JL Collins Part 1

J.L. Collins, author of "The Simple Path to Wealth," is a guest on a podcast. He discusses his book and the importance of investing and financial independence. He emphasizes the simplicity of his approach to investing and the power of index funds. Collins wrote the book for his daughter, hoping to provide her with a roadmap to financial independence. He believes that once you understand the key concepts and put your investments on autopilot, you don't need to constantly think about it. The less attention you pay to it, the better you will do. He also mentions a study (though it may be a myth) that shows that the best investors are those who have forgotten about their investments. Overall, Collins' approach is about simplicity and long-term thinking. Hey, Becky, how are you doing today? I'm great, Bill. It's all foggy and yucky here today. How about you? Well, I'm excited because today we have J.L. Collins on the show. He's a hero of mine, and I'm sure he's a hero of yours. And it's exciting that he's willing to support us and help us launch this mission we have to help late starters get started. Absolutely. His book, Simple Path to Wealth, was instrumental in mine and Stephen's understanding of things and figuring out how to retire and when we could retire. It was a huge impact on us. So we need to give a little disclaimer to the show. This is a big one for us. I'm a little nervous. I think my palms are sweaty. I put on a little extra deodorant or something like that. We're going to use a clip of J.L.'s as an entryway to this show. It's got a little bit of shock value. It's a little explicit. It's not for children's ears. But we adults are the ones that are mostly listening to this. I'm sure my children won't have any problems with it. You've given me permission to use this clip, and I'm excited that we can enter into this with a tribute to the Gambler movie by John Goodman. Yes. So just as a warning, this is R-rated. So if you don't want to hear it, then skip over about a minute and a half. But it is funny. I will say it is funny. It's not the kind of language I like to listen to very often, but it is hilarious. It's amazing that Becky had never heard of this. This is along the lines, you know, the opposite of this. Maybe we could use it at the end, is the meditation for a drop in the stock market. That's true. That's true. It is the bookend of this one. Very calm, very serene. All right. Well, J.L.'s about to enter the room. We better get ready and get our shit together. That's right. Looking forward to it. All right, Becky. See you back in a minute. You can get up $2.5 million. Any asshole in the world knows what to do. You put 80% in VTSAX, and now you own a piece of every publicly traded company in the United States of America. And every fucking stiff from the factory floor to the CEO is working to make you richer. Put the other 20% in VBTLX for your bonds to smooth the ride. Use the 4% rule and pull your $100,000 a year to spend. Don't buy a fucking house. Who needs the headaches? Rent yourself a nice place. Let the landlord worry about fixing the fucking toilets. You need a car? Get in an indestructible economy shitbox and you're done. That's your base, get me? That's your fortress of fucking solitude. That puts you for the rest of your life at a level of fuck you. Somebody wants you to do something? Fuck you. Your boss pisses you off? Fuck you. Keep a few bucks in the bank to pay your bills. Don't buy shit you don't really want to impress assholes you don't really like. Don't drink. That's all I have to say to anybody on a social level. Did your grandfather take risks? Yes. I guarantee he did it from a position of fuck you. A wise man's life is based around fuck you. The United States of America is based on fuck you. You're a king? You got an army? The greatest navy in the history of the world? Well fuck you, blow me. We'll fuck it up ourselves. Which we have done. A great fuck you position lost forever. Hi and welcome to Catching Up to Five, a podcast on mindset, money, life, on the journey to financial independence. I'm Bill and I'm a late starter. I'm Becky and I'm also a late starter and we're your hosts. We're here to help you with your journey to financial independence no matter where you're starting from. We're going to talk to other late starters, experts, and we'll explore topics related to our mission. Join us as we catch up to five together. Yeah, I have a lot more in common with late starters than I think most people realize because I didn't figure this stuff out until I was 50. I'm trying to think of exactly when it came together. So I spent a long time wandering in the wilderness before I figured out what I now call the simple path. I had no idea that it was that late. That will make our community feel, I think, much better about their path. And honestly, that is not something I knew about you. I would have thought you'd gotten it right earlier in life. No, I think one of the things that makes transitioning to index fund investing, which of course is what I recommend, is my dirty little secret is I achieved financial independence picking stocks and picking actively managed funds that were run by stock pickers. And the fact is that if you do that well enough, that works, and I did it well enough that it worked. The problem is it doesn't work as well as indexing, and it is certainly a lot more effort and time and work involved in making it work. So indexing is not only more powerful, but it's a whole lot simpler and easier. Well, let's jump in now to our formal talk because this chit-chat is actually exactly what we want our audience to hear. All right, let's go for it. Okay. Becky, I think you're the one that's going to be doing our introduction, so let her rip. Let's roll. All right. So J.L. Collins is the godfather of FI, the purveyor of the idea of FU money, and the smooth operator of index fund investing. J.L. has worked at about every job you can think of, from selling life's waters door to door and pumping gas to ad agency founder and investment officer. He's traveled the world by plane, train, boat, rickshaw, and elephant. He's an author, a blogger, and a creator of Chautauqua, which is a financial retreat held in cool international locations. But J.L. is best known for his stock series on his blog and his book, The Simple Path to Wealth, which has been translated into many languages and has sold over 500,000 copies. J.L., your book, Simple Path, has been the gateway to do-it-yourself investing for hundreds of thousands of people just like us, people who need a simple path to understanding and investing in the stock market and a roadmap to financial independence and a rich, free life. And I'd like to just interject a little bit of a personal story here. J.L., my husband and I got our financial life turned around with Dave Ramsey, and when we got to the end of that, we thought that was it. We knew everything we needed to know. And then we were introduced to the FI community through the Choose FI podcast, and the short version of this story is we started listening to Choose FI in 2017, right after they started it. You were on episode 19, and we started in May at the beginning and started listening through it. We listened to your episode, and we had struggled a lot with investing. We had gotten the savings and getting out of debt part down, but we had really struggled with investing. We listened to your episode, got your book, read it, and probably 30 days later, we fired our financial advisor and started doing it on our own. We even took the huge tax hit that it took to do all of that at once, and by the end of the year, we had gained all that back. So you made a huge impact on us and on our path to financial independence. So we're so excited to have you here today. J.L. Collins, welcome to Catching Up to FI. Well, thank you, Becky, and thank you for the wonderful introduction, and I'm glad the huge impact I had was a positive one. It definitely was. It was. The same is kind of true for me. I woke up 2016 or so right about the time that your book came out. It was one of the first books I read, and I was like, why did I not hear this when I was in the womb? Why did I not hear this when I was 10 years old? It didn't matter because it gave me a path, and you call it the simple path to wealth. I'm wondering why you call it the simple path to wealth, because do people think that there might be other simple paths, or is this the only one we should follow? Well, that might be a more interesting question, at least to me, than you realize, Bill. I was having a conversation with some friends just the other day about whether or not personal investing is personal, which is what is the common wisdom that is out there, and therefore there are all kinds of different paths. I think it's personal in the sense that everybody's situation is a little bit unique. My third book coming out in October, Pathfinders, is a collection of stories, 100 stories from people who've read the simple path to wealth and adapted it to their own unique situations depending on where they are in life and in many cases where they are in the world. But I call it the simple path because, as we talked about earlier, it took me a long time to figure this out, and I tried a lot of different things and a lot of things that worked. I think I mentioned to you that I actually achieved financial independence as a stock picker and picking actively managed index funds. So that's certainly something that works. It just doesn't work as effectively or as simply as the indexing approach that I recommend now. So from my view, I think I have distilled investing down to not only a very simple path but the most powerful path, and it's the path that I recommend to my daughter. All of this was written for my daughter. And, of course, because I'm out in the public eye, I have followers who love investing, and they're forever saying to me, you know, if you just tinkered it in this fashion, it might work a little better. And then I have other followers who are really disinterested in this subject, like, yeah, you know, this just seems really hard to me. I've got to monitor two funds, and so, you know, it depends on where they're coming from. But, yeah, I think this is from where I set the optimal path. That's interesting because we talked to Paul Merriman earlier in our show a few episodes ago, and he has his own version of a simple path. He calls it Two Funds for Life, which is basically a target date retirement fund plus small cap value, and he is a small cap value believer. Do you think a simple path like that could work as well as yours, or is that too complicated using a more volatile index like the small cap value index? So I was unaware that Paul now has a two-fund option. Last time I was talking to Paul and looking at his stuff, it was a little more complex than that. Those are obviously not the two funds that I recommend, but it's nice to see him getting focused down to something that was simpler. And I think he's a great example. So Paul used to make the case that with I think there were about four funds that if you back-tested it historically, it got a better performance over the decades than my approach, which is basically a total stock market index fund. And then when the time comes, a total bond, and we can talk about when that time comes, a total bond market index fund. And, you know, I will take Paul at his word that when he back-tested this, it in fact would outperform my approach. But the concern I had, and that I believe I expressed to him, is that I have enough trouble convincing people to stay the course just with a total stock market index fund. You know, people just feel compelled to deviate. The idea that you could get somebody to track four funds and rebalance them on a regular basis over the course of decades just struck me as being unrealistic, even if you could get a slight improvement in performance. And the performance improvement was pretty slight. So that's, again, one of the reasons that I think what I put forth in The Simple Path to Wealth is optimal. Interesting, because I reread your book for this interview after years, and I had succumbed a little bit to moderate complexity. And I was a Paul Merriman believer, and I still am. And I'm also a Jim Dolley White Coat investor believer. So I took a hybrid approach between all three. And after reading your book, I'm like, maybe I should simplify things a little bit. Maybe because what you say is absolutely true. It is a little harder. You're more resistant to, say, rebalancing because it's a little more complicated. And I could see myself with age migrating back to The Simple Path from a moderately complex path. Becky, you're a follower, however, right? I am. I am. In my case, like I said, my husband and I tried so many different things. We tried picking mutual funds ourselves. We at least knew not to pick individual stocks. But we tried picking mutual funds, and that turned into an epic fail. And so we did eventually give all of our money over to an advisor, and for a season, he was – that was helpful. He at least got us out of the ditch and got things moving forward. But then after – and we could talk about this later – but after mainly understanding what we were paying in fees, then we decided that it was possible – I mean, I still feel like I don't really know that much about the stock market, but your explanation of it and how to deal with it and how to invest in it just made total sense to me. So I am a believer of The Simple Path. You know, J.L., your book is really a game changer for lots of people. In fact, we have a community member, Alex, that wanted to express his gratitude, and he wrote, I quote, for the greatest book he has ever read. And he gives it out as gifts. And so I wanted to ask you, so who did you write the book for? What was your end game in writing Simple Path? So first of all, big thanks to Alex. That's certainly high praise indeed. And before we go on to who I wrote it for, I just want to make a quick comment. You know, Paul Merriman and Jim Dahl, for anybody who follows what they recommend, will get great results. I think it's important to remember that, you know, we're not talking about something that works and things that don't work. We're talking about a matter of degrees. So if you follow their recommendations, not for a moment suggesting that what they're recommending is bad. I just want to be clear about that. And if you follow that, and particularly if you follow it precisely over the decades, you will get great results. So finally, Becky, to answer your question, all of this I wrote for my daughter. And, you know, I made the mistake early on of pushing this stuff onto her way too soon when she was too young. Who knew four-year-olds didn't want to go through the Wall Street Journal with you, but, you know, there you go. And so the end result is that by the time she was old enough to hear it, she just didn't want to hear it. And she came home from college one day, and I started in on one of my many lectures because it's so important. If you get money stuff right, you know, life is much easier. And if you don't get money stuff right, life can be incredibly hard. So it was important to me. I wanted my kid to have the best possible life. So in any event, I started in on one of my lectures, and she stopped me and she said, you know, Dad, I get it. I mean, I understand this is important. I just don't want to have to think about it all the time. And that was an epiphany for me because I realized at that moment that my daughter had better things to do with her life than think about money and investing all the time, as do most people. You know, it's only weird people like me that enjoy thinking and talking about this stuff. And so the Simple Path to Wealth was really written for her against the day. In fact, the blog was started for it, Archive the Information, to begin with, and, of course, that evolved into the book, The Simple Path to Wealth, against the day when she was willing to hear it, hopefully willing to hear it. And, by the way, she has, and she's on the path, and all is good. And her superpower is that she doesn't care about this stuff. And I think that's a superpower potentially for a lot of people is investing is made to seem to be incredibly complex. And the way Wall Street presents it is incredibly complex, but it doesn't have to be. You just have to get a couple of key things down, a couple of, understand a couple of concepts, put it on autopilot, and then you are best served by paying as little attention as possible and going about your life. And that's, so my daughter, when the market crashes and people are actively engaged with this stuff are panicking and thinking whether they should sell or not. By the way, the answer to that is no, you shouldn't sell. My daughter isn't even going to notice that the market's crashing, you know, because she's going to go on with her life. And 20 years from now, she's going to look at her accounts and see what's been accomplished. I think that's very comforting probably to our audience because for those of us that wake up late and go, oh, my gosh, what do I do now? Then probably this is on the front of their mind a lot. They think about, you know, what the mistakes they've made, at least I did, about the mistakes they've made and then what do I do to fix it? But once you get things turned around, straightened out, and understand how to head in the direction you want to go in, then I think it would be very comforting to our audience to know you don't have to think about this all the time. No, in fact, you know, investing is one of those weird things where once you understand these couple of key concepts and you've put things in motion, then investing is one of those weird things that the less attention you pay to it, the better you will do. You know, my daughter, who pays virtually no attention to it, is going to outperform almost every active fund manager out there who is spending their lives, highly intelligent people, you know, spending their lives trying to figure out day to day, moment to moment, what the market's going to do. I love the quote that you have mentioned in the past about the, I believe it's a Fidelity study, that said the performance of investors. Yeah, evidently that study is a myth. Oh, really? Okay. I've come to find out that there actually is no study along those lines, but it's still, the point is still the same. And the study, supposed study, was that Fidelity had looked at all of its investors and the category of investors that did best were dead people. Because obviously they weren't making any changes. The second best category were the people who'd forgotten that they owned the account. And once they forgot, they weren't making any changes. So even though the study didn't take place, or at least evidently it didn't, I think it still makes a very valid point. You know, Jack Bogle famously said once, I think when the market was plunging, as it does periodically, which is a perfectly normal part of the process, Bogle evidently said, don't just, what was it, don't just do something, stand there. That's right, that's right. Good advice. It's funny that you say that your daughter wouldn't listen to you and you were a lecturer. My kids call me Lecture Daddy. When I woke up, I was preaching and preaching, you'd have thought I'd been on a soapbox. My kids were just, fell on deaf ears. And in order to find some repository for all of my energy and the rabbit hole I was going down, I started a community called Financial Literacy Project and dumped all the wisdom I could find in there. And that has since morphed into Catching Up to Five. But lecturing does not work. You've got to find the moment where people are willing to listen. It's that person that takes you aside and says, oh, you should think about doing this or you should think about reading A Simple Path to Wealth, where it's more passive as opposed to actively trying to change somebody's mind. We live in a fight or flight world. We are fighting against our own minds in this realm. And I can say, thankfully, that I've gotten one of my sons to read your book. And he said, you know what, he makes it fun because he's so funny. Well, we ought to get your son together with my daughter. So probably about five years ago now, I was out in California and I was visiting DreamWorks. They'd invited me to – there's a small cadre of people that work there that are interested in my blog and book. And they invited me to come out and give a little talk and do a little Q&A. And my wife and daughter were with me. And so after lunch, we were in this room that they put together, and I'm taking questions. And my wife, Jane, and my daughter, Jessica, are sitting on either side of me. And at one point, a woman in the audience addresses her comments to Jessica. It wasn't a question, just a comment. And what she said was, you know, it must have been wonderful growing up with this man as your father. And my daughter looked at this woman, and she looked at me, and she looked back at this woman, and she said, not as much as you think. Well, that actually begs the question that I haven't heard much about is your sort of developmental financial acumen. Take us back for a minute as to, you know, were you a natural saver? Did your parents impact you? And as soon as you discover, you know, that the power of – I know it was more complex for you earlier, but it sounds like you were a saver anyway because you did technically retire early. What influenced you earlier in your life that made the big difference? Well, you know, I'm not – when it comes to the savings part, I'm not entirely sure because I was a saver from the beginning. Becky mentioned that my long career that I sold Vice Waters door to door. I was five years old when I was doing that. My father was a manufacturer's rep, and he had a line of Vice Waters at one point, and he had old samples that, you know, he didn't need anymore, and he gave them to me to sell. So I was kind of an ambitious entrepreneurial kid, and I liked saving money. I remember my mother telling me, oh, you know, if you save enough money, you can buy a convertible when you're 16. So that might have been part of it, but in terms of the investing part of it, my dad was self-employed, and he was fairly successful, and we had a pretty comfortable life, but he was also a cigarette smoker. And as the cigarettes began to erode his health, that also eroded his ability to work and earn, and we went from being fairly comfortable to being very uncomfortable. That, I think, was a scarring time for me, and it kind of happened when I was in junior high school and high school. And, you know, cigarettes kill you very slowly. They debilitate you first, and that's what happened to my dad, and he had not been a saver or an investor. So we fell on hard times, and I think I remember wanting to be sure that I was never in that position, and I always wanted to have money available if, for whatever reason, I lost a job or I couldn't work or I simply didn't want to work for a while, which was a concept that occurred to me later in life. So I think that was one of the motivating factors that implemented the benefit of being a saver, if you will, into being an investor. Yeah, there seems to be a traumatic event that, you know, creates the change. For me, it was turning 50, and so I wish I'd had a traumatic event earlier in my life, quite honestly, because that is a huge motivator to change your habits, change your behavior, and that's a common thread in our community with stories that we hear from them about things like divorce or other financial trauma that leads them to say, you know what, there's got to be a better way. Right, right. It's too bad it sometimes takes the trauma. Yeah, let's dig into the meat of our talk here today, and let's start with a common question. I don't know if you came up with this term or not, but what is F-you money? Well, so first of all, I didn't come up with that term. In fact, I don't think anybody really knows where that term originally came from. I first came across it reading a book called Noble House, which is the last of a trilogy by James Covell that starts with Taipan, great series of novels. And in Noble House, there is a character, and her ambition is to have F-you money, and that was the first time I had ever heard that term, and it immediately resonated with me because I knew I wanted to accumulate money as a buffer against the bad things life can throw at you, as they did my father, but I never had a term for it. And I certainly never heard the term financial independence or F-you. I didn't actually hear those terms until after I had started my blog in 2011, but the F-you money term just resonated and gave me an idea of – it put a label on what in the back of my mind I was trying to accomplish. Okay. Well, one of the things that leads you to want F-you money is debt, and you have certainly particular opinions on it, and I believe you've never held a car payment. Why is debt so important in our journey to financial independence, and how do you recommend we avoid it? We seem to be numb to it in our society, and it gets us in trouble. Yeah, it gets people in huge trouble. When I was writing The Simple Path to Wealth, actually, my editor – I didn't have a chapter on debt because I've never had debt. I mean, I was – the way I was raised, if you couldn't pay cash for it, you couldn't afford it. You mentioned car payments. My father always bought cars for cash. He'd buy a new car every five years, and the moment he bought that new car, he would start depositing money every month into a bank account. So the bank paid him interest instead of paying interest on a loan. And then at the end of that five-year period, when he needed to buy a new car, wanted to buy a new car, then he took that cash and continued the cycle. So I've never had any experience with debt. And when my editor said, you know, debt's an important thing, there really ought to be a chapter about debt in the book, that was a little bit of a challenge for me. Because, of course, he was absolutely right. Debt is critical. You can't really achieve financial independence if you're carrying debt around. It's like a ball and chain around your ankles. So I think the first step is being aware that it's a ball and chain. I think in our culture, in our society, we're trained basically that debt's normal, that, you know, of course, you deserve whatever it is that you want to buy, and there is an easy credit plan to enable you to buy it. But that wasn't always the case. College educations, for instance, I think are a great example of that. When I was in college, back in the Stone Age, it would have been very hard or almost impossible to find somebody to lend you money to pay for your college tuition. And eventually, you know, that became common. The government started backing these kinds of loans. And the moment that you could finance a college education, not surprisingly, the cost of college education skyrocketed. The same thing, by the way, happened with automobiles, you know. When people first bought cars, you know, there weren't car loans. But the moment the sellers figured out that, well, if we can figure out a way that people can borrow money to buy this product, we can probably sell a lot more of these products and for a lot more money. So there's a – it's sort of ingrained in our culture that taking on debt to buy stuff is normal. And I think the first step is understanding, yeah, that might be normal, but it's deadly to your financial well-being. True. So we're going to – through the course of our conversation today, we're going to dig into different kinds of investing and your take on that. But I wanted to start with something that you don't necessarily consider a great investment, which is real estate. So let's chat just for a little bit about your real estate experiences. Well, I – so first of all, I think real estate can be a great investment. Where I maybe differ is that I cringe at this idea that seems to be commonly out there, that real estate is an easy way to accumulate wealth. It's a great way to accumulate wealth, but it's not an easy way to accumulate wealth. If you're going to be a real estate investor, you are basically going into a business. And if you take the time to learn that business and learn how it is done well, then, yes, you can be very successful. I was actually on a podcast I recorded last week with Scott Trench, who is the CEO of Bigger Pockets, which is a very successful real estate podcast. If you're going to go into real estate investing, then you ought to be listening to Bigger Pockets. You ought to be reading books about real estate. You ought to be doing your homework. And if you do those things, then real estate can be very powerful. It's important – and Scott and I talked about this in the podcast – it's important that you be sure that if you're going to invest in real estate, that you can actually outperform a total stock market index fund, because that fund doesn't take any of your time. And real estate, even if you farm out a lot of the stuff, is going to take your time. And so you're entitled to, and you had better expect a better return than that. Well, again, that speaks to doing it well. I think, Becky, you were alluding to my second book, which is How I Lost Real Estate – Money and Real Estate Before It Was Fashionable, which is the comic, tragic story of the very first thing I ever bought, which was a condo in Chicago. And I think it's – and the subtitle of that book is A Cautionary Tale, and I think it is in the sense that I made every possible mistake you could make with that particular piece of real estate, both buying it to live in, which was my initial intent, and then as it morphed into being a rental, because I couldn't unload it, because the Chicago real estate market had absolutely collapsed at that point. So, yeah, that's – it's a cautionary tale, and I think as part of your real estate education, that's a very short, fun, you can laugh at me and all my mistakes book that's a cautionary tale for anybody who thinks about buying real estate and thinks it's going to be easy and thinks that they can do it without doing their homework. You also talk about our houses, the American dream, our houses, and you call them the worst investment or actually they have characters of the worst investment. Can you take us through what those are and what the worst investment really is and why does a house – why is a house potentially synonymous with that? Yeah, you know, I should probably call that post up so I could remember it. It's interesting about that post is that I did that as kind of a work. I had been at a banquet dinner, and I was sitting next to a woman who was talking about trying to get her 20-year-old son to buy a house, and that just seemed like terrible, a terrible idea given the more she talked about this son. And so the next day when I was home, I rattled off this post. It turned out that it's the most read post on the blog. It is the one that's drawn the most hate and the most love depending on which side of the fence you're on. Now, the truth is I've owned houses most of my adult life. The difference is I don't buy houses expecting them to be great investments because they're not. Sometimes – these are the people who hate me for this post – sometimes people get lucky, and it turns out financially very well for them. Of course, sometimes, you know, people buy in areas that don't turn out very well, like Detroit is an example. And then there are people who bought in San Francisco and did extraordinarily well, but I was just visiting a friend in Detroit, and he's taking me around showing me how the city is in a renaissance. And, of course, San Francisco is in the news these days for all the terrible things that are happening there. So who knows? Maybe 10 years from now, the story will be, boy, those poor people who bought in San Francisco, and look at these smart people who bought in Detroit. So that's lesson number one. You don't really know. It's a tough thing to figure out. I see houses as expensive indulgences. And, as I say, I've owned them for most of my adult life because I've always bought houses that I could easily afford, and I bought them because they were going to provide a lifestyle that I wanted to spend my money on at that time. But if, and in fact when, I was more focused on simply building my wealth, I lived in cheap rentals because I'm never going to be tempted to rent more space than I need at that moment. I'm never going to be tempted to renovate the kitchen in that rental or the bathrooms, which are expensive things. I'm never going to have to worry about my real estate taxes going up. So if you want to build wealth, you want to keep your expenses low on the big things like cars and houses, and renting is the best way to keep your expenses fixed, among other things, and as low as possible because you are in the position to rent only what you need. So what does our, you know, what do my kids do now? We've got escalating rents. We've got high house prices. We've got inflation. What do you see people, and it is location dependent obviously, but it seems like a lose-lose. Well, again, it depends, you know, so I have a post called Wings vs. Roots or something along those lines, where I do the analysis of the house I had in New Hampshire, which I immediately sold when my daughter went off to college and we moved into a rental. One of the criticisms that I get about that post is people say, well, you went from this 3,500-square-foot house to a 1,200-square-foot or 1,000-square-foot, I forget the exact numbers, rental, and that's not apples to apples, which is precisely the point. You know, I was in a house that I didn't need the size of that and an apartment I could focus on it. There, even when you look at houses that have done well, where people have gotten lucky and bought in the right neighborhood and their house has gone up, when you really analyze those numbers of the money that they put into the house over time, the cost of buying and selling it and et cetera, and you look at the actual profit they made, and then you compare it to what they might have done in an index fund over that same 10-, 20-year period, whatever, you will almost always see an outperformance on the index fund. So to answer, that's a long way around, Bill, to answering your question, I wouldn't worry about it. I would, I think your children, if they need a house because, let's say, they want to be in a certain school system, if they're married and they have kids, that's a different thing, then you focus on buying that expensive indulgence, thinking of it that way. But if you don't need a house, then my advice would be don't worry about it. Rent what you need, invest the difference, and then when the time comes when you do need or you really want a house, you'll probably have the resources to do that. That's what my daughter is doing. I was looking at your post, and I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head, where you go through some examples of running the numbers. You talk about running the numbers between renting and ownership, and I do own my home, and it really made me stop and think because we have a couple of big repairs facing us. We've been told our heater unit is probably on its last legs. It's a 30-year-old house, and it's the original heater, so that didn't surprise me. But, and then we've recently had a roof leak, and the house needs to be painted, and, you know, I thought, gosh, I haven't really thought about amortizing those expenses over time, and how would that compare to if I were renting a house instead of owning it? So it made me think. Yeah, no, it's, and again, I'm not anti-house, as I say. I've owned most of my adult life. But I object to, again, there's this drumbeat, just like debt. There's this drumbeat in this country that you should absolutely own a house, and it's the best thing you can do financially. And that's simply not true. It's not, maybe on occasions it's true, but it's not commonly true. When I hear people object to this, they'll say things like, well, my mortgage is less than rent. Well, yeah, but when you're renting, you're not paying real estate taxes, and you're not replacing the furnace and the roof, and people tend to conveniently forget about the things that are not fixed, like their, you know, people love the idea that their mortgage payment is fixed, and that can be a great thing over time. And certainly if the longer you're in a house, the better it's going to work out. But that's the only thing that's fixed. You know, the cost of repairing your roof isn't fixed. Your real estate taxes aren't fixed. So it is something that bears a lot closer inspection. And the reason I make the point that I've always owned houses is I think some people, when I really read between the lines of their defense of owning a house and why it's a good investment, they're really justifying what they want to do by trying to make it work as an investment and being the better economic choice. You don't have to do that. If you have the money, you can buy things that are not the optimal choice. I mean, every time I bought a house myself, that was not the optimal financial choice. I could have done better things with that money financially that would have made me wealthier today. But it's not, you know, our lives are not all about just accumulating money. That's an important part of it, but to enhance our lifestyle. So at a certain point, going back to Bill's question, when your children need a house, then if they've done the other financial parts right, they'll be in a stronger financial position to buy that house. And I'm always a believer in buying things from a position of strength. So that means also not buying houses that stretch you financially. You should buy houses that you can easily afford. Okay. We've gone down a bit of a deep dive on real estate. You're not known for real estate. You're really known for stocks, bonds, index funds. Let's transition into your thoughts on why we should invest in the stock market. Oh, that's the question. I was waiting for the rest of it. So let me make this statement. Sure. JL, so that our listeners all have the same starting point, can you just quickly give us a definition of a stock and a bond and then the stock market? Sure. So you're going to have to remind me of Bill's question again when I go down there. But basically, and I think this is a great question, Becky, because people get, especially when it comes to stocks, they get confused. Because there's a tendency to think of stocks as these little bits of paper or these little bits on your computer these days that you just buy and sell. And that's certainly true if you're a trader. But I'm not a trader, and I don't advocate trading. I'm an investor, which means I'm looking at the long term. So if you're doing anything other than thinking long term, you are a speculator or a trader, not an investor. And when you're an investor, when you're buying a stock, you are buying a piece of a business. So if you buy stock in Apple, as example, you own, if you buy a share of Apple, you own a very small but a very real part of that business. And that means you are entitled to benefit from the results of the operation of that business. Some of those benefits and results, and Apple's a good example because they've started paying a dividend, might come to you in the form of dividends. Some of those results might come in the form of the business becoming more valuable. Some of the results might come in the form of the business buying back some shares. So there are fewer pieces of that business out there. So your little piece is now a bigger part of the bigger percentage of the hold. But the important thing for people to understand is you are an owner of that business. When you own BTSAX, which is Vanguard's total stock market index fund, and the one that I recommend most and that I'm in personally, you own a piece of every publicly traded company in the United States. You own a piece, and in my case, I own a piece of every public company in the United States. In a very real and tangible form. And so if those companies collectively prosper, which they will do to the extent the United States prospers, then I will prosper. So when you own stock, it's ownership in the business. Bonds, on the other hand, are a loan that you make to whoever is issuing the bond. So if you're buying a corporate bond, you are, let's say you're buying Apple's bond. I don't know if Apple has bonds, but staying with that example, if they do. If Apple issues a bond and they're trying to raise capital to do something, if you buy that bond, basically you are lending Apple money. When you buy treasuries from the U.S. government, you are lending the U.S. government your money. So when you buy a bond, you're a lender. And the bond will have a term, a certain length, and at the end of that length, whether it's in the case of treasuries, you know, it could be days, it could be 30 years. At the end of that period of time, unless your borrower defaults, you will get 100% of your money back. You will also be paid interest as long as that bond is, as long as you hold that bond before it's paid back. That interest rate is determined when you buy the bond. So if you buy a bond from Apple, for instance, and it's paying 5% and it's for 10 years, Apple has agreed to pay you 5% every year for the next 10 years, and at the end of that 10-year period, you get all of your money back. So that's what a bond is. So when you're a stock owner, you're an owner. When you're a bond owner, you're a lender. Does that make sense? Yes, thank you. And when I first read your book, one of my big takeaways from Simple Path was to understand what the stock market was and how to not be afraid of it. So just give us a real quick explanation of what is the stock market. Well, the stock market is basically where traders come together to facilitate the buying and selling of those shares of stocks. So that's what the market is. So when you watch the Dow Jones Industrial Average, which is the most widely quoted, those are 30 stocks that have been picked that are designed to track the market overall. If you look at the S&P 500, which is a better proxy because it's bigger, those are the 500 largest companies in the United States. So if you're going to track the stock market and see how did it do today versus I prefer the S&P 500, you can look at that and you can see, oh, it's up, it's down, whatever it has done. That is the collective result during that day of all the buying and selling that people have done. And that's mostly speculation. So in my book and in the blog, I've drawn the analogy, which people seem to like, of a glass of beer. So imagine that you've got a glass of beer, but you can't – it's not a clear glass. You can't see what's inside of it, right? So in that glass, there's going to be, depending on how that beer was poured, anybody who drinks beer can appreciate this, depending on how that beer was poured, there's going to be a certain amount of beer and there's going to be a certain amount of foam. Well, in our analogy, the beer in that glass are the companies that we as investors own. That's our piece of that company that we're going to prosper with that company as it does well. So if Apple grows and prospers, that's our beer that we're going to grow and prosper. The foam is all that trading that is done day to day. And that foam, of course, is a measure of how full that glass is at any given point. So if there's a lot of foam, which means a lot of traders are excited about Apple, well, then that glass is going to be fuller. If for some reason Apple does something that traders don't like, there'll be a lot less foam and it'll look like it's a lot lower. But underneath all that foam, there is that core business that we own and that we care about. If you're a long-term investor, long-term meaning looking out decades, you don't care about the foam. You care about the beer. We're in it for the beer. So one of the things that I think people need to understand is the statement you make that, and you show examples of this with over time graphs in your book, why does the stock market always go up? Why do we expect it? So that's a subject that there's a lot of conversation around. I'm not sure I buy some of what's around. But let me answer it by saying, you know, why does an index fund like VTSAX, why does that go up? And that goes, and in a way, that's the stock market, right? So the beauty of an index fund, of VTSAX, is that it buys everything. So not every company is going to succeed. You know, some companies are going to fail. All companies have a life cycle. They all have a length of time, which is surprisingly short based on the research. You can take a company like Sears, right? And Sears was started, I want to say, in the 1800s. You know, for about 100 years, Sears was an incredibly dominant company. When I was a kid, I mean, Sears was the Amazon, the Walmart of the day. Sears built the Sears Tower in your town, Chicago, the tallest building in the world at the time. Now Sears is an afterthought because other companies just came along and ate their lunch. They have the Amazons and the Walmarts and what have you in the world. So companies rise. Companies rise and then they fall in their life cycle, but they're replaced by new companies. Because I own the index, there's a process that I've called self-cleansing. And that means that as Sears falls away, I already own the ones that are replacing it. I already own Walmart and Amazon and what have you. And because the economy is dynamic and the people in those companies are all striving to win at this game, I benefit from that. And you mentioned my John Goodman video. As I say in that video, when I own VTSAX, everybody in those companies, from the CEO to the factory floor, are working to make me richer. When Sears falls away, the worst thing that can happen is it can lose 100%. When Walmart and Amazon are on the way up, they can gain 100% or 200 or 500 or 10,000. So in a sense, it's a rigged game. When I have my own, my index, my losers can only lose 100%. My winners can go on to great heights beyond that. And then when their cycle is over, whatever company is coming along to replace them, I'll own it. I gave a talk at Google in 2018, and one of the comments that I made to that audience was, someday Google is going to be replaced. Someday Google's life cycle will come to an end. Some other competitors will figure out how to replace Google. That was an outrageous thing to say at the time because Google was at the height of its powers. In many ways, it still is. But if I was laughed at for that and they were too courteous to do that, it would have been no more than if somebody had said that about Sears in 1970. When we look at the stock market, I mean, we've talked about or touched on how the stock market always goes up. But we look at it day to day, and it's all over the place. It's like a roller coaster, right? Absolutely. And it instills a lot of aches and fear in people. In fact, I've heard people make comments that investing in the stock market, you might as well take your money to Vegas, that it's like gambling. So tell us why investing in the stock market is a good thing and how to navigate all of these ups and downs and this craziness that seems to be surrounding it. CJ, with regards to this question, you have a great story you tell that I think is worth retelling. I think you call it the time machine or the time machine story. If you remember that, can you take us through that because I think it actually answers the question. Sure. So if you will remind me of that in the chat. Let me address your question a little differently. But I'm happy to do that because that happens to be one of my personal favorite posts. And if you remind me, I will surely forget by the time I deal with Becky's question a little bit. But going back to Becky, to the volatility of the stock market, I think the reason people feel that way is perfectly understandable because everything they see in the media is about the speculators. It's about the phone we talked about at the moment. It's about the buying and selling and trying to say, what's this stock going to do today or next week. It's all very short-term kinds of things. And that is absolutely akin to Vegas. It's absolutely akin to gambling. In fact, that's what you're doing now. It's dressed up in research and what have you. And nobody can accurately predict what any given company is going to do in the short term. So when people have that feeling that this is, man, investing is just like Vegas, well, it's because they're watching CNBC and what they're seeing on that television is they're right. It is exactly like Vegas. But, again, we're not speculators, or we shouldn't be speculators. What I'm recommending is not speculation. I'm recommending investing for the long term, which is why you want to own an index fund that will self-cleanse for you on the long term so you don't have to worry about is Sears going up or down, is Amazon about to peak and begin going down, or is it going on to go down? I don't have to worry about any of that. The index will take care of that for me. Now, the volatility is an important thing to address because the volatility that you see in the stock market, those ups and downs, key thing you need to understand, and remember at one point I said there's a couple of key things you have to understand, and then you have to implement your investing. This is one of the key things. You have to understand when the market drops, and it will drop routinely, or when it crashes and plunges, which it doesn't do often, but it does do, that's a perfectly normal part of the process. And the correct response to that is what Jack Bogle said, don't just do something, stand there, do nothing. So I tell people if you're not prepared to tie yourself to the mast and ride out the storms without panicking and selling, you don't want to follow my advice because if you're going to panic and sell, well, you're now short-term trading, you're speculating, and my advice is going to leave you bleeding on the side of the road if you do that. So the first thing you have to understand, first concept, is do you have the emotional fortitude to watch your portfolio drop when the market drops and ignore it and do nothing, knowing that it will turn around and go back to greater heights. So Bill, to the story that you – I actually did remember it, which surprises me. So the time machine and the future value of stocks, as a post I wrote maybe five years ago, six years ago, something like that, and the conceit of that post is that imagine you're in 1975, and I picked that year because that's the year I started investing. So imagine you're sitting around with a bunch of friends in 1975, and 1975, by the way, the 70s were a very difficult time for the stock market. This was a time of high inflation. This was a time of stagflation. I think 1974 had been a major crash in the market. So you're sitting around with your buddies, and you're all talking, and you say, well, I wonder if we should be investing in the stock market. And I say, well, you know, as a matter of fact, I can help answer this question because I just got back from 2015. That's when I wrote the post. I just got back from 2015 in my time machine. So I can tell you exactly what happened in this last 40 years. And then the post goes through all of the terrible things that happened. Again, the market was in a bad way with inflation and stagflation, business week, and I think 78 came out with its infamous cover, the death of equities. Then there was a major recession when the Fed started jacking up interest rates to control inflation. We had Black Monday, which was in 87. We had the tech crash at the end of the 90s. We had the worst economic decline other than the Great Depression in our history in 08, 09. And then I go through, you know, not to mention we had the worst attack on our own soil in 9-11 since Pearl Harbor. We got into a couple of major expensive wars and, you know, the whole litany of things that, bad things that had happened in that 40 years. And, of course, everybody sitting around said, wow, I'm sure glad you came back to tell us all that stuff. I'm clearly not going to invest in the stock market knowing that. Oh, well, by the way, I also checked how the stocks did over the 40-year period, and on average they returned just under 12% a year. That's the actual number. I think it was 11.98%. The point of that is that the stocks declined to go up don't require a golden period in time where no bad things are happening. As somebody once said, stocks climb a wall of worry. So over time, stocks do extraordinarily well in spite of all the bad things that might be happening at the time. This is a heads up to our Catching Up to Five audience. Our conversation with J.L. Collins lasted two hours. We're breaking this one up into two parts. This has been part one of this two-part series. We hope you've enjoyed it. Tune in next week for the rest of our conversation with Mr. J.L. Collins. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Catching Up to Five. We would appreciate it if you could leave a five-star review so that our message can reach others. We are not lawyers, financial advisors, accountants, or tax experts. Please consult your own professional advisors before making any important decisions. Our content is for entertainment and education purposes only. We'll see you next time on Catching Up to Five. 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Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five Catching Up to Five We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Catching Up to Five. 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