Upholding Inclusivity: Recognizing Intersex Identities in Uganda's Population Census part 2

The conversation explores the inclusion of intersex persons in the LGBTQIA acronym. The speaker argues that intersex should be included as they are a minority group facing discrimination. Including them in the acronym does not hinder progress, but rather highlights the holistic nature of the minority group. The speaker also discusses the moral standpoint of the acronym and the importance of having conversations to resolve the inclusion of intersex persons. The speaker highlights the issue of exclusion and suggests that intersex persons should be recognized and planned for by the government. Advocacy spaces should also prioritize intersectionality and ensure representation and access to services for intersex individuals. This episode was too badass to have in one sitting, so here's a continuation of that conversation that I hope answers any questions that the first part left lingering in your mind. Let us break the silence. Kwa hivyo kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hiv hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hivyo, kwa hiv QIA means, or what is LGBTQIA? The first three letters, LGBT, LGB, Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual, those are sexual orientations, right? The first three, so those are sexual orientations, and then CQIA, those are gender identities So what people really don't get is differentiating the two. Yes, it is one term, it is one acronym, but once you are able to define what is sexual orientation and what is gender identity, those are two different issues. I don't want to go deeper into that. So the question is, is including intersex persons in the LBQTI, the whole acronym, an issue? I don't think it is an issue. Because most people tend to differ with this, but for me it does not hinder anything, because for them it is an issue of gender, it is not an issue of orientation. So when we are having a discussion of gender identity, that is where intersex persons fall. So for us including them in the LBQTI, most people say that we are hindering the service delivery for them. But the question would be, would have intersex persons or programs be made if we had not discussed the issue of LBQTI as a whole? Like if we had not included the intersex persons in the minority category. LBQTI people, they are a minority. Intersex persons are a minority. So if we had not included them in this particular cluster, would the programs they have, would the progress they have made been possible? I tend to prefer no. So including them in the LBQTI, for me it is not, it is an issue, because we are looking at a holistic minority group that is segregated, that is discriminated, that is violated, for just being them. You see, and if a minority group now tends to disintegrate itself from another minority group, then that raises questions. Yes, I think I would put it at that. What do you think? Honestly and frankly. I hope you can lie to us. I really hope I can, but if I am trying to be honest, because you know, ever since I turned 30, I am trying to be a better person and tell the truth. I have never really thought about it that way. I personally, looking at an LGBT person, I have never thought of the inclusion of the I in the acronym. I really haven't. But I think the dilemma always is LGBT people are seen from a moral standpoint. And by virtue, adding the I there, they are literally fucked from the jump. So I think the issue again is the entire acronym is a moral stance, takes a moral stance. It is only assumable that intersex people also fall under the same thing. I have never thought of the differences of the sexual minority acronym of LGBT, including I people, and I think that is a conversation I would really like to get into and have. Because that's how deep it is. Like, I haven't even thought about it and I am a minority. But this is how deeply seated the idea of exclusion is for LGBTQI people. And I think conversations would be a great way to like resolve the ideas of I being added to the entire acronym. Oh, wow. Sips Sprite. I think it will probably be cancelled after this, but I think that... What do you think, Samantha? Oh, wow. And then if we say, but children are having surgeries and ABCD, and so there's a way you can appeal to somebody if you look at that. You know, like how Kirsten was saying how children, these children, that is their motto, you know. So for me, it's very touch and go. It's very, it's both, it could work. I feel like it's important. Inclusion, but now minority in Uganda is seen differently. This year, the census, you'll believe me, UBOS has been sending, and that's the Uganda Bureau of Statistics, has been sending out UBOS in partnership with the whole document. I'll try to put it in the description of the podcast when people see it. To include born-again in the census. In terms of what, a revision? Yeah. As an improvement. As an improvement to the forms. So before, born-agains were not there. But now they're there. Actually, they even told us the number. If you want to tick born-again, it's number 15. Born-again stroke molocore. And I'm thinking, this is the junior thing that you have added to this census form. You have ignored the whole, so I don't understand, how does not being counted, ideally, how would it affect the life of a born-again Christian? Like, in the extent that it's going to affect the life of an intersex person. In fact, I have half a brain to say, cancel the born-again pattern, put intersex. Then may I tick there. And then whoever is reading the form, cease and desist. Because this affects lives. You know what I'm saying? And so, when you say we're all minorities, and I think about the minority that the census considers, all people consider themselves minorities. I mean, Jews consider themselves minorities, right? I'm very controversial. I'm going to do Palestine. But they consider themselves minorities, no? And yet, here we all are. So the word minority is a bit... What are you saying? What do you think? I think they should just... Yeah. I think they should just... I don't know. I think for God and my country, it's in their name. What are you saying? What do you think? I think they should just... Yeah. I think they should just... You are a religious state. Uganda is a... apparently Uganda is a Christian nation. I'm going for God and my country. Yeah. I think... I think the LGBTQ movement... We don't conform to any... we are not a religious state constitution. I think the LGBTQ movement should decide to leave intersex people out of it, especially in this country. Because things will be better for them. Because the truth is, LGBTQ people are viewed as abnormal, immoral, and Christian against their kids. But intersex people exist. Scientifically, they exist. You can't say they decided. They didn't. Their body did a thing. There are tests we can do to prove it. So for me, I believe it's best they just go as them, them as a thing. Because that is the only way we are going to move forward for intersex people. That's true. We're about to come to the close. I just want us to have a few conversations around what do we want to be done. It might be late for Friday. But moving forward, especially when Kelvin said something around CSOs organized. I really want to hear about that process. How they said the CSOs organized and then from that the census happened. So what do we do now moving forward? How do we as gender diverse people... How do we as gender diverse people... What are the solutions? Are we going to whine about it on different podcasts? What do we do? Thank you. I'll start with advocacy spaces, right? Advocacy spaces right now, especially those doing work around rights. Rights work with as much scrutiny they are under. The element of intersectionality is huge and we get what it means. If we are being intersectional, the call to action is intersex people do exist. And they deserve representation and access to service provision. Of course, tomorrow is very late. But in the future, I will tell our government, our best and brightest, that I'll tell them the same exact thing they keep telling young people. Stop being lazy. If intersex people exist, unlike Dr. Nahiranda mentioned earlier, it's not just a rare occurrence. Every week, you're dealing with an intersex person. That's how deep it is. Stop being intellectually lazy and acknowledge that they exist so that they can properly be planned for. If an LGBT person struggles with my existence and knowing that, okay, I know there might be a little bit of passive aggression because there's a moral stance to it. But like Malik said, an intersex person, their body just did a thing. The emotional drain and the emotional toll should be heavy. If truly governments care about people as they claim to, the only bottom line is they deserve acknowledgement, they deserve to be planned for, and there's no way around it. Again, stop being lazy. Kelvin, for you it's a bit deeper than just what should be done. I want to hear about the process of what was done in 2019, what continues to be done so we could pick a leaf, or even the rest of Africa, because I don't know how many countries have an Intersex Act. I think it is for TSOs, civil societies, to stop expecting more from the government. We are already acknowledging that the government is lazy. So how do we make the government not lazy? It's by drafting such bills. Because the intersex bill is TSO drafted. It's a TSO drafted bill by an intersex person. We actually have an intersex person running for office. Was it during our last year? Was it 2022? We had an intersex person running for office. So those are the people who drafted the intersex bill. Did they win? Unfortunately, no. Okay. Unfortunately, no. But at least they made a step. History was made. Going out campaigning as an intersex person, history was made. Also, I would think for us TSOs, maybe TSOs in Uganda, it's about time we joined hands. It's about time we saw politics. We have organizational politics. Joining hands and probably what you are seeing, the government acknowledging that intersex persons are here. You can work with human rights organizations. And then maybe you petition either through court, you petition either through parliament, for such bills to be discussed in parliament. It is a process. But it begins down here. The advocacy spaces that we go in, we incognizant of intersex persons in our meetings. We even invite them in our meetings. We even give them space in our meetings. So those are the small, very small issues that give meaning or give sense at the end of the day. Another issue is recognizing that through the government or through courts, maybe you could petition through courts for people, particularly these censors. I think somebody should have already gone to court and asked the government, why are we not including intersex persons in the census? Why are we not, or is intersex persons not being recognized by the government? I think as far as sexual and gender things go, we have our hands full with fighting this anti-homosexuality act. We've been, as you know, we've really been going through it as a nation or as a gender diverse community. I do not think any of us really wants to go to court. But I hear you. In a perfect world, we should be able to context one law while also still having the rights as a Ugandan to repeat and complain against bad services. He said you're coming to observe us. No, he said it's a public holiday and he'll watch out for the news and shit. Be careful. They might cut our internet. We have the most radical leaders. Wakes up one morning, you don't deserve internet. We still don't have Facebook in Uganda. We still use VPN. How many years later? Dr. Nahiranda, what do you think should be done? For me, yes, that's the part I really want to talk about. I feel like, I only have an undergraduate degree and going through my undergraduate training, I don't remember them teaching us about intersex people. I remember XY. I don't remember emphasis. When we were doing embryology, I don't remember emphasis on letting people know that there's a group of people that may not be XY with a particular or XX with a particular genitalia. I feel like we also need to do something about that in the schools because the government knows this exists. They just don't want to officially recognize it. I feel like the government is only made of politicians that only stopped in S4. They are scientists. I understand there are people that actually went to school. Thank you for the whole government. But think about it. There are scientists, like actual doctors in big positions who know these things. They all read Langman like me. They know these things. I feel like incorporating it into the medical school, even at the undergraduate level and especially at the undergraduate level because after undergrad, these are general practitioners and it breaks my heart when I talk to my colleagues the amount of ignorance they have about intersex people. Like, you know, utter ignorance. But this is a person who did medicine and so what should that local man do? Who is the local man? Who is the local man? Why are you pointing at me? All I'm saying is I told you you'd be still short till this spring but you didn't allow. There are people without who are so unaware. They don't know what to do. They don't know what to do when they are faced with such a person. Just to interrupt you a little bit. Within medicine, intersex people are dealt with. How does a whole university in Uganda conveniently skip that as information? Like I said, in Uganda, our policy, if we don't talk about something, it goes away. That's the rule. Straight up from up there. It's just like knowing that this is all I have to do in law school and then you realize because of the moral controversy around something we are choosing not to do this. It is so intellectually lazy. For me, I'll just speak as me but also as a journalist. Who else did you want to speak as? As a journalist, I feel like let's cover the stories. They are painful. But we keep on. We look for the things where we can survive. To find ways to cover this news and to report these stories, people who do investigative journalism documentaries about corruption, about obesity, somebody should put money and do investigate. We've had a documentary. The documentary was done by CIPID. CIPID is supposed to be an organization in Uganda. It was very interesting. I went at home. It was very exciting. I was so excited about the documentary. To have more of these coming up, not just independent projects but to have somebody go. Dr. Nahiranda is one person and we don't know how many times he goes to the hospital but if he has this much interest. If we interviewed 10 doctors, if we went to different health centers that he hasn't been to and have this conversation on a broader scale. He's a person who the African Institute of Investigative Journalism. That's Solomon Serranja. Solomon. We call him AIIJ. We call him investigative journalist. But also to artists. From this experience, I hope you're inspired. Let's write the poems. Let's make the paintings. Let's do the things because we also realize that everybody is speaking and once the attitude is changed in the ordinary person, in the ordinary African, if we understand the thing, we make more informed decisions. If you go to hospital and the surgeon is insisting on changing your child, you have interfaced with work, you have interfaced with art that says no. If a child has malaria, ignore anything else that has not really like mind your business, please, thank you in like 30 seconds. Thank you for having me. I hope it will be a better day for interfaced persons in Uganda soon. Maybe after the census. It is probably a wake-up call for PSOs in Uganda. Hopefully, it could also be an entry point for advocacy for LGBTI persons. Traditionally, PSOs have used HIV and AIDS and I believe that using a disease as an entry advocacy point is very weird and lame. But I feel that because we are still advocating for persons who scientifically are there, who doctors and surgeons have identified that they are there. I feel that should be a very good entry point for all of us. Again, all the best in the census and my question to you in Uganda is, what will that intersex person identify as during this particular census? Thank you, Kelvin. So, part in short. Did you already give your part in short? I might have, but then Samantha asked. Oh, babe. Intersex persons should only be looked at from a medical standpoint because that's where all of the explanations lie. It's not a no moral conversation. It's not a moral dialogue. Intersex people need a medical approach to dealing with them because that's the only explanation that exists. Anything outside of that is you, your morals, emotions, and your immaturity clouding your judgment. It's so weird how we didn't mention witchcraft because Africa, we really are very quick to say someone bleached my child. Oh, yeah. I've actually, yes, I've had that as an explanation for a few intersex people, especially like in communities when you hear the story. You always hear, oh, this one had a problem with that one. That's why they had an intersex child. Like, guy. Relax. Relax, relax, relax. So, yeah, but thank you for having me. Okay, I hope we've done better in 10 years because it will be very, very disappointing if we have to roll back to this very conversation in 10 years. That will be the real test of our progress. Even in 10 years, we'll be having the transgender conversation on social media. Like, in 10 years, let's just be a country that's ready for gender diversity and just do the thing. Not in 2014, but my guy here, we are fighting for life. No, me, you know what the red flag was? They asked us, do you own a boat? They came to my house, concrete everywhere, do you own a boat? Those are the questions. And I said, do you think I own a boat? But with Uganda, you just have to woosa for a minute and carry on. My parting remarks are doctors and the medical field needs to do better. As individual doctors, like any doctor that gets to hear this, you need to go home and educate yourself about intersex people. And I'm also reaching out to like activists, you people, what you do, reach out to those hospitals, reach out to those health bodies, tell them to do continuous medical educations for the doctors about intersex people, just to like raise awareness, to like just come up with workshops where they're telling the health workers about these people and to like educate them about intersex people and to like encourage them to like educate them about these people. Like even if we may not change the curriculum in medical school, but we can do it for the people already in the field. Just, you know, so they get to know that, hey, this will actually exist. And so as we do this, they educate themselves more. Yeah. Bye. Bye. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Breaking the Silence. We hope today's conversation has inspired you to take action and advocate for the rights and safety of sexual and gender diverse individuals across Africa. Remember, change begins with awareness, empathy, and collective effort. Be sure to subscribe and tune in for our next episode where we'll continue to explore the many facets of SGBV and work together towards a future free from violence and discrimination. Until then, stay informed, stay engaged, and keep breaking the silence.