Final Podcast: Afro-desendent struggles in Latin America and the Caribbean

The main ideas from this information are: the Afro-descendant struggles of Latina women in Latin America and the Caribbean, the racism and discrimination faced by Afro-descendants, the impact of colonial legacies, the political representation of Afro-descendants, the social movements and advocacy groups working for equality, and personal experiences of discrimination. Okay, well good morning everyone or good afternoon. I'm Karisma Ramos. I'm Francesca Lopez. Hi, I'm Cecilia Garcia. Hello guys, I am Yan Limbe. Today we will be talking about the Afro-descendant struggles of Latina women in Latin America and the Caribbean. Let's start with the song. Let's talk a little bit about the song first. How do you guys feel the first time you all heard the song? I was surprised and shocked. It was pretty cool, you know. It just reminded me of home. It was cool to watch a video or just hear a song about somebody blatantly expressing their identity and not caring about any backlash that would come from it. Because that's so different from what we see in all the history of Latin America and the Caribbean. How about you Yan? I was really surprised about it as well. Coming from where I'm from, we don't really know discrimination. I mean we do have some, but we don't really... Like you wouldn't think countries from Latin America would have those types of issues between them. So it was really interesting to have that type of perspective. Yan, can I ask where are you from? I am from Cameroon. Matter of fact, where is everyone from? Well, I'm Cecilia and I'm from Ecuador, Mexico. Okay. Well, I'm from upstate New York in a small town, but I am Puerto Rican and African American. Okay. Yeah, I'm Charisma again and I'm from Manhattan. And yeah, and my family is from Mexico and Puerto Rico. Let's describe, like, what are we calling the struggle of Afro-descent in Latin America and Caribbean? When I looked up what Afro-descent struggles actually mean, I found a quote that I thought pretty much described it. Yeah. It's from the United Nations Human Rights Office of High Commission. And it basically says, Even Afro-descendants who are not directly descended from slaves face the racism and discrimination that still persists today, generations after the slave trade ended. That's really crazy because it's true. Yeah. Like, all this happened so long ago when a lot of people are still feeling the effects. And a lot of those people live in Latin America and the Caribbean, and not even just there, but all over the world. Speaking of slavery, you know, I think, like, during the era of European colonization, you know, millions of Africans were forcibly, like, brought to different countries, mostly, like, Latin American countries and Caribbean as slaves. And they were just, like, exploited under violence and pretty much dehumanized. So, I think that's a really deep subject to talk about because now their descendants are affected by, you know, what happened in the past. Yeah, like, all the implications of colonialism and imperialism, they kind of set the forefront for slavery and how these people are being exploited. And it's kind of crazy to see how, like, European countries will bring slaves over to do basically their dirty work. And now we have to face the consequences and be discriminated against for things like skin color. Yeah. Racial discrimination is a real thing. Like, I feel like a lot, mostly a lot of people go through that. Afro-descendants continue to face systematic racism and discrimination in many aspects of their life. This includes employment, housing, education, healthcare, and criminal justice system. Yeah, adding on to that, I also found more information that relates to that from the Pan American Health Organization. It states that a new study of Afro-descendant populations in 18 Latin American countries demonstrates that they live with dramatically unequal social and economic conditions that damage health. Another aspect of, like, the struggle of Afro-descend living in Latin America, I would say the political representation, kind of. Like, let's be honest. I want to say we because, you know, I feel like I'm part of it. We are underrepresented in the political leadership positions because you don't see a lot of Hispanic or black people in general in those type of positions. But I feel like it's starting to change a little bit. For example, we have a woman, a black woman, who is the vice president in Columbia. Is it Columbia? Yeah, I'm sorry. That's not right. Columbia. So, yeah, I think it's starting to change slowly but surely. Yeah, and it definitely starts with the vice president of Columbia because she's the first black woman to win the vice presidency in that country. And she can very much, like, recognize all the struggles that people do go through because she relates to it. So it's actually really nice to have somebody in that position that can understand where the people are coming from and what they do have to struggle with. Like, she recognizes how each generation has to fight for the land, their natural resources, and for their biodiversity, for the riches that our territory holds. And we've seen, like, throughout history how that's just been continuously exploited by mainly European countries and the U.S. as well. So, again, it's nice to see somebody in power that can make an effective change for the people. Yeah, definitely. Adding to the vice president in Columbia, we also did a homework assignment of extractivism in Columbia, and it actually talks about black activism in Columbia as well. Yeah. Talking about its, like, historical, political, and how capitalism plays a role in keeping these systems in order that, you know, are kind of racist. Yeah. Afro-descendant communities have organized social movements and advocacy groups to address their grievances, demand justice, and promote equality. Movements such as the Black Consciousness Movement, Garifuma Movement, and Rastafari Movement have played significant roles in raising awareness about Afro-descendant struggles and pushing for change. Yeah. A lot of white progress has been made, like, in some Latin American countries, and like we said, the times are changing a little bit. We still have, like, challenges that we are facing. Some countries have implemented affirmative action policies, established cultural programs, and recognized, like, the rights of Afro-descendant communities. Full inclusion and empowerment of Afro-descendants still require efforts and people that are willing to be there and do it, including, like, the changes in social attitudes and policies and, like, the institutions. Any other questions or topics you guys would like to talk about? Actually, yeah. Yeah, and that is a great point, but I'm going to kind of shift here. We see, like, in a lot of the struggles of Afro-descendant Latin American and Caribbean people, we see a lot that people are judged on physical features when we cannot control them. So, for example, hair, noses, just, like, facial features like the nose, ears, hair, everything is used to judge Afro-Latin people, and that's also seen in the media a lot. Like, I'll add, in the Denying Brazil documentary, we see a lot that most producers would rather choose a white actress or actor for a lead role before they even consider a black person for a lead role. Yeah, I think there's still a lot of work to do towards Afro-descent getting recognized and having their voice heard, but we're going towards the right path or the changes we want. So, any other questions you guys want to talk about? If not, I'll probably ask this. How have colonial legacies impacted Afro-descent communities in the region, so, like, in Latin American countries, and what are some challenges they are facing today? I feel like colonialism inspired, like, heavy heteronormativity along with creating the ideal image of a Latin or Caribbean individual. And I think, though people may not mean it, society does uphold some of those standards, especially in, even just in regular life. It's a little different, not saying that I have a different perspective, but, like I said, I wasn't born here, coming from, like, a third world country, and having, like, thoughts about how, like, other countries live together. You would think Latin Americans don't really have, like, issues between each other, or there's no discrimination, there's no racism, there's no... Because, you know, for example, we have Dominican Republic and Haiti, they share, like, the same island, but most of them don't like each other. And the first time I heard that, it was really surprising, because, you know, you guys are sharing the same island, you all pretty much look alike. You will hear that and start questioning what went wrong, kind of. But, you know, like we said, colonization, just the white people wanted to brainwash, pretty much, the native people and indigenous people that were already there, which, as we know, started creating, like, all those type of issues we have today. It's kind of crazy to think about Haiti as well, because we read this semester how Haiti as a whole had a revolution. I know I didn't know about that before class. Like, that was kind of crazy to read about how they were essentially the first group of slaves to self-liberate, but we don't hear about that, because they were kind of shunned by society, because they were painted as, not like the criminal, but painted as the villain in that sense. Yeah, I definitely agree. And they don't even get much credit. And the article that we read, it wasn't even talked about. They don't teach us that in school. We had to wait until we got to college to learn that. Which is actually crazy. Like, no disrespect to the school system of America, but God. No disrespect for keeping all this information from us. For hiding all this. I don't know, but I'm glad I get this experience to learn about different people in Latin America. A lot of us come from both countries. Yeah, we are going towards the change that we want. Yeah, I wanted to add, I don't know about your school experiences, but like, kind of looking back into high school, I know for me the biggest racial discussion was, you couldn't be two things at once. So I am Puerto Rican and African American. But in the school sense, I was only African American. That's all I learned about. That's the only thing people identified me as. So I was like, okay, I'm African American. And I'm like 100% okay with that. But I didn't really recognize my Puerto Rican side until high school. And I actually started learning about my culture from my dad. Not school, my dad. Again, it's interesting to come here and actually learn about the culture that we're a part of. And see everything that contributes to how the world works today. Socially and institutionally. Yeah, definitely. I'm Puerto Rican, but I'm from generations of Puerto Ricans that have been here for a good minute. So I still might not know much about Puerto Rico. I mean, obviously I still celebrate the culture, eat the food. But I feel like as generations go on, we start to lose that part of our culture when we're here in the U.S. And the adults around us are idolizing these Western ideals. Yeah, I definitely agree with you guys. To be honest with you, I don't know much about Ecuador or Mexico and its history. Even though my parents were immigrants. And yeah, it just kind of sucks growing up and not knowing this. So we're not saying the schools should go heads over heels and try to teach us everything. No, they should change their education system. It would just be nice to at least get to have a class where you can learn about your roots. Yeah, at least we get to have this. And this class isn't even mandatory. People choose to go and learn about their faith. Yeah, about the video, like the song. For those of you who don't know, the artist is Victoria Santacruz. The song is called Mi Gritaron Negra, or in English, They Yelled at Me Black. Like, it's not even a song, it's like a poem. Just go check it out and I'm sure you will like it. The first time we watched the video was in class, right? Yeah. It just starts with this black woman, Victoria. And I'm pretty sure the title speaks for itself. Just walking in the streets and getting called black out of nowhere. Just feeling attacked, kind of, for your skin color. Even though you shouldn't be feeling attacked, because most of the people around you are black too. Even though there's like different skin color in the same country. Like, y'all should not be having problems between each other. Or like, starting fighting each other. That's my opinion. I don't know about y'all. I agree with you. We all human. We all share the same blood. Not the same blood. It's all red. Doesn't matter what skin color you are, how your facial features are. You are still human. Yeah, that's right. It's cool to know that she's Afro-Peruvian. And how these struggles don't just limit themselves to one country. Like, we see this in Peru, Brazil, Colombia. Name any Latin American country, honestly. Or just any Latin country, any Caribbean country. It's all universal. We all experience the same, just the same struggles. Just for being different. Yeah, that's right. I kind of want to talk about this, um, these Elizabeth Acevedo videos. Because our target audience is Afro-descending women. And I feel like in these videos, she's directly talking to them. One of them is called hair. So in this poem, she's basically talking about how growing up with like this curly hair. You're always told to straighten it. Or it's ugly. Or go do something with it. And this poem is actually really powerful. It's basically just telling these young girls to love and embrace their hair. And that it shouldn't matter what others think about it. And it shouldn't be a problem to other people. It's their hair. They can do what they want. Their skin color. It's nothing bad. Yeah. Right. You can't fix something that was never broken. And I feel like a lot of us who are mixed definitely feel that way. Like sometimes I feel like I'm not Mexican enough. Or I'm not Puerto Rican enough. Or am I even American enough? Because I was born here. Definitely. But like when is it enough for anybody? That's what I'm saying. That's a great quote. But it's okay because it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't. If you guys, the people that are listening to this, have any comments, anything you want to say. Or more questions about it. Especially you young, young Afro-Latinas out there. If you have any comments, any questions, or you want to start any discussion, you know. Feel free to reach out. So yeah. It was Yan. It was a pleasure to do this podcast. And I was here with. Cecilia Garcia. Francesca Lopez. Charisma Ramos. And today we have the honor, the pleasure to be with Dr. Cruz Bueno. During her time at New Paltz in the Black Studies Department. She has taught courses in race and racism in U.S. History, Blacks in the Caribbean, Intro to Black Studies, and the History of Slavery in America. And these courses are directly in line with Dr. Bueno's teaching and research background. Which largely focuses on the web of social forces that produce economic inequality. Often at the disproportionate expense of people of color. She has presented at a number of regional and national professional conferences. On subjects including gender violence and poverty in the Dominican Republic. And other Latin American and Caribbean nations. And is recipient of the 2014 Rhonda Williams Prize. From the International Association for Feminist Economics. We are honored to have her today. I'm really happy to be here. This is fantastic. And I'm ready when you all are. So I'll start with how I identify. I identify as a Black Latina. I am a Black woman. I am a visibly Black woman. My mother is Black. My grandmother is Black. Every woman in my family is a Black woman. And so I've been raised by Black women. In a very proud culture. And so for me, being a Black woman is really most important. And then in terms of my ethnicity. My parents are from the Dominican Republic. But I choose to identify as Latina. Because I really, I try to be as anti-nationalistic as possible. But even in my own family, like one of my brothers. He identifies as Afro-Indigenous. He doesn't even like the term Latino, Latinx. Like he totally rejects that. My sister identifies as an Afro-Latina. I think my other brother identifies as Afro-Dominican. So even within the same family, we have different ways to identify. That's actually interesting. That's really cool. Okay. Cecilia is going to start with a question. All right. So the first question I have for you is what does it mean to be Afro-Latino to you? And I think that's a great question. Because I know how I identify. But then what does it mean? When I think about what it means to be Afro-Latina. It really is thinking about how all Latin American cultures are African-based cultures. Whether we see them as African or not. Because every single country had plantation-based economies. And those were the basis of economic development and social and political and economic development. Like I said earlier, all of these spheres are shaped by Africa and by blackness. And the new black culture that we created in the Americas. So for me, it really is rooted in looking at the achievements and contributions of my ancestors to the region. I am very proud of our culture. Even though some Dominicans do not identify as black or as Afro-descendant. That in and of itself is like anti-blackness and being just brainwashed. Because Dominican culture is very black. No matter how you look, we are practicing a black culture that has its roots in Africa. Even coming from the Latin America part, the Latina part. For me, I still see it as very political. To me, the term Latina is a political term. It is a term that comes about at the same time that black comes about. Because you have the black power movement and you have the brown power movement. And even the brown power movement with the young lords was very anti-colonial, anti-Eurocentric. And it was a return to the Afro-indigenous roots of our people. And so for me, even being a black Latina, being an Afro-Latina is rooted in, it is a decolonial project. It is a project of liberation and freedom. Second question. Do you mind sharing any bad experiences you may have had with discrimination? Thank you. Yeah, I think that it comes from all sorts of places when you are Afro-Latina, black Latina. Because the first time I was called a nigger, I was six years old on a bus by these two white kids who I thought were my friends. And I think what happened is that they played with me and my brother. And then they went home and their family started talking shit about us. Everything you could say bad about black people. And then those two little kids internalized that. And then the next day, I think we played on a Sunday and a Saturday. And then on Monday on the school bus, it was like, it was so violent and aggressive. And of course the bus driver, an old white guy, didn't do anything. And nobody, everybody was kids, right? I guess there was nobody to intervene. But it was traumatic. I got home crying. I couldn't breathe. I was, I've said this before, it's like how James Baldwin says, when black people find out they're black, it's never a positive experience. Because you just think, you know, we're all kids, we're all here, we're all playing. But then it's also been from people from the Dominican Republic that they'll see me, they then hear me speak Spanish, they're like, oh, I didn't, I thought you were just... And they'll say whatever it is they think. Like, oh, I thought you were brown, which is sometimes the way that they call African Americans. Or, I didn't know you spoke Spanish. People that look like me and my family are not common in DR, which is crazy. We're, Dominicans are black, and there are so many Dominicans that look like us. I mean, in the DR, I've had people like use maldito negros, which is akin to being called the N-word in the U.S., I suppose. And then it's just so strange. At least here in the United States, there are anti-discrimination laws and civil rights protections. In the DR, none of that exists. So it's a really strange place. And then it's also other things. Because we are black, black people have claims to citizenship here in a way that you can't deny. Black people have been here longer than white people when we look at the historical record. So then there's also this other layer of being black people with accents and being black people with Spanish names. So I remember in college, I was the assistant treasurer in the BSU because at University of Florida, it was called the Hispanic Student Association. And it was run by the Miami Cubans, and they were Republicans, and they were white-identified Latinos. They were Hispanic, right? They identified with Spain. I went to one of those meetings, and I was like, oh, this meeting is not for me. And my girl was like, yeah, we're going to BSU. And I was like, yeah, let's go to BSU. And I was the assistant treasurer, and I had some of my peers be like, oh, Cruz Bueno, that's a funny name for a black person, right? Not realizing all of our names that we have here, those are not our real names. Because it was a Spanish name. They thought, I think I got a B on a geometry test in high school, and that was a bad grade for my parents. So my mother called Ms. Cook, and the next day in class, Ms. Cook went on and on about my mother's accent and how she had such a strong accent, but I didn't have an accent. So how was it that my mother had one and I didn't have one? And I was like, but Ms. Cook, did you understand her? She was like, oh, I understood her. I just couldn't believe she had such an accent. You know, and it was all these little things, and it's coming from all directions. But I'm sure that that's the experience of most of us people of African descent in the Americas. You know, it's like it comes from everywhere. I also just wanted to, like, emphasize on the six-year-old story being called the N-word. Even as a little kid, like you said, you went back home, you cried, and you couldn't breathe. I think some people think that kids sometimes don't realize about those type of stuff, but I'm pretty sure kids are the ones that are most aware of what's happening, and they know when something is bad or not. Even though they're still in the process of learning. Like, six years old is pretty young. I think that's the age range where you start to, like, learn about the world and what's bad, what's wrong, and what's good. It was the way they were saying it. You know, like, they were just so angry and violent and aggressive. I still remember that day. I will never forget that day. And I didn't know what that word meant, but the way that they were talking to me and treating me and behaving, I knew it was a bad thing. Just I didn't understand. I was completely confused and caught off guard. And it was like, I think it's like now that I can start talking about it and not crying. Like, in the recent kind of years. I know that I've talked about it, not even like five years ago, and it made me cry. But it is quite traumatic. Have you ever felt like you wasn't black enough for black people, but also Latina enough for Latino people? Yeah, I don't know. These questions are really good. In terms of how I look and my features, there's really no question, right? I'm a visibly black person. I think it's strange, right? I think some black people consider me light-skinned, which I don't. But it depends where you are, where you go, what space you're in. Every time a white person describes me and every time I've looked at my medical charts, right? Like, I'm dark. My daughter, I looked at her medical records, right? Even though she's seen as light-skinned, all the white doctors are like, she's dark, right? Her body is dark, her skin is dark. So there's always this thing, it's relative. I have had experiences where some people would be like, you're not black, because they would question my blackness. But I just think that those are people who are ahistorical, like have no idea of what the trajectory of black people is in the Americas. If you look at the record and you look at what happened, it's like 5% of Africans came to the United States, the rest of us came to the Caribbean and Latin America. There's more black people in Brazil alone than there is in the U.S. And to question our blackness, I think it's like a part of white supremacy, like the conquer and divide thing. I had a boyfriend, Anthony Radcliffe, he was African American. He went to DR with me for a vacation and he was like, damn babe, you all really are blacker than we are. I took him to my grandma's campo and he had never seen, because we still practice drum dancing, African drum dancing, which is, we call it palo. We have festivals in my grandma's village that are supposedly Catholic, but if you look at the Catholic calendar, there's nothing on that date. So these are the African practices that we had to hide and say we're Catholic so we could still practice them. And we have Dominican Wudun, which is a synthesis, of course, of Catholicism and West African religions that is still practiced. So, I don't know, when people say we're not black enough, I think that, again, it's a function of white supremacy and I think that they're not even looking with their eyes to what's obvious. And then in terms of with Latinos, there's like surprise, which I also think is a function of white supremacy and how it operates, like pretending like there are people who don't look like us when there are people who look like us everywhere in Latin America. Colombia, Argentina has black people. Paraguay has, Ecuador has black people. Peru has black people. So it's always that thing of how white supremacy makes you not even believe what you see with your eyes. It's definitely there and I've experienced it, but now that I have the knowledge that I have, I wouldn't have been able to give this interview when I was y'all's age. At least by your all's age, I would have had some kind of connotations. Yeah, but not like now. During Black History Month, my sorority, we have to bring Afro-Latinos into Black History Month because we are a part of the story and nobody's talking about that. And so I think for sure I've always felt that, but now I can express and understand where it's coming from. But I also think like at a certain point, it doesn't matter what people think. I'm at the point where if a black person is questioning my blackness, that's on you. If a Latino or whatever is questioning my ancestry from what is Latin America, that's on them too. But also, why are you in my business? I'm telling you what I am. What advice do I give young Afro-Latinas? I think it's like find people who are like-minded. Find people who are progressive and radical and who have the same mindset. To surround yourself with that positivity, to surround yourself with positive ideas of blackness, positive ideas of Latinidad that reject whiteness, reject Eurocentrism. For example, I had a student, a really nice kid from Colombia, and he was like, no, my mother is visibly, she's Afro-Indigenous. You can tell she's black. She has some Indigenous ancestry. He's like, but my dad is European. His parents came from Europe to Colombia. And he's like, I don't know how to identify. And I was like, well, do you want to identify with the colonizer or do you want to identify with the people who struggle for liberation? That's a political choice at this point for you. I was like, who do you want to identify? So for me, race is about power, so race and ethnicity, but really race is a political question, a political choice. So me identifying as a black Latina is a political choice. And so it's good to surround yourself with other people who have the same vision for what struggle and freedom is. I associate myself with people of the diaspora who believe that we should be working together for liberation, struggling together with our activism. My advice to young Afro-Latinas is that we need to keep on learning about ourselves, learning our history, learning our heroes. You know, like in the DR, there is a woman who is known by the name of Mama Tingo. She was a peasant, a rural Campesina peasant. She fought against the government for land rights, right, because all the elite were trying to steal the land of the peasants. And she was a leader of the people. And she ruled Campesina black women. Who would think that this woman is a leader? But this woman is a leader, and she took on the government. There are so many stories of our heroes, so many stories of the women who did the impossible, the unthinkable, to get us to where we are. So one is, like, focus on our history, on our achievements collectively, because when we think about ourselves as black people, the slave traders, they didn't say, oh, all these people are from the same family. Let me put them all in the same place. No, they scattered us on purpose. I know I have cousins in the U.S. I know I have cousins in Puerto Rico, in Brazil, in Chile, wherever they are, right? So this is a collective project. So one, learn about our heroes, maybe from that country that you are, the Afro diasporic country that you are. Learn about heroes from other places. Surround yourself with people who are doing activism and thinking about these struggles and being active, because that will give you strength and power and feeling in communities. And then, like, all of us have family members that are just colonized and are going to stay colonized. And for those people, like, you can try to share information, but if they're just being, like, brick walls. I don't know, like, one time my auntie called my sister's son, like, she said he was a beautiful mulatto, and my sister was disgusted. She's like, don't call him that. He's not a mule. She's like, he's the product of two human beings, and he's black. So don't put those ideas into his head. You know, so, and my auntie apologized. This is on Facebook. But, you know what I mean? Like, there are some people that you can talk to, and there are some people that are just, they're going to stay brave. Yeah, and they are colonized and whitewashed, and it's, what are you going to do with them? Thanks again.