World Convos ep1 - Coco edited

This podcast episode features Aaron, the founder of Force to Flee, an organization advocating for young refugees. Aaron discusses the importance of sharing refugee stories and changing the narrative around migration. Force to Flee also works with UN agencies and focuses on climate change and education for refugees. They engage young people through social media and encourage activism in any form. The goal is to empower young people to make a difference in the world. Welcome to the first episode of World Conversations 2024, the podcast where we uncover how young people are making change in big and small ways. Gen Z will be the generation to face global warming, overpopulation, climate migration, AI, and TikTok. Where do we begin? Well, we hope that hearing how some young people decided to take action will remind you of your own power to shape the world around you. Today we're joined by a truly inspiring person. Aaron is the founder of Force to Flee, an organization led by the youth advocating for young refugees worldwide. He is also a student in international relations at King's College London and enjoys going to the theatre. He plays pivotal roles at the Migration, Youth and Children Platform and the United Nations Association, the UK. Thank you for coming, Aaron. We're grateful to have you here. Thanks for having me. So Aaron, could you tell us a little bit more about your work at Force to Flee and how did all of this start? Sure. So Force to Flee is a non-profit organization founded in 2018 that is taking education and action for refugees in the UK and worldwide. We focus on education, advocacy and mobilizing action through capacity building and partnerships with young and youth led organizations, but also civil society as a whole. What is an aspect of the refugee crisis that you think young people truly don't know enough about? Oh, that's a great question. I think I don't think it's specific to young people, but I think populations in general don't know what it means to be a refugee because they feel very disconnected from the situation. And that's something that we try and change at Force to Flee by sharing specifically refugee stories, but also holding spaces where refugees can speak for themselves and hold their own because they're not given the platforms to do so. And young people, for example, colleagues of mine or peers of mine at university who have come from all different walks of life, don't understand what it means to have to pack up your bag and leave your home within 10 minutes and cross a continent and speak a new language and live a whole new life. And I think those sorts of stories often go unnoticed in refugee discourse and migrant discourse, especially the media doesn't tell you, oh, let me interview the refugee. They just talk about the refugee as if they're someone else, but they are human at the same time. They are just like us. And there are people in our universities and probably listen to this podcast who are also refugees as well. And they have stories. So I urge each and every one of you to talk to someone and find out their background, family history, because you never know who could be a refugee, could be the person sitting next to you as well. I think it's worth acknowledging that there are two sides to the migration debate. And there are people in the UK and other countries who don't want refugees to be given asylum or to stay in these countries for all the reasons that you've mentioned. And how do you or Forced to Flee more broadly respond to such anti-immigration or refugee attitudes? I think, personally, the way that the UK government and European governments at this rate are talking about immigrants is very dangerous, not only because it entices xenophobia, but it also is very problematic for multi-ethnic, multi-racial communities, such as the one in the UK. And it definitely creates a divide within host populations, which is not very helpful. So how we approach that situation in Forced to Flee, like I said from the beginning, is changing that narrative. It means to be a refugee, showing their story, educating them on the experience, the lived experience, the informed lived experience that they've gone through, so they can tell each other what it means to have to pack up your bags and go, or what it means to be a refugee living in Lancashire, living in London, for example, and how their world is completely different. And we can learn from each other, they can learn something from the person they're talking to, but also the person they're talking to from the host population can learn something from them. So changing that narrative is really important, which is something that I focused on at Forced to Flee. And personally, it's about taking action. So I've not been afraid to use my voice, I've not been afraid to talk to other people about my viewpoints, obviously where I'm allowed to do so, and have the space to do so, but I've taken to the streets and said that I don't agree with what's going on, and it's not done in my name. So I would urge everyone who has such a passion for whatever it may be, climate, labour, exploitation, human rights, don't be afraid to use your voice, because it's powerful, and governments can hear you. And what policy changes or improvements would Forced to Flee like to see in the UK to better address the needs of refugees? Our biggest one is climate change, in the sense that we've seen a deep intersection between the number of people forcibly displaced and the rising number of climate disasters around the world. So we want the recognition and protection of climate refugees, not only in the UK, but around the world. So we are hosting and forming the Climate Refugee Coalition, which is a group of organisations, people, young people, especially academics, whoever's interested, to work together to try and change that definition and make that policy change a reality in their home countries but around the world, and show a united front that people who are uprooted because of something that they didn't cause, like an earthquake or natural disaster, deserves the same rights to protection that every other refugee fleeing conflict, war, and violence and persecution needs because they are also fleeing because of no fault of their own. And every human has a story, and climate change is deeply affecting more and more populations across the world. So that's what we want to see in the UK, but also around the world. And the link to the Climate Refugee Coalition can be found in the description of our podcast. So do go check that out. Mentioning about impact, how does Force to Flee engage audiences who are perhaps not affected by the refugee crisis in their everyday life? So Force to Flee is, like I said, an advocacy platform. We mainly use social media as the tool to engage young people and people around the world on positive narratives towards migration and refugees, to try and change that perception that the media creates of refugees are taking jobs and are not beneficial to societies. So social media is definitely the platform we use, but also we hold spaces and conversations with other people to inspire conversation and action amongst others as well. I think one of the things Force to Flee does is to advise UN agencies in their work how impactful do you think this is part of Force to Flee has been? Yeah, so one of the things we do at Force to Flee is to work with UN agencies on youth engagement, but also on refugee advocacy. Force to Flee works very closely with the UNHCR, which is the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees or UN Refugee Agency here in the UK, but also globally for youth engagement, getting young people's priorities into their action plans, but also, like I said, on changing that narrative. So we've done World Refugee Day events here in the UK to help the local communities figure out what it means to be a refugee and also share their stories with them. And Force to Flee is also very proudly a UN Women, Women, Peace and Security and Humanitarian Action compact signatory, where we try and include women and girls at the forefront of our action plans as a vulnerable but also marginalized group in international affairs and give them a seat at the decision making table. And that's what we do at Force to Flee as well, working with young refugee women and girls through education and action. More specifically, how is Force to Flee actively working to make education more accessible for refugees? So Force to Flee is starting something called the Schools Program, where we work with schools across the country and we produce advocacy packs to help young children do what we do at Force to Flee, which is change the narrative. And we want refugee stories to be taken directly to young people and children, especially, who are going to be the future decision makers of our world. And we're really looking to work with universities and partners across the higher education sector to allow more refugees to be included in higher education, because 1% of displaced people globally are in higher education. So therefore, Force to Flee support wholeheartedly and we urge everyone to donate to UNHCR's commitment to get 15% of refugees in education by 2030 as well. It's amazing the range of people that Force to Flee is working with, from UN agencies to refugees themselves, both young and old. So our question is, how do you engage young people to become activists and make their voice heard? Because perhaps some people haven't been activists before or don't know which channels are there to express themselves on social media or in person. So how do you reach out to those young people? I mean, to get more young people involved, I would say join Force to Flee. We're always looking for people. But in general, join student communities, create a club, talk to each other about the issue. You don't necessarily have to be a self-identified activist. I don't call myself an activist. I just call myself a human who's just doing impactful work. I do advocacy and activism at the same time, but I don't think I'm on the same level as Greta Thunberg, for example, on climate change. So I would say you don't have to be a social media icon or figure in world politics to do activism. Anyone can do activism and that can start at your dining room table. Activism just means taking action, and that could be in whatever mean you want it to be through a conversation, through a donation, through a poster or a campaign or listening to this podcast right now. That's an amazing answer. Thank you. With the broad range of organizations that you work with, what's the biggest difference between working with professional human rights lawyers or figures at the UN versus working with very much grassroots level people, ordinary people, ordinary students like us? There's a great difference. And I can say I prefer the latter. So the people working or listening to this podcast probably because they're the people who actually want to do the work and they're not paid to do the work. That's an important distinction. Whereas UN officials, lawyers, bureaucrats are paid to do what they do. Mostly of them, most of them are passionate about what they're doing, which is great. And we're so honored and privileged to work with them, but also to help them in achieving their goals because they have the power to do so. But I think the power starts with the young people in the room or the grassroots organizations. And that's ultimately who we serve. We don't serve any institutional organization. We serve the refugee community and migrant communities in different countries across the world. And that's what keeps me grounded. It keeps me doing what I do. And in our differing approaches, you have to have a different persona with each of them. People at the UN level want different things from you. They want your ideas. They want a collective voice. They want a plan of action. And then on the local level and on the grassroots level, they want you to make them feel heard. They want to be empowered. And we want to empower them. So that's how we differ on our approaches between the two levels of the people we work with. So that's a key difference between young people and these professional human rights activists who want concrete plans, step-by-step agendas. In the real world, in terms of changing the conditions and livelihoods of refugees, what do you think is more important? Can one happen without the other? Absolutely not. We need people who are willing to spend their time and organize and work with the people who often don't have a voice to allow for concrete action steps and plans at the national or international or regional level, whatever that may be. And also, sub-point and side-point, we deserve to be paid as well for our young people do so much advocacy and activism for free for these top institutions. And then they're not given any compensation for their time. So that's a side-point. I'm getting sidetracked. But you definitely need both of them to work hand-in-hand with each other because you need the voices of the people in those decision-making spaces. And that's what organizations that I work with and work for do. But also, we want to empower you to make sure that your voices are heard as well. There's definitely been a trend in the last few years, the last few decades of a lot of young people going straight into work rather than going to university, be that for financial reasons or because, like you, they feel that they have a greater impact or learn more by going straight into jobs or volunteering roles outside of the education system. So what's your view on going to university? Do you think it's useful? Should you do it? Are you better if you do it? Or can you do it without it? I think it's a personal preference, to be honest. I think the reason why I went to university is because I really wanted to study international relations and kind of get the academic insight behind it. But I also wanted to make a whole new set of friends, which I've done, which is great. So I'm here more for the social aspect and the things and opportunities that university provides in that sense. But if I could do university again, I wouldn't pick the degree I'm doing in the sense that I think because I'm sort of practicing a certain sector of my degree in my everyday life, I would do something that is of another interest to me, for example, law or history, where I could just gain new skills and just new information. But I think everything is different and some people don't want to study, some people want to make an impact, and I think that's a great thing to do. But if you want to go to university, get a degree, you'll also come out with a great qualification from a great institution and you're very highly respected and it gives you a whole different skill set from working since the age of 18 or from whenever you leave school. So I think it's a personal preference for me. I think it's worked out really well and you can do things on the side of university if you come. Likewise, you can study if you're still not in university. You can take online courses and stuff like that. So you can always study and work at the same time if you want to. How do you manage your time between fourth to three and uni? That's a great question. And honestly, time management is something that I've got used to since, like I said, since I was 14, I've been doing fourth to three. So I've had to always balance studies with something else on the side. So I've kind of got used to it and it's become my every day. And the best technique that I use is my calendar app. It has my whole life in one thing. So I know like almost hour by hour what I'm going to be doing. So it really helps me to keep track. But I also schedule time for myself to make sure that I can spend time with friends and the people I care about. But mistakes happen and time management is really difficult. Like this podcast was meant to be recorded two hours ago, but I got my timings messed up. So I'm here right now. But it's something you get used to over time and it's something that it's a skill. I think it's a great skill to have. But you prioritize and you do the work that impacts you the most. For example, my university degree has kind of taken a step back since I've joined a university because I don't feel like I'm making an impact compared to forcibly or at UNMGCY or at UNHCR. I do more of my work there and I spend more time and focusing on that because but still finish your degree. So I still have to do my essays at the same time. How would you say your uni education have changed some thoughts on your project and how would you like see them to be helpful for your project? Yeah, that's a great question. I think university has taught me a lot on different countries, such as studying international relations and then working at the international level is a very useful thing to have. Whilst I don't enjoy my degree, the theoretical sides and the endless essays on things that aren't going to really make a difference. But it does help when I'm doing, for example, trying to learn more about Chinese foreign policy and then the next day I'm giving an interview and giving an intervention in front of Chinese diplomats. Then I can have an understanding of what their viewpoint or what their history or what their trajectory is. And it also has allowed me to have a diverse set of perspectives, which I think is very, very useful. I've never learned and I've grown up in the UK my whole life. I've done the British education system. We never learned about Africa, Latin America, Asia Pacific, Oceania. Whereas finally at university, I get to do some of that whilst always not through the best lens. I do get to learn about those perspectives, which are definitely very useful for the work I'm doing in terms of my university degree, changing my project approach. I think it's allowed me to understand how to engage university students and university communities. For example, working last year as part of the Student Action for Refugees group at my university, I knew, OK, this is what young people at university want to hear more about. And that's something that I took forward. We did a conference with all the stars in London on detention in the UK. And at the global level, in my position as alternatives detention specialist, I organized the first UN youth consultation on ending child immigration detention because I knew that was something that people were interested in both at university, but also diplomats at the global level as well. Arian, it sounds like you really place a lot of emphasis on the importance of talking to people, just talking to people from places that you are not from, talking to people who perhaps are refugees about their stories. Something that I've been learning about in econ history, which doesn't sound super relevant to the migration crisis, but perhaps this is, is that you tend to stick within your social socioeconomic circles. For example, people marry a lot of people that come from the same backgrounds as them. If you go to a certain university, you will mix with people from similar financial backgrounds who can afford that university. The list goes on. So is that changing? And how, what advice would you give to people to find and speak with people who are not from the same places as they are? Yeah, I definitely think that's changing. I mean, in this room, I'm sat with someone who's not from the UK, someone who's from China. So I'm sat with people who aren't a British Indian. So it's a very diverse group of people. And I would say that is changing and it's changing with the young people. And I think university is a great example of how multi-racial and multi-ethnic communities come together. In terms of financial backgrounds, I think that's also changing because people, when you come to university, don't see the money that you have unless it's on the clothing that you wear. So people can interact with everyone and just see each other as a friend, as a human being as well. And I think that's something that I've taken. I'm often the youngest person in a room. I'm often mostly going to be excluded in the room because of how I look or my facial, my skin colour. And but I would say, don't be afraid to feel uncomfortable. In fact, feel uncomfortable. I think the deputy director general of the IOM said to a group of us just last week that being we don't want you, you don't want to go to a space and feel comfortable because then you feel part of that of that community. You want to be there and you want to feel uncomfortable so you can disrupt. So you can bring a new perspective. You can bring a new energy. So always talk to new people, always interact with people that you don't normally interact with because you can you never know something you could change as a result of that. To people who perhaps are insecure speaking in front of big audiences or generally perhaps hold themselves back for reasons such as like being physically insecure. I think you have a weird voice thinking that you won't be taken seriously because of the way that people perceive you. What advice would you give to them? How do you get over that? That's a great question. And it's something that I struggled with myself. I hate public speaking. I can say that from the bottom of my heart. That's something that I do not enjoy. I much prefer the backroom conversations, the backdoor negotiations and the action that happens behind it. I don't really care about giving speeches or the attention that it brings. And I would say in that circumstance, practice, practice with other people. And it can start with someone approaching someone that you don't really normally talk to. That's how you kind of get out of your comfort zone. Do something that makes you feel uncomfortable, whether it's trying something new, joining a new society, making a new friend, attending a new class. Like I can't do art, but doing art would like stress me out, but also be something that I'm learning at the same time. And I could develop a new skill. And the same thing I would say is for public speaking from someone who doesn't like public speaking to someone who then sits in the UN building in New York and has given a speech in front of presidents. But I think I came. I'm very proud of the journey that I did. And how I did it is I stood in front of a mirror for about an hour and a half trying to rehearse every minute of that speech and just said it as if I was talking to me. And I practiced it with a friend on the plane. So that's what I mean. Talk to new people, get out of your comfort zone and try something new and don't be afraid to do so. And if it's too scary, it's completely fine. There's other people who will support you and will be there for you on that journey as well. How long was the speech? And how did it go? I think the speech overall was about four minutes, which is not very long at all. I think it went well. I hope I don't. I don't really know. But I could whilst I was speaking, it was the most nerve wracking moment of my life because I could feel my body like shrivel up and I was rapidly shaking. But I think it was it was a great experience. And that's really improved my public speaking skills. And I feel a lot more confident as a little bit. Hence why I'm kind of used to doing things like this right now, because it's something nice and it's something less intense than that was, which is really, really fun. So once you've done it once, it means that you're a lot more confident the next time around. Yeah, the description of being shriveled up in front of presidents doesn't sound great, but I guess the satisfaction after it truly is amazing. Last but not least, do you have any advice that you want to give or encourage any young person that wants to start a nonprofit or activist organization? I have two bits of advice. One is just go ahead and do it. Don't be afraid. And whether it's you, it forced me for about two and a half years was me and my iPhone and my laptop posting on Instagram. It was not an organization. It was just me sat in my bed being bored, but really interested and passionate about my topic. So don't be afraid to do it. Even if no one's listening to you or no one's out there, you'll find people, you'll connect with people, you'll talk to people and they'll be interested in your and what you have to say. So, yeah, just take action. And the second thing is find your why. And what I mean by that is find the reason why you're doing something. Why did I spend six plus years now working on refugee rights issues? Because my family comes from that background. My grandma told me at the dinner table about our family's history that I had never known before. And that really inspired me. That was my why. And I know that's why I keep doing what I'm doing. And your why could come from anything. It could come from trying something new. It could come from a conversation with a friend. It could come from a life or lived experience that you've had. So that will keep you passionate. It will keep you grounded in what you're doing and also inspire you to take action in the future. So find your why and then just do it. Those are great answers. And it's so true. Like with social media these days, someone's voice can feel like a drop in the ocean. But your advice is to do it anyway, because at least it will connect you with like-minded people. And even if you don't reach the whole world, that's not the point. You're at least reaching a small group of people. And that's something. What has been the most challenging part of working with Forced to Fleece since you started in 2018? I think the most challenging thing we faced is definitely not being taken seriously. Young people often feel that their voices are excluded in decision-making spaces, that people don't really understand what we have to say because we're not experienced or we don't have the technical expertise that people are looking for. But young people actually have a lot to offer in the sense that they can provide a unique perspective on world problems. But also they are not only the future, but they are present here today. And that means they can take action in their local communities in the ways that are meaningful, impactful, and can impact the people that really need the help that they deserve. That's it. So has that been a challenge that Forced to Fleece has had to face since starting? And how do you overcome that? Definitely been a challenge. Public perception towards refugees and migrants has fluctuated drastically over our existing four, five, six years now, which is kind of crazy. And that has meant that we've had to deal with new challenges here in the UK. For example, we've had three immigration acts passed in the period of five years, which is kind of crazy. But that also means with each one, a new hot topic comes onto the table. So how we deal with that is we mobilise communities, we change that narrative and we take action, whether that's through protests, whether that's through policy proposals, whether that's through conversations like this. So more young people and more people in general can hear about the stories that refugees want to be heard, and that we can change and make a creative, a positive narrative towards refugees in their local communities and afford them the right to seek asylum, which is a human right in international law and across the world. My final question would be, what has been the biggest change about you personally from 2018 to 2024? I think my biggest change is my outlook on how things are, in the sense that in 2018, when I created Falsafi, I was reading the news. It had just come from what they called the European refugee crisis, where everyone was coming from Syria. And that was a really depressing time for refugee and migrant rights issues. People were just like, oh, this is just going to get worse and worse and worse. And the numbers had slowed and everything was just not so great in the space. And I came to Falsafi with that negative attitude, or just negative perception, not negative attitude, negative perspective, where I thought, yeah, these people really need our help. Or their voices really need to be heard. But we feel helpless. Whereas in 2024, having spoken to so many young people, interacted with so many different stakeholders and people, and sitting in this room right now, I can see people who actually want to make a difference and want to do something for their communities. And I've gone from that negative perception of where we're going in the future to one of positivity. As we look forward to future summits and conferences and organizations, that's not what matters. What matters is the conversations that I'm having with people. For me, they're a lot more optimistic. They're a lot more inspiring. The backdrop of the world right now, with everything going on in Gaza, with everything going on in Ukraine, the horrible atrocities that are also happening around the world. There's a lot to be negative about. But young people still remain hopeful. They're still taking action. They're still talking to each other about what we could do together in the future. And that's what's really inspiring to me. And I will keep working with each and every one who really wants to. So if you want, please do connect with me. Please do send me a message on LinkedIn, on Instagram. And I'll be happy to see what we can do together. That is a really hopeful note to end on. And for anyone listening to this podcast who is interested in reaching out to Forced to Flee, please follow them on Instagram. Their link is in the description. And have a look at the campaigns and initiatives they're starting. It's going to be great to follow them on their journey in the next few years. So to wrap up, thanks to Arian so much for coming onto the podcast and sharing a bit about his personal journey, challenges that he has overcome in the last few years. We have been truly inspired. To our listeners, thank you for joining us. Stay tuned for more exciting discussions with other young people who are making a difference in their own way. Until next time. Bye.