Loula Yorke

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the audio.com podcast where we interview artists and musicians about their work in sound. I’m Ilia Rogatchevski and for our first episode of 2024, I will be speaking to the Suffolk based award winning composer and sound artist Loula Yorke. Yorke has been active in the electronic music scene for a number of years, first as part of TR-33N, the live rave duo formed with her partner Dave Stitch, and later as a solo artist whose principal focus has been modular synthesis. Each release takes a different approach to the instrument: the albums ysmysmysm and LDOLS (both from 2019) can be characterized by their experimental and almost gritty sound, while Florescence, from 2022, is an exploration of music as mass: trancelike and wonky. Yorke’s latest album Volta, which will be released on 23 January by Truxalis, explores ideas of cyclical time and moves away from the improvised nature of her earlier work. All the synth lines on Volta were carefully programmed. Yorke would spend days in her studio adjusting and refining loops in almost a monastic fashion, whittling down her sound and setting restrictions for herself: no granular synthesis, no vocals, no drums. Loula also spearheaded a 3-year sonic arts project called Atari Punk Girls, which enabled female and female-identifying teenagers to build their own oscillators and perform concerts with them. During the pandemic, Yorke co-developed and curated SonitusLIVE, a fortnightly live streaming series hosted on YouTube and Twitch, that focused on experimental electronics. Loula has collaborated with artists such as the former snooker player turned electronic musician Steve Davis, the deaf performance artist Chisato Minamimura and the writer and sound artist Una Lee, with whom she has the duo OULAN. Yorke will be performing on 12 January at The Smokehouse in Ipswich, 27 January at the Norwich Arts Centre, 30 January at Cafe Oto in London, on 23 February at the Howard Assembly Room in Leeds and on 1 March at the Firstsite Gallery in Colchester. For more information about the concerts or about Loula in general visit https://loulayorke.com. Our conversation took place over Zoom in December 2023. The question I like to begin my interviews with, in this format, is something that I ask everyone more or less, and it is, when did you first become aware of sound? What is your first sonic memory? Genuinely, the first kind of sonic memories I have is of pop music, and particularly of like an ABBA track that I think my parents like had an ABBA tape or something and just dancing around like age four and like working out how to use the tape deck to get this tape into the machine and like dance around to it. Like it would have been like Super Trooper or something like mega cheesy and like euphoric. But yeah, like I'm just casting back to see if there's anything more kind of nuanced or interesting, but I genuinely think it's just pop music. Like I just absolutely loved pop music and wanted to, yeah, dance and sing and yeah, be part of that world, I think. I think that's the case for a lot of people, because pop music is sort of in the ether, it's everywhere, isn't it? It's in the background, even without you being aware of it. Was there a moment in your artistic development where you sort of became interested and saturated with electronic music or did it happen gradually? It definitely happened gradually. I mean, when I was growing up in the UK, the rave scene in the early 90s was kind of this undercurrent alongside the mainstream that then kind of broke into the mainstream. So I think for a lot of people of my generation, when we were like 11, 12, there was like Castle Morton on the telly, this like huge free festival that had got, you know, I don't know, 100,000 people were at it or whatever. And that kind of broke into the mainstream consciousness, this like idea of electronic music as this kind of really transgressive, interesting place that you could live, as it were. So that was going on. And then it sort of broke into the charts as well. So you had like a lot of big dance hits, as it were. So I think, yeah, electronic music kind of just sort of came in gradually. And then into kind of my world personally, I remember buying the Aphex Twin I Care Because You Do on CD and just being completely blown away by that and definitely sort of changed everything. Because up until that point, I've been very much like PJ Harvey guitars. I wanted to learn the guitar. I tried to, you know, play the guitar and stuff. And then it was like, oh, hang on a second. There's this whole other music world that's like really exciting. So, yeah, sort of across my teens, really. Yeah. And then into my 20s when I started trying to make electronic music, very unsuccessful. I didn't really manage to make it particularly, but I had more success with like hardware than software. So, yeah, that was a kind of revelatory moment for me, was I kept trying to make music with a computer and I was like having this empty timeline and just really not understanding how to get music out of it at all. Whereas with hardware, I found that you've got your loop, you've got your thing, it's kind of already playing and then you start to affect it and add to it. And I was like, oh, OK. So for me, that was a revelation around hardware more than anything. I think with electronic music at the time, it was sort of promising an alternative way of living as well, like an alternative future that you could be a part of, very much community based. And I know that you ran or co-ran a sound system called Headfuk and you were involved with sort of left-wing politics as well, like anarchist groups, as far as I understand. Can you talk a little bit about your involvement in that side of things? Very much, yeah. So, I mean, first of all, Headfuk was like my partner Dave Stitch's kind of sound system and I definitely joined onto that a lot later on. So, yeah, I wouldn't want to like overstate that. But yeah, they certainly kind of where I ended up. But I started off before kind of getting into partying, doing direct action and kind of again, that was around about the time around the stuff that was kicking off with the World Trade Organization. And there were a lot of big protests around that time. J18, all that kind of thing, which kind of drew in a lot of people. And this seemed like a really direct way to go like, I don't agree with this, you know. And so, yeah, sort of mucked around with protest groups for a few years doing direct action and also doing social centres, which is basically squatting a building and then opening an info shop or running workshops in that space or like trying to use those spaces for community use, I guess, with very much a sort of lefty DIY aim. And then through that, it just started to get really on top. Like we had a squat in Kynaston Road in Stoke Newington and the police were so kind of furious with us that they literally dug up the street outside to disconnect our electricity and like came to the door with a battering ram and they were just, it just became really, really quite violent and mad and they kept arresting everybody. And yeah, it started to feel like diminishing returns. It was like we're spending more time fighting the state, the police. That doesn't sound too paranoid because honestly, that is what it is. And no time whatsoever in actually doing any actions or making any difference. So I sort of started to drift away from it at that point. And also, every time we were doing social centre stuff, I'd always be like, wouldn't it be really great if we just had some decks though? Should I just put some decks in here? I just wanted to like play music and people were like, don't be silly it's not about music. Yeah, but it'd be so nice though, wouldn't it? So yeah, I think I was always secretly trying to like join up those things. I mean, having said that, one of the reasons I kind of got into direct action in the first place was because there was this outfit in Brighton called SchNEWS, which was this sort of alternative news organisation and it had this listing called party and protest at the end. And there was very much a link at that time, I think through Reclaim the Streets and non-hierarchical organisations like that, that kind of link to the concepts of party and protest in people's minds. And so, yeah, I was definitely more there for the parties and the protest. But it took me a few years to sort of wind through that process, you know, lots of fun stuff happened on the way. Yeah, and then in the end, I think like how I got involved with Headfuk, that's a very good question, just through going to their parties. And then because I was doing social centre stuff, and I was also at that point living in a squat as well. And they had this really cool thing they used to do, and I think people still do, called Temporary Autonomous Art, where you squat a building and then you fill it full of art, basically. So you do a free, like an open access art installation and art show, turn it into a gallery, essentially. And they had been like really unexpectedly evicted, and they were like all literally homeless. And I had a van at that time. And I kind of like, I'll come and sort you out and like literally picked up all the art in my van and moved all of their house to where I was living, which is a place called City Road and in, yeah, in central London, which was a huge squat. And so yeah, Headfuk came and lived with me for a bit. I think that's how I sort of ended up becoming close. And then yeah, then I got together with Dave and that sort of side, yeah, carried on. So with Dave, you've got a project called TR-33N. Is it still running? It isn't, but I just really needed to do solo stuff. I think also we had a thing where we would almost take like every synthesizer we had out for the gigs. It became like very heavy in terms of physical plugging things in and troubleshooting things. And it all got a bit exhausting. I mean, if you've ever seen any photos of it, it's literally one of those huge Jasper synth racks, just absolutely covered with every conceivable kind of synth or sampler, like jammed on this thing down to like a compressor and like, you know, just everything we'd take with us. It was kind of mad. And so that was really amazing as a learning experience for me. But perhaps because Dave was so much more experienced than I was, I needed to do stuff on my own so that I could learn things because because he could always do stuff. I didn't need to do it. Do you know what I mean? So I think sometimes you have to step away if you feel that you're not learning enough. And since I've been working on my own, like obviously my knowledge level has just gone through the roof because I'm doing everything, troubleshooting everything, like taking responsibility for everything. And I think that can be quite helpful. Is that when you started getting into modular synthesis? Yes, absolutely. Because we were doing everything through hardware. A friend of ours in Bristol reached out. I called Ian, who is an amazing artist, actually, called Black Mass Plastics. He's really, really good. I'd also recommend anyone check out his stuff if you're listening to this. He just got into doing DIY modular synth stuff and we didn't know anything about it. And he went, oh, I want a project. I'm going to build you a drum machine. So our first thing was the Trine, which was this drum machine that Ian built us. And that was kind of the beginning of everything. I think that was like 2015. So, yeah, I've been working with modular for eight years. That would make it now. Yeah. And that was a sort of entry point in with this drum machine. And of course, once you've got something that needs modulation, then you need to make some modulation. So like, oh, I need to get a module to modulate this, you know? Yeah. And then I think the other bits we got were from Rick at Frequency Central, who swapped a load of modules for art with Dave. He does really cool glitch art. So we had this fun, like, exchange of pictures for modules. So for somebody who isn't necessarily, they may have heard of the term modular synthesis, but maybe they're not aware exactly what it is. Can you briefly explain how modular synthesis works and what attracts you to this particular medium? Yes. So modular synthesis basically is a continuous stream of electricity that you're working with. And that electricity is pumped through to an oscillator. And so that's constantly buzzing away. And so you've kind of just got this like, yeah, continuous stream of sound. And then you start adding modulation to that and sort of working on that sound. And you might add things to it or subtract things from it and kind of build it out. But essentially, that's kind of what I see as the key difference is you're using a thing that's already there and working with it rather than like starting from an empty place and having to fill it up. And for anybody who's interested in looking at how that might work, but who doesn't want to spend any money, which is very key, there's a fabulous free software called VCVRack.com. It's essentially an emulator or a virtual environment for modular synthesis. And it's really easy to set up. It's set up like a modular synth that's got this like empty rack as the interface. And then you just drag and drop the modules in and then you join them up with patch cables. The nice thing about modular synths as well is that because there's no fixed signal path or fixed architecture, you can just try anything. And so you get like completely crazy patches that you can't replicate or, you know, make the weirdest sounds. And it's quite chance based and sort of kind of magic, like you touch a tiny thing and it all just changes. It's quite exciting. So, yeah, and I found that really liberating because I'm not tremendously interested in music production. Yeah, I don't have Ableton. I don't really do that side of things. I'm much more interested in creating patches and creating sound that changes over time. Do you see it more as a sculptural process, then, more artistic in the sort of more traditional sense rather than music composition? I really do. Yeah. And I know that kind of sounds really airy-fairy, but I really do. Yeah, it's so different from music production. I mean, obviously, at the end, it kind of blends into it when you're exporting tracks and mixing them down and, you know, doing that bit. Sure. But the composition process isn't a music production process. And I think that's really, for me, that's really appealing. Let's talk a little bit about your discography. You're quite prolific. You maybe put out on average two albums a year or thereabouts. But the way that your sound has changed over time is quite particular. So your first album, which came out in 2019, I believe, called YSMYSMYSM, I think, had quite a lot of field recordings and processed sounds and samples in there. And then your new album, Volta, it's much more stripped back and focused less so on the improvised aspect of modular synthesis. It's more composed, I believe. So do you think you can run us through your trajectory as it developed over the last four or five years? Absolutely. So the very first album I did was setting up weird patches, recording them and then layering them on top of each other, or chopping them around a little bit. So doing these recordings and then just kind of, yeah, basically layering them up. And I didn't have a sequencer or any way to kind of make melodies or notes or anything. So when pitches change, I just had everything going through a vocoder and I just like push up and down the pitch bend to change the pitches and stuff like that. I was like making music against the odds, as it were. You know, I was like, I'm going to make this sound like music. And then kind of as I've got deeper into it, I've wanted to learn more about music theory, I guess, and sort of maybe more Western classical tradition or pop tradition, whatever. So, yeah, my interest has sort of been like, oh, yeah, what if I actually used a scale? And then the next step for Eurorack or modular synths is to get a module called a pseudo random thing. So basically it's firing off random voltages and then you have another module called a quantizer, which will then pull that into scales. And then maybe you might loop that. So it actually starts to have a pattern that would be repeating. And that is kind of a very logical thing to do in Eurorack and lots of people do it and it's really, really fun. But then I realized that what I was doing was basically waiting for like a day for a sequence of notes that I liked to happen and then go, oh, right, and having to stop and loop it. And so I was like, why don't I just get a sequencer and then I could write the music myself? So that's basically the progression is kind of going noise, sound frequencies. Oh, my goodness, this is so much fun. I love all this crackling and all this like texture. This is great. And then going, oh, but what if we added melodies? So then using this like Eurorack framework and then going, oh, but what if I could write the melodies? Oh, my God. So that's basically been the trajectory. And then in terms of like the sound world, as you say, I was starting with field recordings which were being processed by my modular synths in a granular processor and then just a very cheap oscillator, which was great. I had a base, like a sub and a normal, if that's the right word, output and then a choice of, I think, four waves. And then it had like a wave table thing. And that was the main sort of sound sources. And then as I've developed through, I've just naturally bought the odd thing. And so my synths have just got more maybe accurate or cleaner. And that first oscillator that I really, really loved, it turned out that like it wasn't tracking correctly at all. And when I put it up against kind of more expensive synths, it wasn't replicating the notes that I thought they were and stuff like that. So I had to phase that one out because it didn't stay in tune with the others and things like that. So, yeah, my kind of my sound has gone through phases of buying better quality stuff and trying to actually compose things. But I'm really aware that that's happened. And I haven't forgotten how much pleasure I got from the noisier, like more chaotic stuff. And I definitely don't want to never go back there. I want to reintegrate that at some point. But I'm just having a lot of fun with just the oscillators at the moment. And I do a thing live, actually, where I got an album called LDOLS that I released. It's my second album. There's this kind of vocal thing where I chop up the vocals using a module called a radio music and then put it through a granular synthesizer. And it kind of just brings back these really chopped and screwed, tiny little snippets of vocals. And I've kept that in my live set. I haven't been recording that and releasing it. But if you come and see me live, you'll still get a bit where I break down to beats and these really fucked up vocals. So, yeah, it's like I still want to honor that bit because it was really important to me and I don't want it to be lost. But I'm not currently wanting to necessarily record that stuff. It's like that's a live experience for me. So, yeah, come see me live if you want to hear the noisy bits. In the preamble text surrounding your latest album, Volta, there's a reference to cycles and loops. What is the thinking behind this record? The way I kind of visualize mentally all these sequences is add circles. So when you come to the end of one, you're starting it again. You could also then go backwards through that circle, but it's always going to, it's always going to join up again at the end because that's just the nature of how the machine works. If there's two sequences running at once, I would imagine one is a smaller circle like rotating, like touching the edge of the bigger one and like spinning around inside. I think it might be called hypocycloid. So I kind of visualize them as cycles. And then I'm just kind of really into the idea of cyclical time because it is actually natural time. So humans have sort of created this concept of linear time, I suppose, because we have a defined lifespan. And I guess we think of our birth as the beginning of our line and then our death is the end of it. But actually we're part of this much larger cyclical time, which has been going on for however many billion years planet's been here. And we've kind of just arrived in the last 200,000 years and like tried to impose this like linear thing onto a thing that's actually cyclical. And so we've lost connection with all the systems that we require to actually live on Earth peacefully, destroying the atmosphere, like destroying all the habitats. We're just going in with our tractors and you know, whatever it is, and just tearing everything to bits because we've got to like build structures and put lines everywhere. And yeah, it's like structures and lines versus like cycles of birth, death and decay. So I think through all of my work, I want to highlight that because I think it's quite fundamental to the reason why everything is so broken, is because we don't see that we're interconnected and we don't see that we're part of larger cycles that are bigger than us. We think that we are the main character and that everything's got to bend to our will and be like built. So yeah, that's that's for sure. And that's something that I'll probably talk about in all of my work forever because I really think about that. The track titles are quite interesting, quite conceptually loaded. I think I remember hearing or seeing something about you kind of writing things into notebooks and then applying these thoughts to the music as you compose it, you know, whenever it feels relevant. Is that the case still? Very much so. Yeah, for previous records, I almost didn't give anything titles at all. It would be untitled, you know, because I just wasn't in that kind of, I don't know, artistic frame of mind. And as I've composed more, I've thought, actually, I want to use the small space that you have to convey ideas. You know, you've got the sound, but you've also got the track title in a list. And like, it feels like that's a really great opportunity to to add a bit of poetry, a bit of mystery, you know, build out the ideas a bit. And so, yeah, I tend to, you're right, I tend to take a lot of notes. And I do have notebooks of track titles and like philosophical ideas and little bits of poetry. And then as I am composing, I'll just think essentially, is the track I'm working with right now, does that have a particular feel that any of these will work with? And it's quite nice when you get a match for a track and a title. Yeah, and I think also because like my themes are quite universal, it doesn't matter if the track titles don't like completely relate to each other in one coherent bundle. It's like those are all sort of things that I've read or thought that they're things that have been in the ether while I've been composing. So I'd also like to talk about your duo OULAN. So that's you on kind of a more of a reduced modular setup and Una Lee, who is a sound artist, but is also a writer, I believe, and is she's reading texts and you're synthesising her voice. And you've recently did a mini tour of Northern Ireland. Can you talk about how this project came together? And what's the thinking behind it? Yes, we were both Oram Award winners in 2020. So that's an award that goes to, I think, six people every year. And we live in a similar part of the country. So we both live in East Anglia. And so it sort of made sense for us to meet up. But it was during Covid, not the lockdown period, but the bits in between. So when we first met, I think we were like the opposite sides of the same room. You know, we both just both had our kits and we just made music like straight away. We've just sort of always done that every time we meet. We just do improv together. And that's been really useful and interesting and taken me lots of kind of cool directions. So, yeah, Una is a writer. She's got a fancy doctorate in composition. She knows her shit. And she chooses texts, either things that she's written or other texts that are not actually 100% sure where they come from. But they're very poetic and beautiful. It's great because I mean, I don't have to think about that side because I really, really enjoy processing voice, but I haven't found that I haven't much interesting to say. So it's nice when you've got someone who's like able to just whip out a huge book of amazing sound words. So, yeah, I sort of process her voice using a granular processor and just kind of other effects units that are quite common. And then in the later iteration, I've got a thing called an envelope follower, which tracks the soundwave envelope, that kind of ADSR envelope. And then also the beginning of each word or noise that she makes would then act as a trigger or a gate. So I've been able to make her voice far more integrated into the modular synthesizer this time, which is exciting. So when we went to Northern Ireland, she was literally controlling a drum machine, you know, controlling delay and a looper, you know, controlling it all in the modular synth. But then also the sounds she was making were also getting recorded, processed and fed back in. So it was like it created a really, really huge sound. And actually this time there was so much going on with the synth. I'm not sure she even did the text. I think she was just vocalizing and singing pitches and making, you know, staccato sounds and like all the kind of amazing array of vocals that she does. So that was really cool because I thought, oh, this is a text project. And then actually it's morphed into a pure kind of vocals project, which is really interesting. Yeah, it's developed so much over the last, I'm trying to think when it was. So if we did the thing in 2020, so we would have first met in July 21. So, yeah, it's been about two years that we've been improvising together and we don't talk about what we're going to do before. So it's quite fun. I just sort of go, oh, by the way, I've got this thing. And, you know, when you make a noise, it'll just change everything. Don't worry about it. You carry on and then she'll just kind of learn as we're doing it, what's happening and react and respond to it. Yeah, that's it's very responsive. Yeah, it's cool. I realize that you build your own modules. You're very much involved in thinking deeply about what hardware you're using and how. And you have a project called Atari Punk Girls. Can you talk a little bit about what that project is, how it started and if it's still a growing concern right now? It is a project that I started in I think it was 2018 and then the first workshop started happening in 2019. Yeah, because it was obviously quite a long planning bit. And essentially it was a project aimed at engaging girls and gender minority young people in building analog synths. Oh, my God. And then doing little performances as well. So we built little modules called Atari Punk consoles. I say they're modules, but they're nothing to do with modular synth modules. They're just standalone mini oscillators, basically. And then we kind of developed them on into a thing called a hex box, which got co-designed between myself and Tom Richards. And so because the first round of workshops, we'd sort of end up with this bundle of wires attached to a like a tiny eight-ohm speaker and a PCB and a couple of potentiometers, which are the dials. And it was kind of unplayable for people listening. Imagine I'm holding some spaghetti in my hands. It's not ergonomic. So I decided to move on from the Atari Punk console. And so we designed a little thing called a hex box, which was a more complex instrument. The downside of that was it was a bit too complex and actually it took quite a long time to build. And there was a lot of points of failure for young people when they're soldering. So on the technical side, that was definitely a whole learning journey. And then on the creative side, it was just loads and loads of fun, really. So learn to solder, which is quite exciting. And then kind of making noises that are really industrial and sort of unpleasant, essentially. And sort of going like, this is allowed. This is OK. You can play these things as loudly and horribly at me and it won't. Yeah, I'll be able to take it. It's OK. It was quite fun. I think like, you know, with kids not just going, no, you can't do that. Stop doing that. Stop making that noise. It's quite liberating to go make as much noise as you want. It's fine. Then we would do sort of little performances at the end of the workshop sessions. I think we did one where we all pretend to be mad scientists about a little story about like mad scientists labs. We had one where the young people decided to do a disastrous disco. So it was like just all these, we had like a little drum machine and it was just like loads of failing mental sounding oscillators and like totally like just syncopated drums and loads of like laser pens flashing around and just made a disastrous disco. And then the final one that we did was at Spill Festival in 2021, which was kind of a full scale thing with a massive sound system and hired like a guy to cover loads of lasers. And we basically had a rave run by 14 year old girls. It was absolutely brilliant. And they did like a funny like witchy ceremony. And, you know, I don't know, it was it was very like a teenage girl. It was fabulous. And yeah, so then that kind of wound down because obviously funding is what it is and projects have have a life, you know, and also I'd sort of been doing on and off for three years. I think 80 young people had been through, you know, had attended a workshop and learnt something and come away with an instrument or, you know, a chance to make some weird noises. And I felt like I'd done it enough. I think there's like some sort of adage about like, if you want to learn something, teach somebody else the best way to learn. So I definitely learnt like loads because I didn't know much about electronics when I went into that project at all. And I came out of it with a much greater understanding. Interestingly, I came out of it with the understanding that I don't actually need to design electronic instruments. I'm perfectly happy to build other people's or use other people's. But that I know that if I did have a great idea, then I would have an understanding of like who to speak to, to get that project to happen and to be made or, you know, run up a PCB or make a prototype or whatever. So yeah, I feel like I learnt loads out of it. And it was it was really, really great. Do you know if any of the young people that were involved initially in the project have carried on to create electronic music since? I don't know. I don't keep in touch. I mean, I don't really keep in touch partly from like a sort of not sure if it's quite like data protection... Maybe safeguarding? Yeah, I can't really contact them. But yeah, it'd be nice to think but I know that certainly they were kids. So even if they don't go and do music stuff, they were all like super creative. And I'm sure they would like keep keep the fire alive in some medium or other. It's about the idea of access, isn't it? Like you said earlier, you're allowed to make this noise and making it is just as valid as writing a song, you know. I saw an interview, I think it was based around the release of your previous album called Florescence, where you talk about being inspired by the nonverbal communication between a parent and a child, and the mimetic communication that happens with like facial expressions, and just kind of the non linguistic way or protolinguistic way of how you begin to understand each other. And you've also collaborated with your daughters on a project called Perception As A Mutual Embrace, which then, I think, developed into I Predict Myself, Therefore I Am. I want to kind of inquire about how that nonverbal relationship developed into a project that is about verbal communication, because you're using samples in a conversation between yourself and your daughters, I think you scripted something together. That's a really interesting question, because I don't, you're right, that the original idea is it's song before speech, isn't it? It's the idea that we wouldn't have language, unless we'd sung to our babies, and sung to each other. And that the earliest form of improvisation is the one that a caregiver has with their small person, because you're doing this thing where you're mirroring each other, and you're communicating through that way. So I think my feeling around that was just that that's the earliest music, the sort of most foundational musical skill that we have is like, so we're all secretly musicians kind of thing, because we actually learned how to communicate using the things that are now considered to be music. I'm trying to think how that project works. So yeah, the first one was perception is a mutual embrace. That I was thinking about science, that was a thing about cyclical time as well, actually. And I had the laser projectors in both of those, didn't I? That was kind of about me and my mom, I think, that first one. And I think people interpreted it that it was about my kids, but actually, it was about my mom. And then the second one was with the girls, because I got asked to do something by Pattern Club, which is this really cool organization that Alex McLean, he's an amazing kind of algorithmic musician, and he runs out, well, I think he's one of the originators of the algo rave movement. And he asked me to do Pattern Club. And so I was like, Okay, I've got to do a pattern based thing. And I wanted to have the girls in it because I wanted to continue this theme of like working with mothers and daughters. So I recorded us doing a pattern based project together. So we wove these like circles, cool, I think it's called circle weaving. And basically, you're kind of going in and out with wool and making patterns, because people always think of algorithms as being computer based stuff. But the most original algorithms is pattern design for textiles. That's one of the earliest kind of iterations of pattern making and algorithms, because it's just a set of instructions. And so yeah, kind of blended those things together. And then we did this sort of kind of almost like a live art piece where I'm creating patterns with the laser projector that are coming from a module that translates audio into an x y axis. So it looks like a oscilloscope, essentially what an oscilloscope would spit out. So you're essentially kind of visualising the sound waves. And then we were also doing this pattern weaving at the same time. Oh, yeah. And there's the laser thing. It looks like a circle. So it looks like the pattern weave that we were making. So I was trying to like bring those things together into the room because the girls weren't with me at that point. We recorded it all previously. And yeah, there's also a lot of YouTube in my work as well. And there was a bit of YouTube in that one, because I think we were watching a pattern tutorial, like how to do pattern weaving. And that pops up a lot. Yeah, I think like those sorts of projects are they yeah, they start out with maybe these kind of high minded ideals about like, you know, mimetics and improvisation, and then they just end up with like us recording ourselves doing things like making making some art with it.