A Conversation With Katie Testa

During a conversation with Katie Testa, founder and executive director of Metro Detroit Nonviolent Communication, they discuss the impact of the pandemic in Michigan. Katie reflects on the initial alarm and concern for safety, the shift to focusing on basic necessities, the changes in schooling for her three children, and the challenges of adapting to remote work and teaching. They also discuss the overwhelming amount of information and conflicting strategies, as well as the struggle to find a balance between independence and interdependence during the pandemic. Katie highlights the importance of gardening for food security and autonomy, and the need for more sustainable and diverse agricultural practices. Welcome to Phase Shift. I am Bruce Weber. Recently, I had the pleasure of talking with Katie Testa. Katie is founder and executive director of Metro Detroit Nonviolent Communication, where she provides training, mentoring, coaching, public speaking, and consulting services across the Great Lakes region and internationally. Here is our conversation. So my first question has to do with when we think back to March, because it's now August 2020. And in March is when the pandemic really took off. In terms of exponential growth, it really took off. And here in Michigan, there were a number of changes, executive orders by the governor. And I think it was March 23 is when the stay-at-home order occurred. So I'm wondering, when you think back to that, what stands out for you? Yeah, it seems so long ago now, but several things stand out. One, I remember feeling a sense of alarm and concern and wanting to make sure that I was safe and that my family was safe and that my loved ones were safe. And that meant that they were aware of this danger of this virus coming and that they knew how to navigate their environment in a way that made sure they'd stay healthy. And then also, like, my focus came down to very practical life, like basic life necessities, like, do we have water and food and are we comfortable? And those things suddenly became very concerning. I remember people were hoarding toilet paper, and there was just this sense of unease kind of in the air. And the one thing that really changed was school. I have three kids, and they were all attending school, and all of a sudden they weren't attending school. So that was a big shift. Although we had homeschooled a few years before they had been in school for a few years, but we had homeschooled all before that, so we were kind of familiar with that. But it was still a big just daily lifestyle change for them and for me, and I think for all families, really, that seemed to, I remember that, people being, trying to figure out how are we going to take care of our children and make sure that they're learning and then also go to work, but maybe we can't go to work anymore. So that's another thing that changed for me is that I teach communication classes and that involves getting in groups, you know, get in person together. And so that was no longer an option, at least in person. And then I also work part time at a float spa, and they had to close down. So that was concerning. All of a sudden just financial security became a question, you know, what strategies will I be able to utilize to make sure that I have money, but also still stay safe and make sure that I'm helping other people stay safe as well. Were you overwhelmed? There were definitely times I felt overwhelmed, and that seemed to come up the most when how I was looking at things, I was afraid that others weren't aware of what kind of they quote unquote should be doing and that they might endanger themselves or people that I care about. And also that there was just so much information, and it was very often contradictory or changing very quickly and or even politicized. And so that was very challenging to have a sense of clarity and trust about what is actually happening. Like how dangerous is this virus actually? Do I need to be quarantining my packages for a week and sanitizing them or bring a gas mask to the grocery store? Or is this something really where I could take vitamin D and just live a healthy lifestyle and wash my hands and stay home when I'm sick? And it was hard to tell, really. It was hard to tell, and I know when I feel scared about my life, I really can get more rigid and controlling. I want to have more control about how things are going. So I think that came up. It came up just in my interpersonal relationships where it's like, oh, we need to be doing these things to make sure that we're okay. And that would bring up conflict because other people have different ideas about what's going to be the best strategy to stay safe and healthy. And then also just the circumstances change so fast. Having the kids at home, being stuck at home, also having the time of year that it occurred was right when winter was basically just ending. So we had already been indoors like six months in Michigan. By the time Marshall was around, it was really itching to get outside and be social. At least for me, kind of with the cycle of the sun, you know, there's more daylight, I want to be out there more and engaging more. And it was like, well, we're not allowed to do that. And then that was the other thing that came up for me was this issue of autonomy and independence and my relationship to authority and also me observing other people's relationship to authority and some of the challenges around that, really, and trust. I'm going to connect that to trust as well because I think as I was mentioning, it's hard to tell who can you trust for what information. And so you have, like, our governor mandated we did a stay-at-home order. Maybe you have more recollection of the specifics of the timeline of that. But basically, we were told as Michiganders, you can't leave your home. And gatherings are very limited. I mean, everybody across the globe kind of experienced some flavor of this, you know. And different people reacted differently to that. Some people were like, yes, we all have to stay home and really wanted to make sure everybody else was staying home. And other people wanted to fight back against that and be like, you can't restrict me. You can't stop me from going out there and doing business or hanging out with my friends. What right do you have to tell me what I can and cannot do? And I had both of those experiences. I felt, on the one hand, the part that was overwhelmed and scared and very concerned about safety and health and wanting to flatten the curve and make sure that everybody's okay was I had a lot of judgment of how people are out there and they're being kind of selfish and irresponsible and not considering, you know, what if they kill someone's grandma? But then at the same time, almost, I also had this like, I want to go to work. I want to go, you know, I want to go teach people. I want to go hang out with my friends. Like, I want to be free and I feel healthy and vital. And why, you know, why don't the vulnerable people just stay inside and quarantine themselves? And the people that know they're relating to them, be careful. But that's, why is that my problem? I'm not responsible for other people. And so it's had me reflecting kind of like on this spectrum of, there's kind of like anti-dependence on one end and then co-dependence on the other. And in between that, it's like anti-dependence to independence to interdependence to co-dependence. And the anti-dependence and co-dependence are like kind of opposites in a way. Like, I don't want, I don't need anybody else and I don't want to support anybody else. Like, I'm just doing my own thing, kind of anti-dependence. And then the co-dependence, like I can't live without, I'm kind of like this victim and I have to have, you know, you or others to take care of me. And trying to, and that's kind of, I think you can apply that to different layers almost, like your relationship to yourself and your significant other perhaps. But also to kind of like society in a way or like, yeah, like a community really, I guess is what I'm thinking of. Like I would like my actions to consider the other people in my community. I would like their well-being to be included in whatever I'm doing. But I also don't want to sacrifice myself to everybody else, you know, with no consideration for myself. So trying to find where that is during the pandemic and something that seems like so life and death, I found kind of challenging to know like where am I on that line. Does that make sense? Yeah, sounds like a lot of uncertainty. Yeah. And different strategies that are maybe conflicting strategies. Yeah. That are part of that, yeah. So you were doing things to prepare. You mentioned food, things like that. Yeah. And I know you have a garden. Oh, yeah. So I'm curious about your garden. Tell me about that. I forgot all about that. That was a huge thing. And I noticed that as a trend during the pandemic that many people became interested in gardening. And I've been gardening for several years now. I started out kind of with a clay swamp in my backyard. And I've always been interested in, I guess, independence and like self-sustaining systems. I find that very interesting. So permaculture, I find like, wow, that's really neat to think about how human beings can relate with our environment in kind of a symbiotic, mutually beneficial way that becomes more efficient over time and produces more abundance over time with less input and less effort and also less systemic detriment to the environment. When we plant corn, it's in a big monocrop. Or soybeans is a big monoculture. And so I like to just plant all kinds of everything all mixed together and really focus on diversity and a little bit of trust in nature. And that the plants will tell me kind of who's going to live and who's going to die and I'll accept that. But my goal in the gardening has been kind of a blend of meeting my own needs just for food, for like food security and autonomy because that was one thing that really became a sore point was all of a sudden you couldn't just go to the grocery store. And you also couldn't necessarily order groceries delivered. There would be great delays in that. Things weren't available on the grocery store shelves that would normally have been available in the past. And then there were also these chicken processing facilities being shut down and that was affecting the food supply chain. There's a lot of different, I think, like just indications of how this big network of, what's the word, like food. Like our systems, interconnected systems. Yes, and there's like a snag over here and it really affected everything over here. And then it was highlighting to me my dependence on these systems and how they're not necessarily going to always be there and be effective. And I always wanted to grow more food and so this year I think I was really motivated to do that even more because of that. I was like, well, if I can't go to the grocery store, I want to be able to go to my backyard. And also when I spend time gardening, it's kind of like a meditation. I'm in nature and I'm present and I'm in relationship to whatever I'm doing in the moment and it's rewarding to see things thrive. And also surprising and kind of confusing sometimes why something works or why something doesn't. So there's a learning involved. Yeah, but I will say there's a lot of room to grow in terms of actually being sustainable and independent in producing my own food. But I did grow Leaps and Bounds this year and that's more than I've ever done before. I also got rabbits, which I didn't have before. And they've been really fun. And they're partly a strategy for food security if need be, but otherwise they're soft and cuddly and enjoyable companions. Those might be contradictory strategies. If I notice a theme with me, I tend to straddle two things and try to find the middle ground between them, I guess. But yeah, that's been an exciting idea for me. I did have chickens at one point and I decided that rabbits were a better animal for food security for me because I live in a suburban neighborhood and rabbits are very quiet and chickens are not. We touched on how different systems are connected here, like health care or education. These seem to be connected and all seem to be fragile, I would say. Yeah, it's interesting because in certain conditions these systems, like the education system, seems to function relatively well. That's up for debate depending on what metrics we're using, but it's a place for kids to go during the day and parents can go to work. And if we're just looking at that, it works pretty well. There are other adults watching the kids during the day. And there's times that it's predictable and there's a process that people go through. But when conditions change really rapidly, it seems like these institutions over these larger systems struggle to adapt. They're slow. I think partly it's due to the scale of things, but also I would imagine something to do with the decision-making processes involved and the communication strategies involved in the structures of those systems. Kind of like when I think about my garden and our national food system, it's like when I look at each of those systems, like education or financial system or health care system, for me what I try to do is scale it down to my direct realm of control, I guess, and how can I meet the needs that those systems or structures are designed to meet independently of them and therefore meet my needs more quickly and effectively and freely in a time when there's a lot of change, rapid change, and that those systems aren't necessarily showing up for me. So, yeah, that's my sense. It's like these huge systems are very large scale and they do meet some needs for our communities, but when things are happening really quickly, they seem to struggle. And especially I think like when we look at the media, like there's just so little trust already in the media that I remember when the news or different media sources would give information about what was happening, there was always someone who was like, I can't believe anything that they say. They said this yesterday. But it's also difficult to look directly in your immediate environment when you're not allowed to leave your home and figure out what's really going on. So one of the things that happened, and this happened later after things were starting to open up, as you know, George Floyd was killed. All right. Yes. And there were protests and also riots. I'm sure, you know, different sets of people. Lens of those things. Yeah. And some of those riots and protests are still continuing. What I'm seeing is that the pandemic and then also the murder of George Floyd reveals things in a way. And I'm wondering what you think about that. What did this reveal about our society? Well, the first thing that comes to mind, and this sounds almost cliché to me, but it's kind of like the outer world reflects the inner world. So what I see happening out there with the riots and protests and, you know, not only about the George Floyd thing, but just about the lockdown that was also happening. I also think about, like, what's happening internally for people. And I guess it's a challenge for me. This is honestly really a challenge for me to observe. I feel frustrated on multiple levels because I really long for progress towards more inclusivity and more harmonious relationships amongst all different kinds of people. And at the same time, I'm not really sure that the way that people are trying to inspire that change is going to affect the outcome that they would like to have. I'm not sure, but I feel some tension around that. And, yeah, I think I've felt personally very frustrated about police brutality for a long time. For example, like, years ago I was involved in cop block and filming police, and I've had my own personal experiences in the criminal justice system as an adolescent that was very painful. So I've been very aware of this issue of people being treated peacefully and respectfully from authority figures. And I think that that was almost like an archetype, what happened, that George Floyd being murdered was like all everybody's psychic energy and all the frustration that had pent up over years of this frustration, you know, for people systemically and over generations. I think in combination with the stressors of the pandemic and, like, financial stressors, just like relationship stressors, all of the different things, like, almost built up all this pressure. And then it exploded. In one way, it's like I'm excited to see that happen, like this expression of anger and outrage about injustice and really wanting things to change, like, this is it, you know. And then I would see, like, businesses being smashed up and people getting into fistfights and people calling each other different labels and just a lot of anger directed outward at things that I'm not sure really, like, where, how, yeah, I guess it brings up to the question of, like, what is a constructive channel for that energy of all of these people that want things to be different? How can we focus that in a life-enriching, life-serving way that supports us all thriving and doesn't have to put anybody else down so the other people can move forward? And I guess I just think about that a lot because I'm not really certain. It seems, for me personally, it's just been turning inward to myself and reflecting on my own just immediate relationships and choices with where and how I spend my money and planting my garden and raising my children and stuff like that. But there's also this longing to see something bigger be different, you know. And it seems like society is really wanting that. And that's exciting and encouraging and hopeful, but also a little scary. And what I mean by that is just the kind of shadow side of that almost. Like, there's this destructive kind of aspect to it. And, yeah, I guess I wonder about anger and the relationship to, like, constructiveness and destructiveness and how to navigate that while also trying to stay sane in a global pandemic. And maybe you lost your job and who knows what else is going on, but, yeah. Lots of stress on multiple levels. Right. So I know that you've done work with nonviolent communication as well as internal family systems. Uh-huh. And wondering how you see these helping in this situation. Oh, gosh, so much. At least for myself personally. So nonviolent communication, I think how that would help, and without explaining everything about it, just very simply, for me it's been a practice of navigating and experiencing life in a particular way that facilitates more compassion and more connection by changing or being conscious of what I'm focusing on. And so, for example, I might focus on what's right or wrong about a situation or about a person. I might focus on a judgment that I have about a person or a situation. Or alternatively to that, from a nonviolent communication standpoint, I could focus on what my values are that are alive in that particular moment. Like maybe trust or integrity or meaning or safety or contribution. And also feelings are a part of that kind of awareness as well, and the understanding that how we feel arises directly from our values or our needs, either being fulfilled or unfulfilled. So I can look at my experience with the pandemic that way, like, okay, I have these needs or these values, and if we think about like Maslow's hierarchy, we all of a sudden drop down to kind of the base level of the pyramid. It's like food, water, shelter, safety, health, like are we okay? Those kinds of levels and maybe re-strategizing how to meet those needs or values that, because of these external changes and the systemic failures to adapt, that, yeah, we need to re-strategize. And so having an awareness at the needs level helped me to do that, I think, more quickly than I would have if I had been focused on my thoughts about the situation, my judgments or my fears of the situation or thinking about how it should be or shouldn't be. Yeah, and then I'm not sure what else you mentioned. Oh, internal family systems as well. That's the other thing is like noticing kind of the narratives that I have in my own psyche and being able to kind of distinguish them as different parts of myself, not seeing myself as just one unified self. We kind of have that myth almost in our culture, like you're just one person and that's it, and if you have any sort of internal contradiction or something, then maybe it's schizophrenia. But in my experience, I am a multiplicity of perspectives, and within one perspective, I have kind of a meta, all-encompassing self is what we would call that in IFS, and then a variety of kind of sub-selves or sub-personalities, like you could call them parts of the ego, but these parts of us help us relate to each other and navigate the world and get tasks done and also survive sometimes difficult experiences like traumas and being aware of this multiplicity and this whole idea of kind of having this self, this meta-self that can observe that multiplicity and then relate to it. Compassionately, and that's where NVC really helps, is each of these kinds of parts of myself also have needs and values, and they prioritize them differently, and I know it sounds kind of weird to talk about myself in this way. It's kind of unfamiliar, but it really helps me also just kind of understand my own internal contradictions. You know, the part of me that was like, I really want to be free to go out and see the people that I want to go see and go to work and make purchases and just go about my life. That's a part of me that really values autonomy and freedom and independence and is almost a bit rebellious and will push back against authority, and that's a very familiar part of mine. I kind of know, like, yep, that's really important to her, and I can have empathy for that and understanding for that. And then, see, at the same time, I have this other part that's more concerned globally or kind of community-level concern of like, I want everybody to be okay, kind of want to do the right thing is also a part of that, and is more conforming and values security and belonging more than autonomy and independence. And so I can dialogue with both aspects of myself to kind of have understanding about what's alive in me and then navigate my experiences with that information and find strategies that feel more integrated and effective, I guess, at meeting my needs. So, yeah, I guess one example of parts that a lot of people might relate to is, like, one part of you might really want to get into shape, and this part's like, okay, we're going to start this exercise program and we're going to do this three days a week and we're going to eat this way and we're going to eat that way, the next day you're, like, eating a box of cookies and bed-watching Netflix. It's like, well, what happened there? And so I think internal family systems theory is really helpful in taking a look at situations like that where you might be going against yourself, it even seems, and you're even confused, like, I really want this, I don't understand, why don't I just do it? And seeing, like, okay, well, maybe there's kind of a restrictive part and then this kind of indulgent part, and they both have needs and values and thoughts and opinions and experiences, and if you relate to them, you can find a place of integration and where those parts may not be so disconnected and polarized, but where they can come together and work cooperatively to help your system function optimally, because that's really what all these parts are there for, is to help us to thrive. That's what they're trying to do, even if sometimes they have tragic strategies. Looking ahead to what's going to follow this, which I have no idea what's going to follow this, what have you experienced or learned recently which gives you hope? Oh, that's a good question. I can think of lots of things that I've learned. You know, things that I've learned about growing my own food and things I learned about myself and how I navigate something very stressful like a pandemic and how that affects my relationships and the resilience or lack thereof in said relationships. There's been a lot of learning to celebrate, but one thing that really stands out for me, and I don't think I really even mentioned this, is how valuable having a community is and a network of people that you have a sense of shared reality and trust and quality connection and communication with. I even want to say it would be even more ideal if that could be as local as possible, considering that sometimes we can't travel, although that's the other celebration of this. How cool is it that we had Zoom through everything so we could still connect? But I think that's something that I learned is that my friendship, like my friendship with you, I got a lot of peace of mind from connecting with you. I had a sense of shared reality and that we could talk about kind of what was happening in a comprehensible way that provided some sense of stability and clarity and companionship that I appreciate. And I think if I didn't have any points of contact like that, it would have been tremendously much more challenging. And before the pandemic, I was traveling a lot more for work. I was going to New York City very often, and I had a big community of people in other places aside from where I live, and discovered I would like to nurture and grow those things more at home. Just like my garden, it's like also I want to have those connections with people. And that does give me hope in just having people that kind of see what I see, not necessarily the same exact way, but yeah, kind of like I'm not alone in that. Something like that's comforting. Is there anything else you'd like to share? Well, I was just thinking it is pretty encouraging to see people get so pissed off at the cops finally. Like that took a long time. I feel like it's happened before. I know there's other decades before there's been kind of bubbles of this, but I felt so frustrated about it for so long, and like maybe I was the only one almost. So it's exciting and encouraging and hopeful to see that people are pushing for changes. Strategy is debatable, but yes, I'm encouraged to see that. Yeah, it seems to me that there was a lot of frustration, resentment, but maybe it was kept inside or not expressed, not shared. So it's hard to know then if other people share that. Yeah. Yeah, all of a sudden it seems like I could say some things to people and it would be normal now where maybe five or ten years ago it would have seemed quite radical to suggest, well, you might be safer if you record your interactions with the police. When people would say, well, you're just paranoid, or you have authority issues. Well, yes, those are there. And at the same time, that might be wise to do, to have some accountability. And so I'm really loving to see that as an issue, like how can we create more accountability, more transparency, and more safety and peace for people. Because ultimately that's what I think most of us want. I hope so. Yeah. So if people want to contact you, is there a way they can do that? Yeah. You can go to my website. It's mdnvc.org. You can also look me up. If you just Google Katie Testa, NVC, you'll probably find me somewhere. Yeah, email me, whatever you like. Cool. I'll include that in the show notes. Cool. Thanks, Katie. Thanks, Bruce. You've been listening to Phase Shift, a podcast about the unusual time we live in and the possibilities for our future. For more information about Katie Testa and the work she is doing, please visit her website, mdnvc.org. The link is in the show notes. Until next time, be well. Transcription by CastingWords