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The podcast discusses the myth of absent black fathers. Both hosts, Tony and Eric, share their personal experiences of having present fathers. They question the stories and myths surrounding black fathers and wonder who is spreading them. They also discuss the changes in fatherhood over time, including the impact of drug use and incarceration. They highlight the importance of challenging negative narratives and acknowledge the domestic skills and involvement of black fathers. They suggest that there may be cultural aspects to consider and encourage more dialogue on the topic. Welcome to the latest edition of the UnHerd Gender Podcast. The podcast will begin with a series of discussions exploring the myths surrounding black fathers beginning with the absent father myth. My name is Tony Charles and I'm a family and systemic psychotherapist. And across the table from me I have... Eric Rodney, I'm a family support worker. And I take away both fathers as well. We are both fathers indeed, yes. Eric, what's your relationship to this idea of absent black fathers? It's an interesting one. It's not one that I subscribe to in relation to my own experience of being fathered. My dad was present until his last day. Oh, wow. I don't know what that looks like. I don't even know what that... I have no idea what that looks like, what that means. Yeah, so for me it's a big myth on a very personal level. I think that I understand the discussion around absence of black fathers, but I wonder if that actually is absence of fathers in general. Yeah, this is going to be an interesting discussion because we both, myself as well, my father, my uncles, my grandparents, my grandfather was quite present. So I get really interested and I wonder what are the stories out there, what are the myths out there regarding black fathers? It's a great question, Tony. I'll tell you one of the things I think about is the way in which history has changed. So growing up, I didn't know other fathers being absent per se. This wasn't a subject that we had as young men growing up. Everybody seemed to know their dad, even if their dad had remarried and their mom had remarried. So I think marriage was a big part of people being together and fathers being present. Maybe not always present in the fullest term of the word presence because of work and all these other things, and that's open to question about the relationships. But in terms of being there to offer advice, to play a part in raising us, it's a very new phenomenon. When I think about my childhood, most of my friends had their dads. Some had stepdads, but they had a dad that was present in the home. So men were very present in families. I think the difference today is that, and I think it's partly a working class thing where people are trying to manage budgets and stuff like this, so fatherhood looks a bit different now. There's a term that we have that's very popular, baby father, which I think adds to the mythology because people use the term baby father whether you live with that father or you don't. Some women use the term, but it's almost like if you say baby father now, that means you're not together. But in some parts of the Caribbean, it's still the person that you're with, if that makes sense. So it's a new concept for me. I think it's quite new. But the wider society seems to have gone around with it. Eric, you said so much there. You just reminded me of cultural stories of family, of fatherhood. What does it look like? It just reminded me of being brought up by an aunt that wasn't really my aunt or being brought up by an uncle that wasn't really my uncle. But those kind of cultural stories that get misinterpreted by if you function outside of the culture as well. There's something you said also about how black men, or this idea of your experience of black men doing fatherhood, this term absent father wasn't in your vocabulary when you were growing up. I mean, it's interesting because research shows that black fathers are more actively present in the child rearing process with their children more than other races. So it got me thinking about, I wonder who's spreading this idea or this story. Does it happen from within? Does it happen from outside? Because these stories, they become truth in a way. Yeah, they do. And it's a myth who measures them. So for example, I wonder how do we perceive ourselves or how do I perceive myself as a black father within the construct of today's construct of what fatherhood might be. I'm also a granddad, of which I'm incredibly present for. And I get commented on by friends and family, oh, you're a great granddad. I feel a little uncomfortable about it because I think it's my job. It's not a special job. I mean, it's a job. It's an incredibly rewarding job. But it's something that should just happen as a natural progression of my experience of becoming a dad and then becoming a grandfather. I get called a good dad from my daughter, who's now an adult. But again, I kind of think, why am I getting this quote? Because my dad didn't get that quote. My dad wasn't called a good dad. I call him a good dad based upon my relationship with him. But he wasn't especially given a label of a great dad. None of the men were, really, because they were just doing what they knew to do. They came here and they carried the job on that they'd seen back home and carried the job on. And somehow, in the translation between the early 50s and 60s to, I guess, the 80s, round about, you suddenly become, we're absent. Well, how did that happen? Where did we go? I don't know where we are. Where do we exist? I wonder if drug use has a part to play in that because our association with intoxication is very different today than it was several years ago. Eric, can you say a little bit more about that? Yeah, what I was kind of alluding to is, for example, I didn't know my grandparents because they were in the Caribbean. So now, my grandchildren know me because I live here and I was born here. But I know many men of my age that unfortunately take smoking crack or have lost their way. I say many. It's a small number, but it feels like a lot. But it feels like a lot because of the impact. And that's changed the landscape slightly in the presence of black men. Prison. We are in prison more than we were when our parents came to this country. We're in all sorts of difficulties and facing all sorts of challenges. Different challenges, because I think black fathers faced lots of challenges back in the day. But what they did was their home was sacrament. I said that the right way. But yeah, their home was everything. So they guarded that with their whole being, making sure to provide, to work. And the most you had was an alcoholic father, potentially. But you didn't know someone who was a crack user or a heroin user, which is a different dynamic to an alcohol user. Someone using lots of alcohol may still hold a job, may still come home and leave the wages on the desk, on the kitchen table as it was done traditionally. Now he's not coming home because he's in a crack house all night. And that rolls on. And so I wonder if that plays a part in the narrative of black fathers being absent. But there's lots of white men who are also drug addicts and stuff like that, that are absent. But we don't seem to have a subject or a dialogue around that. Yeah, well, we were talking earlier about, I mean, the other Tony was talking about watching the teddy boys and the mods fighting in the street. And in the past I've spoken about football hooligans and about how that's not framed as white-on-white crime. So I do wonder about the multi-complexities of the impact of being a black male within the UK and how, as a community, how, as individuals, we sit with that. And I'm not saying that is everything, because, once more, go back to the research, the data, that we're present, that we're involved more than our other racial counterparts. So it's... You just reminded me about this idea of being a black male within the UK and what has an impact on me, but also the many other stories perpetrated in the media, newspaper, TV, even within our own communities, that kind of, like, drag us down to make us start to question about, oh, am I a good father? You know, have I been a good father? You know, not needing to pat on the back, but, you know, something that I heard you say, that was just a norm, we were present. So how have these kind of stories, these ideas, had an impact on ourselves, on our community? You know, Tony, I think one of the things is the bad is the loudest. So if we emphasise something as being bad, it might be two people from one million, but the bad sounds louder than the good. I don't know why we have that scenario, but I think that's the phenomenon of life in general. It's like some of our young black kids today are interested in the negative icon in the community. Why is that? I'm not sure. It's open to lots of conjecture, you know what I mean? But there is this sort of scenario of hype in the very bad to the point where it becomes the narrative of the war. I don't know why we get to that point, but it's something I think is a struggle for us. And black fathers are madly domesticated. These are the kind of things, the kind of narratives that are not talked about. My dad could cook everything my mum could cook. My dad could wash every item of clothing that my mum could wash. He didn't do it often, because the reality is he spent more time out of the house working. So they had an agreed way of doing things. But there were times I came into my home, and my dad was cooking the dinner. There were times I came into my home and my dad had turned the washing machine on or stuffed the clothes in. I have an uncle who has five children, and there's always a story about how he was patting their hair and all this kind of stuff. I'm not aware of this level of intimacy amongst our other counterpart of fathers culturally. I'm not aware of it. Maybe it exists and I don't know much about it, but it's certainly not what we talk about, even amongst ourselves. It's kind of almost lost to some degree amongst us. So I think culturally there's possibly something for us as black fathers to think about that we may have lost or we are not pushing as a debate strongly enough because it can't all be about what they are doing, so to speak. You know, you just made me hungry there because you reminded me of like when did me cooking and doing all the things I do become not the norm? Because it's something that you see I've always done growing up with my... I always used to know who cooked in my house because my father put more spice than my mum so I could tell who cooked the food when I came home. So that was just... So therefore with that kind of blueprint of black maleness to my grandfather who was a fisherman who cooked mainly all the food in the household back in the Caribbean. So I wonder... Yeah, but you're right, these stories and maybe it says something about me where you see I don't talk about it because it's the norm. Why do I need to talk about what I've been brought up to do and it's part of my DNA but there's something about maybe I need to talk about that side of things more or promote that because you're right because what gets left in the public eye or as the norm is that we're a waste of time or we're not present for our children or we're incarcerated or, you know, the many other myths about black fathers. I wonder if there's almost a slight gap like in the tube line when they say mind the gap and I just wonder if that gap is us not continuing the narrative if not wholly physically but certainly in the spiritual sense, you know because what happens is if there's a gap someone fills it and I wonder if society has chosen... and I say society, we're talking about the Western society has chosen to fill it with that because they perhaps don't understand this domestication that we have whilst we can be quite fierce and strong and all those kind of things so there's almost a struggle for people to understand how these two things come together but for us it's normal. It's normal, my dad was powerful to me but yet he had the gentleness of putting on the faux pas and is that gentleness or is that powerful? You need food so it's pretty powerful you know what I mean? He's actually playing a part in ensuring that I have power not by words, not by any particular direction but eat well eat well and to understand that there will come a time when you need to feed yourself I've shown you that you can do it this is not a woman thing this is a you thing this is a survival thing this is how you're going to survive My mum took the same ideology about washing my clothes and being able to do everything I have fond memories of standing on a box to wash plates for the first time and thinking I don't really want to do this but I'm so glad she taught me I'm so glad she taught me I'm so glad my dad taught me how to cook too because they both played a part in doing those things so I was able to give birth You know now you're making me think I didn't really I didn't know about gendered roles until I came back to this country My parents sent me to the West Indies for maybe about three years to YUC they studied and changed their jobs in London but I remember coming back and in the West Indies there wasn't this idea of gender roles because we'd done everything but you just reminded me of coming back to the country and this, oh Tony why are you cooking? you're not supposed to cook why are you doing the washing? but you know that going back to that mind the gap or the gap being filled by someone else's narrative so how good are we I wonder what would need to happen Eric so we can start filling that gap Yes that's a great question and I guess really the easy answer for me would be education and where does education take place it takes place in school but obviously schools we have very little power in very little authority to have a debate with our children raised because they don't go to school by themselves they're with other coaches so there's a hierarchy of expectation what they must learn so I guess it's at home and then the sort of extended family set ups that we need to be celebrating the narrative more I think TV has a huge role to play but of course getting things on TV from plays to dramas to films it's a big deal but these are the mediums that children are drawn by so I know that some of the training we've done here was by a film maker maybe that needs to be one of our next conversations about so how do we creatively start to get the narrative thought about differently because I think a lot of people learn from films which doesn't feel very safe but at the same time if that's what we have that's what we have to work with because young black children young black men in particular are misrepresented partly because they don't understand themselves they don't know this history that you and I have and it's not a deep history we're talking a few years but the gap it's being filled how do we fill it with the right language the right knowledge Recently I've met a couple of black authors doing children books and just starting to just starting to come out with a number of books because I was wondering about who has in regards to media who has that power who's putting out all these ideas and myths and perceptions and of what a black male stroke father is I guess one area we can definitely see that the narrative is being pushed by I don't know what kind of filmmakers you call them but I guess popular films, pop films pop films as in pop culture like I can't name a film, Top Boy sure great work has gone into it I know there's lots of black actors in it and stuff like that, however for me, it doesn't represent me and it actually makes me incredibly sad that white audiences are holding this as a narrative of who I am when they see me of who my young brother is when they see him that's their narrative, Top Boy I've listened to white counterparts and friends I'll put into that mix because I have friends across the social spectrum I don't think Top Boy is the one for example, and I don't wish to dig that film out necessarily because someone's put a lot of work and effort into producing that movie and there is something in it to be talked about and thought about, however it's held up as the ideal it's held up as this is who we are and this is how we make money we're going to make it by these means and we'll only make it by these types of media productions so who's talking about how many young black men got a degree this year no one's going to write about that no one no one's going to make a film about that how many young black women got a degree this year no one's going to write about that but we'll hear about the boy who stabbed someone not that that shouldn't be reported because it's awful, but that's all will be reported about that cultural group that particular group and that's the gap that we talk I'm sort of referring to that gets filled with these different narratives there is a there are black violin players, there are black men in opera there are black, all these socially perceived good places to be, we're there but there's no one talking about that, it's boring to make a film about a black boy going to school but it's exciting to make a film about a black boy selling drugs well Eric, you're making me feel like because I know about I know about all the things you've just shared and spoken about but who's keeping a secret now you've got me thinking about, is this a strategy is this like you know, it goes back, I always talk about I always talk about Tarzan most of the time when you see I'm doing presentations and stuff like that I can see you laughing Eric but I imagine what's the impact of the lord of the jungle or the lord of the apes and the images in those early films I'm just wondering as things change, are we still getting like are we still getting these kind of films or narratives pushed but disguised in a different way? I think we are getting the same things for sure if we think about the film list over the last 30 years I'm not a great movie buff but they all tend to pander to the same thing which is about a white man being powerful of all, that's my perception, I don't think of the world like that because I think we're all tenants here every single man and woman is but a tenant you believe in and you believe in the keys it's as simple as that what you do between your tenancy time is up to you and it doesn't matter how powerful you become however it's the legacy that's the problem so I can't stay forever but I can do something to support the legacy that lasts for a lot longer than I last and at the moment the legacy is being contrived by others so much of our history so much of who we are is contrived by others but I don't seek to blame in that for me because I think we have responsibility I have a lot more power than my parents had but what do I do with it? my parents had to bow and curtail to make a way for me I'm extremely grateful but what am I doing with that? what am I doing with the legacy of my father like I just explained to you about what kind of father I had I think I'm doing ok with it but it goes beyond just me and my family that's what I have to understand now it's not just about me and my family it's actually my responsibility as a male role model would I want to be a model or not? it's irrelevant, my age says you are a model do you know what I mean? you need to do right you need to do well it's open to debate how well I do but if I'm a part of something that tries to re-address the narrative then I think I'm doing the right thing so such is this conversation we're having because I think a lot of black men probably could join this debate but feel so disenfranchised they think what's the point I'm not going to change anything but that's a lie because my mum changed something just by her journey here my dad changed something just by his journey here so I know it's a lie and who am I to deny the work that I have ahead of me I have to do my job it's not just to live and have fun it is, but along with that you have to leave something you can't just take, take, take, take and not leave nothing you have a big gap I like how you framed it about how your parents created opportunities for you there's something about being able to bow and deter, you probably used another word but there's something about how how I see your parents as quite powerful as parents as quite powerful making the journey by boat that took a number of weeks having to bow and tolerate and be patient and be tolerated because of the idea of what they wanted to create for their children and in a way they have created some kind of change and how are we able to continue creating ripples within this world that we live in there's something else also that was in my mind about we're talking about ideas within social media within TV, within films, within music within books, etc, etc I wonder about if that has an impact on us I wonder what it's like for the workers working with these fathers because it sounds like they've already got this narrative or idea about even, yeah about black men, about black fathers 100% and the thing is the knock-on effect of that is services service delivery and how that transmits to white workers working with black young men and working with black families as a whole we don't want to work in isolation we don't live in an isolated world the idea of separatism doesn't fit my mindset I just want my share and I want my kids to have my share or their share I don't want anyone to have more than what they should I want to address the balance and the thing is the balance at the moment says that we're at the bottom of stuff but we're all tenants I come back to my quote we're all tenants it doesn't matter how much money you have you're not going to have any more than what life has to give you me and you you just might wear a more expensive shirt but I shall wear a shirt you know what I mean? and we can go on and go on but I think this idea of being at the bottom brings a big challenge to young black men because it's very demasculating disempowering and that then adds to how they're perceived because if I'm angry in the words of Bob Marley an angry man is a hungry man and hunger is not just the food in my mouth it's also education, it's knowledge these kind of things so I can see myself beyond myself because at the moment what we have is a lot of young men you can talk to some young black men in the community as we do in our roles and they'll say this is how it is, there's no other way it's a lie but I understand why they believe the lie so how do we help them to understand that you are much more than this so we need to be celebrating our fathers more possibly you know what I mean? telling the story of their grandparents some of them don't know them some of them have met them but don't understand the journeys that their grandparents have actually made and maybe we're to blame for that because have I stated it clearly enough around me to say look, do you know what grandma went through to get here and blah blah blah it's not just about appreciating it but just also appreciating the power that exists within them because this is not all about responsibility, it's also about ability you know what I mean? so just something that I think that another discussion to be pushed with young men yeah it's personal responsibility family responsibility responsibility as individuals but also societal society's responsibility as well because you know yeah you know race, social constructs and this idea of less beings being less than you know I like that idea of tenants you know then there's some countries that I've lived in where I felt like a tenant and other countries I've lived in I felt more like a refugee so I wonder I wonder what needs to be what needs to happen to me so that I feel more like a tenant and that's when I engage with schools in regards to my children when I engage with professionals when I engage with my peers because sometimes depending on where I am in London I feel like a tenant and other times I feel like a refugee you know which is really interesting for me being a professional in a profession within a profession that talks about difference, that talks about social graces, how can I feel like a refugee at times and that's me an educated professional so I wonder what's it like for fathers that have less access to certain things to certain roles to certain ideas, voices alliances well I can imagine people being quite lost falling in the gap absolutely and the thing is that is the ultimate risk not just someone filling it for us or for people generally but it's actually falling in because once you fall in it you are lost basically or you're certainly injured or you're waiting for someone to pull you back up again because you can be pulled back up out the gap however who's going to do that if everybody's running and trying to jump on the train to avoid the gap, who's going to stop and say well hold on a minute, this guy needs to be pulled up again maybe it's these kind of discussions that equip us a little differently to perhaps be able to assist each other because I think that the greatest way to potentially assist the wider watching world is to how we present ourselves, you know when you were growing up you probably had the same thing as I mum would say about carry yourself well etc because people know and it's true, I think there is a degree of carry yourself well but maybe what that means needs to be looked at because young black men are very much into looking good and dressing well, nothing wrong with that so was our parents most fathers had their hat, their suits and the rest of it so we shouldn't deny ourselves that sense of expression but expression is beyond the physical it's the spiritual which I'm not talking about religion here I'm just talking about the spirituality of mankind being very very much subdued and I think our Africanism is something that we need to draw back to because we're being labelled by others and we need to be labelled by ourselves and then shouting that label to others someone asks you your name you tell them your name someone asks you who you are you pause there's a pause even if there's some words there's a kind of a pause it's very easy to say your name but why is it not so easy to say who you are is that because we don't really have a perception of who we are I don't have an answer here I'm just raising that as a topic of thought the self responsibility that you spoke about Eric can be a huge topic there's so many paths that we can go down but as you were talking about that it got me thinking about also as well as the self responsibility about how we talk about ourselves what we show, how we think what we promote on the other side the organisation or how does the organisation what do they need to do different so the practitioners, so the workers engage with black fathers or think about black fathers in a different way or take up a different position because that's another thing about workers live within an unfair society an unfair world they want to have an impact on how they make sense of us and that has an impact on the assessment process, how they engage the interactions etc indeed I was thinking what would you say to the organisation what I was thinking is there needs to be dialogue between black managers supervisors and senior management and organisations as a whole and why I say black managers and senior staff because you want to come from the top it's very difficult to push power up or push pressure up it's much easier to push pressure down so we have to change things at the top, how can we change things at the top it's creating dialogue and I think you can create change through love not through force I don't think we're going to do it through force certainly not in regards to services that we work in and the reason why I don't think it will be forced because it will be uncomfortable when people leave or just not take it on board whereas by love, what do I mean by that, I mean by accepting people's differences so rather than walking two chips on both shoulders accepting that someone thinks differently about me to me but then sharing my thoughts about me with those, also understanding why people have come to the narratives that they've come to it might be uncomfortable for me to go through that process or that experience however, if we come to the truth we have half a chance going forward so it's a debate that's not easy to have it's a conversation with people that's not easy to have you're asking professionals as well to bring themselves to the table it's very difficult people find it very difficult to be that open even I might find it difficult to be that open because I am holding some anger and some uncomfortable feelings that may raise themselves when we're having this conversation so I have to make a commitment to step back to my age because 30 years ago I probably would find it very difficult to have this conversation because I was running with too much rage and that's something that some young black men are running with but I don't excuse them from the rage I just say make use of it but we're talking about organisations here and organisations if we're too rageful they don't listen it is easier for someone to hear you the lower you speak rather than the louder you speak but when you're really angry it's very difficult to be quiet so getting a management between those two tensions and making it comfortable for someone to sit and have a conversation with me even if we're coming from opposing positions is kind of what I need to do so it's a bit like again a saying of mine the front room experience you bring them round you get your best china wrap you get that special cake that your mum's put away for ages for a special occasion why? because the conversation and the topic of discussion is that important so how do we set the scene? I think it's not just up to us young black fathers and black men in general to set the scene we have to play a part in setting the scene they need to sort it out we need to work with them to sort it out because it's our problem as well whilst we might not be the ones that brought this problem here put on the table it's something that we're living with so how are we going to have dialogue? and I think that if we try to work towards something that makes it comfortable for people to speak because there is a position whilst there's a position of discomfort in the conversation there's a position of comfort in the knowledge that we can have the conversation and that for me is where I want to see us moving towards yes interesting, when you were talking I went through an emotional process I was thinking about wanting to invite wanting to send out an invitation to have the conversation but at times because of the impact, the residue that's left on me sometimes I want to demand the conversation so I think I go from oh let's invite, no let's have this conversation and it's funny because age age does play a part of it because I don't know 20, 30 years ago I would have been swearing I wouldn't even engage in a conversation because it would just be wasting my time so there's something about what kind of context do we need to set what type of space do we need to set so people feel able to share their vulnerabilities, their ideas their beliefs so we can get that dialogue engage in a dialogue so we're able to share different narratives different stories so people are able even our counterparts where you see they're able to share their beliefs and ideas without being knocked over or being dismissed because I think it's important that we acknowledge that we live within a society that's built on quite negative narratives and ideas and stories about black men how we're able to acknowledge that share some of those stories or what's promoted that but also challenge in a way that people are able not to be comfortable to be able to sit with the uncomfortability in a better way I suppose and I'm just thinking as you were speaking there about Malcolm X the reason why I mention him only a very small reason is I remember watching something online a debate that he was having and with other scholars and what was really telling was how calm they were speaking about something so emotional like the height of the civil rights movement and that's kind of where I'd like to be to be able to have those really difficult conversations because actually intellect tends to be the way forward ultimately and what I mean and that's not to dismiss the battles that people have had and I mean physical battles that people have had and having to fight for their freedom so I'm not dismissing that, I could never dismiss that but I'm a bit of a fighter a bit of a radical but I also understand and appreciate that some of the most high power changes in this world have happened through debate they may have come to the table via fighting as we are at this table today as a result of oppression and all sorts of stuff this is why we're having this conversation we're thinking about the clients we serve and the young black men that we serve who are trying to move forward in life so that responsibility of managing my feelings managing their feelings because I'm not speaking for myself only here, that's the reality and sometimes that's a bit hard to do not wanting to be speaking for others but if you're in a position that you have to take the position that you're in and use the voice that you have within the position that you're in I think again, I think it's important to leave something, what am I going to leave I have a responsibility I can't just go what's the point when there is a dialogue to be had but if I'm screaming and shouting ain't no one listening to me they'll say yeah he's a passionate guy and he's really like right on but they didn't hear a word I said and that ain't going to help no one so trying to create that environment is the key, I don't know exactly what it looks like I have to confess but I know it's possible to do it because greater much greater people than me have done it and I've had these conversations about sensitive stuff. Yeah you've got me thinking about who should be at the table also so who in what who in these organisations need to be at the table to have this conversation, this idea of and how powerful are we, how much power can we create, who do we need to be speaking to, to implement to support, to sustain change because there's something about change taking place but also how do we sustain it and that's the frustration I suppose quite a lot of these conversations we can have but how does it create something that has some momentum create some change, not just for ourselves but our children and our children's children, you know you spoke about you being a grandfather, I wonder what needs to be in place, what conversations or who needs to be at the table today so your grandchild will benefit so your grandchildren will benefit. Many many thanks for listening please like, subscribe and comment, we are interested in your views, your positions your ideas or maybe you may inform future interviews and conversations but please do let us know what you think it would be quite valuable thank you you
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