DOD Remix 1

Jean Neese, the speaker's mother, is being interviewed about her birth and experiences of being accused of something she didn't do. She recalls that she was born in 1943, a difficult time in the world, and her birth was a quick and relatively easy one. Her grandparents were excited because she was their first biological grandchild. Jean also shares a childhood experience of being accused of cheating in school, which she found unjust and humiliating. She later discusses two near-death experiences she had while driving, emphasizing the importance of being aware of potential dangers on the road. When asked about trust, Jean expresses a realistic view of trust and its limitations, stating that no one can fully meet the high standards of trust if defined in the purest sense. Good morning. Okay, this is Bronwyn Neese from the Young People's Archive on February 4, 2024 in Franconia, New Hampshire with Jean Neese. I know Jean because she is my mom. Still? Thank God. Mom, Jean, can you say your full name? This is Jean Elizabeth Neese. All right, thank you so much. All right, so we're going to take a different tack from last time, as I said. We're going to go with some different questions around what we have been discussing in our class, in our classes, for you to know. It's called Discourses of Difference, and it's about talking and listening, really, to other people and really embracing other people's experiences in their lives and coming up with different perspectives. So what you said last time was amazing, but I'll look for some more interesting stuff here. The first question is kind of weird. No pressure. No pressure. Amazing. I want amazing. The first question is kind of weird, and I think it's not literal, but more what you were told. Do you remember, here's the question, do you remember the circumstances of your birth? Other than it was a tight squeeze. Personally, do I remember the circumstances of my birth, or are you saying do I know the circumstances of my birth? I think it means do you know. I think it means do you know. Oh, I have been told circumstances of my birth, if that's what you're asking. Yes. I have some facts that my mother told me. Okay. Do you, is that what you want to, you want to know what facts I was told? Yeah. Okay. First of all, I was a huge baby. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. I was born, as you know, in 1943, so it was a tough time in the world, and I'm sure that made my mother very anxious, or was anxious anyway. The birth apparently was her easiest one, which is interesting, because, you know, big babies sometimes are. And I only, I can remember the doctor's name, who delivered me, but it was in a hospital, and it was, the only thing that stood out in my mind that my mother always talked about was that I came very fast, and the doctor was, you know, and they were telling her, can I say this as a person? Yeah. You know, they didn't want the baby to come, so they said, squeeze your legs together, you know, wait for the doctor kind of thing, which is, obviously this was 80 years ago, so that's. Have you ever come close to that? What a ridiculous thing to say to me, but it's always, like, that's really going to work. Anyway, so that was funny, and I do, of course, remember my grandparents were so excited, and my grandfather sent a telegram to my mother, which I still have a copy of. Why were your grandparents excited? Well, I was the first biological, let's say, grandchild. My older brother was my mother's first child from another marriage, so, and they adored him too, and then I was a girl, that was a big process in their minds. I don't know why I didn't remember you being 10 pounds. I'm sure you did, but I don't remember. You're such a tiny person. Well, it's funny, isn't it? You know, I mean, same as my other daughters, who is now a small person in terms of height, and then the second time I was, we went out to play football in Syracuse. It's all about the head. It's all about the head. That's what it's all about. And my stomach burst. I guess so, yeah. Yay, okay then, moving on. This is a funny question. Have you ever been accused of something that you did not do? Almost eight pounds of blood. Oh, my God. Yes. Yes, I was as a child. Is this, I hope, yes, child. And I almost died there. Yes. I was in school. I was in fourth grade. And we had the only utility in the school. Yeah, yeah. And we had our desk. We had the, like, particular flat desk. It's not the old fashioned kind. And we had them facing each other, so you were in a group of, like, six. And so there's someone right across from you, you know, you're facing. And we were taking a test. It was in fourth grade. I think fourth or fifth. And I had a dress on. And my skirt was bunched up, you know, under me. So I stood up a little bit to smooth my skirt down in the back. And my teacher saw it and thought I was looking at the test paper of the person across from me. She yelled at me and made me go out into the hallway and stand there. And I almost ran, although it was too far, you know. I was humiliated and angry. So there you go. It wasn't a big deal, but it was unjust. My goodness, times have changed. Oh, yes, times have changed. Exactly. Oh, no, that's right. Anyway, that's obviously what this whole changing experience was. It was, I remember it. It's funny. I was humiliated. I was humiliated. Why were you humiliated? Because you had to go in the hallway? Well, I was embarrassed. You know, first of all, I didn't do it. You know, it wasn't cheating. That made me angry that I would be accused of cheating. And technically, I would have been pretty stupid. That would have been pretty bleak, you know, to stand up and look at the person's paper. Yeah. This isn't an interview about me, but I could tell you a story. Yeah, sure. But as an adult, I mean, you know, those situations come to me as an adult. A little before lunchtime, we had a letter open. The person that put everybody in the room. No, that didn't happen. I don't remember. We were doing the room, and we had separate rooms. All right, here's one. Have you ever come close to death? Handcuffing them one at a time. Literally close to death, or felt like I was close to death? I think it could be open to interpretation. Or the jail. I mean, I certainly have had a couple of traffic situations where, you know, death passed before my eyes. But I have never been literally close to death, dying myself. Did I know of? I've never been that sick. But a couple of traffic things. I did not know what I was doing. I was young, and he brought them in and handcuffed them because that's what they usually do. Going down a highway. At a normal highway speed, where I was in one of these. You know, this was not mid-year, but the temperature was changing, as it can do here. And it dropped like 20, 30 degrees. And so I went from a road that was a little wet to icy, suddenly. The whole road was icy. And I just went around a few times in the middle of the highway. And, you know, that was a very, very frightening experience. Especially because I looked back, and there was a civil behind me. I had come down a hill, and there was an 18-wheeler coming down the hill. Yeah. And thank God I got the car right and started and got off the exit, which was only a short distance away. And off the exit were parked about five 18-wheelers, who apparently also hit the same thing. And they were all the guys who were out there talking. And everybody was pretty scared. You said the attack took place before lunch. When did you wake up? I could not. There was a little cliff drop on the other side. That was a near death. I don't know if I would have died if I had gone off that road. But it was very scary. I remember the ambulance leaving the helicopter and transferring from the helicopter to the ambulance. Where was that? But I couldn't see. Route 290 going into Worcester. So I couldn't really see. But I remember hearing a drill from the helicopter. Oh, right. And I remember hearing sirens going from the ambulance. And my partner, David Hearn, he came back with me. And they took him and put him in a meeting. No, for me. Well, mine was like that. Okay. I was driving to a meeting. And again, I was gone. I was going to a meeting in Worcester. And I forget the route number. No, it was 95. It was a big highway. Car in front of me. Car in front of me swerved. And I didn't know what the heck was going on. Of course, this all happens in many, many seconds, not even seconds. So I went. When he moved out of the way, I saw there was a big pipe in the middle of the road, a long pipe spanning like two lanes, a thin pipe that must have fallen off a truck or something. And I had to swerve so that if I had hit that pipe, I don't know what would have happened to me. I would have. And the horrible hearing part was, I instinctively, I turned quickly and went over to the right lane. But I didn't look because I didn't have time to look to see if anybody was coming down. But that lane behind me. And, again, this all happens. I've seen a friend of mine, and I was with him. And I just, my instinct in my brain was, oh, my God, I didn't look. There's a car coming there, and I'm almost waiting for the car to pass. It was all a camera. It was clear. There was no car coming down. It was very scary. And you just think, those are moments where you just think, both of those situations where you think, yeah, if, you know, if a car had been coming, if that 18-wheeler had been closer, I would have been killed. Those are people's protections. They're there for the police protection, too. You know, people make accusations all the time that you touched me inappropriately or he slammed my face on the desk. Okay. Or he hit me in the face while I was on the ground. Here's a totally different question. You know, I mean, things were a little different. Who do you trust? He hit me over the head with a baton. Oh, boy. And, you know, I tried to be nice. You know, I think a lot about that, and that is based on, and it is really based on my philosophy. I mean, I have a philosophy that it all depends on your personal definition of trust. Because, and if you believe trust in the purest sense, meaning what? You can trust someone with your life, that person. You can trust someone never to hurt you. You can trust someone to always be what you want them to be. If you define it like that, to me, then there's no one you trust because no one could live up to those standards. So I know that this may sound a little crazy, but it's not that I'm not a trustful person, but I'm very realistic about the limitations of how I interpret trust. Because if you interpret trust, I believe, like I said, in the purest sense of the word, it's not going to happen. You can't trust everybody at that level, you know. And I think of it a lot in a business situation because I find that's particularly true in business. And it's not that people are not trustworthy, but they're not going to, other people are not going to, they're not going to maintain those standards. It's probably impossible for a human to maintain the kind of standards of what I define as pure trust. Now, who do I trust trust? Like, who would I trust with my life? Who would I trust, you know, then I could name people, specific people. But again, it depends on that definition. I don't know that, I've never had anybody tell me they define trust in that same way. And in the professional situation, I've had lots of experiences where I am mentoring someone or just helping someone to look at things in a realistic way, and I talk about the definition of trust. Is there anything else you want to share? I don't know if that really answers your question, or if you're looking for something more specific. Well, no, I just, do you trust categories of people? Not more than others. I mean, obviously someone who has betrayed me, I would not trust them. And I also think, let me, okay, it can be so many different categories. Say, trust in an intimate relationship, like your marriage, not to be too personal, but if trust is betrayed in a relationship, like say a marriage, it has to be rebuilt. And it's a, you have to decide at some point if you're going to trust the other person, if that trust has been broken. And I think that, so talking about category of people, certainly intimate relationships are important, personal relationships, like a marriage, you know, that's when trust is monumental and so important, and if it's broken, it's hard to rebuild. Sometimes it can be rebuilt, but it's hard to be rebuilt. But you have to, at some point you have to decide, saying, okay, I'm going to make this move, I'm going to trust this person again, and see what happens. Again, I don't know if that answers your question exactly, but, so categories of people, are you trying to get at more broadly, like do I distrust people of another authenticity, or do I distrust someone who's, because they're in a certain category, like they're Asian, or they're black, or they're white, or they're whatever. I don't know if that's part of this question, because that's a whole different thing. Yeah, well the question came up in class, the question came up in class based on a film we were watching, which was, well I think it was about friendships, but I think it's also, this class is about, yeah, I think maybe trusting police was a topic that we were on, but trusting friends, I think. I think you've done a good job answering it. It so depends on circumstances, I mean, and I do believe, just to comment, trust is extremely important, but again, I do believe it has to be, your expectations of trust have to be in line, because, you know, humans are humans, and if you go into, if your definition of trust is so, the standards are so high, you're never going to trust anybody, because you're never going to be able to trust anybody. So it's a very interesting topic that we could probably talk about forever. Do you want to talk about it more? No, I'm fine, I'm fine if you're fine. Okay, here's another one that you may like to answer. Who or what do you fear? Who or what do you fear? Fear. Fear physically, or fear emotionally, or however I want to... However you want to... Well, physically I don't, oh, okay. When a bear comes up on my deck and won't go away, I do have a fear of that bear. That's a physical fear. But in terms of, I guess you could say, I don't like being hurt. I fear being hurt by people that I love, and I guess you could say that's a fear. I... Well, and this is getting kind of personal. I fear depression, which I don't... I manage pretty well, but I do fear getting... Especially living alone and now being retired, where you're spending a lot of time alone. I have to watch and be careful that I don't get depressed. So I guess I could say I fear that. I fear getting... Again, because I'm 80 years old, you have to be realistic about death. I don't fear death, but I sure could pick the things I'd like to die from and the things I wouldn't like to die from. So I fear... Okay, here we go. Loss of control at end of life, where you're having... Yes, I would fear that. Is that enough fear? Yeah, that's not what I thought you'd say. What did you think I'd say? Not about me. Well, it might be the next question. What do you fear losing in love? In love? Oh, my children. That's what I thought you'd say, yeah. Yeah, the real love of my children. I mean, the respect. Oh, okay. Of my children, yes. I thought you meant physically losing a child. Oh, physically losing a child is just beyond... I can't even... I can't even hardly go there. I can't... No. Oh, no, you're... Okay, that's true. That fear, I keep... I have to keep very much where it needs to be. I don't deny it, but I keep it locked up in one of my little boxes, you know, because that fear is the most horrible fear. I don't think I'd make it through that. So, you're right. I'm getting queued up. I'm getting queued up. Oh, no. No, that's such a big fear. I can't even tell you. I didn't even think about it. It's so big that I had to keep that... I have to keep that... You know, I can't think about that every day. It's not... I'm not a denial person, and I try to be pretty realistic, but it terrifies me. It could terrify me. Thank you for going there. The rest seems very superficial compared to that. Yes. Do you want to go there? No. Oh, I can if you need me to talk more about it. Well... I mean, you have experienced... I mean, I wanted you to talk about loss, but you've experienced the greatest losses that a human can suffer, you know, in relatively... Just for our audience, my father in 2000, and then my sister in 2005, so that's not very far apart, and that you have been... I asked you in your last interview, did you think you were brave, and this was in the context of being a trailblazer in women's rights, but this is where I think you're the most brave, and the circumstances around my sister's death we could go into, which were terrible, and the subsequent fight for grandchildren and all that stuff, I think you are the bravest person I've ever met. Why are you that? Oh, no, I'm humbled. It was a laugh, laugh, it was a... Thank you. Embarrassment. A laugh of embarrassment. Really? Why are you embarrassed? Oh, just because you said something nice. Well, not that you said anything nice, I mean, you know... I say nice things all the time. Was there a question in that? I don't remember the beginning now. Well, if you're willing to answer, I mean, did you think you were brave? I asked you that in terms of the other context, but do you think you were brave here? Yes. You do? I do. In what regard? Which part of it? I mean, there's so much to it. There's so much to it. Just trying to sum it up. Of course, my husband's loss, as you know, your father's loss, was sudden, unexpected, unplanned for, died of something, justice, as you know, but for the group, which comes on very fast, and anyway, you don't expect that in a healthy 58-year-old man. I'm losing my train of thought here. I'm probably blocking it psychologically. Bravery. You were on bravery. Were you brave? You said, yes, I was brave. Yes. Well, okay, so when he died, and that was relevant to the suddenness, in a sudden death like that, that you're so unprepared for, an untimely death, the recovery, especially when it's your spouse that you happen to love, the recovery, at first, you're not making any conscious choices. You're just trying to get through the day, you know, and that period lasts pretty long. I think it takes probably a couple of years in a circumstance like that for you to be, you know, to have your new normal in place, but any bravery in that period that I would say was, I was, a couple of things that I had to make a decision to do, and I would say I think I was brave to do that, was, of course, I faced the death. I went to my therapist, you know, a couple of times to help me through it, went to a grief group a couple of times just to, you know, but made myself, what I did was I accepted the grief, and I accepted it in a way that, when I hit the moments where you have what I would always call my nervous breakdowns, but they were just where you start crying all the time and crying and sobbing, is to let myself do that, let myself cry, let myself sob, let myself feel the pain, and I think that takes almost a decision to do, to really open yourself to the pain, and the other thing that I did along that time was to, when I met someone or talked to someone, I talked to them, like, say you meet someone on an airplane, you know, or whatever, someone you don't know well, and being forthcoming about my circumstances, someone said, you know, asking the appropriate question, I would say, yes, my husband just died, he died suddenly, blah, blah, blah, and then they would open up and talk about whatever their tragedy had been, and it's like everybody has something. It was amazing, and that would give me strength, too, and I think it took bravery to do that, but in the end, it was, I mean, it really, really was significant in helping me get through that period, and I think, again, it did take bravery, because I know people that just couldn't do that and just would, you know, would fold up, so, and, you know, and it would be easy to do that, but, so, yeah, I do feel that I was brave in that circumstance, and then the challenge was, the real challenge then, after working through that for those couple of years I talked about, and, you know, you start to feel almost, again, the new normal, because there's no going back, there's no normally, you're normally, before that, it's gone, but then at that two-year juncture is when, as you know, my daughter was diagnosed with, 39 years old, was diagnosed, 38 years old, with stage four breast cancer, so that was a huge blow, and then we went through that, as you said, horrible circumstances of her death, leading up to her death, so, and that took an amazing amount of bravery, you know, so. Do you want to talk about that or no? I can. Yeah, I mean. Do you have a specific question about that? Well, there's so many layers of bravery. There are. It's very upsetting, but, you know, yes, I think there's very, well, there's bravery in that you want to support the person, I think there's, and this isn't my interview, but there's bravery in terms of, I think what I saw of you, bravery in terms of your caring for her, bravery in the way you dealt with the unique circumstances, which was a freaky, her husband was freaking out, and then, of course, when he cut us off from the children, who we were very close to, you know, your bravery in pursuing that against a very. And that was significant. Strong adversary. I'm sorry, go ahead. I just think that your son-in-law was a very strong adversary. He's a very strong person. I don't know if he's strong, actually, but he was a very strong personality, I'll say. Exactly. I don't think he was strong, actually, or brave. Well, that was a hard. Yeah, there were two very big decisions in that circumstance. One was taking legal action to be able to visit the boys, and then dropping that, because after we got into it, and I realized that this was not going to go well, no matter what the outcome was or what the decision was by the court, which they would have decided in my favor, I know, but that was not going to, in the long run, be the best thing for him or the boys. And that took a lot of, that was a very hard decision, and not everybody, I think, agreed I should have gone that jurisdiction, but I did, and I think, in the end, that saved us, and that's why I have a relationship with them today. So it was a good decision. It was a horrible, horrible, horrible decision to make. Yeah, I'm actually tearing up thinking about how the boys came to your 80th birthday party, and that never would have happened if you hadn't been sober. Never. Never would have happened. I don't even know if I would know them. You know, if, because even, and not to be technical, but even if the court had ruled in my favor that I had to have visitation rights, he wouldn't have, he wouldn't have to comply with that, you know, and I would not have had a relationship with them. So, you know, so I thank God every day that that was the case, because now they are, you know, they are an important part of my six grandchildren. They know the grandchildren, each other. They know the cousins, rather, and, you know, they have relationship with the family, which is what I, they needed to know their mother's family, and now they're a part of that family. And, you know, and that's important. So important. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, not good. Not, it was, yeah. The only thing I haven't had a loss of, because I've had all the normal losses that humans all go through, grandparents, close grandparents, parents, in and out. I've had a spouse, a child, but I've never lost a sibling, and I do worry about that. I do. How? I have a fear of that, because I'm, my siblings, we have a wonderful relationship right now, albeit we don't live close together, and we're all getting old. So somebody's going to go, and it's just sad, you know. Oh, my goodness. All right. That was a lot. That is a lot. Yeah. Well, I think you're amazing. What's that? I said, I think you're amazing. Oh, thank you. Thank you. That makes my life. It makes my day. No, it doesn't make my day. It makes my whole life. Yay. You feel that way. All right. I'm going to end there. Hold on a minute. Let me stop. Thank you so much, Mom. You're so cheerful.