Dragons Lair - The One with Jabba

The Dragon's Lair podcast discusses rugby topics and features special guests. The guest in this episode is Steve "Jabba" Jones, a former Dragons player. He talks about his nickname, his rugby journey, and the changes in Welsh rugby. He also shares his experience of meeting Nelson Mandela. The podcast hosts discuss the new early development competition and the fallout between Ospreys and Neath. They also talk about the challenges young players face in maintaining their motivation and opportunities in rugby. Welcome to the Dragon's Lair. Hello and welcome to the Dragon's Lair podcast, your home all things Dragons RFC and rugby in the region. I'm Jamie and joining me as always is my co-host Gavin Thomas. How are we doing Gav, are you okay? Yes I'm very well Jamie, I was kind of jet set and go back from Prague yesterday, managed to watch my club side remain unbeaten in the league and then went home to watch the Dragons which took a bit of a shine off the weekend. Yes, I've heard Prague is very nice, did you have a nice time up there? Oh I'd recommend it, it's £2 a beer and loads of stuff to look at. That sounds good enough to me, as soon as you say £2 a beer I'm sold, I'm there. So you'll find us on platforms such as Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pocketcasts and the Sports Social Network and if you like what we do please rate us and leave us a good review as it all helps to grow the pod. So we've got a special guest with us this week Gav, we've got a Dragons legend from Leith who played 180 matches for the Men of Gwent and made his debut for the Dragons against the Austries back in 2003. He's won 5 caps for Wales and he also has a snack bar named after him at Rodney Parade. It's Steve Jabba Jones, how are you doing Steve? Yes, great to be here boys, thanks for inviting me. Not a problem. First off, how did you get the nickname Jabba, how did that come about? I honestly wish I had a great story for that but it was literally my brother's nickname for a short period of time when I was probably 9, 10 and literally one of my friends picked up the phone and started calling me and it just stuck like mud, even though I was in school, the school teacher didn't know my name he just called me Jabba. I played for Wales and we were out in South Africa and I got introduced to Nelson Mandela as Jabba and I've got a photo of me just shaking my head like that. I'm sure Colin didn't know my name, he just went this is Jabba, he didn't know what else to say. He obviously didn't know my name back then. So it's no great story, it just stuck with me and it's my name now, but funny thing it's my son's name now and he's called him Jabba as well, so it's getting a bit confusing now. Pass it down to the family for the end. Okay, so can you tell us all about your journey into rugby then Steve, where did it all start for you? Yeah, obviously like everyone I started in school playing. I was always a tiny player but it was always one of those things, oh he's a bit small, he's too small to play and everybody got selected anyway up to fifteens. I remember I was on the bench for my Swansea school boys on the fifteens team, couldn't get in there. Played bits and bobs, all my mates went to university. I trained a little bit for Aberav and didn't know what I wanted to do either year out. Ended up going to Cardiff Met, which is UIC in my day. Started playing regular then, literally I played for Wales probably three years after that. I was in Canada doing a development tour and I just went from there, signed for Neath. Obviously went regional then and I was with Mike on Wales Day and he took us to the Dragons and I was there. I didn't want to believe the place to be honest. You're from Neath originally aren't you Steve, or Neath Valleys aren't you? Neath and Mumbles, Swansea pretty much, I got a family of both actually. I spent early, when I was young, young I was in Neath. Then I went to Mumbles and then I come back. I've been here since I signed for Neath, so I've been here ever since then. What's your take on Neath wanting to be part of this new competition? They didn't take it very well have they? It's one of those things, something's got to change for Welsh rugby isn't it? We all know it needs change. But with this new league, what realistic change is it going to be? Because to me, what players are going to be playing for these teams now? Probably the same players that are playing now. So we haven't achieved anything. Now if we've got 60 players all ready to play at that level, at an under-23 level, brilliant, but we haven't. But I just hope, it's going to take four or five years to find its feet, and hopefully by then, if regions need players, the players that are below them, they can just pop in and out and take the boys in, and hopefully they can flourish at the top level as well then. Sorry, go on. It's tough, and it's hard for Simon and Neath. Boy, I played for Neath, and they are a fabulous club, but there's no way you could have four teams in the Ospreays region there. I think three are too much to be honest. But it's just the way it is with the Cardiff teams at the moment, not in. We don't know about that last team coming in. But it is hard. We've done a lot of good work over the last couple of years with the people coming in with the team, getting them back in the prem, and it's hard. But we do need change. I just don't know if this is the right way to go about it. And I think there's a Neath thing as well. I'm an old bloke, so I remember the Neath team in the 80s. I'm going to watch from my dad, and midweek games down at the Knoll, they were terrifying, but great experiences. It'd be nice to have old games again. Yeah. It's just sad, isn't it? It's just sad, isn't it? I don't even look at my son now. We don't even know Neath and Swansea and Newport, because I still think of them as massive clubs. But times are changing, isn't it? It's the regions now. But as I said, we do need change in Welsh rugby. I just hope if we stick with it, we'll see it flourish after a couple of years. It's going to take three or four years to bed in. Because my worry is, if you think about it, the regions struggled to fill in the Wales A, the other Wales A, the regional A fixtures. So now we've got two or three teams in every region to help supply the players. Where are these players going to come from? Yeah, that's it. It's like you said, Steve, there has to be change. We do need to narrow that gap, don't we, from Semi? A lot of people in Welsh rugby recognise it. I guess the question is, is this new early development competition the way to go? But the proof's in the pudding, isn't it? But the fallout between Ospreys and Neath, I don't know if you saw it on social media, it was so Welsh rugby, wasn't it? Conflicted statements, it's just so Welsh rugby. What do you make of that? It is sad, isn't it? It is sad. Because if you think they were, you know, the Neath and Swansea Ospreys when they first came onto the scene. It is tough, but it's always easy. You're always going to crack some eggs when you want to try and make something, isn't it? And it's just sad that it is Neath. But as you said, I just see all the players we produce in Wales from up to 18 years of age as probably better than any team in the world. But we have got that gap from 18 to 22, 23. A lot of them go missing. And it's just, we need to keep those in the game at a top level. And hopefully this is what this league will do over the next three or four years, you know? But why do you think it is that they go missing then, Steve? In your opinion, why does that happen? God, my opinion? It's a hard one, isn't it? It's a hard question. I've seen it closely. I worked in Gower College since I was in secondary 10, so I'm part of their rugby academy, part of that elite, like, under-18s programme. And you get lots of good players coming through that programme, but then it's that when they get disappointment, a lot of the kids just throw the towel in. You know? It's not just where we are. It's not a rugby thing. I think that's a society thing anyway, isn't it? Are we resilient enough? Because as soon as someone gets a knock back, it's hard to bring them back into it, you know? And I think rugby as a pastime, for want of a better phrase, is starting to become their sort of thing. And like you say, it's these lads, they're good players, they want to become elite players, then they aren't being offered those opportunities. And then what would have happened back in the day is you'd have gone to play for your village side or your town side or whatever, and then hopefully build your way back up, and no one's really doing that. No one's not getting into the regions and then going, well, I'll tell you what, I'll go and play for Bargoid or whoever. Well, it's that thing, it's, I might even want to be at the top, or I don't want to play. It's going to be like American sport now, isn't it? You're either a pro-American football player, and there's nothing underneath it, really. It's like the tip of the top of the triangle, there's no base. And that's where you're slowly developing to, you know? Yeah, that's right. So you mentioned earlier, Steve, about Nelson Mandela, and I did have this question down. So on X, formerly known as Twitter, your profile picture is you meeting Nelson Mandela. Now, that's one hell of a memory to cherish, isn't it? Do you want to tell us a bit about that? What was it like to meet Nelson Mandela? Yeah, well, it was fabulous. Obviously, I wasn't actually in the starting squad that time, but we had all this travelling squad, pretty much. I met him and shook his hand, and it's probably one of those only memories that I take from my rugby career that sticks in my mind. I can't remember half of the games I played in, I can't remember some of the players I played with, and I can't remember their names now, but that's one of the things that's stuck in my mind. It was a great tour, you know? And I had a couple of tours. I think it was the same tour. I think we travelled to South Africa and Argentina. We did them both on the same tour. There was one game we played in Argentina, and Clyde Griffiths was the defence coach, obviously, in the Dragons and in Wales. He asked me to video the game behind the posturing while the game was going on, because obviously I wasn't involved. I went, no worries, so he chucked me up in this little box. There was no ladder, so he had to bring a ladder out to put me in this box. I videoed the game. I missed four tries, because obviously I wasn't moving the camera properly, and he forgot about me. So after the game, I couldn't get down. He went to the aftermath, too, and I was stuck in the box for three hours. I couldn't get down. I was stuck up there. Literally, just before they went back on the bus to go to the hotel, they remembered I was up in this box. I thought I'd be up there, so now I'm still up there. Another classic Welsh rugby moment. He did ask me again. I missed the three tries. He can't think like he was. But it shows your father games. Come on, isn't it? You've gone on tour as a member of the playing squad. Can you do me a favour? Can you go up there? It wouldn't happen now. No, of course it wouldn't. That was time before. We didn't really have analysis then, really. It's such a big part of the game now, analysis. It was just starting off around that period. Clive was one of the top ones I did. He was brilliant, you know? Yeah. We said Mike Ruddock as well in charge. It would have been Mike and Clive, wouldn't it? Yeah, Mike and Clive. Both went from the Dragons, then straight to Wales together. They were brilliant together. So you had five caps for Wales, Steve. And you were a member of the side that suffered a pair of those agonising, malting defeats in 2004. Now, one of them was against Salvasco, wasn't it? Where we lost 38-36. The one that sticks in the memory, though, was the All Blacks, where we lost 26-25. I remember that like yesterday. We really should have won that game. You're not bringing that last line, you know what I mean? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. But that was the one that got away, wasn't it? What an experience. Yet again, meeting Nelson Mandela and facing the All Blacks is an unbelievable experience. I've only ever done it once, and I've only played five times Wales, but luckily it was that one game against the All Blacks. But just facing the hacker is just one of the most amazing things you could ever do. It's not intimidating, it's not scary, it's just amazing. I was a bench, so I wasn't really that nervous. I was just there with a big smile on my face every time he gets psyched up. This is just amazing. And they had a fabulous team as well. All superstars, brilliant. I'd like to say as well, Steve, as somebody who has to throw in the line-ups a lot as well, if it goes wrong, it's always the jumper's fault. Definitely. Never the hopper's fault. Never. I was playing in it, and it fell back in. Okay, so Steve, you made 180 appearances for the Dragons. Some highs, some lows. What stands out for you when you look back on your time at the Dragons? How do you look back on your time at the Dragons? I loved it. Honestly, I loved it. The players I played with, especially in the first five or six years, we don't see much of each other now. We've got a bit of a WhatsApp group going on. We still have a bit of a bit of each other, but we were like a family. We trained hard, we played hard, and we went out and enjoyed ourselves hard as well. It was just a great environment to be with. Clive and Mike really created that ethos. Get the wagons in the circle, it's us against the world. We would die for each other on that field. We weren't about making Rodney Praet a fortress. He was a fortress for a good few years. That's what they've got to try and get back to. It's a great place to play, but it's horrible for the opposition if it's fully loaded with the fans and it's a brutal place to be. It hasn't been that way for a while, Steve, has it? If we're being honest. Is there any particular games that stand out for you? Any memories? Beating Munster away sticks in my mind. I think it was Luke Charters' first game. I'm sure it was his first game for us up there when we beat Munster away. And beating the Ospreys all the time. I definitely lost to the Ospreys at home for a good few years. I think there's so many memories of games that I can't really pick. Munster away was special. We beat Ulster quite a bit away. Any away games, it was a little bit more special. We were expected to win at home, so winning away was a big thing for us then. I don't think it's been repeated since, has it? Winning away at Munster. I can't even remember the last time you were probably part of the team that did win at Munster last time. Staying with the Dragons, it has been, I'm afraid to say, another disappointing season for the Dragons. Now, Steve, when you watch the Dragons, what do you think is going wrong there? Because the basics aren't being done correctly, and me and Gav seem to be having the same conversation on this part about Dragons games. Week in, week out. Not doing the basics right. Poor leadership. The skill set. The mentality. We spoke, didn't we, before we started recording? Dragons have always struggled, but in your day, Steve, we were more competitive. And Rodney Crick was a fortress, but now it just doesn't seem that way. When you watch the Dragons, Steve, what stands out to you? What do you think is going wrong there? Is it the players? Is it the coaching? Or do you think it is the culture mentality issue? I think it'd be just back in that rock-and-the-hard place, where we've got a lot of really good youngsters playing together now, but it's hard to bled them all together at the same time. Just look at the Ospreys today now, where they've got really good youngsters, but they've still got a lot of really old heads who are still at the top. They've got Nicky Smith, Sam Parry, who's got the Dragons for a few years, and he's been there a minute. So we've got those youngsters coming through. We've got the Morgan Moores coming through, the Harry Bees coming through, but they're not coming through all together. I think that he's doing a great job there. He's trying to get that culture with all the local boys playing and playing for the jersey. You just need time, but in professional sport, you very rarely get time. People keep saying, well, we need more money. We do need more money, but that money's got to be invested in the player pathway more than anything to me. You can't just chuck it into the first teams of the regions and go out and get some top players again. It's really got to be put into that lower level, and hopefully in a couple of years it will come out. It's the Irish system, isn't it? By the time 20-year-olds have got the Leinster, and particularly Leinster, they are blooded, they know what to do, they know the systems, they understand what they're doing. We seemed to be just like the dragons yesterday. Lots of injuries. I think we pulled four or five lads, barely 20, out of the Newport team, and expected them to be able to get on with it. It's not realistic. Back when I retired, even when I finished, just when I was finishing, you played Leinster and Munster, and there was boys coming out in that team on their debuts at 26 and 27. I'd never heard of these, and suddenly they're international players within six months, but because they can keep them in the system for that long. We're in Wales, and this is not a dragon thing, this is across the board. If you don't make it into the first team by 21 and 22, you're pretty much gone. You've got to be a special player to get in the regional team at 21 and 22, because we can't keep them in the system, because we've got to bring the next kid through, because we can't afford it realistically. That's where the premise should have been, where if we invest the money right, for those boys to stay in the system until 25 and 26 and come out as a proven pro player, we just can't do it in Wales at the moment. I don't think we've ever worked out what the relationship is, like we've talked about with the new competition. We've never really worked out, and I'll be frank with you, what the relationship is between the regions and the clubs. Well, I think the WQR makes its decisions and checks it in the region's lap. The regions are going, oh my God, how are we going to do this? Exactly in the club's laps, and the clubs are like, we've got no players left. What do you want to do? Something's going to change, as I said earlier, but I don't know what the right way is, but we've just got to back it and hopefully it comes through in a couple of years. It's going to take five years to see a change in it. I think having faith is an essential part of being a Welsh rugby fan, isn't it? Whether or not you're a club fan, an international fan, whatever, having faith is always the watchword of it. I remember watching Wales in the 80s. We'd be celebrating if we beat Romania. We've been spoilt. Over the last 10 years, we have been spoilt as Welsh fans. I say that to younger Welsh fans all the time. I say, you know, you never had to watch the Welsh side of the 80s. I mean, I watched Wales in the 90s, so that's just as harrowing for me. Just to touch on that, you talked about youngsters coming through. Dragons have got some very talented youngsters. We had a lot of youngsters last night. I think Aki Salu was the only player on the bench that was over 23 years old. We did have a number of youngsters. This isn't just a Dragons thing, but do you think that it can harm development to chuck kids in to a loosened environment as a team, so again, being healthy every week? Is there an argument to say that can hinder development? It can. It's one of those 50-50 calls, isn't it? You look at the Welsh team now. Alex Mann and Gwynedd, they wouldn't have been playing for Wales if they still had X amount of money and foreigners playing at the top of the table, but they've been chucked in. I've seen them come through the academy system, and they're fabulous players, and they've had a chance, and they've flourished. It's just difficult when you're giving 10 to 12 or 13 players a chance at the same time. 4 or 5 would be good core players around them. You can help bring them through, but when there's so many youngsters in one go, it's going to be tough, isn't it? It's going to be tough, but I would like to think all youngsters want to play. If they are losing, they're just going to get better, and we've got to get better to bring them through. We might have a Welsh golden age again in five or six years. Yes, absolutely. So, let's talk about Wales then. Ron Gatlin's men have played two, lost two. We knew this was going to be a tough campaign because Wales are rebuilding, and like you said, we have got youngsters there, but there are reasons to be optimistic, isn't there, Steve, given the young talent that we've got in this squad. So, what have you made of the Six Nations so far, in particular Wales? I've enjoyed it. I didn't enjoy the first half too much of the Scottish game. No. I think we've done well. I think we've done better than everybody else would think we would be. It's going to be tough in the next couple of games. It's going to be really tough to play in Ireland and France. It's like anything. If you want to be the best, you want to play the best to see where you are and where you can improve. If we do lose, lose by 30 or 40 points, we just know where we are. We've just got to get better. Or we just can everybody off and start again. We can't keep doing that. We've got to support the group we've got now and hopefully it'll come through. Ireland are going to beat everyone by 30 points. I'm convinced of that. They just look ridiculously well-drilled and everything is clicking. I think we will get humped by them, but I don't think they'll be anything different to what they do to England, either. I think England have really disappointed me. If you think the players they have, they just don't develop and play the game. If you look at some of the club games and some of the players playing there, I don't know what happens when they get to international level. I said this on the last call. I live in England. I coach in England and I always say to the English guys, I know you lot should be winning every six stations. You should have won at least two or three World Cup for the playing base you've got, but something happens and then they pull all those white jerseys on. It's great, isn't it? So with Wales then, Steve, do you think Juan Gatland was right to come back to us? Some people said that we should have moved on, that we should have brought someone in fresh for the World Cup and beyond. Do you think he's the right man to rebuild or would you prefer a new coach to come in and blood the youngsters? It's difficult, isn't it? Who is available? That's the question, isn't it? Sometimes it's better than the devil you know, right? The WR knew what they were getting when they brought him back in. He sort of knows what's happening really, the system's in place sort of. So it's a bit of a stopgap, you know? It's just hopefully we can build now and when his contract is up, whenever that is, we've got something in place for someone to take over after that. I've been trading with Pivac, but he wanted to go in a different direction with Pivac. He'd done okay, but then he had a couple of bad losses, panic, and he sacked him, you know? It's just one of those things, you know? I think with Pivac, and I'm sure I'm alone in thinking this, but I think with Pivac it was almost that six nations he won was more by luck than judgment and then I think he just felt a bit shapeless. But you're right, there needs to be honesty planning. They need to know who comes after Gatland and it needs to be thought out and it needs to be somebody with a proven record. You see the same names always come up. Pat Lamb, well, he's done a terrible job at Bristol. You're not getting Scott Robertson now because he's coaching the All Blacks, so who's out there? Yeah. I said there's no way of saying who's available. Yeah, absolutely. Are there any Welsh coaches we'd have? Dwayne Peel's not covering himself in glory, is he, at Scarlet? You've got Tandy in Scotland, you know? That youngster's done a good job in Cardiff. I know he's not in Cardiff anymore, but is he somebody to look at? I don't know. I think he's on the naughty step for a bit, hasn't he, Darren? I think we've got other vision. If you look at how many players we've got now, we can't really play what Gatland used to play the game. I think his game is going to evolve. You'll coach what players we've got to find the best suits then. We haven't got the big carriers, have we? You look at our Welsh team now and who's going to do the Jamie Roberts job? We haven't got that player anymore. And that's across Wales, man. If you look across all the regions, we're not big men at the end of the day, are we? No. We haven't got the loads that are going to get us over the game with physicality. So we've got to be a little bit more smart about how we play for the game. It's never really been a Welsh thing anyway, has it? Those kind of massive game-nighting. I'm trying to think of Welsh players and I'm really limited in what I think. I'm going back now. Mark Jones, who played for Neath in the 80s. I don't know. We don't produce many of those. No. I mean, if you look at young Morgan Morse who's coming through with the Ospreys, he's a fabulous player, but all his breaks come with great footwork, a bit of agility. It's not like running over people, because I think there's not many people in the world who can do that now. You have to have a little bit of finesse about it. And I think defences have worked out as well, haven't they? Because if you think about Billy Voodoo Polo when he first came through on the scene, and Billy Voodoo Polo was breaking tackles, making yards, and the defences have worked out. Now, if you crowd him the minute he gets the ball, he goes nowhere. But that's where Ireland are so good. Ireland are connected with the players out the back. The ball player's always got two or three options. So the defender is always really... I always say he's sat on his shoulder, but the defender is always really stuck. He's got no other option than he can pluck him off. So it's excellent. Watching Ireland play, it's a joy to watch. Yeah, absolutely. It's one of those tries against Italy where the 10's got the ball, he's got four men around him, the Italian defence has come in really sharp on it, and Loos has come in on an angle, away from the defence, and Crowley has thrown a huge pass. It's just such well put together rugby. Yeah, they're well drilled, and they're well coached in Ireland. So Steve, here's a question for you then. What would you change, if there's one thing you'd change about the modern game, what would it be? Is there any particular law you want to see scrapped or a new law you'd bring in? What bugs you at the moment about the modern game as compared to when you've played? That's a good question. One thing that really bugs me, I've got scrum time in the next half an hour, is why is it always a penalty if you're going backwards in a scrum? Sometimes, just because you're going backwards, why is it a penalty? You don't get penalised for missing tackles. Just because you're going back in a scrum, it doesn't mean it's always a penalty. Sometimes it is. Sometimes, if it's a scrum to go forward, let it keep going forward, like years ago. Keep going forward. It might stop then, scrum, repeat, scrum, repeat. It might keep the game up a little bit more. As soon as the arm comes out, you go for another scrum or you take in a corner. Just to keep the game a little bit more light. Why do you think it's a penalty? Is it because props losing is binding? But then, it seems weird to give a penalty for prop losing is binding when he's being shunted back five yards. As soon as the scrum starts going back, the ref will always put his arm out. Even if the props are still straight, still in the law, where is the penalty? I just find that a little bit... You don't see drives over the line with the eight-scoring match anymore, do you? I used to love a try like that. Not anymore. Those days are gone now, I'm afraid. Steve, you've been a great guest. Thank you very much for joining us on the podcast. Before you go, let's get a prediction from you. It's Ireland-Wales coming up now. We know it's going to be a tough one for Wales. How do you see it going? Can we compete? Are we going to be competitive enough, do you think? I think we'll surprise a few people. I'm not saying we'll win, but I think we'll probably be within 15 points of them. I hope. I'm not saying we're going to beat them, but I think we'll surprise them. The longer we're together, the better we get normally as a Welsh team. So, defensively, I think we're getting a little bit stronger. Can we threat them with the ball in hand? That's what I'd like to see a little bit more of. That's fair enough. Thank you very much for joining us, Steve. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you, Steve. Cheers, lads. Here we go. Steve Jabba Jones. Bit of a driving pleasure. Good to get him on down, wasn't it? A cult hero at the parade. Yes, like I said, he's got his own snack bar named after him. So, he made an impression, didn't he? Yeah. Proper rugby bloke. Lives and breathes the game. Played super hard as a player. Quite an old-fashioned hooker. I always had time for him. He does come across as an old-school style player, doesn't he? Yeah, just like him. He was a hard bastard. The game is missing out on us now. Absolutely. If you had to do a list of the world rugby players who were just hard bastards now, you'd struggle to come up with a big list, wouldn't you? Absolutely, and I think Steve was always a reliable, solid club pro, but I would say as well he should have had more than five caps in Wales. But I know he had... who did he have in front of him at the time? I guess he would have had like Matthew Roosevelty or... I'm trying to think who he'd have in front of him. Neffin around that time. Yeah, Garen Jenkins was on the end of it, but he was still there at the start of his international career. Yeah, Matthew Roose, Neffin... I just find he should have had more than five caps, you know. I mean, five caps is better... yeah, of course. I mean, five caps is better than no caps. We got to meet Nelson Mandela. He's had a great experience with Wales, but yeah, really good player. Glad he joined us tonight. Okay, then. Gav, we did ask to talk about last night, I'm afraid. Glasgow 40, Dragon 7. Two tries in the first three minutes set Glasgow on their way to a bonus point victory. It was six tries to one. Glasgow did have four players released from the Scotland camp. We had one. We had Kai Evans returning to us, but we had 21 players unavailable, and I think that does need to be taken into account. However, the performance graph, yet again, is just not good enough. Glasgow made 25 clean breaks. They beat 39 defenders, and they racked up 759 metres, whilst the Dragons missed a whopping 39 tackles, and they had a success rate of just 78%. And I've seen a stat, and I don't know if it's true. Apparently, we didn't make a single line break. I don't know if that's 100% true or not, but I've seen that on Twitter. We didn't make a single line break. And I can't remember one. No, neither can I. So, Gav, what was your take on it then, on this game? So, I think we were lucky that it was their start, because I think Glasgow missed quite a few opportunities. Well, defensively, we were awful. And, yeah, I'm not one for being negative. I know how hard it is to be a terrible rugby player like I am, never mind a guy playing at that level. But we didn't do stuff that you would expect guys who are being paid to do that should be able to do. The tackling was pitiful at times. Dan Lyddiart. Dan Lyddiart was one of the most reliable tacklers in Welsh rugby. He seems to not have that anymore, because he wasn't there in the right places. There was a tie early on we talked about there, when him and Joe Davies have got the space covered, and they've wriggled through that. It's something happening too international, or not international, but too professional for rugby forwards to be able to stop that. Yeah, so that was the first try. That was 30 seconds. You had Joe Davies and Dan Lyddiart, and somehow, Mackay managed to wiggle out of it. And that's just not good enough for me, I'm sorry, to experience guys like that. That's unacceptable. And it's easy to say, oh well, the defence was poor. We know defence was poor. But we didn't look like we were going to do anything when we had the ball in hand. And, you know, we've said before, oh well, it's because we had young guys doing it. Well, it wasn't young guys. It was Angus, and it was Kai Evans who were our pivots. Yeah. And I've been very pro-Kai Evans. But, oh my god, his turning speed is not what an international rugby player's turning speed should be. He was like a bloody super tanker. Can you remember that super tanker that got stuck in the sewage? At one point, a ball's gone over his head, and he's kind of gone. And I was like, come on, Kai, run. Because he looked like he wasn't running. I think that's one of the criticisms about Kai Evans. Like, I've always defended him, and he's the first to do this, but he's not the quickest. I think it's fair to say. But it's just really disappointing, though, Gavister, because I just want dragons to be competitive. Look, you can't expect them to go up to Glasgow. This is Glasgow, who, by the way, haven't lost at home. Nope. Or season. Okay? They had some Scottish internationals back. They're a strong squad. Nobody realistically expects the dragons to win up in Glasgow. But all we want to see is dragons be competitive. You know? And I'm afraid, I've got to say this. Like I said about the Cardiff game, they're throwing in the towel too easy. And it was game over in the first half. And that's just really depressing, isn't it? You know, when you know the game is over so early, you just think, well, what's the point? Because you would say that Glasgow side have gone outside chance of winning the UOC. Yeah, they're a very good team. Yeah, they're a proper team with a genuine chance of winning that competition. So we're never going to go up there to win. But like you said, I totally agree. And it's not... Why aren't we doing the basics? And it is literally the basics of rugby union. I know. You know, it's not that we aren't playing super fast-flowing rugby. I can live with that. We aren't making tackles. We are passing as Paul. Our handling as Paul. It's the basics, Gavin. We spoke about this so many times on this podcast. Why can't we not do the basics right? Because if you get the basics right, that's a start. But we can't even do that. There was one very draggancy moment in the second half. I don't know if you saw it. We had a couple of penalties. It was the rare occasion we actually put Glasgow under a little bit of pressure. We went to do a tap and go but we forgot to do the tap bit. And then there was a penalty there to Glasgow. You know, stuff like that. Come on! Come on! It's basic, isn't it? Why can't they do it, Gav? Why can't they get the basics right? I'm trying to word this in a way that doesn't sound negative. But we've got to be honest about it. I think there's one honesty, you know. We've got to call out these really bad performances. There is something going wrong in the coaching. And that's not a criticism of Dave Flannell who we have been positive about. But there is something going wrong. And I've seen a number of guys on the various Dragons forums we're both part of saying about the defence coach. We've been saying that since the start of the season. You have to pause it. Because if you said to me, what's the defensive style of Dragons, I couldn't tell you. I genuinely couldn't tell you. And I've said this before, I'll say it again. For a reason I haven't quite worked out yet. I've watched quite a lot of rugby league this week. And why don't we just go to one of these clubs? And they don't earn a lot of money, the rugby league guys. And say, come down here and sort out our defence. There will be some bloke at Hull or Hull KR that will happily come down and help us get our defence right. Because when you watch the rugby league defences they can't tackle, bless them. But Jesus, they know how to close space down. Yeah, absolutely. And we are in the market for a defence coach. Dave Flannell has come out and said that he's spoken to a number of coaches, defence coaches around the world. So we will have a defence coach next season. That's probably going to be announced in the summer. The problem is it's about now, Gav, isn't it? Why can't we defend competently now? And I know Sam Hobbs has helped me out with the academy, but I go back to it. These are professional rugby players and there's too many tackles, when I want tackles, they're being missed. What do you put that down to? Is that the coaching? Or is that the players? Because people like Dan Lidgett and Joe Davies they should know better, they know how to tackle. So why can't they do it? It's six and two threes I think, isn't it? Because tackling is about technique and if your technique is poor, if you're not in the right place, you're not going to be able to make a tackle. But if you're not in the right place that might be not to do with your technique, but it might be to do with coaching. It might be to do with how do you set the defence up? It's a bit like the blitz if you think of the Wales game against England, when Grady's come out and he's realised he's come up too quickly so he's got no option when that ball's floating over his head, but he's batted down. What is our defensive system? It looks like it isn't blitz it's shuffle defence but is it aggressive in certain places? I don't know. And I'm watching and I can't work out what the defensive system is and that's a problem. And I don't know what our attacking system is either, which is also a problem. We've got no identity at the moment. Like you, Gav, I don't know what we're trying to do. I try not to be too gloom about it, but I mean performances like that just dishearten me when I see the basics not being executed and we're getting absolutely pummeled. Like I said, I don't expect to win these games, I just want us to be more competitive as to the basics. I want to show us a bit more fight heads drop all the time because to me now we are going back to this is what it was like under Bernard Chapman. As much as I like Bernard Chapman really good, but when we were under Bernard Chapman, we went through this period where we were getting battered 40, 50 points every week. We had a load of kids but we wasn't competitive and we were losing quite heavily every week and we had no shape or structure and we've progressed back into that only, I'm afraid. Yeah, it's absolutely shapeless and I'm lucky in some ways I live where I live so my dragons cost me £15 a month on Viaplay. I'm thinking of you and all the other season ticket holders who are there every bloody, every other week. It's an entertainment business. You'll go in it because you want to be entertained. When was the last time you've been going a long time I watched most of my rugby in Wales in the late 90s early 2000s. When's the last time you genuinely think you've watched the Dragons and thought this is alright, I can cope with this? The last Dragons game I really enjoyed. The win sold for Gosprays were good but going back last season we beat Munster but I was like a bolt out of the blue. But I liked that game because we were always in control but even when we sort of lost control, Munster were threatening their way back into the game. We showed resolve and frankly we came back and beat them and of course that's when Rio Dai really made his name. What a fantastic day. Those are the days I like when Dragons front up and they show grit and fight and they have done it at home but the away record is awful isn't it? I mean we haven't won away for what, over a year now? That's just not good enough. That's not good enough. And for all the talk about us wanting to make Rodney play the fortress, well yeah of course we do. But at the same time, you've still got to be confident on the road, you've still got to win your away games. If you want us to progress and climb up the table a little bit you've got to go to places, you've got to front up don't you guys? You can't just purely rely on home form. Rugby isn't like it used to be you know. Rugby is a global game a professional game and when we were talking to Steve and I remember going to watch games down at Neath on a Tuesday, I found my dad just like the aggro to be honest because you know that Neath team was fairly aggressive. But yeah that was an incredibly intimidating place to go to but those places don't exist anymore. No one plays in stadiums like that. The top teams play in massive stadiums that don't have those atmospheres. So it's a different thing though you should be able to go to Manchester if you're competent Glasgow Italy. But be competitive and be competitive and when the occasional game of rugby I can imagine that Soman Park back in the 80s was an absolute horrific place to go and play rugby. It's not like that anymore. Here's a question for you Gav. Will we win another game this season? Who bloody knows Jamie, who bloody knows. We've got to beat Edinburgh at all haven't we? We've got to put our heart and soul into it. I'm not saying we will. They very nearly I saw some pilots say very nearly beat Edinburgh. Yeah. And we've talked about how they are improved. So I'll just read out the fixtures right. So it's Ulster away. Who lost to the Ospreys. That's going to be a heavy beating. We've got the Bulls at home. We've got Zebra at home. We've got to go to Benetton. Tough place now. Benetton is flying. We've got Connacht at home. Is that a winnable game? I used to think it was. I don't know anymore. Then we've got the Stormers at home. Ospreys away we haven't won in Swansea for absolutely ages but the last time we won in Swansea was when Dai Flanagan was the Ospreys fly off. That's a true fact. And then we've got the Scots at Judgement Day. I appreciate that. I don't want to be doom and gloom. I appreciate it probably. I'm sorry to do it but I do apologise for that. I know if listeners aren't happy with it but I've struggled to see a win out of these fixtures, Gav. Be the positive one then. Give me reasons to be cheerful. We could, he says, we could potentially beat Zebra. We could potentially beat Connacht. We could also potentially lose both of those games. There's not one day I would say, oh yeah, we'll definitely win that. There's two that I would say are winnable. We aren't beating Bulls. We aren't beating Stormers unless they send their kids across. I remember the last time those came to Rodney Parade and me and Dad just couldn't believe the size of them. Their pack, Gav, was absolutely huge. We looked like little boys compared to them. I mean, you could say that about a lot about the South African teams but the Bulls are massive. You talked about Scrums going backwards earlier. Our Scrum was going backwards in later noughts when the Bulls came to town the last time. They are blokes just bred on lumps of beef about that big, aren't they? Those Bulls forwards. Let's end on some snow posters. We did have a lot of kids out in Glasgow and it was nice to see Joe Westwood and Alexis Samska. He's from Pontypool. He's making his first drags appearance. He should have played a hooker but he ended up playing a flanker with a converted hooker packing down a number 8. Which is not ideal. That's not the experience he should have had but fair play to him. He stepped in and he did a call for Rod. That's no way to bloody answer him. Oh, you're a hooker, right? Oh yeah, can I go and play 6? That's fine in Sussex Division 5. No one in the bloody URC. But that's the worrying thing, obviously. I'm just concerned. I mentioned the experience of these youngsters. I'll always say the Dragons have got talented youngsters but it's the experience of being in a team that's getting pumped. It can't be good for them. It can't but this is the future now and I think Dave Flanagan made a comment saying they're a young group but we've got to stick with them which is fine but then we've got to start looking then at the senior players because actually if you look at the SC, the senior players really let the team down. If you're blooding young players and this is the same, this genuinely is the same for the URC and Sussex 5. In my club, we've got lots of guys, not so much young, well they are relatively young but they've never played rugby before. Yeah. But we are blooding them in a core group of players, all of whom have been playing rugby together for about 10-12 years and I mean those newer lads are just learning alongside people who know how to play together and you can seamlessly fit them in. If you said to me what's our first choice 15 this season, I wouldn't bloody know. Have we played the same 15 two games in a row? I don't think so. I'm not sure but it's difficult at the moment and we've got 15 players out injured and there's nothing you can do about that. It's just one of those things. I mean we're not the only team. The Ospreys, we all know about them. They are 20-odd players missing but the difference is the Ospreys, they went to South Africa and they beat the Lions with kids. Now if we go to South Africa and we are a damn lot of players missing, well we've already seen it. We're going to get pumped. Yeah, exactly. We're going to get pumped because when you take 21 players out of an already paper-thin squad, you're asking for trouble. And it's like, you think about some of the co-positions, how many people have played at Hocker this season for us? We've had Brodie Cochran, we've had Roberts, we've had Dee, James Benjamin who's ended up having to play in a back row. There's a guy who was out on the pod, we know he's a very talented player but he shouldn't have to be playing in a back row. He shouldn't have to be doing that. So we've had four Hockers, like that's not ideal. We've probably had eight props, I think we've gone through the end of Coleman, at least three or four on each side. You can't build anything if you don't know who you're playing with. In other news, we know about this already, the reports in the media this week, so Tame Basham is weighing up his future and the Dragons face a battle to hold on to the Wales back row. So, Wales Online are reporting that he's held talks with the Scarlets but there's interest from Sailsharks, Northampton and Saracens. So if he's signed for an English club obviously he falls short of the 25 caps required. But there is a possibility he could leave us and go to Scarlets. So I just wanted your thoughts on that Gav. Well, that's frying pan fire, isn't it? I could understand why he wouldn't go to Northampton or Sail, because he'd get paid more and he'll win games, he won't play much rugby because he won't get a Northside. But you know, he will get paid more and he'll win games. Why would he go to Scarlets when the Scarlets are in the worst place of maths? Yeah, Scarlets, I don't think there's much difference between the two teams at the moment. Dragons and Scarlets, I think we're both pretty hapless, if I'm being brutally honest. I don't know, unless he's been a fallen out, you know, with the cultures, maybe he wants a change. I'm trying to see how many Wales caps he's got. So according to, I mean, don't trust Wikipedia if I haven't looked at Wikipedia, it says he's got 17 Wales caps. Could be more than that. But he does fall short the 25 required. He'll probably have 25 by the time his contract's up. Well, I'm not sure about that because it's up this season, isn't it? So there won't be many games for him. I don't know if that includes the summer tour. Yeah, he'll probably get another cap only. I don't know. I've not rated him for a while anyway, you know. Who would you replace him with, though, if he goes? I mean, George Young did play last night, and he's highly rated. Yeah, but early for him. No, he's a bit early for him, I would suggest. Well, you know, I was going to say he's got Oli, but he won't get Oli because, you know. Inches again. Concussion, I believe, this time. It was concussion. And Harry Keddy's always injured as well, bless him. So I would hope, he says, that if he does leave, we replace him. Yes. But I think we should try to keep him personally. I do like to say, do I think he's lost his way over the past year or so? Yes, I do. I have to be honest. But you know, he is a talented player, and it's like Chris said, you know, he has to be kept in check, isn't he? And that's what Dean Ryan was doing. So we'll wait and see what happens there. But in other news as well, Dragons announced that they've signed Matthew Screech, which covers a shock to many people, because he was on loan from Cardiff for the past two years, but they have signed him and made a permanent deal. So good news, Gav, or how do you feel about that? He's an option, indeed. I don't think... I'm not going to get up and applaud the joy of Matthew Screech signing for us, but he's a good, solid pro who will always give his best. Yeah, that's fair enough. Excellent video as well from the Dragons, by the way. I don't know if you saw it, they did a take on Saved by the Bell. Oh yes, I did. Quite inventive by the Dragons social media team, and that was good to see. You know, we had AA Vaughan, that sketch, you know, with Aaron Wainwright, which I thought was really good. So the Dragons social media team are up in their game on the signings video front, aren't they? So credit to them. I liked that Ospreys one you showed, that was great. Oh, I know, yeah. That's definitely heartwarming. Yes, they do. They've got a really good social media team at the moment, the Ospreys. Because the best thing for me was, like, I love this Origin weekend, when you get to see the clubs that people started at and, you know, and people in their Newport school old boy socks and Cumbrian socks. Yeah, it's nice, isn't it? Yeah, I thought that was very well done, and credit to all the teams taking part. Good initiative, and, you know, we saw it at Cardiff as well, so yes, good stuff. I think, you know, grassroots rugby is, you know, clearly something I'm involved with, but it's the heart of the game, and I think we have to remember that. Yeah, and it's where everyone starts, isn't it? They all start at grassroots. So, yeah, it's good to recognise that. Nobody starts at the Dragons, do they? You know, they start at Ebbw Vale or, you know, Blackwood, or wherever it is, you know. Yeah, that's absolutely right. Okay, let's move on then. It's time for the Gwent rugby roundup. What's been happening, Gareth? Big win for Newport, wasn't it? It was a fantastic win for Newport. Newport are second. They're a long way behind Flandrevery, and Flandrevery do not look like they're slowing down. But Newport look all done for second, and I don't know. You didn't see it, but kind of in that Merthyr game, Lewis Lloyd, who's a Newport winger, makes one of the most ridiculous tackles you've ever seen where the Merthyr full-back is already celebrating in his head, and he's probably got 20-metre head start on the Newport winger, was caught up on him and brought in the ground after an amazing show of pace. I have to watch out there. I will watch out after we finish this pod. It's ludicrous. But yeah, 31-15 away win for Merthyr. Vale also won on the road at Osprey's new home ground, Bridgend. They won 36-13. Isn't that what they're trying to do? Go and play Bridgend? Anyway, I digress. And Pontypool also won at home at 20-13 against Cardiff, so good weekend for their sides in the Prem. Championship East. Cross Keys beat Rumney, Cardiff 21-10. Newbridge lost at home. First lost at home for a while for Newbridge. They lost 16-19 to Bedwas, and Penaltha lost 26-18 away to Aston Ronda. Individual won East. Monmouth beat Abergreyny 24-17. Unbeaten Brynmaw continue up with a 46-10 win at Risker. And in the clash of our youth rugby sides, NSD beat Douglas 24-17. You've done the double over my youth side there. And then Division 2 East. Ablairey O'Brien O'Gwent beat Galmedy 5-29 15. Killian lost 8-12 at home to Blackwood. Toldy Court lost 15-17 at home to Oakdale. Croeso Cilliog beat Newport High School Old Boys 21-14. Pilharriers beat Cwmbran 17-14. Lots of Newport Derbys there. And then in the Division 3 East, what I'm going to suggest might have been quite a miserable game. Abertussog beat Abercan 9-0. Have you ever played at Abertussog? I have I've been there. It is quite a windy place and I imagine it was wet. That must have been quite unpleasant for the spectators. But a good win for them. Chepstow beat Machin 13-10. Gwent lost 10-17 at home to Nanty Glow. And then my local side, RTB Ebbw Vale. You can see the floodlights from my mother's house. At home to Fleur de Lys in Division 3 East. In Division 4 East, Crickhowell beat Newpanteg 20-19. A bit of cracking in that. Crumlin beat Blackwood Stars 41-10. And then in the Division 5 Abersuchan lost 32-7 at home to Fordside. Pontyn Ffraith who were unbeaten as well beat Holybrush 21-8. And then in the Division 6 East, Derry beat Heartridge High School Old Boys 40-10. Nagle beat Trenant 24-20. And to De Grey and Sides beat Girlin 19-0. So, all the rugby that played in Gwent that weekend. Excellent. And Newport and Pontypool doing really well in the Welsh Premiership. Pontypool are 5th. Newport are 2nd. Ebbw Vale are 3rd. Yes, that's right. The Gwent Club's doing very, very well. It's good to see it. Llanddowri are the only side better than Ebbw Vale and Newport. And they are very strong. Llanddowri. But yes, I have been a huge fan of Neath's reaction online. I remember Neath being the baddies of Welsh rugby. And if you're a Neath fan, I don't mean that in a bad way. Because I idolise Kevin Phillips. He's still one of my favourite players ever. But, I'd like to see Neath revert into that. But there was a useful point in that for me. All that madness on social media. Ospreys don't want to play at, whatever it's called, the Liberties, Fonzie.com stadium, whatever it's called. Because it's too big and they're not filming. I get that. Fair enough. It's like the Lions in South Africa or India, playing 2,000 people in the 70,000 seat stadium. Not fun. But, why not the Knoll? It depends. It depends on what kind of maintenance needs to happen. Is it cheaper to do at Bridgend? Because it needs less work than the Knoll, which probably needs more work. How fit for purpose is the facilities? That has to be taken into account. It's got to be fit for purpose for a pro standard. And it's a bit like David Battris said, and he took the game up to Ebbw Vale, realised the infrastructure wasn't there. And he was honest. The infrastructure can't be at the brewery field either. I've not been to the brewery field since the 80s. It wasn't a great ground then, and I'm sure the Knoll isn't worse if anything. But they've had pro games at Bridgend, and they've had, you know, success at Bridgend, haven't they? So I think maybe. I think they'll plump the, you know, this sounds like a Swansea bloody ospreys podcast now, but I think they'll plump the Bridgend, personally. I think that's where they, because if you think about it, they've already moved the European game against Sale to Bridgend. So to me, it's like they're putting out the feelers now. They want St Helens on Sunday, but St Helens is not happening because St Helens has fallen apart. Like I said, it just depends on the facilities and how much it's going to cost to do it. You know, we've got a proper ground for our club. We are lucky in that respect. I was just about to say, so one of the things that's made me realise, you know, looking at the whole osprey situation and the crowd, we are incredibly fortunate to have Rodney Parade as our crowd. You know, people talk about Cardiff. Oh, it's in the city centre. You fall out of a pub, you fall into the crowd. Well, yeah, that's Rodney Parade as well. That is Rodney Parade. We are so lucky with our location and the pubs that surround us. And yeah, 3,000 at Rodney Parade. It doesn't look great, but the atmosphere is still pretty good. But when you put 3,000 in a 20,000 plus seated stadium at the Swansea.com, it doesn't look good. And there's no atmosphere. I've been to the Swansea a few times, you know, at that ground. It is a poor atmosphere, but it's the people that make the atmosphere as well as that. But I'm really, I'm fortunate, really, that we've got Rodney Parade as a sporting venue, because give me ageing city centre stadiums any day, that out of town, shiny brand new stadiums on a retail pub with zero atmosphere. Because that's what Scots got, that's what the Ospreys got, and it's shit. And Cardiff for a bit and then decided they didn't like it, didn't they? They went back to what they have, like a rugby ground in the city centre. They went to CCS, that was a disaster. So, yeah, we're very fortunate with Rodney Parade and the Alms Park, because I'm sure that money will be pumped into that by the new owners there. So, yeah, I just think we're quite fortunate. That was my takeaway from the Ospreys situation. Right then, I think we'll leave it there, Gareth. Thank you, as always, for joining me. So we'll be back next week where we'll chat Wales, see how they go on against Ireland. That's going to be a tough one, isn't it? Actually, yes, what's your prediction for that? Ireland 39, Wales 12. I got a feeling it's going to be 20 plus points. It could be very, very tough, couldn't it? So we'll look ahead to Dragon's daunting trip to Ulster. We may or may not have an Ulster fan with us. We'll see how we go on there. But, yeah, that is all for this week. Thank you all for listening. We'll be back next week. So, yeah, thanks for joining us. I will speak again soon, Gareth. Goodbye. Bye. Bye.