In this thought-provoking podcast episode, we delve into the important topic of recognizing intersex identities in current population censuses. Intersex individuals are often marginalized and overlooked in society, and their identities are not adequately represented in official data collection efforts. This episode aims to shed light on the challenges faced by intersex individuals and the implications of their invisibility in census data.
Listen to Upholding Inclusivity: Recognizing Intersex Identities in Uganda's Population Census part 1 by Breaking the silence Podcast MP3 song. Upholding Inclusivity: Recognizing Intersex Identities in Uganda's Population Census part 1 song from Breaking the silence Podcast is available on Audio.com. The duration of song is 25:40. This high-quality MP3 track has 129.895 kbps bitrate and was uploaded on 10 Jun 2024. Stream and download Upholding Inclusivity: Recognizing Intersex Identities in Uganda's Population Census part 1 by Breaking the silence Podcast for free on Audio.com – your ultimate destination for MP3 music.
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The podcast Breaking the Silence is dedicated to addressing sexual gender-based violence and amplifying the voices of sexual and gender-diverse individuals in Africa. The podcast aims to explore the complexities of this issue, promote dialogue, and advocate for change. The guests discuss the importance of inclusion and the challenges faced by the sexual and gender-diverse community, such as binary forms in Uganda's national census. They also discuss the impact of laws and policies on gender correction surgeries and the need for comprehensive approaches to address these issues. Hello everybody, welcome to Breaking the Silence, a podcast by Quest Programme Foundation. This is a Pan-African podcast dedicated to illuminating the pressing issue of sexual gender-based violence and amplifying the voices of sexual and gender-diverse individuals. My name is Amantha, your host, and together we'll explore the complex landscape of sexual gender-based violence across Africa, delve into the intersectionality of these experiences, and foster meaningful dialogue towards empowerment and change. Join us as we break the silence and champion the rights and dignity of all. Let's get started! The rampant anti-rights and anti-gender movement across the African continent has necessitated conversations. Conversations here that understanding the extremities in which it goes, but also to come up with solutions that are made by sexual and gender-diverse persons themselves, so we can see how we sort of work together as a continent, but also appreciate the individual country issues and see how it all fits into the whole plan. So Quest Women Pro is having these conversations with the sexual and gender-diverse community across the continent, and so today we're going to have a conversation around how important is inclusion, and what has really made this conversation important is Uganda is having a census, a national census, and when we're looking at the forms that were sent, they are binary forms as far as sex and gender goes, and so what does that mean? Does that mean that the whole of Uganda fits into the binary system? And so we're having that conversation, which people are included, what does that mean, and also to see what happens when people of a certain sex of the population are excluded from certain things. And also while we are having this conversation, we appreciate that there's a country in East Africa that has actually had, in 2022, had a law passed that makes it illegal to have surgeries to correct gender at birth, and so just to find out, has that been working, the policy versus the attitude on the ground, and how is it done, and how did they even arrive at such a policy, and how can Uganda also find ourselves having such policies, and maybe then we can figure out how to implement or how to work towards attitude of people, at least when we have the paper in place. And so my name is Samantha, and I'll be hosting, and so let everybody else introduce themselves. Hi everyone, my name is Dr. Nahiranda, I'm happy to be here, what I do in my free time is fashion styling, but I also enjoy shoemaking. Hi everyone, glad to be here, Samantha, thanks for having us. My name is Kastin, and I contribute to life as a communicator and an entertainer. My happy place is entertaining, that's all I ever want to do in life, so. Thank you, good evening everybody, my name is Joseph Nogheri, I work for Gender and Diverse Platforms in Kenya, in the first region, I'm a gender non-conforming person, I do gender, any particular gender that you feel is good with you, for you to use on me. I'm glad to be in this podcast, learning, relearning and unlearning issues on the intersects, at the same time looking at intersectionality in terms of population, census, socioeconomic impact of probably the sectors conducted, was it a win for Kenya, was it a loss, what are the wins, what are the losses, and so on and so forth. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. 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I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I'm glad to be here, looking to have a fruitful conversation, and may the conversation begin. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. I think I'll start by saying that in our census, 2019, we actually conducted intersex persons who are included in the census. In Kenya, we have seen progress because we are now able to talk about intersex issues openly. In Kenya, we have seen progress because we are now able to talk about intersex issues openly. In Kenya, we have seen progress because we are now able to talk about intersex issues openly. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. We are now able to recognize that intersex persons are here. Yes, yes, everything is wrong with early surgeries. Yes, yes, everything is wrong with early surgeries. We have experienced this in Kenya. We have experienced this in Kenya. We are assuming somebody carries pregnancy for nine months, We are assuming somebody carries pregnancy for nine months, they are given birth, and then the genitalia is male and is both male and female. and then the genitalia is male and is both male and female. So you are the parent, you are expecting, or your expectations were a big gap. or your expectations were a big gap. So you go ahead and do surgery So you go ahead and do surgery and leave the female genitalia. and leave the female genitalia. But as the baby grows, as the baby reaches adolescence, the baby starts growing beard. the baby starts growing beard. the baby starts growing beard. Instead of having, instead of having, when you reach adolescence, when you reach adolescence, you see the chest broadening. you see the chest broadening. After adolescence, after adolescence, they are literally opposite to the genitalia. they are literally opposite to the genitalia. They are parents, not they were. They are parents, not they were. So you see, you've now created another impact to that child. So you see, you've now created another impact to that child. So you see, you've now created another impact to that child. Or maybe you are expecting a baby boy. Or maybe you are expecting a baby boy. Or maybe you are expecting a baby boy. Or maybe you are expecting a baby boy. Or maybe you are expecting a baby boy. You got a person who has two genitalia. You got a person who has two genitalia. So you decide to do surgery and remain with the baby boy. So you decide to do surgery and remain with the baby boy. But as the baby boy grows and reaches adolescence, But as the baby boy grows and reaches adolescence, they start having, what we call the period. they start having, what we call the period. So where will you classify the child? So where will you classify the child? You know, parents look at genitalia. You know, parents look at genitalia. But the genitalia probably can expand further. But the genitalia probably can expand further. When children reach adolescence. When children reach adolescence. When children reach adolescence. These are the issues that parents have grappled with. These are the issues that parents have grappled with. We have had several cases such as that. We have had several cases such as that. Here in the country. So I feel that letting the child reach adolescence stage. So I feel that letting the child reach adolescence stage. So I feel that letting the child reach adolescence stage. And maybe the child, maybe after, I don't know, And maybe the child, maybe after, I don't know, in Kenya, 18 years, that is where you can consent to anything. that is where you can consent to anything. Maybe by then you will have understood your body well. Maybe by then you will have understood your body well. But if you are doing surgery to a six-month child, But if you are doing surgery to a six-month child, a one-year child, maybe even the doctor can respond that. Maybe even the doctor can respond that. Probably even the doctors themselves would be able to tell whether the child will grow with your assigned gender whether the child will grow with your assigned gender whether the child will grow with your assigned gender or the child will at some point probably overlook that gender probably overlook that gender and maybe get to the opposite of what you are expecting. and maybe get to the opposite of what you are expecting. Thank you. Thank you, Kelvin, for that. Thank you. Thank you, Kelvin, for that. I wanted to ask you, Dr. Nahiranda, Kelvin kind of showed us a layman picture for us. Kelvin kind of showed us a layman picture for us. And I'd just like to know, medically, is there anything... And I'd just like to know, medically, is there anything... Also, what do you people use to decide and say, Also, what do you people use to decide and say, OK, let's do this for this person. When I was growing up, I used to hear it was easier to make a boy. When I was growing up, I used to hear it was easier to make a boy. I don't know. Anyway, so what does medically... Anyway, so what does medically... Before, of course, we want you to stop, but medically, what do people use to come up with this decision? Is it like Kelvin is saying? Is it to the discretion of the parent? Or what do you use? And then also, what is the disadvantage? Not only just in the beginning, but also later on in life, what happens to these people? And I would love it if you gave it to... If you gave us of those... The people that have ambiguous gender, and even those people who have the chromosome issue, the different breakdown of what that would do to each individual. the different breakdown of what that would do to each individual. Yeah. I think the biggest struggle is for those that have over testicular DSDs, especially those that go ahead to have a phenotype of ambiguous genitalia. So, and those are the ones that normally get decided for to have corrective surgeries. And most times the decision is made based off... We don't do karyotype normally, actually. They're based off phenotype mostly. So, they use the most prominent organ. And then they use the phenotype that the parent has decided. So, if the child comes in... So, most times at birth, you see in utero, the genitalia is the same. It develops from the same thing. So, sometimes when kids are born, it may look a bit funny. It may not, you know. And we choose to like, okay, we let it pass. Or maybe the midwife who examined that child at birth didn't put any what? Any thought to it, yeah? Baby goes home, eh? Midwife says, okay, baby girl. Or midwife says, okay, baby boy. Maybe like a thing was, eh? Say, a bit longer than the than the lips, eh? So, okay, they go home, they have their baby boy. No karyotype is done, no images are done, no one knows anything about any other things happening. So, they buy this kid boy clothes, eh? And so, at a certain point, the mother notices this genitalia she's giving boy. They come. They come to Mulago. This is a case that I see. They come to Mulago. It's a person that bought them boy clothes at home. The surgeon is like, ah, let's make them a boy. I'm seeing, but sometimes... You know what possibly mushes me up? You know what possibly mushes me up in that scenario? Is I bet real money the surgeon is as confused as the parent in that moment, like... Yes. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Breaking the Silence. We hope today's conversation has inspired you to take action and advocate for the rights and safety of sexual and gender diverse individuals across Africa. Remember, change begins with awareness, empathy, and collective effort. Be sure to subscribe and tune in for our next episode, where we'll continue to explore the many facets of SGBV and work together towards a future free from violence and discrimination. Until then, stay informed, stay engaged, and keep breaking the silence.
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