Virginity_potaudillic_

Hi, and welcome to CRUDE. I'm joining you in London with the lovely Essie. Hi. And we have Frank and Misty in Berlin, the studio in Berlin. And today we're going to be talking about virginity. So first of all, I just wanted to say hi, see how you are. I've been hanging out with Essie the past few days. We've been having fun here in London. How are you guys doing over there in Berlin? I'm fine now. I had an application deadline, and I handed in successfully, even though I had bad insomnia last night. So I barely slept, but still, you know, this is my climax. We saw someone's dick get pierced multiple times. Oh my gosh, yes, we did. Yeah, we were blessed to be able to see one of these beautiful goddesses has someone that she practices kind of like cock and ball torture, and some of it includes being pierced. So I think she said he had about 18 piercings on his cock. No. And then she would decorate it with using colorful string or thread. And it was really, it was really a gorgeous kind of display. And then he paid for us all to enjoy some drinks and cocktails afterwards, so. Does he get an anesthetic before the piercing? Is there an anesthetic, or do you just go bang, straight through? No, no, it's part of the torture. Wow. Is it getting tattooed and everything as well, like with this little handheld tattoo machine? No gloves, no, like it's meant to be like nasty and raw. Yeah, and I was loving it. And I'm like, pretty much talked to her about how much I actually like it. And now there's a chance that I might be her apprentice. So I'm very, very excited. Yes, I'll be shadowing, shadowing her. Like penis piercing? All of the above, the CBT, which is cock and ball torture, the piercing, the needle play, which I'm very into. Like I just, I've started to discover that I am into a bit of blood play. Wow, because I recently saw a play in Berlin, Ophelia's Got Talent, it's actually quite famous. And a person was piercing her cheeks, like on stage, in both cheeks really. And it was bleeding and she kept, you know, going through the holes with the piercings. I found that actually quite difficult to watch. When Misty says the show is wild, at one point in the show, and I'm not exaggerating, a helicopter descends from the sky. Three of the women get up in the helicopter and start to fuck the helicopter. Then the helicopter comes in a swimming pool where there's some women swimming in the swimming pool. And a bunch of kids come out and start pulling the comb, the huge lumps of comb out of the swimming pool and putting them on the side of the pool, while another woman sits in a glass bowl underwater with a scuba tank on. And there's also someone getting tattooed on the side of the stage as well. And also someone has weights on their labia, heavy weights. And then, you know, doing gymnastics with them. Sounds great, actually. Brilliant theatre at its best and worst. Today we're going to talk about the untainted, the pure, the chaste. We're going to talk about virginity, popping your cherry, getting big blouse. And we'll discuss whether it's a cultural value, a social construct or a medical state. But first of all, what actually is it? How would you guys define virginity? That's a really good question, because if you want to think about virginity just from hetero norms, it's when a penis enters the vagina for the first time and that's when that's losing the virginity. And if you haven't, if a woman or a pussy owning person hasn't had a penis inserted into their vagina, then they're still a virgin. But I'm sure we can all agree that that is not the case. But even today, in 2023, that's the first thing that people would think of when it comes to virginity. Would you agree? Definitely for guys, for, as you say, hetero cis, that's me. It was definitely putting my penis inside a woman's vagina. Are you a cis? I don't know what I am. I really don't. We have this thing with Ebbie. I'm so bad, I don't know what to say anymore. I'm terrified. I have my internal... You are cis, you're a cis man, but you're not hetero. Can you please write this down for me and I can put it on a little thing around my neck? Pat him flat on your forehead. There, flat. Can I do that? It would be so much easier if I could... You know, slut is now, you know, it's gender neutral. I'm a slut. I don't know what else to say. We'll just call you a cis slut. So, I wasn't analysing the frame that much. What are your stories about when you, quote-unquote, lost your virginity? Yeah, for me it was very clear. Even though I used to be a lot to my shower head before and also I had a lot of soft play with small penises when I was in elementary school. Oh! No, to the point where my teacher actually, you know, took me aside and she was like, Melina, you can't keep doing this stuff under the tables. I know, with pencils? No. With paint, no paint. With Dennis's small penis, he was really enticing to me. Another child? Another child, yeah, he was... Naughty! Oh my gosh, I couldn't... No, for sure. He was like, you need to stop. No, definitely when I visited my friend, Marius, when I was six. We also locked ourselves in and I pulled his skin really far. Oh! Full skin. And he loved it. Yeah, but all that didn't come from me, no. I think I was turned 14 when I met with a guy, when I slept with a guy, like proper penetrative sex after a ski vacation where I had met him. And he had, like, black light and his room smelled of weed and it was over very quickly. And I went to... Actually, no, I went to pee and I was like, oh, yeah, there's blood. And then I went to the liquid room in Berlin with my mother, actually, soon after, and lay, had my head under the surface because you can listen to music under the water. And I was like, wow, that was it now. What have I done? It was a really reflective moment for you in the liquid room. And a really non-passionate, unhurt moment, for sure. I think... I mean, you said you were 14? Yeah. Did you have the feeling you were getting something out of the way? Something you wanted to do and, like, now I've done it and it's OK? Or were you into the guy and you were attracted to him and you wanted to have this sexual experience to move past hurting little boys' foreskins? LAUGHTER No, I think, like, it was definitely being among the tough girls in the class. I was in eighth grade and there were two or three girls that I had already had sex with in my class and I wanted to be with them, up with them. Oh. That seems more common for people I've spoken to here about it. I grew up in the States and there it was very, like... You could get blowjobs, but there was very... First day, second day, third day. All of which are kind of sex acts. But then the home run of having full, quote-unquote, full sex is seen... A lot of people would wait until prom night to do this. I don't know if it's changed, but for me, I didn't. I had a boyfriend at the time, which was nice. So it was with someone that I knew, which was cool because I could also keep having sex then with him once we had sex once, but then I just wanted to have sex all the time. Of course. But it was this progression, I think, because we had these ideas. So it was, like, first base, he touched my boot, and then I went, OK, shall we go to second base? OK, yes, let's do it. It was all very sort of measured. Can I ask, when you say about first base, second base, was it, like, on the same night or on different occasions? No, different occasions. So he was older than me, I was 14, maybe I was 13 when we started seeing each other. Same age as Misty. And then it was like, OK, yeah, let's do this, and then I was like, OK, I want to fuck your dick. I don't think we used the base age, but it was definitely this, like, step-by-step into fucking. Is there a third base? Is first base second base? No, I just wanted to say what I learned about this vocabulary for the first time here in Germany. I was sure that second base is, you know, like, PAV sex, and that third base is anal. Wow, wow, that's... No, that's just you, Misty. No, no, no, no, no. Second base is, like, touching your boobs, like... OK, all right, all right, yeah, yeah. I don't even want to ask you what a home run is in Misty's universe. It must be... Yeah, home run is just... Gangbang. Yeah, it's just some gangbang. I think we spoke too little about, like, half penetration. It's... I really love it. Just a tear? Just a tear? Exactly, just a little bit. It's a tip. A bit in the morning and then you want more later just to keep you going for the whole day. That's pretty hot. And I wonder if people would consider that just a tip is... If it was the first time and it was just a tip, would they be losing their virginity or not because it doesn't go all the way? Well, this is the thing. So, like, the actual... There's no actual science behind the hymen. So this idea that you can prove someone's virginity is completely false. No, just quickly, like, what does it mean there's no actual science? And there is no strong correlation between penetrative sex and breaking the hymen? Is that...? The hymen isn't actually... If your hymen's sealed off to your vagina, you wouldn't be able to menstruate. So there are a very rare number of people who have a hymen that fully covers vaginal opening and they would have to get surgery. So most of the time, it's a skin membrane of varying thickness. It varies person to person and you can't concretely tell this person has had sex based on their hymen. And I think the statistics I read were 70% of people don't bleed despite this whole blood on the sheets thing. And I was going to say to conclude my virginity story that I didn't bleed when I had sex with this guy, but I like to say that I lost my virginity to the Pacific Ocean. I was in junior lifeguard, which is like a kid's lifeguarding program and we had to jump off this very high pier, I think when we were 12, and then you're supposed to cross your legs when you jump, and it's very high and I slailed and I just smashed against the water and it was so painful and then I was bleeding after this. I like to feel that I lost my virginity. I love that story. No, it's funny because I was going to say that for my quote unquote losing of my virginity, I also didn't bleed. I was with a boyfriend who was from my same kind of community, my same religion, I was 22, I was 20 years old and I just thought that I was going to marry him which is why I felt confident to lose my virginity to him and so when we did finally have penis and vagina, so it did hurt, I felt extremely uncomfortable and again, just like you Elle, I didn't bleed and my boyfriend at the time was well, are you sure you're a virgin? And I'll just never forget that moment that he asked me that because it's just like fuck you and the interesting thing is that he had told me that he was not a virgin, that he had sex with someone in a park so he had had sex and then one year later when we were having some issues with our relationship and I broke up with him and he was trying to lure me back into getting back with him he revealed to me that he was in fact a virgin when we both first had sex which is interesting I had to make sure that I was one and he had to make sure that he wasn't one and of course it was again with women needing to be pure and all this, but yeah, so I didn't bleed either and yeah Have you actually ever lied about being a virgin afterwards? Oh God, okay, so that's my second part is that when I broke up with this boyfriend and it took me so long to break up with him because I was so scared that my community would bar me and that I would lose so much that I would be shamed and shunned and when I finally got the balls the metaphorical balls to break up with him I was so scared that I would have to lie to my future husband and tell him that I was a virgin and I was really suffering with this idea and thought that I'm ruined now, I'm going to have to lie to my future husband I was really brainwashed at the time and it's mad to think of it now that's why it took me like 5 years to break up with this guy That this didn't keep you from fucking him still in the first place before marriage, right? Because I have one very close friend who by now is an atheist but she was very clear for her that this is a gift you can only give once The reason I did it Oh, so they waited till marriage Oh yeah, yeah I waited 3 months The thing of it being a gift because it's either the metaphors around it are either something you lose or it's a gift which I know is very much in that I do remember when I was in between 2nd and 3rd or maybe past their base Misty's base or everyone else's? You're about to get anal I was going for the home run and I had this very absent education in the States you know, it's going to be the end of your life if you get pregnant and then I jerked him off and then I sat in the puddle of his cum and I was so proud of myself I know I didn't mean to I sat in it for a second and then I was like, oh my god I'm definitely pregnant now I went to the pharmacy to get the morning after pill but then was talking to the pharmacist because you had to have this consultation if you were under 18 and I was like, no, I haven't had sex you should have just told me to fuck off but he was like well, you know, I tell my daughter that you can only give once and you can never come back from it and I was like, what? this is the chemist? before giving me the pill I tell my daughter she's a cool daughter yeah, exactly and it's funny that you remember that now because did that slow you down from going to third base? I just knew what I wanted very clearly and then I was just like especially dying at my dad's age at that age for me, it was just really embarrassing it was like, just give me my pill how long did you wait between second and third base? I think the whole thing from when I started seeing this guy it all happened within the space of six months it was also very much about where we could fuck and our parents being at home so having to wait for our parents to go out and then when we did actually have penis and vagina sex I think his mom went somewhere and we were like, we know this day she's going to be away so we filled up to it it was really cute and we had anal sex right away what? that's not a slippery slope that's a slippery cliff just have a very big asshole I can say it it's gaping constantly do you want to tell us your story? my story was I've been into fingers and tongues I was the only guy who was into giving girls heads when I was even a young teenager I was really into it at this age, boys never talk about this stuff but you were talking about it and you found out nobody gets down on girls? I wasn't, boys weren't talking about it but the girls, you'd say I think there was a term at the time it was like, lick out and I said, I licked her out and the guy said, that's disgusting did she suck? I forget the terminology oh no, I don't like that so then I can remember there was a whole gang the older guys used to light fire pick off the girls they liked and the rest of us would end up getting very drunk and messing around I realised after a while that some of the girls were coming to me because they wanted to be with someone who was going to lick them out because the other boys wouldn't do it I think at some point it may or may not have happened but it was definitely something that was weird because some of the girls would ask would say it to me will you lick me out? sounds like me at a sex party losing my virginity that was with this I don't even know where she is I was with this girl I think I was 14 and we went back to her parents she lived in a pretty block of flats in central Dublin went back to her place for some reason her mum and her mums boyfriend they were all passed out drunk on the floor of the sitting room sort of sleeping with stuff on them her mum and her mums boyfriend and some other guy they were basically passed out drunk and the mums boyfriend was a total psychopath because I knew him because he was from the area and she's like ok let's do it so she's sitting on the counter and she was having her period and she was really wet and I remember being terrified I was terrified of the mums boyfriend because if they woke up I was probably not going to leave that apartment in a very good state wait why did you go to the kitchen? was there no way to get to her room? no it wasn't hot there was no hot back then as a teenager I didn't feel hot anyway I didn't feel hot until I was in my thirties I'm just picturing when someone gets caught red handed you'd have been caught red handed because you said she was having a period so I just remember she sat up on the counter and then I was standing there and the heights kind of worked out great counter whoever built that kitchen thank you and then she was pushing down on top of me I wasn't even doing the movement because she was way more into it I had to stay completely quiet and I can remember thinking oh this is incredible but all the time listening to these drunk people snoring in the next room and knowing that if one of them woke up especially this boyfriend guy I was in serious trouble I just remember this whole puddle of blood and comb and everything on the counter on the machine and then her walking me back out to the door and leaving I used to tell my friends if there was a podcast I would have put it on if there was a loud speaker I would have shouted it from the bridges I actually remember because I was so early because I had just turned fourteen I thought I was going to be super cool be one of the cool girls it was working on me more than I expected so that even at the time I was like oh maybe that was too early I felt really good about it I wasn't a nerd I wasn't a slutty girl the slutty girls just get blowjobs anyway it was not expected of me somehow in my friend group did you tell your friends? no I didn't tell anyone I didn't feel any shame personally but you knew that you would be judged I thought it was kind of a fun secret I guess this was the second time because he lived in one of these and there was a pool and a sauna and then we were fucking and I think I was on top of him and we were in the sauna and there was an AstroTurf on the floor a sauna with AstroTurf that is California I think the sauna wasn't actually hot so we were fucking in there and then I scraped all of the skin off of both of my knickers I just didn't notice and then I went to school and people were like oh what happened I thought that was fun I do remember going to soccer practice after getting fucked in the ass and I was just like nobody here knows I've been fucked in the ass you know I was talking to a friend the other day talking about the show she lost her virginity twice once was someone putting their penis inside her and the second time was when she first got a wand and came and came and came again I just said a minute ago a hot came to me in my thirties so I can remember going through all the routines and doing this stuff and doing this and the blowjob but it really wasn't until my thirties that I started to discover what was hot like really wanting something and desiring something and for her interested in the time she got that wand and came and came and whatever happened years ago she said oh it was non-eventful it kind of hurt I thought that was interesting this idea of two virginities I think if you move away from virginity which is mostly on women to sort of their purity is a way of protecting the honor whether it's their family or community or even nation and then if you move away from all of that historical stuff then I think maybe a more meaningful discourse is for it to be part of your narrative so whether it's a narrative of I don't know developing in some way having a significant experience a bond that changes you or maybe if you've had sex a certain type of way and then I have a friend who calls it a lesbian ascension so like whenever someone like stop fucking men then she's like oh yeah you've had your lesbian ascension so that could be something I think it's more that it can be kind of transformed into this language of a life journey right different pivotal moments so this question might be too naive for us to leave it on but do you happen to know that in the lesbian community how is losing your virginity defined is it still penetrative I guess it's not but in the sense of getting fingered or getting penetrated in some other way or is it coming for example probably also could be well so many questions and so many answers I just know that some of the lesbians that I've come across have told me that for them going all the way is going down like eating pussy for them that's the most intimate act that they can do and I think for some it's probably not for all because you know also in some relationships there is no penetration and in some there is but I think with losing the virginity it's hard to say there was another discussion on this what was the reality tv show the queer ultimatum where one of the singers the other one and then there was this whole discussion of that with sex I guess if you don't define it as penis and vagina then it is somewhat what actually sex is how do we define sex and I think particularly us four were kind of chatting about this upcoming episode and writing in the group about gay men and gold star gay which is a man who's never slept with a woman or touched a pussy oh no who's never had vaginal sex with a woman and then there was the platinum gay who was born out of a C-section so therefore has never literally had a vagina so there's that there's that take away from virginity or from this virginity needing to have a penis and a vagina but then with gay men they can lose or with people with penises and buttholes they can lose their virginity from penetration in that way whereas with vagina vulva owners do they need something to be penetrated to have said that they've lost their virginity doesn't a tongue count obsession with penetration 100% because it's even how you see this different historical persecution of gay men whereas you see like women having sex with women is just kind of cute I don't know which maybe comes back to the like woman is property thing and if you're getting married you're going from being your father's property to then your husband inheritance so we had a little break and we're back with our guest from last week G who's going to be sharing some anecdote about one of their virginity experiences with us yeah it's so nice to be back thanks for having me again I really don't think so much about the first time I had sex as my virginity interesting fun fact because that was with someone I cared about and it was painful and bloody and not that great but what was great which happened a few weeks after the fact was my mom asked have you had sex yet and I said yes I had just started dating this guy I've been spending a lot of time at his place and the second question she asked me was was it good and I was shocked looking back now my mom is really not sex positive I think she has a lot of shame she was raised in the midwest in the states and doesn't want me to even share with my brother something I'm about to share with whoever is listening which is that she got married because she got pregnant with me and I found that out from a family friend and so I remember after she asked me this question I said yeah it was and I was really curious I said how was your first time and years later I brought that up and I said mom that made me feel like something bad happened to you it made me feel like you weren't able to confront your own past why didn't you want to tell me about your first time and she goes I didn't want my history my experiences to shape yours which is valid but I said mom that's not the case I was living my own life I'd already had sex that wasn't going to change anything and she was actually still at that time to tell me about the first time and I thought that was really interesting and I really felt for her as someone who maybe actually wasn't able to have these conversations so I'm really grateful to be able to talk to people like you about these sorts of things because so many people in my immediate life and world aren't and I think probably a lot of people don't so yeah when did you find out that she had been pregnant with you you said you found out from a family friend was it long after and did you tell your mom yeah I was probably like 25 and I was like oh that's so funny mom I just found out and she goes no I'm still really ashamed I know I shouldn't be but I really struggle so she was ashamed because she had been pregnant out of wedlock which is such a big thing for a lot of people and a lot of religions and a lot of communities I just find it funny because you mentioned that you were thinking I can only sleep with this guy because I'm ready to marry him but then you still slept with him and from you know my grandmother for example from you know western Germany somewhat religious like average religious education she had sex with my grandfather definitely for sure the marriage for the wedding and in the field you know this detail a field or a forest a forest is romantic a field is trashy ever since you turned 19 what how dare you it depends on the field the field is romantic a field sounds more comfortable than a forest yeah for sure it wasn't an open road are you thinking about the back field behind the house exactly with a couple of broken down cars some slack jawed guy right after war, war Germany wow and like despite a conservative average conservative religious education she had never it clearly wasn't on the level of actual felt remorse or commitment to these kind of norms so like I'm always surprised like a spectrum of what attitude people can take to these norms right they really if they I don't know have integrated them fully into their moral and emotional system you know you keep up appearances but you really don't feel bad about the fact that you follow your horny 18 year old self people have just always been I've been thinking about it a lot because I've been reading a lot in this other research project about SPI which we talked about before on syphilis and then I'm like if people were just even if you could get this like most horrible disease of syphilis and they were still fucking for centuries like I mean we're here then like people will just fuck no matter what yeah which is mad as I mentioned earlier I waited until I was 20 years old to lose my virginity and the reason I waited so long is because I was waiting for marriage right but then when I found this boyfriend that I knew I was I thought I was going to marry and the reason is because we were the same religion nationality blah blah blah and that's why I did have sex with him because I thought for sure 100% that I was going to marry him and I only waited 3 months to do it but then also that's why it took me almost 5 years to break up with him because I had had sex with him I wanted to leave him within 2 years it took me 3 years approximately to break up with him and I think we also talked about my cheating story and that was with him and and that was and and I was with him and it was about 4 and a half years into our relationship that I finally spoke to someone else I was so so scared to break up with him because of the repercussions of being a young woman who has had a boyfriend that everyone probably maybe thinks but we never lived together of course that we had had sex and it was very very scary for me to do and as I said I thought that I would have to lie for the rest of my life to my future husband um yeah I was going to have to go in and pay for a designer Heimann rejuvenation but also back to the mothers so not long after I broke up with this guy my mother invited me to speak in a way that she has never done before and I was like what the fuck is going on she wanted to sat me down outside of the home and she was like Effie I want to ask you something have you had sex? I can't remember the precise wording because it was about 15 years ago or however long I don't know if she said have you had sex or are you a virgin by the way by then after that not only had I been with a boyfriend for 5 years and then I thought that's it my life is over I'm never going to have to marry the next guy and lie about my virginity it only took me about 2 or 3 months to then start having one that stands and getting into my hoe phase it didn't take me that long but because I was so brainwashed so deeply that it was a really hard thing between being with him and then being breaking up with him and then suddenly being a woman, a single woman that didn't have to marry the first man that put his dick in her pussy the bus driver I have another kind of disappointing virginity story but this is the first time I really fucked someone with a strap it was a big orgy in Hong Kong that I was dating someone new and they were there it was our first time at a play party like that and I really wanted to show that I was really comfortable but I threw myself into this kind of scene with someone who really wanted to get fucked with a strap and had one and I was down but I was so disappointed because I couldn't really feel anything and it was such a let down because I was expecting like yeah I'm going to just like get to really finally be inside someone and like really get to fuck with a dick and I'd always fantasized about really having a dick and and it sucked so that was your strap virginity, it wasn't the person who you were strapping virginity exactly, it was my strap virginity there you go, that's back to the thing about different ways to lose virginity clearly the concept of using your virginity is directly linked to how you define sex, right? Has your definition of sex actually felt, changed in a felt way over the years? My definition of sex has definitely changed in a felt way because I'd also had sex with women maybe in my early teens but they never classified that as sex, it was just kind of fooling around but then as we talked about it's kind of like where you draw any of these lines I think is really blurry but I think as I've gotten older it's definitely expanded what my definition of sex would be to be less about penetration but then I think the overall cultural discourse around it has changed. I've definitely recently started including sucking dicks as sex in my head, it was a switch I had to change so if I've sucked someone's dick I've had sex with them but that was a huge mental movement for me, that took a huge shift. Yeah, I think it's also got to do with you doing it not a woman doing it historically like a woman doing it to a man as base, what base is sucking dick? Uh, third? Yeah. Yeah. I would love to put a diagram of Misty's bases because they're different than everyone else's. I was like, no. Do you remember too since you also grew up in the States what the bases are? Someone asked me this the other day and I couldn't really remember but I was like making out maybe fondling some boobs, it's always fondling a second. Yeah, and then maybe fingers and some genitals is third and then but then there's like home That's home run. That's home run. That's the end goal. That's when you score. You're always ahead of your time Misty. Base is ahead of your time. Wow, that was talking about sick base. Okay, but do any of you keep track of how many people you've quote unquote fucked? I was going to ask, when does someone quote unquote fuck? Because I have a list but at some point I started including AFAB female presenting, identifying people and then at some point it's like, well I'm only going to really start counting people if we've came together. I don't even know. I think I also used to have a list. Me too. But I gave it up about 10 years ago because then I was like, okay I was also seeing a lot of clients maybe like 5-6 clients a day Would you include them on the list? No, so then I didn't include them because I know it was all bad. I don't have time to. I also have a list because as you may have realized I started really late like if you don't, I mean I guess 20 was my boyfriend and I only fucked him for 5 years so imagine breaking up with him when I was 25. I want to say that the bus driver may be like my first fuck to be honest or losing my virginity really officially and then yeah so I didn't really start fucking until I was like 25-26 so then of course I started writing a list because it was super exciting but then I started going to play parties and orgies and gangbangs and then the list was just getting like out of hand and then I wanted to add like clients or other those kind of jobs on the list or what counts or what doesn't count and was it penetration and was it like a pussy or not so then it kind of became blurry because when you realize that you're queer and you have encounters with people who are not what you used to fuck and then what's the list about so this is the problem right because I feel like once you've done it all in some sense you kind of even lose interest in the question of how sex is defined totally boring it's a very good question for Frank you know an actual question sooner rather than later what are you going to tell your kids about losing their virginity what are the important acts or are there important things that you wanted them to know about their first sex I don't know, that's strange because I don't know how intimately they'll confide in me four stories, I've got two girls the middle one's a boy three kids, I don't know how they're going to talk to me about it when answering questions now especially from my nine year old she's madly in love with some boy and all the girls in the class don't like her at the moment because another boy is in love with her but she doesn't like him she wants this other boy and he doesn't like her at the moment so she's in this love triangle that's causing all this trouble how do you know about this I feel like she will talk to you about it or did the teacher tell you she talks to me about this but I remember this from my eldest as soon as pre-teen pre-puberty, maybe pre-period everything was open because it's just so abstract to them but then when it becomes more for at least my eldest it seemed to be something to do more with her getting her period then everything changed, then the conversation changed then everything got more quiet and she didn't feel like speaking to me about certain things became more embarrassing but there is something really cute about pre-teens you can talk completely openly with them and you can also be very open about the mechanics of things but what would I say to my kids, I don't know maybe, I don't know they don't feel it I also wonder if all of this because it's again this way of categorizing sex whether it's categorizing sexual identities or behaviors it feels like an inherently kind of policing thing to do to me somehow to be like this is where the boundary of this thing is as in a parent talking to the child not even a parent talking to a child but even us and ourselves the way we define this I think if sex is sort of a language or a practice or then there can be degrees of it, it's not, most of the times where I'm thinking where it's really important did sex happen it's either with a partner who is like did you talk to him or not did penetration happen or this kind of proving, you know this is also kind of proving a woman's virginity is that whole construction of like did sex happen policing question in a way that we're just so comfortable with because so much of our culture is based on that do you think there's still context where you think it's important to yourself yeah I want to say actually I was thinking about what I said about like people coming and I was just actually looking at my list and I was like I have people on here that I wanted to have sex with but I didn't I talked about sex a lot so what is this, is this your fantasy list I mean it's there are different bits of the list there's like people who maybe were inside me or I was inside them there were people who I was hypnotized with or you know like where we had sex if that's important if I loved them, this was from my yes era of like I had to love someone to have sex with them in my first few partners like one of those strange things that I told myself was important but then you're like oh I love everyone I mean it does make it good a lot of the time again you can have different kinds of loves just like different kinds of orgasms no but I just really love that you in real time took out your list I really love that you still have a list me too I actually went out of my way because I had a handwritten list in this little book and I just literally went out of my way to take the list and rip it out and put it in the bin because I was like this list is toxic like it doesn't it's meaningless to me now and there's a lot of people on that list that I didn't want to fuck or I didn't want them to fuck me or there was a potential like bad situation like SA or just when I look at it I'm like this is not who I am anymore so I had to physically rip the list apart and put it in the bin and now the list is basically in my phone whether it's a text from them or a picture and I'm really getting into like filming people that I'm really into with consent and that's how I look at it and I can think of it in my sweet little head so I think we've dispelled ourselves enough for one evening thank you all for joining us in this deep muck dive into virginity and we'll talk to you next time on crude and if you'd like to send us some stories on insta you can find our insta page under crude or crude.berlin at gmail.com if you'd like to share some stories anonymously of course we'd love to hear them thanks for having me thank you so much everyone bye