The Dragons Lair with David Buttress

The Dragon's Lair podcast discusses the recent open letter from the Joint Supporters Group to the new WRU CEO, Abby Tierney. The letter raised concerns about funding for the Dragons RFC and claimed they received 10 million in additional funds. However, the Dragons supporters club later distanced themselves from this claim. Dragons RFC Chairman, David Buttress, expressed his disappointment with the letter and emphasized the need for unity and collaboration within Welsh rugby. He stated that the Dragons have been focused on rebuilding the club and should be given a chance to do so. He also mentioned that he does not recognize the 10 million figure and that their main focus has been on addressing the current financial challenges. Overall, he urged everyone to work together and move forward for the future of the game. Welcome to the Dragon's Lair. Hello and welcome to the Dragon's Lair podcast, your home all things Dragons, RFC and rugby in the region. I'm Jamie and joining me as always is Gavin Thomas. How are we doing, Gav? I'm very well, Jamie, very well. It's a Christmas where no rugby was played and no results happened whatsoever apart from beating Scarlets. Yes, Dragons unbeaten in 2024. Absolutely. Happy New Year, by the way. Did you have a good festive period? Yeah, I did. It was very good. Brilliant. OK, and just a reminder that you can find us on platforms such as Apple Podcasts, Spotify and the Sports Social Network. And if you like what we do, please rate us and leave us a good review as it all helps to grow the pod. So, Gav, this week's podcast is a special one. So this is going to be a supporters Q&A and we have a very special guest to help us do that. It's Dragons RFC chairman, David Buttress. David, happy New Year. Thank you. Very happy New Year to you both. How was your festive period? All good, I hope? Very busy. We work with four kids. Very busy. And one kid's worked out there's no such thing as Father Christmas now. Can I say that on the pod? The kids listen? I don't know. Not maybe. You should be OK. So it was absolutely, and the pain of death was told not to tell the other kids or ruin it. It was good, mate. Good with the family. Boxing Day was one not to remember. But New Year's Day, I guess, was made up for a little bit. But yeah, I hope you both well and hope you both have a great one as well. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for joining us. We really appreciate it. We know you're a busy guy and you've got a hectic schedule, so we do appreciate you joining us on the pod tonight to answer some supporters questions. And we've had a lot of them, it's fair to say. We've had a big response. But before we go into the listeners questions, David, I just want to know, is it OK to ask you about what happened this week with the Joint Supporters Group letter? Can we touch on that? Yeah, man, you can ask me anything. Of course. Yeah, sure. Brilliant. OK. So the Joint Supporters Group company wrote an open letter to the new WRU CEO, Abbie Tierney, this week. So they outlined four points that they wanted to address. The first is regarding the COVID business interruption loan scheme. The second was regarding funding for the pro game. The third was WRU funding. And then we get to the fourth point. And this is what causes a bit of a stir. On point four, they are claiming that the Dragons received 10 million of additional funds whilst owned by the WRU between 2017 and 2023. And they want an explanation of how this was allowed to happen. And then the next day we saw a statement from the Dragons supporters club. They put out a statement saying in light of a misunderstanding and some additional information, that the OSC would like to publicly distance themselves from point four of the letter to Abbie Tierney. David, can you just touch on that, please? What was your reaction to that point four? And what's this all about? Yeah, it's probably three things to me. One was, I thought, I think we'll step back from the letter quickly. I think we've got the joint supporters club have done a great group, have done a great job. And people who passionately care about the game and our teams, they'd be absolutely applauded and appreciated. And they are. I have to say, I don't know where part of that letter come from in terms of point four. I suspect I could have a good guess, but I suspect it didn't just come from supporters. And I think that's the bit that disappointed me the most, because we did a deal last summer. And the whole premise of that deal was we were going to move forward together as four teams and the Welsh Rugby Union. We were going to look to rebuild the finances of the game post-Covid. We wanted four successful teams. And part of that deal was the Dragons winning at private hands. And when I saw that point four, I can't tell you how angry and disappointed I was. And for three reasons. One was, firstly, what a thing to send to Abbie Tierney on day one in the job. And to simultaneously send it to her at the same time as leaking it to the press. If that's how we honestly think we're going to win Friends and Influence, a new CEO, I can tell you as a former CEO, that's not the way to do it. I don't know. I don't know what Abbie thought. I haven't spoken to her, but I could probably have a good guess if it was me. I'd be pretty disappointed. And I think Abbie is clearly a smart, capable person. I think she wouldn't take it too long to find out and work out where that's come from. It was such a loaded point, clearly pointed at attacking the Dragons. And I just think it's unnecessary. And I'll tell you why. Firstly, I don't recognise the number. That's the first thing to say. And the second thing is. If we're honestly going to spend our time now as a PRB and as a Welsh Rugby Union, as owners of four teams, trying to dig each other out and work out, you know, the last six years retrospective naval gaze and about who's had what. And because, frankly, you know, the funding model hasn't been equal either. So if we're going to have a discussion about how the game's been funded the last 10 years and we want to spend our energy and time on a retrospective analysis, well, let's pull all the numbers out and publish them because I can put a table out on Twitter that will show that the Dragons was the least funded team for the last decade by millions and millions of pounds, probably more than 10 million if you compare the most funded team to the Dragons. So let's not do that. It's a waste of time. We all understand the funding model we were in. All four teams, sorry, all three teams outside the union voted for the Dragons to be rescued and bought when it went into insult or potential insolvency. They all consented to it every year since I've been in PRB. Each business plan has been signed off. We've all had full visibility of each other's numbers, including the WIUs. So let's not let's not do that. So I don't want to spend time other than giving you that context, because I just thought it was a really clumsy thing to do. I understand that people are feeling under pressure financially. People are feeling that, you know, the pro game needs more funding. Everyone's under pressure financially. I get it. I got to say that I completely empathise and sympathise with the financial pressures that exist within the game at the club level. It's really tough, but this is not the way to go about it. It really isn't neither at the substance level nor the style level. And I would I would just say one other thing, which is please come on now. Can we let's accept we've got this challenge, which is the finances of the professional game in Welsh rugby. Let's accept we're all here to make it better. We've kept our word and take the club private. No one else was buying rugby clubs last year. In fact, they were closing. You know, we kept our word and took the Dragons back. So give us a bloody chance. You know, we were two minutes into the door. The guys have come in like David Wright, myself and Ho Young, you know, with good intent. We're trying to rebuild the club. Let's not take pot shots at each other like that publicly or through the back door on Twitter. Let's give each other a good go and try and grow the game and show Welsh government and show our supporters and show sponsors and show the Welsh Rugby Union that we're here to build a game for the future. Let's not spend time on the stuff from the past because it's been and gone. It's been and gone. And I don't know any good business which spends its time burning its energy in the past. And if there's things that need to be shared, by all means, let's have that information in PRB. And by all means scrutinise and look at the numbers and ask questions. But let's do it the right way. Let's not let's not try and do it this backhanded way. It was it was just poor. It's just poor in my opinion. And so and so for me, that's not as blunt as I can be. OK, so just to confirm that that figure of £10 million, you don't recognise that? That's incorrect, is it? The £10 million, I don't I don't understand how they've got that number. And, you know, we when we bought the club, we did a net assets, a net asset transaction, which was, and without boring people, that is the liabilities of the club, which included the Covid loan plus the value of the assets at home, which is the things like the stadium. And that's how we bought the club. So, you know, at no point in our net assets deal. Yes, genuinely, I don't recognise the number, but equally, I haven't spent, I haven't spent hours digesting the last six years of retrospective accounts either. You know, I really haven't. And, you know, and frankly, we had to add some substance to that statement. You know, we had a £2 million, just under £1.9 million, £2 million hole to fill at the Dragons in the year that we're in now, the twenty three, twenty four season. I can promise you that's taken up 90% of our time and energy. And that's where, you know, looking at 2017, 18, 2019, 2020 accounts is sincerely not taken up any of my time. And so when I saw it, I sort of thought I'm not quite sure they've got this number, where that number's come from. But equally, I haven't spent time digging into it either. OK, well, thank you for that, David. Thank you for shedding some light on that. It did seem a little bit strange and it does make you wonder, can everyone in Welsh rugby work together at some point, doesn't it? You know, are we ever going to have that unity that we keep talking about? Well, I think we've got it from some really good people now. Malcolm Wall, I think he wants it. You know, Abby clearly said she wants it. The new chair, Richard, has said he wants it. I think us as an ownership of the Dragons, we 100% want it. We, you know, we will absolutely work together with everyone because we want to grow the game. We need more sponsors. We need more supporters. We need the women's game to grow. We need the men's game to grow. We need to deal with our Covid loans. They're the four or five topics we need to focus on. Nothing else. And when we've got those four or five topics nailed and growing and throwing off money and women's game trucking along, the men's game stabilising, growing and being successful, and we've got, you know, we've got teams competitive in the URC. I would be more than delighted then to navel gaze over the 2018, 2019, 2020 year comes. But, you know, until we've got that bit nailed, I really don't want to spend that much more time or energy on it. OK, thank you for that, David. Appreciate that. Right. Shall we delve into the listeners' questions? And I'm afraid, David, we do have to talk about that Boxing Day shambles at Cardiff Arms Park. I mean, never mind the nightmare on Elm Street. This was a nightmare on Westgate Street, wasn't it? It was absolutely horrific. I haven't heard that. I haven't seen that. I'm quite proud of myself for that one. I did write that one. Did you write that one? I should write for Wales Online, shouldn't I? You're too capable to do that. You can just clear me out of the job, to be honest. Right. OK, let's get straight into the question. So this is a question from Nathan Dark. And he says this. After the embarrassing nature of our showing against Cardiff on Boxing Day, it was clear that something was going to be there. Doug Flanagan mentioned escalating some proposed changes. Can you discuss this in more detail? So I think the exact phrase that Doug said, he was going to fast track some changes that were already going to happen. But after that performance in Cardiff, which you have to admit was completely unacceptable and highly embarrassing. What exactly can we expect? What are these changes that you're going to fast track? I think Dai was very honest after the game. I think coaches and players know, and we all know, it was none of us were expecting that. We've always been very competitive. The derbies have always been tight. Arguably, we should have won a few of the more recent ones. We all know we haven't had a great record against Cardiff recently, and we were all desperate to put it right. In some games, perhaps we've been almost too desperate to put it right. But you compare our results against Scarletts and Ospreys, for example, in recent times. We've been relatively successful, I'd say, in terms of win-loss. So yeah, it was one of those days at the office that I don't think any of us will forget in a hurry. It was a tough one, but we stick together, right? We've got to, we have to. We know it's tough. We weren't expecting that, is the truth, obviously. You've got to give a bit of credit to Cardiff. I think Cardiff have approached the season well, and I thought they played well. I've watched them a few times this year, so I give credit to Cardiff for the first half. That's not to take away the fact that we obviously didn't play how we were expecting to play. So yeah, everyone was gutted. There's no getting away from it. Honestly, it was the worst trip home I've had from a game, genuinely. Boxing Day night was pretty gloomy in my death. But like everything, you have to turn things into a positive. Myself, David Flanagan, Ho Young, David Wright had a meeting in the week between Christmas and New Year to wash it up. I think what Dai alluded to was something we all felt, which is that we've got to make changes. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. So we already had plans in place for stuff we wanted to do this summer, building into 24 and 25. Dai's plans, and Dai's obviously a young, innovative coach, and had lots of ideas and players, and how he's thinking about trying to develop the on-field stuff. And we said the one positive that could come out of an outcome or result like that is that we take faster decisions. Because if we add instincts around certain things we could improve or change, well, it's almost a validation of the fact, OK, well, let's do it then. Because none of us are in the game to lose. None of us are here to lose. We want the club to be winning. So I think what I'd say to you is that that accelerated and gave us conviction around, OK, let's be bold then. And let's make some decisions. And without giving the specifics when I talk about individuals, because I would never be right, or especially about players we'd potentially, we'd hope to bring in, or in areas we'd hope to bring in, you know, I think, you know, it definitely radicalised our opinion. And it gave us a strong passion and appetite to try and make some changes so that we can be, so we can, I guess, get to where we want to get to quicker. And what we didn't want to do is have an outcome like that and then think, oh, we can make a few tweaks. We just feel like not the one game or one result should ever dictate, you know, the long term, because we all know that any given Sunday, you can have a, you know, any given Saturday, even, you can have a bad day at the office. But for us, it was, if I can be really blunt, it was more of a pattern that where we felt that, you know, we have some good results and then that can happen. And we want to break that habit and get to a more stable place. And I think to do that, David Flanagan has some really clear ideas about what that looks like. And I think it's our job as owners to support him and back him and to do that. And so that's what we're working through together as a team. Of course, we'd love to be able to do more and that's financially to support David, but we'll do as much as we can while keeping the club stable financially. And hopefully, supporters will see that play out over the coming weeks and months in the various announcements that obviously will go alongside those changes that we're making in the background now. But obviously, at the moment, they're in the background. You guys wouldn't be aware of them. And frankly, neither should you be at this point. But over the coming weeks and months, you'll see that play out through, obviously, the club statements. Was there an element as well, though, that the Scarlets came directly after it, where Dye has made quite a few changes and a younger-looking team and some of the big internationals being dropped as well? Is that part of that reaction as well? Is that something that David's trying to do and trying to bring through in the club? Yeah, as David said, really, he's got a lot of confidence in the young talent in the club. And that probably accelerated, like he said, around the Scarlets game. That accelerated some of those decisions for him, bluntly. And David was extremely honest in the press. And that's what he said. And that's what he was saying to us as well. I think that's what he said to the players. So David's been very consistent around that. And we were highly supportive of it because we believe in David. We believe in what he's doing and trying to do. And I guess as a supporter myself, I speak as a supporter, not the chairman, I was quite excited to see some of the young guys come in. And let's see what they've got. We believe in our youth. We believe in our Gwent pathway. We think we've got some talented kids coming through. I shouldn't say kids, they're young men. Some of them, as you know, have done really well for the Wales under-20s. Let's see. Let's put them in. And I guess that's a little bit what Cardiff has done this year, if you look at Cardiff. They've played some really talented young lads and they've done ever so well. So there's nothing wrong with learning from your neighbours in that sense. And I think, you know, I think we've, I think it was great to see. And I was really happy they got over the line against the Scarlets. I think we deserved it. And I think they did ever so well. Going back to the Cardiff game, though, David, the aftermath of that. Dragons received a lot of criticism. Likely so, you know, if we're being honest. Jonathan Davis, Jiffy, Welsh Rugby legend, he said that a lot of the Dragons players aren't good enough to be pro. Do you think that's a fair comment? No, I wouldn't. I understand that people, you know, pundits and everyone's entitled to an opinion. And when you have a result like that, you're going to cop a bit. I think everyone knows that, whether you're in, it's like being in business, right? If you have a bad set of results or you make some poor decisions as a CEO and you miss your numbers and you miss your forecasts and you turn up at the stock market and say we've underperformed, we've missed our numbers. You know, it's a brutal place to be in the press. They're going to jump on you and tell you you're a rubbish CEO. You should get sacked and you don't know what you're doing and all the rest of it. So, you know, when you're in these kind of jobs, not to compare business too much to sport, because I think sport is a unique animal in terms of emotion. I think you've got to expect criticism. So I don't think, you know, we I don't think we shy away from that. I don't agree in the sense that, you know, I think we've got a great group, you know, anyone can have a bad day. And I think I'm not I don't want to excuse anything, because I think the players themselves, the coaches themselves are very honest about how they felt about that. But equally, I know they're a great group of lads and they're doing their best. And I was just, you know, if they could have that again, I suspect it'd be very different. But we can have it again. And that's sport and that's why we love it. But equally, do I accept why we copped a bit? Of course I do. You know, it's understandable. And, you know, I was probably effing and jeffing the rest of them on the way back from the result after the game. But, you know, equally, it's important, I think, when you own a club or you're chairman of a board of a professional sports team, while you feel the emotion, my God, you feel the emotion. You've got to be able the morning after to calmly think, OK, it's a bad result. But two things. Firstly, what are we going to do? What are we going to do about it? What's the positive way we can react to it? Well, the good decisions we can make off the back of it. And I think that's what Dai Flanagan alluded to when he said accelerate in some decisions, being bold around some of the things we thought we were going to do. If we thought we were going to do it before the Cardiff game, we knew we were going to do it after the Cardiff game. Let me put it that way. And then the second thing is stick together, you know, because if we believed in each other three, four months ago in the summer, let's not fall apart off the back of a really bad result. Let's learn a bit about each other. Stay loyal. Let's ask ourselves the tough questions as well. Let's be super honest and blunt. It's no good slapping each other on the back and saying that was OK, because that's just delusional. So we've got to be super honest and blunt with each other. But if we think we're the right people to work together six months ago, we must still be. And therefore, let's, you know, ask ourselves the tough questions. But equally, let's have each other's backs here, stick together and hopefully show people at the Scarletts game, which thankfully we obviously got on the right side of the result, that there will be a reaction. And of course, I don't think the Scarletts game makes it all right. And we should all forget about that, if no one for one second thinks that. But, you know, we've got to we've got to earn that back. And over the coming period of time as owners, and it's not just about the players and coach, as owners, we've got to show that to supporters and we're as equally as responsible for everything that happens at the club as, you know, as everyone else is. So, you know, that's as much on me. And I did feel it. I felt that's a failure because I've only owned the club for six months, but I've been chairman of the club for six years. So that's a reflection of my efforts the last six years. So, you know, I've got all my hand up and say, clearly, I haven't done well enough and I've got to do better. And I'm sure it's our year to watch us lose to our nearest and dearest every, you know, every six months. So, so, yeah, we all desperately want to bring about some change and hopefully give people a better trip to Cardiff next time. Absolutely. Thank you for that, David. Right, this next question, a lot of people were asking this question. This is one of the most popular questions that we have. OK, so this particular question comes from a Rodney Rowe, which is a fan account on Twitter. I think you're familiar with it. Which one? Rodney Rowe. Yeah, they give me loads of shit. Is that Phil BB or somebody who's back there? They give me so much crap. I can't believe it. It's probably because they care, David. Yeah, exactly. That's what my wife says. That's why she gives me the... So this is a question, like I said, a lot of people, to be fair, ask this question. So when our defence coach left for America, why didn't we replace him? He's very amateur for a professional coaching set-up, not to have a defence coach. Our defence has been woeful at times, though I agree with that, to be fair. Now, Simon Cross was our defence coach. He left to go to Washington. Fair enough. It was a good opportunity, but the timing, in fairness, wasn't good for the Dragons, was it, David? It was in pre-season. We wouldn't have had a lot of time to replace someone. But still the question remains, you knew Simon had left. Why didn't the Dragons replace him, and why did we go into the season without their specialist defence coach? Yeah, I think this was fair criticism, and I've got to give David Flanagan here a bit of protection, because it wasn't for two reasons. One is because he... Well, I'll explain. So Cross, if anyone who's met Simon Cross, he's a great bloke. He is a really fantastic human being, and I think he's a very good coach. And Cross obviously had the opportunity to go to Washington with his family, to be a head coach. And honestly, whatever our financial circumstances have been, I wouldn't have stood in his way. And I don't think we ever would stand in someone's way. Life's too short. I was given opportunities in my career to progress, and I was very grateful for the bosses who supported me in those moves. And so I think we should always accept that. And I spoke to Cross over Christmas and New Year to exchange, you know, happy Christmas, happy New Year. He's loving life over there. I'm hopefully going to see him actually when I go to the States. He's a great bloke, so I'm pleased for him. So that's the first thing. I think the criticism's fair. Why? Because when it happened, and this is on me, by the way, so this is on no one else. I've alluded to it. We had a financial hole of 1.2 million, and this helped bridge that hole. And so pragmatically, I was, I guess, accepting of it on the basis that it meant that filled some of the problem that we had to bridge in this financial year that we're in. And bearing in mind, by the way, this year, we're investing a lot of money in the club anyway, but we still have that hole. That's how strained the finances were. And we knew it when we were buying the club, so no surprises either. So that's the honest answer. And Dai Flanagan said, look, guys, I'll do my best to help you out here and make it work for us. And I'll step in. As you know, some of you will know that Sam Hobbs has stepped in. He's an excellent coach in his own right and tried to help us out with a bit of a, I guess, a stretched resource is the reality. So I think it was very amateur. No, I think it was a risk, a known risk on the basis of financially. We had we had a problem and I'm asked bluntly. And so I saw me, no one else sitting on David Flanagan sitting on David Flanagan. The easiest thing for Dai Flanagan to say is David, you know, we need to we have to get a replacement. And I'm back to a nine million pound problem. So Dai supported us, which is why I should always support him. And in a team, you've got to help each other out of certain issues at certain times. And we've got to make do and mend and make do a mess. Is that ideal in an elite sporting environment, which is where you've got competitors who are, you know, got who are very, very well funded? No, it's not ideal. No, it's not. But sometimes in life, you've got to roll your sleeves up and get on with it. It's our reality at the moment. We knew that when we bought the club. We're looking to obviously stabilize and grow the club. We're in the process now of interviewing for defense coaches. We're looking obviously to bring a defense coach in. So we know it's something it's a no known. But I'm not going to you know, I'm not going to shy away from the fact that I'm not going to. You know, that's on me. And any criticism that comes our way should, you know, should come at my door. Because because that's that that was, I guess, in essence, it was a financially led, financially led bridging decision to help us to try to get back to a position where we can trade. I should also have one other thing quickly, actually. The reason we decided to take the pain now is because we believe by doing that enables us to build back in 24, 25 and beyond. So hopefully this means now that, you know, David will be able to bring in a defense coach of his choosing. And that's what he's in the process of working through now. So is it ideal? No. But I also have to stress Sam Hobbs is doing a brilliant job. So there is, you know, with the guys, as is David Flanagan, as are the other coaches. So everyone has had to step up a bit. But is it a perfect world at the moment financially? No, it's not. OK, well, thank you for that. I'm sure supporters are going to be very happy that the process is in place to find the new defense coach. OK, so question from Steve Davis, not the snooker player, Dragon supporter. He might be the snooker player. He could be. I highly doubt it's Steve Davis. I mean, he would be interested. If he's in Brentwood in Essex or something like that, that is Steve Davis. I think he's from Newport, to be honest. If he plays in Reds in Cwmbran, it's not Steve Davis. Is Reds even still open? I don't know if that's still going, is it? I've been out that way for years, I don't know. Right. OK, so he's asking this. This is a big new story at the moment, David. And again, this is one of those questions. I know you can't go into too much detail. But could you just, you know, go into some detail for supporters, please? Again, this is a very popular question. How confident are you that you will be able to retain the international players that are out of contract at the Dragons at the end of the season? So we know that Aaron Wainwright, Leo Dyer, Leon Brown and Tame Basham are all going to be out of contract at the end of the season. They've been linked with English clubs. There's rumors of Kane signing to the Scarlets. So, like I said, I understand you can't go into too much detail. Negotiations are going on, David. I do appreciate that. But how confident are you that you can retain all these players? Will you retain all these players? I think that's... I think we're in a... I think we're in a... without mentioning any names of individuals, I think we feel quietly confident that David Flanagan has sufficient financial firepower to do two things. So let me separate the individuals here because I'm not going to comment on individuals. But I think we're going to retain... I think David will retain the players who he thinks that will want to form part of the next couple of years of his squad. I think he'll make some changes, though, in areas where he thinks we need to strengthen, which is normal and correct. And therefore we might... or he might prioritize, therefore. And we will support that as best we can where we think we need to strengthen. So, you know, to me it's not about those individuals per se. It's about... we've got to shape a squad with as many rugby matches next year as possible in 24, 25 in the season. And so I think we will look a bit different next year. But hopefully it means, you know, those things will strengthen us. And we've got to look at... we've really got to look at things from a... We've got... salary cap of roughly four and a half million quid. Maybe it gets changed a little bit, I don't know. But let's assume that's the case. So everyone's got that. That's not just us. That's all four teams with the same salary cap. We've got to do things a little bit differently in order to make the most of that cap. And we've also got to do things a little bit differently to try and drive some outcomes and results that see us grow and improve as a club. Because I think supporters, sponsors, owners, players, coaches, all want to be part of a success. So I wouldn't think of it so, like, almost as such a... in a sort of negative way. Which ones can we keep? I don't think of it like that. I think of it as who do we need to grow and what do we need to add to improve? And that could be, therefore, different personalities. It could be different names and friends. It could be different positions that we prioritise. But I don't necessarily think it's about, therefore, just a set of three or four or five individuals that we should... I think it's about Dai being able to shape a squad that looks a bit different and he'll prioritise accordingly. So I'm not going to... I really am... I'm not sidestepping. I'm not answering on individual levels. It would never be right. I won't do it. But the direction I'd give you is that I think we... I think we want to look a bit and feel a bit, you know, different in the sense that we need to prioritise one or two things. And I think David Flanagan has got some brilliant ideas on how and where to do that. And we should back him in those calls. But we should be under no illusions either. If the salary caps £4.5 million, we're going to have to make some tough decisions too. £4.5 million could only go so far, right? Absolutely. The next question does touch on that, actually. So Steve Jenkins gets in touch. And it's a good question because he asks, how do we improve performances on the pitch and increase our attendances and interest in the club if we have to manage with such a restrictive budget? And it's a good question, David, isn't it? Because we're struggling to be competitive now. We're going to go down to £4.5 million. We're going up against teams in the URC, particularly the Irish, with double that budget. And more. Of course, yeah, and more. But how are we going to be competitive against teams with much, much bigger budgets than us? And whenever teams have added, then they've got the budget to do that. It's going to be very, very difficult, isn't it? Yeah, let's not forget a year ago, we beat Munster at home, right? And Munster were in the URC last season. And Munster's budget would be significantly more than double ours. So money is an important facet of performance. We all know that, right? But we do have some competitive advantages that we can look to. We have some very good young players coming through, very good young players coming through. So if we can develop and support their development and expose them to the right kind of experiences on the field, then that could help us to be more competitive. We as owners are clearly going to have to, and I think we have done, I think we've invested what, for us, is quite a significant amount of money over the next three, four years. We're going to need the support financially as well. And that's to the tune of a low couple of million quid over the next couple of seasons, which will hopefully help us be a bit more competitive. And then I think what we need to do is through our network and contact. And by the way, when I got involved, the commercial sponsor of the club was 1.1 or 1.2 million a year. And John Westwood and his team have now grown that to just under 2 million, 1.8, 1.9 million. Significant kind of growth, right, in five years. There's many things I think I've made mistakes about, but I think one thing the team has done a really good job is, off the field, we've made really good strides around the matchday experience, the stadium development, the commercial sponsorship improvement, growth. It's been quite significant. So I think we can continue to grow that area, which will make us more financially competitive. I do say on Twitter a bit, we need people to stay with us. I know it's tough, but let's be honest, if any one of us walked away, any sports club would be in a bad way. So I think we've got to look each other in the eye and say, let's back each other for the next couple of years. Let's have a fucking good go. Let's hold each other to account, mind. Let's have conversations like this and admit when we've done things wrong or right. But let's stick together here, because if we don't stick together, then we're screwed. So we've got to stick together through what's going to be the pain of change over the next year or two. But I would also then add, we have this thing now where we actually own the ground. And we've got to, I said last night on Twitter, the last six years have been such a wasted opportunity. And if you go back to that 10 million quid in that letter, well, can you imagine if the WIU would do it? You can see why the Rodney Prairie Cabbage Patch hasn't changed. Because can you imagine going to anyone in Welsh rugby in the last six years and going, we can turn this into this, but it costs this much investment. And by doing that, it'll develop this much more revenue. It would have turned straight away, as you can see from that one paragraph from that letter, into a navel-gazing bum fight about, well, if they're going to do that now, then we can have... And all of a sudden, well, that causes paralysis. Because people just pull up the drawbridge and go, OK, we do nothing. Because by doing nothing, there's no argument or no controversy. So I think the last thing for us is the ground. Over the next short period of time, Graham Bradbury, who was the board member that Ho Young has appointed, and one of the guys at Rodney Parade, they're working on a proposal to come to the board, I think, in May, June time. What is it? Two or three ideas that we do, and one of them we have to choose. And, of course, we should tell supporters what the idea is, but then we'll have a go at doing it. Because we can't just do nothing and in two years' time we'll be sat here with the same old cabbage patch. Because that needs to generate some money, and we think it could generate half a million or a million, I don't know, but it could generate something. And that money for us is meaningful, because all of a sudden that could be a marquee player or two. And that could be the difference between European qualification or not. So I think those three things is how we slowly... Not slowly, that's how we plan to grow the club. And then I'd equally say, look, if anyone else wants to get involved and put some money in the club, we're not precious about it. There's no egos around here. If there's someone from Gwent who's made a lot of money or is working in the US... And there's one or two, by the way, who have approached us since we bought the club. If they want to come and get involved, please come and get involved. We'd be more than happy to extend the ownership. We don't have an ego about it. Come and get involved and back the club. We think it's a brilliant stadium. We think we've got amazing youngsters in our area. We've got a great fan base, super passionate. You know, there's something to be shouted about here. And we've got a new board company, hopefully, which if Hugh Jenkins gets his takeover done, you know, that's an exciting story. Newport Council have really started to get behind us. So there's starting to be a narrative here that if we can just start stringing some victories together and get more competitive over the coming year, it starts to get a bit of momentum, I hope. So they're probably the three ways that we can hopefully bring some more finances in to improve the sort of performance on the field. And look, no one's in this to make money. You know, if we do make an extra half a million quid, that's going straight into the club. You know, that's why we're involved. OK, great. If I win the Euromillions, David, I promise you I will stamp up a couple of million to help the club. Honestly, I would. If I win the Euromillions, I need it. I'm scared that I can't help you. I'm sorry about that. Top man. Top man. Right. OK, so a question from Keith, who I've touched on a little bit here, but he wants to know, are there any major sponsorship deals in the pipeline? Are you talking to any major companies? I'm going to touch wood yet. Yeah, so we've got a couple of irons in the fire. One or two that are exciting. I should also say, I should take the opportunity, and honestly, a real massive thanks to our existing sponsors, because they stuck with us through COVID. Pretty much all of them do a man. So keep the money, even though they weren't able to come and enjoy the hospitality or enjoy the activation of their sponsorship. And it says something about the off-field team. A huge thank you to them, because honestly, if anyone comes to Rodney Parade, it's a really great match day. It has a feel to the place. It really does have a feel. I can make that up. I felt it the first time I went there. There's a feel to it. There's a certain magic, and that comes from people, and they do a great job. And that's why I think sponsors keep coming back. If you look at our boxes, I think I'm right in saying, I think I'm right in saying, we're the only club of the four that have every hospitality box sold out. We have a waiting list, actually, for our hospitality boxes. So I think that says a lot. Our sponsors, if you look at the sponsors, they've been there year after year after year after year. So I think we've shown the last five years we can grow the commercial sponsorship. I told you the numbers earlier. We've grown quite significantly in the last five years under John Westwood's leadership. I think we can do a bit more. So yeah, I think we've got one or two decent irons in the fire that if they were to drop the next six or eight weeks, would be really important for us. So yeah, that's our job, and supporters can tangibly see that, because if they see those brands start to get involved in us, they'll see it announced, they'll see it on the shirt, they'll see it around the stadium. So fingers crossed, mate. I'm quietly confident we've got one or two really good conversations happening. Right, that sounds really encouraging. So fingers crossed on that. David, I want to ask you now about the URC, if I can, okay? So the URC is a strong competitive league, and the standard's been greatly enhanced with the South Africans coming on board. It's a much stronger league, in my opinion, than the English Premiership. But as you know, the URC is a hard sell in Wales, isn't it? Because what people want to see are derbies, and they want to see those Anglo-Welsh fixtures. Not everyone, but a lot of supporters want to see those kinds of fixtures. So do you agree the URC is a hard sell in Wales? And what are your thoughts on the proposed British and Irish league? Is that something that you would like to see personally? Do you think that would benefit the Dragons more, being in a British and Irish league, than the current URC? I have a slightly contrary opinion on this. So I love the history of Anglo-Welsh, right? Because I grew up watching my grandfather at Pontypool Park. So that's my rugby education as a supporter. So I understand the nostalgia. Why do I say nostalgia? I think it's driven from the fact we don't win enough as Welsh teams. I won the Scarlets, won the Pro 14 or Pro 12, whatever it was. I didn't see Scarlets fans in their numbers calling for Anglo-Welsh, because they won the league. And I don't see Irish calling for anything, because they're winning the leagues. And I think it's about winning. I don't see the Scottish fans calling for it. The Scottish fans, I know they don't have the history, but what I'm saying is they're not calling for a different product to the URC, because they're winning games, and they're in the Champions Cup. So I think we've got to be blunt about what the real reason is. And I think the real reason is people are fed up of losing. We don't win enough. And I think as full professional teams, we've got to challenge ourselves. And we're the most guilty of not winning enough. So let's be blunt about that. We've got to try and win more. And the way to win more, if you go back the way we started on that letter, is we've got to go about our business in a more effective way. Stop trying to blow holes in each other. Work together. Support each other. Get more money at the pro game in Wales. Support each other to become more successful. Get more sponsorship. And as a result of that, we'll start winning more. And I suspect the noise then about what league we play in will significantly go down. I'll tell you why I have a contrary view. I actually really love watching the South African teams. I think they've brought a lot. I think the players, the quality of the players, the names, the superstars, when Khaleesi was down in the Scarlets, the people queued out the back of the stadium to see the guy. Because Khaleesi was obviously in the ground. The URC is a bloody good league. And it's got more and more competitors, which has made it tougher. But I think we shouldn't delude ourselves too much about the nostalgia. I understand it. The bit I do get is the home and away. I think the bit where you struggle is the away support. You can't get away from that. The fact there's insufficient away support in stadiums definitely gives the English Premiership that experience and advantage. Because from that specific point, having home and away supporters in sport is brilliant. So I definitely think, and we can't do much about that because we are geographically fragmented. And so people, by definition, are not going to fly all over the place. You know, some do. But the reality is you're not going to get the same as if you had Gloucester Bath or whatever. So that bit, I think, is a fair thing. But there's no perfect world either. There's no perfect world. So we have to accept that's a reality. We have to do our best. I love what the Ospreys did by going up to London. I thought that was innovative. Loads of South Africans in West London. Really smart idea. Give that a go. I think we could do better at marketing to that market, the London market, because there's a lot of people from Italy, a lot of people from South Africa. So I think we can do stuff to improve the away experience. But at the same time, we should accept that's a reality. But I think in terms of quality of product, quality of player, quality of teams, quality of competition, the URC is a win, win, win, win, win on those four dimensions. Where it falls down is the history in Wales of the Anglo-Welsh and the nostalgia for it and the away support. And the third thing is we don't win enough in the league we're in. So people start looking for a different solution to the problem we don't win enough. But no one ever says it's because we don't win enough. They say it's because, oh, history of Anglo-Welsh and the away support. And I accept those two things, especially the second point around away support. But let's be really blunt. If we were winning the league every year, Dragons fans and we wouldn't be going, oh, I want to change league. No, we want to stay in the league because we win it every year. It's brilliant. So we've got to be blunt about that truth. My last comment would be on rugby generally is I would love there to be promotion and relegation. I think rugby is a sport at a club level that doesn't get that right. And I know there's examples of sports that don't have promotion and relegation, but they're mostly US sports. In Europe and the culture of our sport, there should be jeopardy at the end of the season. And for me, I'd love rugby. If they were going to do some sort of cross-border remergery, change the structure, the thing I would love to see the most would be promotion and relegation because I think broadcasters would love it. Supporters would love it. It would bring jeopardy at the top and the bottom of the league. And I think all of a sudden, rugby as a marketing product would be enhanced. So the one change I'd love rugby to embrace and be less conservative and stuck in the past about is promotion and relegation. I think the nostalgia thing, though, is the real point, isn't it? When people say, oh, we'd love to have Anglo-Welsh, it's not 1978 anymore. And that's what people are missing. And those fixtures, as much as I remember going to see Ebbw Vale playing against Coventry and stuff when I was a kid, it's a different deal now. And the English clubs aren't interested in us. They want the Irish teams. They don't particularly want the Welsh clubs. I think the nostalgia thing needs to be killed dead. And you're right to talk about it. It's a business. And rugby is a business and needs to be run like a business and on the whims of fans. The other thing is, being blunt, our ship's sailed, hasn't it? Oh, a long time ago. Welsh Review didn't have the chance, was it? And then classic Welsh rugby, we ended up, I don't know, I was a kid at the time or a teenager or something, and I ended up navel-gazing, fighting about this and that and not doing it. So I've had the chance and it went. And I'm not sure if that chance would even exist again. So, as you say, I'm not convinced that it does. But equally, I don't change my view. But what I would love to see is, I would love to see the promotion-relegation format, and that's just a general point around rugby. I'd love to see it in the Six Nations. I'd love to see the bottom team drop out and whether it be Georgia or whoever come up. I know, I understand the arguments for and against it, but I think just adding that jeopardy, I don't know, it just brings something to sport, I think. Okay. I think you have touched on this already, but it's a question from Dragonfire on X. He or she is asking, what is the long-term plan for driving higher revenue for the club? In fact, it's including non-match days if possible and the potential redevelopment of the Cabbage Patch. Now, you have touched on this already, but is there anything else you want to add to that? Yeah, so three things. On ticketing, we're going to push towards having a market ourselves to youngsters' malls. So that was the decision we made. We had a board meeting a couple of days ago. We really want to broaden our demographics and appeal to a younger audience and bring in those families and kids, the next generation of supporter as well. So hopefully you'll see some stuff around the club and how we try to do that. So we definitely want to grow that. I think we do a pretty good job with the community stuff, so I think we can use that. We're going to be investing a lot more money in the Gwent community around trying to grow in schools to bring those kids into the club and let them experience it because I think when they experience match day, it's pretty special. So I think that's one thing. Secondly, we've got to develop the Cabbage Patch. It's a wasted opportunity. That could be meaningful for us in terms of driving non-match day revenue. So expect to hear more from the club over the summer period because we're going to have those three or four proposals come to the board in May, June time. We're going to have to make a decision off the back of that decision. We're going to have to activate it. So the Cabbage Patch development has gone nowhere for six years, but it's going to have to go somewhere in the next six, 12 months or at least start to go somewhere. And then the third thing is continue to grow the commercial sponsorship, which we touched on that a little bit. We've got one or two irons in the fire around sponsors. Keep our existing sponsors because I think we're very fortunate to have a really good people who are loyal to us and we've built great relationships with and we're very grateful for them and try and continue to therefore maintain what we've got and then grow, bring some new people into the sponsorship department. And there are three ways we can grow financially and hopefully that extra money then we put straight into the club. Now, when I say straight into the club, some of that would go on first team. Some of that is we really want to do invest in the training facilities as well. So we're looking at some stuff around training facilities as well, because we would like to, as owners, you know, whatever legacy we leave, I think we have to leave two legacies. One is we've preserved the club for the future generations and the stadium for future generations, given the legacy of Rodney Parade is over 150 years old now. I think as custodians of that asset, we've got to make sure we leave it in a good, better place than how we found it. And the second thing is to make the team more competitive long-term, we've got to give the players the best possible coaching, development and training environment so that we can be as competitive as possible on the field. So I think Astrid Mannoch is a good facility, but I think we can maybe do some stuff to enhance off the field training as well. So those monies can be used and hopefully that brings more success, which hopefully brings more supporters, which then that goes back into the team and you get the flywheel of a bit more success. So yeah, that's the plan at the high level. There's a lot of details beneath those plans, like ticketing, sponsorship, training ground, cabbage patch, but we'll share those as they start to form into more concrete things. And the commercial one's pretty advanced already. We already have, that's already been out there with the partners. The ticketing is developing the community department. I've got an expansion plan that we've supported, the board meeting two days ago, which we invested in more money, as I said, in the Gwent community to grow our footprint with the youngsters and then the cabbage patch ones we spoke about. So that's, yeah, so as you can see, there's a lot going on off the field, actually, genuinely. It's probably, you know, it's, yeah, every day, every day there's something. So we've definitely got our heads down off the field for sure. Excellent. All sounds very encouraging. Graeme gets in touch and he asks this, are the Welsh Government offering much support in terms of the debt the four main clubs find themselves in on the back of COVID? Do you personally feel the Welsh Government could do more, being as rugby is such a big part of cultural identity in Wales? Now, I read something, David, that the Welsh Government says it can't reduce the current 8% plus interest rate that is charging on to the £80 million loan, because if they did that, I said it'd be breaking UK subsidy support rules. I don't know if you've seen that story, but that's what was being reported by Sean Barry in Business Life. So do you think the Welsh Government could be doing more to support Welsh pro rugby in Wales? Yeah, my brief experiences of politics is where there's a will, there's a way. So, yeah, I saw that, and I was respectful of things I don't understand. So I don't necessarily, I don't understand what those UK things are, but I'm very respectful of that. I'm sure they're real. But my experience of politics, as we've seen with the post office stuff, where there's a will, there's a way, and things can happen very quickly when they need to. And as we saw in COVID, actually, if there's a positive to COVID, you could see when there was a will to do things, things could happen much quicker. So I would say where there's a will, there's a way. Although I have to say, I'm very grateful for Welsh Government support, because let's be blunt, without that support, we would have been up a certain creek without a certain instrument. So we, in good faith, took on those loans. And so we should honour them. And so there's no issue for me around that, because otherwise we shouldn't have taken them. So I think we took them in good faith. They gave them in good faith. I think we will respect that. Of course we will. I think we should continue to talk to them in private and talk about how we can best work together to benefit. Because ultimately, in our money, where does our money go? Our money goes into enhancing professional rugby on the field. And who wins when Welsh rugby wins? Everyone wins. When Wales win grand slams, that benefits the whole Welsh economy. It benefits Cardiff's economy. The same is true of if Welsh teams gain the Champions Cup. And who wins as well? Our community teams. Because let's be blunt, what do we invest in? Ultimately, we invest in our communities, whether that's through player development, community development, children's activity, health and leisure. We have so many different provisions that we have, from wheelchair rugby to all sorts. We have over 20 provisions now. So we should see these clubs as community assets too. So I think we should continue to talk. And in the meantime, we should respect the fact that it is what it is. Yeah, but we should continue to talk, because obviously things were done differently in Ireland, things were done differently in Scotland. I know the English guys had something else too. So there's no harm in continuing to talk, I don't think. But talking in the right way, not on Twitter. No, that's how Welsh rugby works, David. We all go and talk and debate and make decisions on Twitter. Yeah, and where's our fucking guys? Oh dear. Okay, I'll admit to the next man, but you've got to take with a bit of a pinch of salt sometimes. A lot of good people on Twitter. There's a lot of experts on Twitter, David. A lot of people in the know, or think they know. But yeah. You know, you guys know I love a bit of the chat. I agree, there's some great opinions on there, and some really well-thought-out, really well-thought-out opinions on Twitter. Really well-thought-out individuals, a lot of passion. And that's where Welsh rugby's funny in it, is that people want to argue with each other, but actually the passion is, it's because we all care. And so when we step back sometimes, taking everything personally on Twitter, which, as you can probably see, I never do. I just laugh. If someone gives me a bit of stick, I think that's probably fair enough. Half the time, I don't think that's fair enough, actually. But at the same time, we should just learn to say, well, we're all in the game for one reason, because we love it. Because let's be honest, we can all go and do something else. These days, there's so much choice in there. You can go and watch a football match, you can go down to the cinema, you can go shopping, you can go for a walk, go and spend time with your family. I don't want to do too much of that. But there's lots you can all do with your time. You play on a bloody Xbox or whatever. So we're all here for one reason. We're here because we love the game. So we should sometimes remember we've got a bit in common as well. And that's probably the most important thing. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so this next question, I see this getting asked all the time on Dragons forums. And I know the answer to it. But this is what Garth McCann is asking. Are there any plans to play games around the region again? No, because Rodney Parade... Well, look, when I got in, I was really open-minded about it, so I thought I'd test it. I don't know if you guys might not remember, but we did one up at Ebbw Vale. I'm glad I called him. Yeah. It was Edinburgh. Yeah, Edinburgh, yeah. And Richard Cockrell went next to me. Richard Cockrell gave me some shit before that game. Yeah, I remember. He had a moan at Bernard, he had a moan at Bernard, he had a little bit of a jib at me and whatnot. But to be fair, we did take a game to Ebbw Vale in February, which was probably the most genius idea I ever had. But anyway, but it was done in the right spirit, which was like, let's test it out, because if like, I don't know, 8,000, 10,000 people turn up and it's a rip-roaring occasion. What I didn't understand when I did it was probably two things. One is to put on a professional day, you need facilities. If you look at Rodney Parade, it's got 13 corporate boxes or whatever. It's got a lounge with 300 people in that can serve calvary. It's got dressing rooms ready for the professional game. It's got parking. It's got all the infrastructure. It's got built-in catering. It's got the bars. And don't get me wrong, it's not perfect, but it's built for a professional sporting event. And going back to what you said about nostalgia, I grew up going to Pontypool Park and standing on the bank with my granddad. So no one needs to tell me about how special some of those grounds are around our region because they are fucking special and they have a feel to them in their own right. They have an absolute feel to them in their own right. And Pontypool Park, I'll submit to anyone, is a special place to watch rugby. But ultimately, we're in the world of professional sport now and you have to... We talk about how do we grow the club? Well, we need to get more sponsors. Well, you can't do that unless you offer a great match day experience which needs facilities and infrastructure around it. So pragmatically, I would love it if we had two or three Rodney parades around the region because then the answer is different. But we've only got one Rodney parade in the region and it's our home and therefore, we're going to invest... We're going to go all in on that. And that doesn't... But what we will do is invest, as I said to you earlier, we've already made the decision a couple of days ago, we're going to invest significantly more in our community investment around the whole region from Blinder Gwent all the way down to Newport. And so people will see that because they'll see it with their kids in school. So they will see that Dragons is absolutely a club that's invested in all of Gwent rugby and we are absolutely committed to do that. But where does our team play? It plays a Rodney parade. And the alternative is we lose money because when we played that game at Eugene Cross Park, we lost a lot of money. So I was left with a bit of egg on my face not for the first time. But I learned a lesson that night. I learned a lesson that night and you don't make the same mistakes twice and that's very grateful to Ebbw Vale. It's a brilliant place to watch rugby, a bit like Conical Park. But in terms of the Dragons and the product we need to give our supporters and sponsors, I'm afraid in this current day and age, the only stadium that's fit for... that we could offer sort of the professional experience that we need to offer to grow our club off the field is Rodney parade. Of course, if that changed, I would be pragmatic, but that is the reality. Like you say, it's the infrastructure, isn't it? I'm an Ebbw Vale fan, Ebbw Vale boy. Eugene Cross Park is a throwback to watching rugby in the 70s. And it's no place for professional rugby and the crowd was quite disappointed, wasn't it, for their Edinburgh game. Well, mate, and the reality was, like I said to you, if you're going to do that, we either should have done it pre-season probably or at the end of season because people probably don't know, my mum lives in Newtown. And so from the age of 12, 13, I grew up between Newport and Ebbw Vale. I had a normal upbringing. My dad was in Newport, my mum was in Ebbw Vale. So I was between the two. So I know the area. But if you're going to do something like that, you do pre-season, you do end of season. What you don't do is, and that's again, I made a mistake. It was well-intended. I was probably a bit green around the gills, wanted to take the club around the region, make the point that we are going to represent Gwent rugby. So it was well-intended, but it was a bit naive. I didn't do my own work enough. And so that's a lesson learned. And then also timing-wise, anyone who's grown up around Ebbw Vale knows, you don't play it in February. It was freezing. I mean, it was about four degrees. I think it was almost frozen, the pitch, I think. I can't remember, but it was like, it was touch and go around. It was the coldest night you can ever imagine. And so if you're going to bring kids into the day and give them a great experience at Eugene Cross Park as part of a Dragons thing, you do it in August or September as part of a... And then it's a nice summer's day. The sun is out, it's light, it's warm. Everyone's in their T-shirts. And it's a great experience. You're showcasing the best of Ebbw Vale and Eugene Cross Park. And you're doing it at the right time. But yeah, in terms of a league fixture, then I don't think it's possible. And it's probably the second-best ground in the county as well, which, if you think about that, that's a place of living context, isn't it? Like, if that's the second-best ground in the county, there's no way of getting there elsewhere around the county. Yeah. I think there's better ways to connect the club. I think the way to do it is through the community investment. You've got to get into the kids and schools, and we've got to grow that way and play the long game and get them down to Rodney Parade, give them the best experience possible at Rodney Parade by making Rodney Parade as brilliant as it can be. And, you know, and let's be honest, if you support and love a club, you know, I drive up to bloody Liverpool sometimes to watch Everton. And that's like three hours training. Yeah. But if you love your team, and I'm not being funny, you'll come down from Cumbra and Bonniepool if, you know, for 10, 11 games a year, if it's a great experience, we've got a good team, we're competitive, and you have a fun day out, then I don't think it's really the fact that we don't play in Ebbw Vale which stops you coming from Ebbw Vale. It's all the history and all the nonsense, really. Yeah, but the loss-making is a big part of the issue because I always remind people when they talk about this of what happened a few years ago. Now, this was before you came to the club, I think, David. The Dragons hosted a game against Cardiff Blues at the time, at Caerphilly. Ah. Now, I can't remember why they did it. It might have been a clash with Newport County because they get the primacy. I think it was a fixture clash, yeah. Yeah, so they moved it to Caerphilly. The Dragons lost a lot of money. Caerphilly nearly went bankrupt just from hosting it. It was a big shitstorm after it. It was a lot of financial mess after that. So I always tell that story. And it did a lot of damage. My God, you take it there, you know. And it did a lot of damage to the relationship, I think. Before my time, I picked up some of the legacy stuff between Caerphilly and the Raptors. Because like you say, these things, they've got to be understood. And you think about a match day experience, you know, genuinely, on average, we'll have 250 people who are having a three-course meal at Running Parade. On average, we've got 12, 13 box holders who have, you know, hot food, drinks, expect a comfortable, you know, sort of hospitality-like experience. Rightly so, because they've bloody paid for it. And then you've got several thousand people who want, you know, want to be able to have access to a bar. They want to be able to have access to some food. They need access to toilets. They need to be able to park. They need to be getting in and out safely. You know, so there's things that, and that's like, that's table stakes. That's table stakes. So to give a good experience, you've also got to then try and enhance it on top of it. And by the way, you've got to try and do that profitably. Otherwise you lose money. And there's plenty of ways in professional sport, I found out, that you can lose money. So, you know, if you don't get that bit right, you're in a whole world of pain. So yeah, hopefully that gives people the, that's the warts and all honest picture anyway. No, great stuff. Thank you for clarifying that. This question is a little bit of a loaded one, I think, but this is from O'Ryan and he says this. With the rumours about our international players being linked elsewhere and having already lost the likes of Rolands, Moriarty, et cetera, what would be the incentive for us to renew our season tickets for next year? So David, if someone says to you, look, you know, we're losing games, we're losing our best players. Why should I renew my season ticket next year? What would you say to that person? I think people need to look at it in the round because I don't agree that, I think we're going to, we're losing a few to gain a few and you've got to look at it in the round in the sense that you can't look at any one individual go and you've got to look at who came in to replace that person and what's that done for the team's competitiveness. So, you know, forming a squad is an art and a science and therefore if you just pick on one individual and go, oh, we've lost Rolands or whatever, okay, but what's happened as a result of that? And I think that's what people will see, hopefully played in a positive way the next four or five months as the club makes announcements where hopefully people go, ah, I get it, that makes sense now, that makes sense, I can see why they've done that. And I think that's the piece, you know, so it's never a person, it's never about one individual, I think, you know, but I think if you look at what people should do, so why should they renew? Because I think if they look at what we're trying to do in the round and hopefully what we're able to execute, I think they'll see some very talented players stay, they'll see some of our most high-profile Welsh players stay and they'll see the squad reshape for sure, so there'll be some leaving, some will come and I think that what they should then do is think, do I think that's made the Dragons more competitive for next season? And I'm quietly confident the answer's going to be yes from the conversations we're having currently. Now, of course, there's no guarantee because it's subjective opinion, but from the way Dai's thinking about next year and how he thinks about it, he's got all my confidence and I look at it from a chairman perspective but I also look at it from a supporter's perspective, so I think we've taken quite a bit of the pain that we needed to take in the last six months whether that's Rowlands going, Moriarty going and others, Simon Cross, for example, we've taken a bit of pain and I think we want to start building back and I think that's hopefully what people will see, so what I ask people to do is just look at the comings and goings and then make a judgment when those comings and goings have stopped, so when the music stops, go, what do I think, look at this squad and I hope people will say, that looks competitive, that looks a more competitive team and therefore they've clearly made some decent decisions. The proof of the pudding is always in the eating and I'm wise to note that you have to wait and see but the intent is absolutely there to make us more competitive, that's the absolute intent. Yes, absolutely, we'd love to see the Grimes be more competitive, wouldn't we? Okay, question from Gareth, any chance of some Friday night games next season? No, in capital letters, no Sunday games. As I understand it, David, the TV companies have never called the shots, well, do you as a club have any say in the scheduling of games or when you want to play them? You don't do? Not much, I think a bit, so what people don't know is probably three things, so one is Newport Company have primacy on the ground, at least as a football league club, they have to have that, so we have to wait for the football league fixes before we can inform the URC of what weekends we can play at Rodney Parade, so there's a genuine understandable issue there for the URC because they need to schedule the other teams in the league and they can't just wait for the Dragons, so there's an understandable disadvantage we put ourselves at because of that, because clearly otherwise we could go to the league much earlier and say, here you go. Having said that, the football league have become really decent and very fair about how quickly they give us the company fixtures, so that's helping, that's in a relationship we've started to improve and develop over the last couple of years, so that's helping, but that still remains a complexity because we're obviously a dual-purpose stadium. The second thing is that the broadcasters, of course, we're a significant contributor to our revenues, around 20% comes from broadcast of our overall revenues, it's significant, so they understandably then get dibs on when they want us to play and they also have scheduling preferences, so that influences it, but then the third thing is we do have some influence over that, we were literally discussing this in the board a couple of days ago, if we want to target youngsters, I think we've got to become two things, there's two learnings we saw over Christmas really, we don't want to be playing when the premiership are playing, I don't think that makes sense because we cannibalise supporters off each other, so I think the premiership is probably more important than we all realise, so we've got to start scheduling games outside of when the premiership are playing around Gwent, so I think that's something we can maybe control at the WIU level conversation with us, so we've got to look at that and credit to Johnny Westwood for pointing that out because I think that's a really important data point we haven't thought about enough historically and then the second thing is I think we've got to be clear to supporters about when we're going to play and try and be consistent with that, so I think there's two things that appear to us to be marketable, Friday night, but let's accept that you can't really bring kids and family, and I just said we want to grow with kids, so I think we've got to have a two match day scenario, one is a Friday night game and then the second one I think is we must accept some afternoon fixtures, now ideally we'd love Saturday afternoons assuming there's no premiership and if not we're going to do some Sunday afternoons because I want to be able to get the kids there and that I know people don't like, but we've got to back ourselves to try and grow those occasions but be really clear with people about what our game is then about, Friday night is sort of a boozy night, under lights, hopefully a great atmosphere and a rip roaring game and have a few beers and all the rest of it, and then there's a family experience which is we'd love to have Saturday afternoons, I don't want later than 5.30 though, I think when it goes beyond 5.30. It's not good for families David. People have things to do on Saturday night as well, I know myself and my missus, you're going to go and watch rugby at 7 on a Saturday night, we've got like four kids, that's family time, so we've got to get a product I think into those afternoon blocks if we're going to market the families because once you go Saturday late I think you might as well play Friday night late because people don't mind a Friday night late because it's Friday night but I think Saturday night is culturally a bit more family time and then afternoon, early evening is probably the latest you can go on that. So that's what we're going to try and manufacture and then you can judge us by the outcome in next year's fixture list to see if we've done a decent job or not. Okay, I have to say I have a big bug fear with the scheduling and I don't know whose fault it is exactly. So let me give you an idea of what I mean, okay? So I'm a Dragon season ticket holder, I'm also a Newport County season ticket holder, okay? Good for you. Yeah, if I miss a Newport County game it's not the end of the world for me because I know that every other Saturday I'm going to see the county, a Ronnie Parade at three o'clock on a Saturday, okay? I know the scheduling, I know the routine. With the Dragons, if I miss a Dragons game I might not see another Dragons game, Ronnie Parade for four or five weeks. And I cannot understand why sometimes we have a period where we have a big cluster of home games and then we don't have anything then but what feels like a month or so. And I can't understand that and it's very difficult David for people to build a habit, isn't it? When the games are, you know, on Friday nights Saturday afternoons, you know, Sunday nights. Do you understand what I mean? I just find that really difficult and I think it's difficult for people to build that habit when the games are so, you know, scheduled the way they are. I see it with Premier League football, right? You know, genuinely Everton fans Man City fans, Liverpool fans they all bemoan the fact that they obviously they've taken the money from Sky but it means you're playing at past 12 on a Saturday two o'clock on a Sunday, Friday night, Monday night because obviously ultimately the broadcasters dictate when they want that fixture played and they literally dictate it. So fixtures get moved. And so do I understand it? Yeah, I do. But broadcasters, when they're contributing meaningfully to the professional games revenues do get a significant say on when fixtures get played. I think what we can do is what I just told you but I think we will always less so than company because, sorry, more so than company, the opposite more so than company because companies don't have the same broadcast pressure that we get. So we've got more broadcast influence pressure. And also company benefit from the fact they have primacy of the stadium because of the FA leash that we have to have which is fair enough, but that does you know that I love the company so it's not but it's part of the deal. So you can't have the rough without the smooth. So, you know, we benefit from the fact they come to you in the ground and therefore what we have to accept the rough is we don't have as much flexibility in Dragons fixtures. So you benefit it as a company fan but it hurts you on the Dragons side is how I summarise it. Yeah, that's fair enough. Before we move on can I ask you a Newport County related question because as I said, they have a season ticket and Hugh Jenkins, that takeover is going through although it has taken longer than anyone has expected I don't know why it's taken so long but I understand They're waiting for clearance, aren't they? Yeah, they are, they're waiting for clearance. I understand you've had meetings with Hugh Jenkins What's your impressions of him, David? And what were those meetings about exactly? What have you been discussing with him? I think he's brilliant. I think he's really knowledgeable about football. I love sport. I love football. I thought I knew a little bit of football until I met Hugh. He's incredibly knowledgeable. He clearly knows how to run a successful football team. He's very ambitious for company. He's very passionate about it. I think he's a great guy. I like him a lot. I've met him three or four times, I guess now something like that. I met him two days ago, most recently. Genuinely, he has all my support. I think we'll work well together. I think we want to bring the clubs even closer in terms of off the field. It's not always easy to do it because I think he's going to want a bit more and I want a bit more but there's a bit of a conflict. But I think we'll work together well. My sense is we're similar characters in terms of how we do business. We both love... I certainly love the company and he wouldn't be getting involved if he didn't, I guess. He certainly loves football. I'm quite optimistic about company. I think my adult man is a massive company fan and has been a season ticket holder certainly pre-COVID. Now he's a bit of a scaredy cat now but he used to go all over the gaff. I'd love to see company get up a couple of divisions. It'd be amazing. It'd be absolutely rocking and rolling. I know it's not easy. He's in the same business as we're in so it's not easy in every... I watched that Salford thing, whatever it's called, the class of 92 and how much money poured into Salford and all the rest of it and they're still... Well, they're languishing now in Division 2, aren't they? They're 20th. So if it was easy and it was just about chucking money at it Salford would have been promoted years ago, I think. I don't know if they've spent that much more money there. There's definitely more money, isn't there? But I think when a huge company you've got someone who knows how to do it. He did it with Swansea quite recently. He knows what he wants. He knows what good football looks like. He knows how to get up these divisions. So I'm hoping, fingers crossed, touch wood, that he'll be great for company and, my God, a bit like our fans, the company fans deserve it. Nothing would please me more. Nothing would. Newport County have got the smallest budget in League 2, by the way. Is that right? It is. Or at least one of the smallest budgets. Graeme Collins is doing a fantastic job and he knows how to get a lot out of the players. It's quite similar to Dragons working on a really small budget and trying to be competitive. And if they stay up in the Football League that'll be... They should stay up this year. They should stay up this year. Yeah, we should do. Yeah, yeah. We should be okay. The big one's Easley, mate. I mean, I think the big one... You've got to be excited by that, haven't you? We've got to get past Easley first, of course. I wouldn't open my curtains to watch Man United. Yeah, we've got to come down through the county, haven't we? Oh, I'm joking. I'm a tenuous Everton fan about Man United. No, yeah, of course. I mean, it'd be absolutely... For Rodney Parade, for Newport County, it'd be absolutely magical to have Manchester United at the ground. But let's not get... You know, Easley away is going to be tricky, right? I don't know. I've got to be honest. I'm quietly confident. I was going to say all the right things then, but I'm quietly confident. I think all the pressure is going to be on Easley. They're at home. Their fans are going to be baying for an FA Cup. There's a lot of pressure on Easley to get a result now. Yeah, there is. See, company go down there. I remember the Barnet game where they drew at home and then went down to Barnet and won 3-0 or 2-0. I can't remember. Or 1-0, I think it was. Yeah, I've just got this feeling that, I don't know, please God I'm right. I've got a feeling that I think they're going to get a good result at Easley. And if they do, please God, they do. I think it sets up an unbelievable day in Newport with Manchester United in town. It'd be... It'd be a day to remember, wouldn't it? Absolutely, fingers crossed on that one. Okay, so these next few questions, maybe they're quite light-hearted. Well, they're quite silly actually, but I just thought I'd mix it up a little bit. So, question from Hugh Griffin. Indian, Chinese or trippy? Indian. Or you choosing out of those? Indian, yeah. What's your curry of choice, David? All day long. My favourite curry used to be lamb madras, now it's chicken madras. I don't know why I've changed. I think I ate too much lamb madras. I don't know what happened. Didn't have a bad one, just had too much of it. Yeah, curry, mate, all day long. I've always, I don't know, curry box in Cwm Brown, my dad introduced me to and then I've been stuck on it ever since. After training as a kid, actually, I used to get a keema naan bread on the way home. Talk about nutrition, fucking hell, terrible. But yeah, I love a curry. You know, it's a great dish, isn't it? What about you? What do you prefer? I like a chicken tikka saag. It's not good for my nuts, admittedly, but I do like a chicken tikka saag, yeah. And I like chicken jalfrezi as well. What about you? I'm curry as well, lamb naga. Oh, nice. Lamb naga is nice, actually, because it falls off the bone. Lovely, isn't it? Yeah, and you add the naga chillies and it's just got a bit of a punch to it as well. I'm going to go and just eat now. I don't like the curry. It's making me hungry. Are we all pilau rice? Or is anyone doing anything funny like mushroom rice or anything? I quite like keema fried rice. I don't know where you stand on that, David. Do you like keema fried rice? Or do you like the mushroom fried rice and the other stuff? Or are you more into the basmati? I'm doing pilau rice, guys. I don't agree with this. Like, my wife gets mushroom rice and I was like, I don't agree. It's not right to me. It's pilau rice. It's fine. It's nice. In Chinese food you have quirky rice and you have pilau rice. Yeah, plain naan. You carry a choice of pilau rice. Yeah, and that's the other thing. My kids and my wife is like peshawari naan and that's not right. Coconut in bread is not right. Sorry, that's not right. It's not right. Plain bread. Plain bread. I don't mind a roti. No, a good roti particularly. I'm getting hungry now. I know, I know. Right. I love this next question. This is from a fan. He has an FB page in his profile. Ian Davis asks, do you get paid? That's literally the question. Do you get paid, David? It turns out I'm the biggest fucking idiot in Welsh rugby. No, I think I'm the only person who doesn't get paid. No, no, I don't get paid. I volunteered. I said to the guys when I get involved in the club that I understood it was a financially distressed asset and the last thing someone in my position should be doing is taking money out of the game. To me, it's a privilege and an honour to be involved. It's not an honour to be asked. I grew up loving the game. You don't get involved unless you're a player to take money out of the game. You should do it. So I know absolutely. I've always been a volunteer. It's cost me quite a lot of money to be involved in Welsh rugby. I've got a lot back in other ways. I met some unbelievable people. Love the club. Absolutely love the club. Really do. I think the areas... I know Gwendy's, we can be a bit special sometimes, but we're good people. We're loyal. If I think about the people who got involved in the ownership, Dai Wright to Gwendy, and through thick and thin the last couple of years, COVID. He said, Dave, I'll buy the club with you. And he came through. He came through. At the time, I was thinking, why are we all doing this? But there's something about Gwendy's. I think there's a reason why we were probably... We made good soldiers in the First World War. We're a loyal bunch to be in a trench with. I think we see things through and we stick together. I know we can have a good moan at each other. Don't get me wrong. We'll criticize each other, but we probably don't like it when other people criticize us. So we're quite... We can criticize each other, but when people come from the outside, we sort of group together. And so, yeah. No, I've never taken money out. I've always put money in, and that's probably the right way round, in my opinion. I don't criticize people who need to make a living from the game or anything. It's just, I think, if you're in my position, you should be putting money in. And if you don't want to put money in, money ain't in anymore, you should get out the game. Say, thanks a lot, guys. I've had a great run. I really appreciated it. But I've probably done as much as I can now. And for me, honestly, one of the best people I've met in Welsh rugby is Peter Thomas. You know, I obviously knew Peter when he became a more elderly gentleman, if you like. And I was always unbelievably impressed with Peter, like how dedicated he was to Cardiff, how passionate he was about Cardiff, what he put into Cardiff personally, financially. You know, unbelievable guy and an absolute gentleman. You know, it was lovely to meet him the first time he met me. You know, I loved his club. So, yeah, I think, you know, if I could do 1% of what Peter's done, I'd be happy in my contribution, if you like. Yeah, a very sad loss to Welsh rugby, isn't it? Let me ask you this, David, though, right? When you came into Welsh rugby, you knew what it was like. It's a basket case. And I knew that when you had those... Well, it is, isn't it? Let's be honest. Let's be honest, it's a basket case. We say it all the time. We absolutely do. It's a shitstorm. The negotiations you had with the WRU when you're trying to buy back the Dragons or put the Dragons in the primary ownership, it was difficult. It was very stressful. Did you at any point think, oh, fuck this. I've had enough. I need to get out to Welsh rugby? Because let's be honest, nobody would blame you if you said, okay, I'm done. With everything that's happened with the WRU, with everything that's going on in Welsh rugby, nobody would have blamed you. They would have thought, okay, I need to pursue other business interests. Now, I'm done here. Did it ever cross your mind to just walk away from Welsh rugby? Never. Not once. Really? The harder I go, the more stubborn I go. The more bloody-minded I go about I'm doing this. Because, and honestly, and for two reasons. One is I knew if we didn't do it, that was the end. And I couldn't live with myself. I wouldn't have been able to live with myself as a local lad if that had been the case and it happened on my watch. Honestly, I couldn't live with myself. Because don't get me wrong, money's important, right? You need money. Everyone needs a bit of money. And I've been very lucky. I was in the right place at the right time. But, you know, it never defies. I grew up with, I didn't have money as a kid. So I was a very happy kid. So I don't need money to be happy. But I need enough money to live like everyone. So it was never about that for me. It was about, it was about the people that I worked with and felt very loyal to at the club and the supporters and the sponsors who stood by us through COVID. I felt we owed it to them. That the harder it got, and how hard does it get? You have a shit meeting and people don't agree with you and they shout at you or they try and stab you in the back or whatever. All right, so what? I go home. I still got my kids. I still got my missus. It's not the end of the world, is it? I still got my brothers. I still got my mates. So you got to learn in business sometimes and in Welsh rugby to take things a little bit with a pinch of salt. So was it tough? Absolutely, it was tough. But there was never a second, honestly, that I thought this is not worth it. It always felt worth it for the relationships, for the people, for the history of the club, for the history of Rodney Parade and for the potential of our future. It felt worth it. So never, honestly, I didn't. And then the second reason was I was very lucky. I had some good people around me. Some great guys at the club. I mentioned John Westwood. I mentioned David Wright, Ho Young, Ben Lucey, Dyflan, all the guys. We had James Chapman. Some really good people around the club who were fighting alongside us in those rooms. Really fighting alongside us. And then, of course, Brian Bradbury who came in as Ho Young's director. He was incredibly important in the last few months of negotiations. So it wasn't just me carrying the burden. Let's be clear. It was a load of people as a team working together, fighting for the club. And a bit like what I said about being in a trench together, I think one thing Gwent is good at is when we're in a trench, we stick together and we see things through. And I think rightly, we saw it through. And so no, no, absolutely not. It never once crossed my mind. And do you know what? It feels more right and worth it than ever now. And maybe on Boxing Day for half an hour after the game, I question my sanity. Brilliant. OK. I am conscious of time and we have taken up a lot of your time. Again, thank you very much for doing this. Gareth, is there anything you want to finish up on? No, I think I was going to ask about the Gwent thing, but we already asked that. You know, and yeah, don't play rugby in Ebbw Vale in February is the clear... Big learning. Absolutely. I paid attention to that as a kid. And if I can, guys, just say thank you to you and all the supporters for the backing. I know there's been some really tough days. We joke about Boxing Day, but we all still know it was a brutal day for you guys. Thanks for sticking with us. I know on times, it hasn't been easy. But look, but you know... It hasn't been easy for the past 10 or 15 years or something, to be honest. Hopefully, that'll make the good days really special, I hope. That's when we'll all be able to look at each other and say, my God, it was worth it, wasn't it? And that's what we're all aiming towards. So please, God, please, God, we get to that point and then we can all look at each other and have a beer and say, my God, it was worth the fight because that's what it's all about. I do have one question, Jamie, that's reminding me. No, I'm going to throw the rock in this at the end. Black and amber hoops. We need to be in black and amber hoops, David. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, I don't think it was my most subtle decision when I stuck amber around the side. No. Not the most subtle thing I ever did that. No, listen, of course, professional teams in Newport should be playing black and amber. 100%. Absolutely. We shouldn't be embarrassed about it. It should have always been the case. Quite right. Oh, I've just realised, sorry, one question. I remember, I think it was Greg who asked me, they knew you were doing this Q&A with us tonight, are you going to do a Q&A in person with the co-owners at Lonnie Parade? Is that in the pipeline, David, at some point? Yeah, it's not difficult to do. Me and Wright are in Newport every week. Graham's in Newport every day. Yeah, the guys should have a chat with Ben Mottram and just make it happen. I can do it next week, for example. I know Wrightly could. So, yeah, we're at people's disposal. We're always conscious. I think there's, sometimes there can be too much comms, but I think we probably do. We probably do a face-to-face and actually it's nice when it ends. People know me, I think, a little bit, but it's nice for them to meet the other guys. So, yeah, we should get it done. So, yeah, we can, no problem. We can do that anytime when it's, maybe do it over the Six Nations or something. It might be quite a nice time to do it or something, I don't know. But anyway, yeah, let's get it in the diary and make it happen. Brilliant. Okay, as I said, David, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate it. It's been great. Yeah, that was a really good chat. Gav, thank you as always for joining me. We'll be back next week to discuss the Zebra game, where hopefully Dragons are up one foot in the last 16 and then we'll preview the Sharks game in Newport. So, thank you very much guys and thank you all for listening. We'll be back next week. Take care. Goodbye now. Thanks guys. Take care. Thank you for listening to the Dragon's Lair podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Please subscribe, rate and review wherever you listen to us as it really helps spread the word. You can find us on all the usual social media channels or email us on welshregionalrugbypod at gmail.com and remember, whatever the question is, Rugby is always the answer.