ep_recs

The hosts discuss the perception of feminism in pop culture, highlighting how it is often misrepresented and misunderstood. They recommend several books and TV shows that explore feminism in a nuanced and empowering way, including "The Liberation of Sita," "Pandora's Jar," "Seeing Like a Feminist," "When I Hit You," "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel," "Sex and the City," "Good Girls Revolt," and "Derry Girls." They emphasize the importance of recognizing women's autonomy and choices, as well as the need to challenge societal judgments and stereotypes. The hosts also discuss the impact of media on teenage girls and suggest that portraying them as intellectuals could potentially shift their focus away from pining over boys. Hello and welcome to our podcast Coffee plus Disprint. I am your host Sanjana and with me is my friend and co-host Varnika. Hey Varnika, how are you doing today? Not too good. Not too good. Then I think we should turn the tide. Yes. Because I know one thing you love talking about is giving me book and TV show recommendations which are all about feminism. Yeah. It's my favorite topic. Exactly. And I think you give like amazing recommendations. Yeah. So before we get started with the recommendations, I think we just want to sort of touch base on, you know, how feminism is perceived in pop culture, right? So like, what are your thoughts on that? Feminism is perceived as angry feminist. Angry feminist, she wants too much. She's demanding too much. These girls want everything. Yeah. I think for example, there was a movie, I think a couple of years ago called D.A.D. Wedding. It was touted as some sort of feminist movie and just because it had four women lead. That's why it was touted as, you know, like a feminist movie. And then later there was a lot of backlash that, oh, is this what feminism is about? Smoking and, you know, like, you know, sleeping around and everything. While first of all, the movie never said it's a feminist movie. And second, like, why do you have to like sort of put everything in that box, right? And feminism is not about smoking or sleeping around. It's actually about not judging women for smoking and sleeping around. Yes. But the popular concept of that is that when you are asking for something, so basically feminism is asking for equality. And when you're asking for something, the one who is asking has to be beyond all reproach. Matlab, that person has to be like, no black spot. Oh, yes. So the kind of woman for whom people will make the exception ki, okay, theek hai, isko equality de do. Haan. Because she's so spotless. She deserves it. As if, you know, a woman has to earn the right to equality. Yes. Agar, by chance, tumhain taange dikh gayi. One ka. Then you've lost the right. And cleavage ki toh baat hi mat karo. Yes. Oh my God. You're so right about that actually, you know, that having a spotless character to, you know, ask for basic rights. So this is exactly what happens in most kinds of criminal cases against women also, na? The first thing that is... They question your character. Haan. And not only your character in that particular... Episode. In general. In general yeh toh aise hi kapra pehenti hai. Haan. In general toh she sleeps with many men. And also, see, coming to the main point, right, like, I don't think... I mean, feminist movie does not mean that a movie that has a male or a female lead, right, like a female lead. Feminism is generally not portrayed in movies. For example, female friendships are portrayed in a way that ek dak, there's a main girl aur uski sidekick. And, like that infamous Kabir Singh dialogue, where Shahid Kapoor goes to this fat girl. I'm so sorry to be using the word because that's what was used in the movie. That, you know, I think the insinuation was that chubby girls can become friends with the main girl because unka combination accha rehta hai. Haan. Competition nahi ho gaon. Exactly. Like, I mean, female friendship is... Ya phir they're always catty. Like Gossip Girl mein. Yeah. Claire and Serena. Yeah. They are the archetype of catty friends. But, Vandekar, can you, I mean, I know you don't watch a lot of Bollywood movies, but can you think of any movie that actually portrays female friendships or a female character in a very wholesome way? Matlab not in a very caricaturish way. Like, I can think of ZNMD, which portrayed male friendships in such a nuanced way. Do we have some sort of counterpart of that for like a female version of ZNMD, which I don't know that they're making, but something along those lines do we have in Bollywood. Ek toh mujhe yaad hi nahi aara the kinds of films that I've seen. I don't think they've seen. I mean, I think I asked this question to a couple of other people, even they couldn't think of anything. I think one response I did get was in Yeh Diwani, Naina and Aditi were shown as like non-comparative friends and everything. But the movie barely focused on their friendship, honestly. Even I have not seen the movie and I know the characters you're talking about. Kyunki woh the other one jiski wedding hoti hai. Aditi. Yeah. So, nahi nahi. That is not. I think in books also, I wonder how, like of course books are all, like women read a lot of rom-coms and I don't read a lot of rom-coms, so I can't really say how women are portrayed in books in general. And I don't watch a lot of Indian OTT platform shows, so I can't comment on that. So, my recommendations are probably gonna, you know, be all about, I mean for the lack of better words, like Hollywood movies or... Oh, we live in a globalised world. Yeah. So, let's get started with the recommendations. Yay! But actually our first recommendation, which you reminded me and I recommended to you and you also loved it, is as quintessentially Indian as it can be. It's called... The book is called Liberation of Sita and it's by Volga. She's a Telugu author and the book has been translated into English and it's a set of stories, if I'm not wrong. It's a set of five stories and the premise of the book is it starts when, you know, Sita is abducted and it tells her story. It's not like Palace of Illusions because this book is more philosophical, I feel. Like, I'll quote from this book actually. One of the start quote. Most often, women don't realise that they are a part of the wider world. They limit themselves to an individual, to a household, to a family's honour. And this, unquote. And this holds so true because in pop culture, we are made to think Sita is nothing but Ram's wife, who was abandoned. We think that she's an amazing lady. She's pure. She's, you know... No, she's not only abandoned. She's so dedicated that instead of staying back at the palace, in the luxuries of the palace, she chose to go along with Ram. She fought to go along with him to the forest. She's that dedicated. Yeah, so her character's flawless. But in the book, when we hear Sita's POV, it's more along the lines that she's like, I'm not Ram's wife anymore. My life is bigger than that. She's finally reclaiming her life. I think that's what I remember from the book. Yes, she realises that she's Sita, not Mrs. Ram. Yeah! Like, you know, so many... That's the premise of so many so-called feminist books like Mrs. Dalloway. She kind of starts to lose her identity. She's Mrs. Dalloway to the world, to herself sometimes. She forgets that she's a human being apart from being the role that she's playing of a wife. And you know what I loved about this book also? I remember the way Sita talks in the book. She loves her children, love and kush, but her life is not about them also. She's like, I'm reclaiming my life, my individual identity. And the interesting part is, she comes to all these realisations by talking to the other women in the Ramayana who are normally vilified. Yes, exactly. Like Supadkha, whose nose was cut off, and she's portrayed so sympathetically. Exactly! How mean! I mean, not just propositioning. Lakshman could have said no. Varnika, that's the premise of even Pandora's Jar, right? Yes, this is the next book we would highly recommend. So Pandora's Jar is non-fiction. It's actually a little academic also because it's very well cited. So this book is a collection of stories where, actually I'll explain this using a simple example. Percy Jackson got very popular when we were children and I grew up thinking that Medusa is some sort of villain. Same. And this book actually corrects all these myths about women. For example, Medusa was not a villain. She was a woman who was raped by Poseidon, right? Yes, she was raped by Poseidon because Athena, the goddess of something, she got jealous of Medusa because Poseidon raped Medusa. And Athena was in love with Poseidon so she got jealous that, you know, so and so. So instead of punishing Poseidon, she cursed Medusa with the head of snakes and everything. And that was a curse and later when Perseus actually chops off her head. It's actually a very sad story because she was protecting her sisters when her head was chopped off by Perseus. So it was a very merciless killing. Oh yes, I remember this now. So Perseus is said to be a hero, right? But the way he killed Medusa is actually very sad because she was sleeping and she was protecting her sisters and she was killed while in her sleep. So there was nothing heroic about killing Medusa in her sleep. Oh, probably because, you know, when Medusa looks at somebody, they turn to stone. So they had to kill her in the sleep, no? Yeah, but the way it was portrayed in pop culture that, oh, Perseus is so heroic. Oh, of course. Why not? Just put all the blame on women. So never blame stupid Paris for abducting Helen. Just say, Helen's beauty was so enchanting that she made the whole war happen. Similarly for Sita. And similarly for Draupadi. Who not? Yeah, like all the wars are based on the premise that the woman's beauty was so enchanting that some man had to come and abduct her and the woman's husband had to go fight for her honor. I mean, yes. But these books really go deep into these myths and they give you such an insight that even if someone, like, I believe you're well-read people, when I read these books, I'm like, wow. Like, you know. Which is what brings me to my next recommendation, which is Seeing Like a Feminist by Nivedita Min. This is also a nonfiction book, not very long. And it's like, it's feminism 101, but it is not feminism 101. Also. When you read it, you will also feel like this is like something you knew, but you did not know. Give me an example. Like, so in the first chapter that I remember very distinctly from the book, she starts with how and she quotes like the study which says that in India, women would prefer to do sex work over doing domestic household work. Hmm. Yes. Oh, wow. Because it is, it is more dignified when they're doing sex work. Like, it breaks down how through every little thing, women's dignity is taken away from them. And domestic workers, and how people in privileged places, privileged households treat their maids, show so much about where we place women in society. Oh, that sounds very interesting. It is. It is very interesting. And I, I forget all the other examples. And she covers such a vast range of things, everything from transgenderism to culturally in India, how have we treated the community called hijras. And it's a fantastic book. So from the sociological perspective, and it covers things in a way that you will find something new. Well, then I know which book I'm reading next. Yay! Which actually just reminds me, there's one book I recently read. This is a little different. It's, it's fiction. It's called My Nemesis by Charmaine Crick. And that book actually talks about this woman, it's from the POV of this woman, who is hating on another woman because she doesn't agree with the lifestyle of the other woman. Because she thinks the other woman is too meek. She's too subservient. She thinks she's serving her husband. So she hates on her like anything. She's like, you're not a good feminist. Ooh. At the end of the day, what actually is brewing is this woman who's, you know, saying all of this, she's in love with the, that woman's husband, since she's hating, basically, and she realizes this at the end. But I mean, it's not very, it's explored in, it's a very philosophical book, because it's exploring how we judge women just because we don't make the same choices as us. Just because one woman chooses to be more domestic than, let's say, me. I, why should I be judging her? But we have, we all have. Exactly. So it talks about the philosophy of that, like, you know, how it sort of functions. And how sometimes it's easy to, it's quite easy in society to disown women, actually. Yeah. Or to blame them for things that happened to them. At the same time, dis them, they're not doing enough. Sometimes they're asking for too much. Yeah, I think that's always in extremes we talk about. Exactly. This book is just like a case study on how women judge other women. And it makes you more conscious about the fact that yes, you have judged other women. And probably you shouldn't, because you don't know where the other woman is coming from, what her upbringing has been like. Maybe she's a feminist herself. But just because she has different choices than you does not make her any less feminist than you. So one last recommendation before we move on to movies and TV shows is this book by Meena Kandasamy called When I Hit You. And this is semi-autobiographical, based partly on her own marriage, in which she's domestically abused by her husband. And she writes about it so beautifully. It will touch you, it will make you cry so much. Because she says that she grew up thinking that domestic violence and women feeling trapped in their marriages happens when they're forced into marriages. It used to happen in small places. And this is a woman who has chosen to marry this man. And how through his little actions, he completely takes away her autonomy and makes her feel so trapped. She can't even reach out to her parents to ask for help. And anything she tries to do will be taken as overreaction. And it's written so well, Sanjana. It's written so heart-wrenching. Women tend to judge themselves a lot, right? Because everything you're thinking is a reaction, overreaction. Am I being too sensitive? And if I am so well-educated, how could I have gotten into such a marriage? And you know, just of course, I'm digressing right now. But even in general, in relationships at our age as well, because this has happened to me, where I feel like I'm such a flag-bearer of feminism. But I have dated men where I'm like, what am I thinking? Because from that feminist angle, because that person is not... There is subtle sexism right there, which I'm ignoring. And I mean, the best of us can fall free to it. I think, like you've discussed, it's all about recognizing your own patterns. But coming back to the point, I think our next set of recommendations is going to be TV shows. TV shows. Which is the first one you'll want to recommend. Marvelous Mrs. Maisel because he talks so much about it. I mean, that show is epic, Varnika. I absolutely love the friendship between Suzie and Midge. It explores that female dynamic so well. Amazing. And how she... You know, it's not about outright feminism, you know. She's doing this because she wants to prove a point. But she's so confident in herself and she doesn't let anyone boggle her down. That is amazing. And when she gets bogged down, Suzie doesn't let her get bogged down. Exactly. It's amazing, right? That show is the best. Okay, so what is your next recommendation, Sanjana? I think my recommendation would be Sex in the City, the show. Oh. And I'll tell you why. Okay. I haven't seen it, so... And I think everyone should see it. Because the show explores the life of these four women. And each is a separate archetype. And I feel... For example, Samantha. I think she's iconic. Because she's embracing her sexuality in that show like anything. Like she's underbashed about who she is. Not just sexuality, but about who she is. And I think if women have that level of confidence... I mean, it's going to be a women's world and men will be living in it then. Because you just need to have that level of confidence. So I was really inspired by that. And in general, again, it explores the dynamic of freeman friendship. And, you know, how each of us are different. And we can still be really nice to each other. And, you know, it's okay to... Like one woman wants a really high-powered career. One woman doesn't. It's okay to have your own choices. Having the choice is feminism. Exactly. So that is my recommendation. Any other recommendations you have? Yes. I really want to recommend Good Girls Revolt. It's on Amazon Prime. And it's... I just found it by chance. It's not a show I've seen recommended anywhere else. It's based on a true story. Written by Nora Ephron. About her initial days in Newsweek. Where did she used to work? News of the Week. But they renamed it to News of the Week in the show, I think. I have no idea. I saw like a few episodes. Just fun fact. Nora Ephron is the director of the most popular movies. Harry Met Sally. Sleepless in Seattle. Julia and Julia. And she also... She writes also. I had no idea. That's what I'm saying. Because I knew her as a director when Harry Met Sally and Sleepless in Seattle. Because those movies are like... You know, the epitome of pop culture in 80s and 90s. Yeah. Also, Nora Ephron wrote this based on her real experience. In which, I can imagine the way she's portrayed in the TV show. Her being this firebrand. She encourages this group of women, where she starts working, to ask for equal rights, basically. Which is something very basic. These women do just as much work as their male counterparts do. But since the male counterparts are reporters and they are researchers, they never get the byline. So eventually, nothing they write is published under their name. Even though they do write a lot. So, it's a very nuanced exploration of how personal relationships can begin to break down once you ask for something like this. Because all the characters among themselves feel conflicted. Like the men also feel conflicted. Some of them are on women's side. Some of them think that they've been blindsided by this sudden request. And some of them come with some platitudes. Some of them say, why do you even want to do this? And it's a very interesting approach. I love that show. You know, one more reason I think I would recommend this show is a lot of women don't realize how bad things used to be. We are very privileged because maybe we don't see a lot of... Let's say, in our line of work, we may not be seeing pay disparity. Very obviously. Just talking about us. A lot of people are still facing pay disparity. But maybe we are and we are just unaware. No, I think in our... Actually, you're right. It might be. But it's not that obvious. And of course, if we want credit, we get credit. A lot of men and women don't know the roots of this. You know, where this movement began. There is a reason feminism sprouted, mushroomed, whatever you want to call it. It gives a very good historical context. Things weren't so easy. A lot of women, your ancestors have fought for the rights that you take for granted today. Yeah, and they fought so... This show is set in the OG bra-burning feminist era. It's funny. 60s was like the worst. And one last show that I want to recommend is Derry Girls. Just for the fun of it, it's not an overtly feminist show. But since out of five, the four main characters are friends. It's a group of girlfriends. They are just... They are so... Cool. They are not like... They are not archetypes, actually. All four of them are unique. And I think the female friendship part of it is they take each other very normally, I think. And the society around them takes them even though it's set in the Ireland of the troubles. It still shows the four of them as not being these typical teenage girls. One of them is, though. Writing poems and pining after boys. But overall, it's a funny and interesting take on maybe how teenage girls are also evolving in film and cinema. Varnika, do you think... This is an open-ended question with which we can end the podcast, actually. Do you think that more teenage women... Teenage girls, sorry. They were portrayed more as intellectuals in movies, in pop culture. Do you think we'd be pining less over guys? Oh, for sure. Like, all we see in pop culture teens is stupid pining. Like, I don't know. The only thing I can think of right now is Twilight. Like, how crazy is that woman? That stupid Bella. Constantly, she's like... You know, I read a lot of Meg Cabot and I thought that was how teenage life was supposed to be. Which was like, you know, all you care about is a boyfriend and you know, something, something. And grades, they come automatically. And sometimes I used to wonder if most of pop culture showed that women, girls actually care about reading and they care about math competitions. Let's say, just giving you examples. Although, I would say that this... And yes, you're right. The world is changing a bit because the show on Netflix that has like an Indian main character. I forget the name. Mindy Kaling's show. Never Have I Ever. Never Have I Ever. That showcases the lead girl as being highly, highly academically competitive. But at the same time, whining over a guy. Yeah, but... You know, that's a huge part of her personality. The fact that she wants to go to Yale. But do you think that's just because she's Indian? Because... Yeah, of course, they're stereotyping me. But no, could be. Could be a change in how... I really hope that is a change because, you know, when you're young, you're influenced so much by this pop culture, right? And she's also, like... These girls are also not shown as poor women who need boys to save them in some or the other way. Like, you know, girl was sad. Boy played a song for her. That was in the movies of the 80s and 90s. That is what... You know, I explained it already. Things I hate about you was about... Even though I really like that movie. That's based on Othello, right? Yeah. I love that. No, no, no. Some other Shakespeare movie. But... No, I get your point. Changing of the show. So, I mean... Yes, I think... Times... I'm really hoping the content is improving because as 25-year-old, 26-year-olds also, we're also consuming content that, of course, subconsciously is influencing us. 26, 27, Sanjana. 27-year-olds we are. I wanted to lie to our podcast listeners. We will cut this out. So, I really hope that, you know, consuming good content that... I hope I'm not influenced by nonsense like... You're a liar, I'm a cheater. Oh my God! Nobody can be influenced by it. Because if there was anything that was the most influencing, so that was that poor girl's aversion to living in a... But she eventually agrees, no? So that was fake, like... So totally fake, like... Just to bring it to that ending, it was. Everybody was convinced by her first argument. I was fully convinced. Sister, don't marry him. You were convinced, no? So, I'm really hoping that women will go and watch that nonsense and be like, yes, we can live in a joint family because... Uska conviction bahot zyada sahi tha. And she should have stuck with it. Yes, I hope all the women do realize that, and yeah, that Bollywood movies are in general shit. Yeah, and... Actually, most Hollywood movies also. Most of the culture is... Because the writer's rooms are all men, no? Usually. And when it's a woman, they probably ask her to shut up. You know, there's this movie reviewer on YouTube, I'm forgetting her name, Sucharita Tyagi. Yeah. I love this thing she says. Women writing women's stories. Yeah. Because that's... Because when women write men characters also, na, then they turn out to be Mr. Darcy, no? So women should... We will learn more about Mr. Darcy in some other episode. We will do that. Mr. Darcy is so amazing because a woman wrote him. We will learn more about him in the next episode. Until then, see you. Bye! Read a lot. Yes. Watch a lot of television. Do it again. How do you end it? Okay, bye. Keep reading. And watching. Oh, and with this, we come to the end of the episode. Keep reading. Keep watching. Quality content. Yay! Quality feminist content. Yes. Bye!