people to liberate them. And Paro is really not cooperating at all. And Moshe is in deep despair. And you talk about how we deal with despair and how it's a part of life and how great good things emerge out of despair. And I believe that because I see that all the time in working with startups. Elisha, the metaphor for startups is very much the metaphor of B'reishit and Shemot. The rollercoaster. You're on a rollercoaster. You start with an idea. You're on a high. You can't raise money. You're on a low. You raise a bit of money. You're on a high. The money runs out and you're on a low. And you're on this perpetual rollercoaster. And that's life. And that's the Torah. And that's the story of Yetzirat Mitzrayim with Moshe, who despairs to God in the depths. And God says, it'll be OK. And Elisha, so many people are despairing. I'm not one of them. I'm an eternal optimist. People close to me are in despair, seeing the trouble we're in. But we read Parashat Va'edah and God reassures us. It'll be OK. If we could only hear that voice, which is very, very quiet these days here in Israel. Yes. Well, first of all, thank you so much for bringing this up because I think it's really, it's such an important message at this time that it will be OK. And I can hear in my own head, all the people are saying, what do you mean it's going to be OK? Only this morning we woke up and we were notified about four soldiers who fell in Gaza. A very, very famous Israeli singer and songwriter who was severely injured in Gaza. And it's quite shocking because we're used to seeing him on the stages and performing in front of thousands and thousands of people. Amedi. Amedi. Idan Amedi. Idan Amedi. Who's now, you know, he's being treated in hospital. He's in a critical situation right now. So we want to wish him also, so of course we're in despair. People are dying, you know. Our hostages, 133 hostages, or 136 I believe now, are still in captivity. So why would we not despair? And it's really, it's a paradigm shift. It's not anything that I could say to try and convince them, no, it's not that bad, you know, we've seen worse times. That's not where hope comes from. It doesn't come from that. It doesn't come from trying to argue with the facts. The facts are difficult. It's very painful when four soldiers are killed and even more obviously very, very difficult for their families. They lost a loved one and their lives are falling apart. It's just so incredibly tragic. So how do we come out of despair in such a situation? Well, among other rabbis and teachers, it was Rabbi Nachman who said, There's no despair in the world at all. Now Rabbi Nachman, we know, suffered from severe depression, a bout of depression. He was manic-depressive and when he was deep under, I'm sure it was horrible. It was a nightmare. But he knew something. Only a person with manic-depression who knows something deep about manic-depression could say, There's no despair in the world whatsoever. And I often wonder, what did he know? What did he know? So when he would go down under in times of depression, he allowed himself to go deep into depression and he would say that he's going deep under in order to collect gems from the underworld, from the depths of existence. And most of us are just so scared of depression, so scared of feeling bad, so scared of feeling depressed, that we will do anything to snap out of it. We will escape to all kinds of things. And Rabbi Nachman didn't escape. He allowed himself to sink down, down, down. And there he found his deepest discoveries. When he went down, that's when he finally resurfaced and emerged. His greatest stories and greatest teachings came from those deep, deep places and one of my teachers used to say, he's no longer alive, this teacher, but he used to say, If only we didn't fear our own feelings, we would be absolutely okay. And so one way of having no despair is recognizing that going deep under, even despair itself or sadness or even depression has a lot of richness, a lot to offer us. And that's number one. Number two, as I quoted before, Olga, the Holocaust survivor that I visit every week, she's going to be 99 this February, and she said what kept her alive during the years of the Holocaust was she had this mantra, Tomorrow will be better. Tomorrow will be better. She still says it today. I've mentioned her before already. She says it today. My sense is she doesn't believe herself anymore. Tomorrow will be better. She's not so sure if she's going to be around tomorrow. But I believe her. Because I really do believe tomorrow will be better. Tomorrow will be better. But what does that mean? What does it mean tomorrow will be better? Is today indeed better than yesterday? Not necessarily. So what does it mean tomorrow will be better? So Elisha, I have a practical way of implementing tomorrow will be better. One of the things we teach startup entrepreneurs is to develop a powerful vision for their company. What is the meaning of their idea for people? In the future. I told you I'm working with a group now called the Minhalat Tkuma. This is an organization working on rebuilding the Western Negev settlements, the Kibbutzim, the industry and agriculture. And we're now doing something interesting. The plan is not to impose a plan on them as big shot experts. But first of all to find out what their vision for the future is. So in a deep despair one of the things you can do is to develop a vision for the future. Because when you're down there will also be an up. Like on a roller coaster. But what will that up look like? And what will I do to make that happen? So you begin with a vision of the future and only when there's hope for the future can you really come out of the despair. Because if you have no vision for the future if you think the future is the same it's very hard to come out of your depression. But if you understand there is a better outcome and you know what it is and you can see it and you know what you have to do to make it happen it's a very, very important tool. So we will now do interviews with these wonderful people. With business people and leaders and community leaders and the Kibbutzim and we will ask them that question and they will not have answers initially. Because I think many of them, understandably are in a situation where they have trouble seeing it. But we will gently stimulate that thinking and then based on that I hope with His Minhalat Kumal we can make it happen. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. It's so hopeful what you're describing now. It's amazing that during this we're in the midst of the war and yet there are these amazingly bright people who are already planning the day after and rebuilding and that's kind of what it is all about. And I want to suggest also, Shlomo there is a spiritual factor in here as well. I really do believe that within creation there is a power. The power that moves everything forward. This is the power that is responsible for evolution. It's the power that because of that we are so much more evolved on so many levels than past generations. And that power, that innate, it's innate within nature. Not just within human beings. Within everything there is this power. I see it as a religious person. I see it as a divine power. Or someone else could see it as a natural power. Spinoza would certainly say it's a natural power. To me it's a divine power that continually strives to move forward. To take the next step. To evolve. To grow. To flourish. And therefore tomorrow will be better. Now, even if I die tomorrow tomorrow will still nevertheless be better. Because if I do believe on a spiritual level that within creation there is that force that moves everything forward and evolutionizes everything forward then even my own demise, my own death is somehow mysteriously moving everything forward. Absolutely. So Elisha, on the way... Aren't you supposed to argue with me? I thought we were supposed to argue. I'm not succeeding. It's hopeless. It's hopeless. On the way here Elisha I kind of was reflecting and looking down at the sidewalk and on the sidewalk in the cement, in the concrete there's a little crack and out of the crack is a flower that somehow found a way to survive and thrive and reproduce sticking up through the concrete. So you're absolutely right. There is this immense power of life the vigor of life in nature. It's part of life and that's why Elisha I'm optimistic because we're dealing with enemies who worship death. We saw this yesterday. We saw terrible, terrible videos of our enemies taken from their cameras. They have cameras on their heads and when they go into battle they make sure that they film everything because they want to show to the world how great they are at causing death and destruction and they speak repeatedly on this video about being shahidim about being victims about dying. By the way their officers are not so keen on doing it because the officer sent his soldiers ahead into the danger and he kind of stayed back where it was safer. The exact opposite of the idea. Exactly the opposite. There's a lot of hypocrisy but nonetheless their ideology is to worship death but life itself, nature the planet we live on it is life that has the life force and not death. Yes, absolutely, absolutely and you know people in I think people get very confused here when talking about martyrdom because we too when our soldiers go out to war we hear a lot of statements like I'm willing I'm going to put my life on the line for this country, for this state sounds just a bit more maybe more another way of saying the exact same thing but it's not. The singer Hamedi who's lying in hospital now with shrapnel over his whole body he left a note many soldiers leave notes behind they know they're going into danger but he left a note saying that his deed in battle will be the greatest performance of his life. Wow, that's amazing even the car and the road there thought it was amazing and so one would say you see their martyrs and your young ones are martyrs as well they're all martyrs but it's not the same it's not the same when you put your life out there first of all, you don't want to die you're not going out there in order to die you're going out there to do your job and you want to come back to your family first of all, you're not going out there as a shaheed, as a martyr that's difference number one difference number two is you're fighting for life and it sounds like two opposites but it's not really two opposites you're fighting for life and when you're fighting for life that's, I think, in my humble opinion according to my religion that's true martyrdom because you're sacrificing life for the sake of life not for the sake of death and of killing more people and that makes all the difference in the world when someone, when a soldier and there's so many of these stories that came out after the 7th of October a soldier or just young men or women who jump on a hand grenade knowing they're going to save just people around them sometimes they don't even know the people around them but they were the closest they jumped on the hand grenade knowing they're going to take the blow and obviously die and the others will live that is, you know you could say, well that's a shaheed that's a martyr no it's not it's an act of life for the sake of life for enhancing life I want to tell a story about that about a young lady who was taken hostage this was on a television program called Uvda with Ilana Dayan who does wonderful documentaries her name is Nili Margalit and she was taken prisoner from Kibbutz Nir Oz and she's a nurse she's been a nurse for 12 years at Soroka Hospital she was taken hostage in her bathrobe by civilians many Gaza civilians poured across the fence to see if they could loot, steal and take hostages and she was taken back to Gaza by civilians who then sold her to the Hamas for money that's who we're dealing with, Alicia Nili is a nurse and she was held together with some of the elderly people they were ill they needed medicine she made a list of the medicines that they needed she argued with the Hamas demanded they bring them she demanded to have a blood pressure measurer she took their blood pressure every day she took care of the elderly people she even improvised an inhaler one of the elderly hostages an older woman had asthma severe asthma, they're kept in the dark tunnels with very little air she needed an inhaler Nili took a spoon some kind of menthol liquid and some hot water and improvised an inhaler for Tommy so that she could breathe and it worked and she was released after some 50 days after taking care of all these people this is life to preserve life even in the worst of conditions and she's now living temporarily in an apartment near Kiryat Gat with some of the other and she intends to go back after recovery she'll go back to work at Soroka to preserve life like nurses and doctors do you know the high ranking Hamas arch-terrorist I don't know what it's called in English who was killed eliminated, shot whatever the word is, in Lebanon last week Aruri he's from the village of Arar his name is Aruri so he once in an interview that he made an Israeli journalist who wrote his PhD if I'm not mistaken about him how does a person become a terrorist and he said how much he how jealous he is of Israelis for how they cherish life he was really deeply moved by Israel's willingness to release so many terrorists for one Israeli soldier for Gilad Shalib and he said we don't have that we don't love life as much as Israelis now I'm putting my own words there we don't love life as much as Israelis love life and that's what Golda Meir said Golda Meir said when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us there will finally be peace so we need to conclude Elisha already? I'm having so much fun yes, we didn't even argue maybe next time I want to read a quote from your Drosha, the last lines of your Drosha, this is 2018 this is absolutely relevant for today you write that I hear many voices of despair political despair national despair this is good, I am sure because it must be the harbinger of the next stage, spring and hope are right around the corner, Amen Amen, Amen, Amen the darkest hour is just before dawn, yes so may we see the dawn soon, Amen, Amen and remember there is no despair in the world whatsoever Goodbye Goodbye
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