Cardiff Central - Full stadiums and happy faces

Carly and Karen discuss Carly's new job and her recent illness. They also talk about the surprising selection of Evan Lloyd and Mackenzie Martin for the Welsh rugby squad. They discuss the development of young players in Cardiff and speculate on the starting lineup for the upcoming games. They mention the possibility of Teddy being used as a six option and discuss the captaincy and line-out calling in the team. They also mention that Alex Mann, a new Wales cap, liked one of their tweets on Twitter. Hello and welcome to the Cardiff Central Podcast with me Karen Harris and Carly as always. How are you doing, Carly? Well, it's not a shame that I'm doing the intro. You're not Yeah, good evening. Yeah, so I started my new job last week. So first weekend back home because I've been having to stay with my parents for the short term. I got ill on the Saturday night. I'm sure I had nothing to do with that Cardiff performance, but the timing was not well. Yeah, so I've sort of been trying to build myself back up, had a horrific cough, blocked nose and stuff. Yeah, we sort of discussed maybe not mentioning the Cardiff performance on the weekend, but you've managed to mention it within 30 seconds of a minute. We'll come back to it. There's so much news going around. Obviously, yesterday was a bit of a chaotic day. Do you see any of that news coming at all? No. I mean, some of the players called up. I thought it was probably going to be them because no one else. But I mean, like the academic news is so left field. Yeah, I've said on a couple of things that there was a rumour going around and I've heard it, but I've made the assumption and here we go journalists making assumptions. It's always a dangerous task, but made the assumption that it wasn't going to be at the age of 22. I thought it might be 26, maybe 28, you know, later in his rugby career. But no, he's gone early, which I can understand why and obviously he can come back. But yeah, obviously a big loss for Welsh rugby. But it's probably as the Cardiff squad to focus on the positive aspects of that squad, which were 11 Cardiff players. And you mentioned there were a few surprises in there. Mackenzie Martin and Evan Lloyd are probably two of the biggest ones. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's not so that they haven't been great when they've had their opportunities with Cardiff. I feel like Big Mac probably needed a little bit more time, maybe could have done with another. I'm not sure if he is eligible for under-20s still this season or if he's just past the threshold. But you know, I thought another development cycle for him would have been better. You know, you don't want to be throwing him into the full senior game whilst he's still developing. But you know, even if he doesn't get on the pitch, being in training camp with Gatland and stuff, you know, he's going to come back and he's going to know exactly what he is. If you think about how much the likes of Azzurrati and Dobruchowski and Teddy have improved on the short times in the Wales camp, you know, it could only do good for him and it will let him know exactly where he needs to be awaiting the Gatland season. I said, Evan Lloyd, for me, I've had a bit of time to think about it. It was really out of the blue. But to me, I feel like it's probably because he's quite... I wouldn't say he's anywhere near Derry Lakes level yet, but there's an awful lot of similarities between the two. They're both converted eights, so they're quite good ball-carrying, they're very physical players. I mean, his line-out, what little line-out work he's had, because he's only really had a few minutes off the bench here and there, has been all right. So, you know, I think most of us thought if it was going to be any of the Cardiff Hawks, it was going to be Belcher, because of the form he has played, or maybe even Evan Daniel. I think Evan Lloyd is that much of a surprise. Everyone thinks Evan Daniel is the one who's been called up. Yeah, that is my bugbear recently, is the amount of people thinking that Evan Daniel has been called up, not Evan Lloyd. Yeah, it is the converted eight, Evan Lloyd. And you mentioned that about his converted eight, he's really got an added athleticism there. You see him, whenever he comes on to the pitch, he does offer extremely good line-speed in defence. That's one of the things I've noticed. He does bring energy. There's that clip where, as Jenkins is talking to him, saying, it's really good energy, just channel it and miss that another way. That's the bit where he needs to develop. It is a developing squad, a young squad. Evan's talked about it being, now, a team of 25, and that's probably why Belcher's missed out. Someone like Belcher, someone like Sam Harry, perhaps, missed out because he's looking for young guns who are going to take up the mantle in the future. Evan Lloyd is definitely one of those. I spoke to Griff Rees at the start of the season, and he was really excited about Evan Lloyd, and name-checked him as one of the players to look out for. I've made no bones about it, I'm a big fan of Evan Daniel as well, but Lloyd gets the nod this time. They must have seen something in him that they thought, we're going to take a punt on him. I think he's got a lot to learn. I still do. You'll probably know that, everyone will probably know that, line-out being number one at that. Any converted hooker has a lot of line-out work to do. You see Derry Lake is still learning that trade, even though he's played internationally, captained his country. Evan's going to have to work on it in the coming weeks, in the coming months, and hopefully he gets his opportunity. As I said, one of 11 Cardiff players. I'll just run through that. You've got a full front row, Donachowski, Lloyd, Azzarazzi. Then in the second row, Teddy got in, unsurprisingly for both of us, considering his form. Alex Mann, Mackenzie Martin and Jim Botham in the back row. So he's seven of the pack, which is brilliant going. Then I'm always scared I'm going to forget someone, but Thomas, Josh Adams and Cam Winnett, along with Mason Grady, of course. I don't think you could be surprised at many of those. Cam obviously fought to earn their first caps. What does that say about Cardiff's young guns and how it's been developed? They've been getting a lot of praise on social media in the last few days, haven't they? The Academy and Cardiff Rugby. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, especially what you're saying about, you know, because in Gatlin's presser he was saying about how he wants a younger, more, you know, he wants a dynamic, athletic pack, which is what most Cardiff forwards are, so they tend to be more athletic and dynamic. It does cause problems in other areas, but I'm guessing Gatlin thinks he can help them get away with that. At the international game, I mean, you do tend to get scrums and things like that. Yeah, interestingly as well, of the five new caps, four of them are forwards, which I think this is quite unheard of for Gatlin to have that many new caps in their squad anyway, particularly up front. I know we basically named a full, you know, seven of an eighth in the pack. I'd be very surprised if we see that, all seven of those out in one go during this. I think, you know, Teddy's probably going to get either some bench struggle, you know, it's going to be maybe in the middle or the end of the Six Nations. I think the second rose-wise is probably going to be a rotation of Beard, Rowlands and a new captain Jenkins, which, you know, congratulations to him on that, because, you know, that's a hell of an achievement to be captain in your country at 21, second ever after the great Gareth Edwards. I think it's an interesting one with Teddy in second row, because obviously with Will, there's only four second rows, Will Rowlands being one of them, obviously based out in France, Dav Jenks, another one based out in England, so they're going to get limited training time, especially in those fallow weeks and in those run-ups to the first game. So, you know, Dav Jenks, you'd expect them to start. Does Dav Jenkins and Will Rowlands work as a partnership? Sorry, does Dav Jenkins and Adam Beard, sorry, I should say, work as a partnership? That's a question I have. Are they too similar? So therefore, do you bring in a Teddy and a Will Rowlands to partner Dav Jenkins? I do think Teddy's got a chance and that's a chance to start. It's difficult with the form of Beard has been superb and obviously Will Rowlands has been brilliant for, well, years for Wales, hasn't he? So it'd be a difficult one to get into. But following, what, about 15 years of Adam Insurance and someone else, the second row is now probably our strongest position. Yeah, it's an interesting one. I mean, I don't think I've seen some Hugh Griffin from a star boy or cat boy, as he's apparently a nickname now. You know, he's been positing the idea that Gatland might see Teddy more as a six option, you know, and having that hybrid look. Well, I've seen other people say, I'm not too fussed on it. I think, you know, then you're starting to go down, you know, is he just going to treat him like this generation Seb? Well, you know, he got mucked about the position so much that he never really mastered any of them to where, you know, he probably could have played when he was at his full potential. Who partners who, I think is quite interesting, because I think it would depend on who he wants calling line next, because that's traditionally Beard's role, but David Jenkins himself is a competent line out caller. Do you want your line out caller and your captain being the same person? That adds some other complications to it. So it could be Owen. There are other things Gatland said that he's trying to ease Jenkins up to be a starter, but for me, if you call him captain, you know, you really should be looking to start him. You know, otherwise, you know, do the co-captain thing and, you know, maybe he comes off the bench and takes over the captaincy then. Yeah, I said Teddy's worked really hard for it. I think he's, you know, from last season he's improved so much and he was already pretty decent last season. I'd say other than James Fender, probably the best form lock in Wales. Yeah, completely agree. Sorry, I got distracted by our Twitter because we had a like on one of our posts by a very famous individual. A new Wales cap Alex Mann has just liked one of our tweets, which is quite exciting, which was reflecting a really exciting week, not just for him, but also for Cardiff fans, seeing him and Pam Winnett signing new contracts. Alex has almost provided the mate for me himself. But, you know, how important is it to see these two sign new contracts? You know, there's a cynical view of it, which is it's just before they get their Wales cap. So, therefore, financially, it's probably a better deal for Cardiff. But it's also a really important thing to nail these players down for long term and try and get them, well, they are the future of Cardiff, aren't they? And the future of Welsh rugby, even the present of Welsh rugby, by the looks of things. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, think about it. It was only a couple of weeks ago when we, you know, well, last week when we had Thomas Williams go and we were saying, oh, we're going to lose. We've got this brilliant team that's almost ready to break, you know, to gel and mix and they're all going to go. And now we're seeing the players we want to retain, say. You know, we've got Pam Winnett signed, Alex Manor signed. It sounds like Mason Grady is leaning more towards staying at Cardiff. Yeah, well, he's probably seen it as even if he takes, you know, doesn't get what he's earned in this time, he can rack up his Wales caps and then go get his next contract on big money or whatever. You know, maybe he just doesn't want to, you know, leave home. You know, he might enjoy where he is. My mum knows his mum. So, well, apparently she's threatened to go round to his house and tell him what four of you doesn't sign to Cardiff anyway. I can't wait to get in trouble with that when she listens to this. I will say that doesn't always work. A friend of mine, his name's not far from Seb and he's a big Scarlets fan. Despite all of us going to Glantab and he bumped into Seb at a pub once and said, you should sign to Scarlets, 100% sign to Scarlets. Obviously, thankfully it didn't happen from a Cardiff perspective, but it doesn't always work that way. I think players have their own minds. Yeah, I know, but I mean, like, you know, don't leave the wonderful Wales or go too far west. You know, they're two very different conversations. Yeah, I mean, we mentioned Alex Mann signing. Yeah, it's so good to see him getting rewarded for his form. I think he's been unbelievable for Cardiff. Saw some pretty crappy comments about him not being physical enough. I think that's bollocks. You know, you can't have a go at your six when a whole pack gets dismantled. You know, that's not, you can't put that on one player. He's a top tackle in the URC. Yeah, he's a top tackle in the URC and it's not like he's only just about holding on to these tackles. It's not the sort of tackle I make at six where I grab them and just get them down any way possible. You know, he's putting in shots and his reads are very good. And, you know, he will do that for 80 minutes and it will be the same intensity at the start and the finish. And, you know, he's a line-out option, which is always a bonus for a team with a wobbly line-out. The more people you can throw to, the more chance you have of getting one of them. Because it at least keeps the opposition guessing. You know, and he is incredibly athletic despite being able to slide people down in the old sort of down-and-dip style. And it is something I've been crying out, I've been saying in Wales, I've been crying out for ages. It's someone who can just get the bugger down on the floor. Especially with the preference of referees to reward the attack. To steal the ball in defence, you've got to have everything going right for you. That person's got to drop down quick and you've got to be on the ball even past it. You know, it's got to be that clean that having someone who will just chop and chop and chop all game long is an asset. Yeah, and we've got two of the best jackling sevens in British rugby at the moment, in Rafael and Jack Morgan. Obviously Morgan's injured at the moment, but, you know, they are two of the best at that style. So you chop them down, you get, you know, it's very simplistic to say bring back Lydian Woolverton-esque style, but that is what we're talking about really, isn't it? It's that chop them down and then go for the ball over the top. I think Mann has got a good chance to start. I think that six is an interesting one. I've also thought he may go with a Teddy or a Dabjanks. I don't particularly want to see that, but I do see that as a possibility. Do you think six is almost a, well, bar that option, apart from that, it's almost a straight shootout between Jim Botham and Alex Mann or even Mackenzie Martin and move Wainwright to six? Or do you see it slightly differently with anyone else? So I think at the moment, the way I reckon, you know, for when we've played our first game against Ireland, the way I see this back row going is we're going to have, it's going to be either Botham or Wainwright at six and the other one at eight. Probably Botham six, Wainwright eight, because I think Gatlin really likes Wainwright at eight at the moment and Alfred Sadd at seven. Even if he hasn't been in a lot of camps, he's, you know, he's probably the best hand at seven in that spot at the moment. I've made my feelings clear. I like, I can see why Botham's still an open side, but I do love him at eight. I think he's a fantastic eight, six option on that. And then I'd probably look at bashing him on the bench despite, although to be honest, given his not great foot and the fact he's struggling to get into the Dragons at the moment, for whatever reasons, I'm sure the Dragons Lair podcast will share their reasons. So there's an excuse to go listen to them. I think, you know, you know, then you might see a man, like some Alex Manns, or Mackenzie Marth come onto the bench. But it's probably going to be those four more experienced players first, and then you'll see the other two bleed in. You know, they might get a start again, you know, maybe in one of the latter weeks. But then it depends how Gatlin's thinking. I mean, I could be completely wrong and he goes completely experimental to go away to Dublin. Wouldn't be the first time he's done it. You know, but I think one thing I would say is don't expect us to come away with a grand slam this season. You know, this is clearly a squad and Gatlin said it, this is going to be a painful season because it's about finding out who I can work with and getting people into the system. So yeah, a bit like Sherratt at the start of the season, lower your expectations. You say that, but there's something exciting about Sherratt saying that, and then you've got three, four players that, sorry, four players in Mann, Martin, Lloyd and Winnett who weren't regular starters last season, who are now, especially in Mann and Winnett's case, you know, it was, everyone was calling for them to be in the squad because of their form, because of their performances week in, week out. Personally, I think I thought Mann, and that's nothing against both of them, I'm a big fan of him. I just think Mann is more of a, I also don't see Mann as an impact player as well, that would be my second point. I think he's a guy who churns out just consistent performances, chops players down, chops players down, chops players, and then if you need to change it in the final 20, change it in the final 20, but he's so consistently superb, and I'm not just saying that because I like that tweet, but I think he is consistent, and I really do enjoy watching him perform. So yeah, I hope he gets his opportunity sooner rather than later because I think he fully deserves it. Likewise, Cam, I think that's an interesting one now, especially with Lewis Hammett, it almost, well it does, it removes an option of full-back there, doesn't it? You're left then with the versatility of a Kai Evans or Johan Lloyd, plus a Josh Adams. I think if you play Josh Adams at full-back, you're getting two carded players in that back three because Grady goes on the wing, and Rio Diego is the other winger obviously, or you play Cam Winters at full-back. So I think the likelihood is there's two carded players in the starting back three for Wales, which is, yeah, I think it's a good thing. I know, well, I don't know if we want to talk about fan questions or listener questions, but one of the questions was should we be positive about having so many players in the squad, and I think 100% yes, because what does it display? It just shows that the pathway is working, and it has worked, and Griff Rees and Matt Sheridan, as they've had a lot of praise this week, deserve a lot of praise for what they've done with the youth set-up and bringing players through. I don't know if Harley feels differently, but that's our idea. Yeah, absolutely. It shows that we're holding up our side of the pro-rugby agreement. We're developing players for teamwork, which is ultimately what the WRU wants in the regions. Yes, we'll go into the more nitty-gritty and conspiratorial stuff another time maybe, but basically what the WRU want is a production line of talent for the international game, which fuels everything else, pretty much, because that's where most of the money comes from. So having 11 players in the squad shows, we're doing that. It's now the WRU and the money meant behind Cardiff to keep these players in the region, is to keep them at Cardiff. And that's on them now. Sheridan and Griff Rees have done their job. They have got international quality players to play. What we need now is to keep them here and to keep fuelling this factory, and then picking the right people to supplement that. And then maybe when it's time for some players to move on, they move on. As much as I want Thomas to stay here forever, we've got an Ellis Devon, we've got a Jamie Earl, and then we've got another academy lad who's already showing good signs. So we can afford to lose a Thomas because we've got, again, because they're doing their job, we've got the backups in place. So yeah, I think we should just be happy. I think we should be really happy. I'll be less happy when we get to the end of Six Nations and they're all injured. But that'll be a pod for a moment. At the moment, I'm happy because it shows we're doing something right. I have added my one, bringing a slightly negative tone to it. I'm talking about one player who is slightly unlucky, perhaps not to be part of the squad. We mentioned Belcher, but I think another one is Ben Thomas. We talked about him last week as a possible. I think having been name-checked as a versatile player that can play 10, he hasn't had much of a look at 10. And then you look at the type of 12 that Gatlin's gone with. Nick Tompkins, defensively, is solid, but he's also not a crash-ball 12. Neither is Owen Watkin, really. Both are defensively solid players, first and foremost, with a slight added playmaker element. We saw Tompkins show that brilliantly during the World Cup. Do you think Ben can count himself unlucky not to be part of the squad? Or do you think it's a case of just maybe not this one, but maybe one in the future? That's kind of what I'm hoping it is. But also, I do think because Gatlin's very much name-checked him at 10, I think it's because he hasn't seen enough of him at 10 to warrant that bit where he wants, where he's gone for the versatility. If you look at the three 10s who are in the squad, you've obviously got Costello, who's going to be our number one choice out back 10. How many can play 12? You've got the defensive game for it. I'm not sure I'd want him as my crash-ball, but then when you've got a George North or a Mason Grady outside you, it doesn't matter. You've got a crash-ball option. And then Yohan Lloyd and Kai Evans are these full-back 10s. So you've got these versatile players. So I think Gatlin, because Gatlin wants to keep these squads a bit smaller than they have been in the past, and I think part of the pro-rugby agreement is, again, to try and push these squads as small as feasibly possible, so that more players are available for the regions. So hopefully, maybe for the summer, he'll get that. Yeah, I think it's just because he's not been playing. I don't know if there's anything in it that, because he's not been picked, he wasn't picked for the Scars games because they went, oh, it's a big 12, and he wasn't picked to be at 12 for the Queen's game. Is that Gatlin in his head saying, well, maybe he's not able to cope with the physicality of that? I think that's bollocks. But is that the sort of picture that's being painted for Gatlin? Because I don't know how much he actually watches all the games, or how much he gets clipped up and then says, right, what's so-and-so's strengths and weaknesses? Well, he was really good against Dragons, but he didn't play against this, or he played fullback, which is not where Gatlin wants him playing. He wants him playing as 10 and 12. But I do think it's a bit of a shame, because I do feel like other players, Cardiff players, I feel, got the nod, even though Cardiff haven't really won that many games. They've been playing, you know, because they've been playing the Champions Cup, I feel like, you know, for the Morgan Morse-McKenzie-Martin debate. They've both been playing very well, but McKenzie-Martin's been doing it against Harcourt and Toulouse, and Morgan Morse did it against, you know, against the Pudge, you know, against Thurston Young and played teams like that. I don't know if that, I mean, that seems to be some of the stuff I've seen out there. But I do think he's quite lucky. Other than that, I don't think too many could be disappointed. I mean, I know with Carey's a name that always gets thrown up, particularly when you have a look at McKenzie Mathias coming to the squad, who's had a bit of a rough time with it this season. But I think Gatlin's just sort of decided he's not interested in that, and with Carey going to Sarri's, maybe he thought, well, you know, there's no point getting in this, he's going to become ineligible. Yeah, I can understand the Carey thing if it doesn't pan out. It's obviously sad for Carey and everything, but it's Gatlin's prerogative if he doesn't think he's worked hard enough for it, and that's that. The Ben Thomas thing, I'd throw his hands quite nicely into what we have to talk about. What you mentioned in the first 30 seconds of the podcast, which was the result from last weekend, we had an interesting chat last week about who we thought was going to be the 12-I set. And this isn't by any chance me going, I'm right and you're wrong, but I thought it would be Halle-Hollow because of the size thing, and it seems to be a trend that we've seen against Scarlett, seen against Harlequins, that Sherratt picked Halle-Hollow for his size against Esther Hazen. But it was an area that was exploited by Harlequins over the weekend, wasn't it? And they did take advantage a number of times off that 12-13 channel, didn't they? Yeah, I think as well, because Harlequins, although Esther Hazen is a big guy and he can do that crash stuff, it's probably one of the less used parts of his game, actually. He's such a good distributor, he's so quick that he can run around, he's on the wing more often, so actually then you end up slowing, so I feel like having a younger player in Ben Thomas actually gives you that speed in the midfield. Remember how he was coming back from some really tough injuries. I hope he doesn't take, because I know he doesn't listen to Bodden. Great, because I love him to bits. I hope he's not taking it the wrong way. But I don't think he's fully up at the speed, obviously not where he was yet, so I think he probably needs a few more games again. Because, bless him, he's had a couple of these injuries now and each one does take a little bit longer to get through. I've difficulty when he wants on it creaks in the winter, that's how crap a knee joint is. But I think maybe Ben Thomas actually probably was a better choice there. I think as well we missed out by not having Josh Adams, because he's out with some knee injuries by the sound of it. Someone from the wing who could probably take up a little bit more of a defensive role, that again helps. But I mean the whole team, you've got to say hands down the Harleys wins were unbelievable. They are such a good side and when they're on it, they're on it. Yeah, and definitely I talk about being right on one, I think I was wrong on the other, which was the prediction. I think I said I was quite confident that Cardiff would win. Yeah, look, first off I thought, well it is, there's two different halves in it. I mean that Harlequin's got stronger and stronger, Mark Smith was superb. I know I was sort of sometimes disparaging of him last week talking about it, you know, this kid to Mark Smith. But I think everyone's fed up of the hullabaloo around him, but he is a very good rugby player. And then when you've got players around him like Tyrone Green, like Danny Kaye, when you've got, that back row was superb on the weekend. I thought Chisholm, Will Evans, Don Brant or Don Barberas who's being called by David James on Radio Wales commentary. But I really enjoyed their performances, I thought they were superb in the back row. And then you add in Oscar Beird, who's been a find and a heart this week. Congratulations to his England call up as well, actually. Yeah. Because, you know, the way he's been playing, yeah, unbelievable. Also ex-Cardiff, ex-Cardiff man and man you'll pay with both of them for England scores. So that's two excellent Cardiff wingers who, you know, just said, we don't need them. They can go to the NFL or England, you know, they're short of many in players. Yeah, I'm waiting for the tweets sent to the English rugby Twitter. Because there seems to be one every time there's a Welsh saying that's the England B side. So we're waiting for the Welsh B side to be mentioned. But let's move on from that. But, you know, the hard wins were superb. There were so many great tries, so many great moments. I thought Tyrone Green, when he scored, I thought fully deserved. I thought he was possibly man of the match, even though I know Dan and Keir were into the end. That was a very narrative one, I think. It's one of my issues with TNT sports. I think they are very narrative driven on their manner of their play in the matches. Yeah, so Dan and Keir himself didn't think he was part of the match on that one. And, you know, by the second half, the forwards were getting such go forward for them. Every single carrier seems to be going forward. Dylan Lewis's try, for instance, seemed to be... That was so painful. I mean, well done, Dylan. You bastard. There was part of me when I was watching it expecting to go full football apology celebration. And I was a bit disappointed when he didn't say I'm not celebrating and all that sort of thing. But it's not really a thing in rugby, is it? I still wanted him to just give it to the big ones. And then when he won the penalty and got the try, and I was talking with Jamie on the rap, and he just went, if it was going to be anyone, it was going to be Dylan. Like, if it'd been a tight game and Jared Evans was fit, he'd have scored the winning penalty. Because it was just one of those... You know, he just had one of those vibes about it. I mean, it was never that close. I do feel the wind got knocked out of our sails right in the death of the first half of that try. And then they got a really quick one straight after. And I know I make a rule of not having to go to the officials. But how the hell can you not see six-foot-nine Ernhurst coming from the side of a fucking wall? In front of you? That's not the one that's going to let frustration wade. I know everyone's on about the try-saving tackle. I mean, they did ruin a perfectly good try-saving tackle, in my opinion. Because, you know, Mason Grady came from the opposite wing to make that. But for me, that was just so obviously egregious. And I don't think it would have made any difference to the game whatsoever, but it was just that... But it was so obvious. Like, the other one was a millimetre. I can't be one of those people who says, oh, if it zips out, just award the try. And then be moaning. I mean, it was a wonderful tackle from Mason Grady. It just wasn't quite enough in the end. I think I'm most ashamed about that, because I live said, that's not a try. Because the reaction of the player, the way the ball came out, I just thought, oh, I don't think he scored. And then the ref had given it. And once the ref gives that, it is very difficult to overturn. Because it is millimetres. It is uncertain. I just... I think Joy Neville got talked into it a little bit. I really do. I think there was an angle which looked like he scored, and there was an angle where he looked like he hadn't scored. I'm still convinced he hadn't. Oscar Bidd's lack of celebration suggested to me he hadn't as well. But anyway, I did feel that was a sucker punch for Cardiff. Because first half apart from that, you know, the start of the game, brilliant. Thomas Young back to his best. Clean heels Thomas, or whatever you want to call him. Definitely not clean heels Thomas, because that's horrendous. But he was... I mean, that's worse than your Thomas the 10 engine, mate. Thomas the 10 engine was good, and you know it was. But, yeah, I thought he was brilliant the first couple of minutes. You know, the second try especially, the offloads that lead up to it with Thomas Williams, that is, and Harry Millard in the lead-up. It didn't seem... It just seemed like Cardiff couldn't wrestle that momentum from that point, didn't it? And then it was wave after wave after wave. And the sucker punch of the Oscar Bidd try, having held out Harlequins for a good five, ten minutes up until that point, was a bit frustrating. And then, yeah, second half was all one way. Was there a... Is it simple to say the Bidd try was a turning point, or was that just a bit short-sighted to say? There are a couple of things. So, for me, I think it was... It's just, you know, they say the championship's minutes. By scoring, like, the last minutes of the first half and first minutes of the second half, you set the tone. And I do think, you know, it's... And, you know, it's... You know, it nags on you, and it goes in there. I think it led to some things being not so quick. One thing Jamie pointed out on the rap we were recording last night, it does happen with Cardiff. They seem to go all Gens blazing, like, in the first 20 minutes. So, unless we can put a game to bed in, like, the first half hour, other than that storm this game, we can't seem to wrestle it back. So, I don't know if that's a fitness thing. So, I'll see... What was the name? Was it Paul Bevan? No, Tristan... Tristan Bevan? The S&C coach who Dianne brought in. And I think he went with Dianne. Yeah. Yeah, and... Tristan Bevan, yeah. And, you know, they were gearing them up so that they were playing that high tempo. And I don't know if now they're not getting the S&C's training to be this high tempo, or if it's just because it's younger players, or if it's just because, you know, it's been a hell of a long... You know, that's a hell of a long block of games. I think the young players not seeing... Not just young players, but inexperienced players. Yeah. Tina says inexperienced players at this level. And I think that has been evident in a couple of games. I don't think he had his best game on the weekend, and that's not me digging him out. There was a number of players who didn't have their best game, that's for certain. You lose by that margin, obviously. The number of players who haven't had their best games. But sometimes I think there's been... We've mentioned it. There's a number of games this season that Cardiff should have seen out, and should have seen out in the opening 40 minutes, and not taken all their chances in the opening 40 minutes. I think this... I think the game on the weekend was another case of it. You look at certain moments, Thomas Williams breaking free and not taking advantage. There's certain other moments that I thought, hmm, there's a chance there. Not the Harlequins in the squad at the moment. I don't think I've ever been so frustrated as an opposition player as the Marcus Smith break from underneath his own sticks and then Will Evans kicks the ball away, even as a Cardiff fan. I was amazing at that. Was that going to be the try of the century? But yeah, it just seems to be a thing of not taking their opportunities to the extent they should in the first half, and then perhaps not having as much of a game management thing or be able to wrestle things away from opposition in the second half. There's going to be work-offs. It's a young team. It's an inexperienced team. But as we've mentioned, they are similar themes, aren't they? Yeah, as well. I think losing Cam Winnick quite early on as well, that seems to be quite a momentum wrestler as well. One, you have to stop the game from coming off the menu. He's almost the talisman for Leeds to carry this attack. Even when he's not necessarily involved, it's because the energy he brings on the pitch, and then you bring in Ben Thomas. I think we've always discussed, yes, he can play full-back, but we all pretty much see him as a 12. And then that means then Hellahole and Lilo are probably playing longer than... Ferris probably wanting to take one of them off after 50, 60 minutes. You can't do that, man. And that changes things there. I mean, plenty of players had great games. I thought Thomas Yeoman on his first game back, he took his brace well. Probably didn't get the reward over the ball that he'd wanted. I think he gave away a penalty, which I think was a little bit harsh. Yeah, I agree. I know which one you're on about, yeah. But, you know, again, this is going back to my thing of saying, referees are more likely to reward the attack and punish the defence, because we've all wanted these faster-opening, exploding, flowing games, so that's how the breakdown interpretation's got to go. Yeah, it's a shame, I mean, I said in the second half that Scruton got some altercates. No other way to say it, but you can have those days. I feel like it's one of those games they're probably not going to dwell too much on. No, and that's something they have to do, especially looking ahead, not just for the rest of the U.S. season, but the Champions Cup, because despite being bottom of Champions Cup pool 2 on just two points, there is still an opportunity, because of this format, of Pardiff reaching the round of 16 of both the Champions Cup or the Challenge Cup, and, OK, what they're saying, all paths lead to Rome, all paths go to Raf Singh, basically. Win at all costs, however many clichés you want to stick in this sentence, but it is a big game this weekend, and if they beat Raf Singh, I think this is my understanding of the permutation, so Ulster are away at Harlequins, Ulster are on five points, Cardiff on two, Raf Singh on three. If Cardiff beat Raf Singh and Ulster fail to beat Harlequins, then Cardiff will, sorry, and Ulster lose to Harlequins, Cardiff will qualify for the Champions Cup, is that correct? There will be some like bonus points, if Ulster get two bonus points, then that'll put us, you know, we might be on six and they'll be on seven. If we get five, then it goes into points difference, I think, because normally the next tiebreaker is who won out of the two of you, but we obviously didn't play each other because we have good URCs, and we've won the same number of games. The points difference isn't exactly in part to favour, is it? It depends how badly they lose, but it depends how well we, you know, if we did beat Raf Singh, we'd call something back, and, you know, Ulster probably didn't take as bad a battering as to lose, but, I mean, if Queens play like they did today, I think that actually they could probably do the same to Ulster as good as they've been. Yeah, I mean, there's that, if not, we're probably in the Champions, like, I think if we win, we're minimum Challenge Cup. Yeah. Which, I think, considering that group, which is a horrible group, isn't a bad, isn't a bad achievement, to be honest. I mean, it starts easy, and we said, I think a good result for us, in Europe this year, would be if we made the Challenge Cup, because, you know, we didn't finish last, which is exactly where everyone expects us to, you know, I mean, I don't want to throw the budget thing in again, but if you look at the teams we're up against, you know, I mean, I know you've got the salary cap in England, but if you look at how much money is going behind those teams, it's a lot more, and actually, although the WIU said they set the £5 million threshold to rival England, it's like, yeah, but you're not taking into account Marquee players, the England player rebate, and the Academy's rebate, so, you know, actually, their caps are actually probably close to £7 million. And then, Toulouse are running at, like, £10 million plus, you know, they, was that at one point they had four of the Six Nations international fullbacks? Yeah. Yeah. It was, well, you know, it was three, because you've got Kapuatsu, Ramos, and Kinghorne, you know, like, that's ridiculous. They could afford to let Jalibe go, and Colby go last season, isn't it, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, that's just mad. But, yeah, I mean, let's be fair, you know, we were never going to do anything greater than Toulouse, because, just look at how they played everyone else. I think, yeah, but at the same time, I'm also ready for Europe to be over. Yeah, I, I don't know, you know, I, I still think this ratting side are beatable. Yeah, let's talk about it, they have lost 3-3, okay, there have been mitigating circumstances around that, which is, they lost in the last minute to Harlequin, they were unlucky against Bat, you know, has anyone seen the highlights of those, of that game against Bat? The amount of, try-saving tackles that Finn Russell made, let alone, the rest of the Bat team, on, on ratting players, is, is unbelievable, but, I just, I, I, I personally would like to see Cardiff continue in Europe, I know you, you feel a bit differently about it, but, I just, even, even if it's the Challenge Cup, I think it brings, brings in, crowds, it brings in a different atmosphere, it brings in, just a lot, um, the revenue isn't going to be a bad thing, especially if they get an opportunity to play at home, I know that's unlikely with, with the situation, but, I just feel that, it would be a great opportunity for Cardiff to continue in Europe this season, especially when we don't know how often, they're going to have good runs in Europe, or, all teams in total are going to have good runs in Europe, so, um, I think ratting are beatable, but it is going to be a hell of a challenge, and ratting aren't going to focus on it, let's be honest, they're going to be, their minds are going to be on something else, but, we'll see, we'll see what team they put out. Thing is, if it was at home, if it was our home game, I'd be leaning more towards agreeing, but it isn't the Disco Dome, yeah, and you know, you know, a freezing, you know, I'm saying that, it's going to be Saturday afternoon, which is a really weird French kick-off, but, like, you're demanding to have the home game over, over a while, so, don't have the three o'clock kick-off slot, um, but you know, you know, you've still got so much quality in there, you've got Siku, Wokey, Khaleesi, Rolands, it's, Max, Max Blaine, which is a name that makes me giggle uncontrollably, if I haven't, like, mentally prepared myself to say it before, um, you know, uh, you know, you know, the new, the new, latest iteration of TNT Sports is Rugby Jesus, before he, before he signed Harry Arendelle, you know, there's a lot of talent there. I would be, yeah, I mean, we definitely could win, but, I think everything would have to go right, and if you look at some of the players, we've got unavailable, so, uh, so this is to Simon Thomas, who posted yesterday, so, Josh Adams is out with knees, uh, Belcher's, Belcher's, um, been his shoulder, so he's not available, uh, Cam Winnett's cracked his jaw, um, on the Cam Winnett thing, so it's very unlikely we'll see him in the Six Nations, still sort of, midway through, so I think, Gatlin said he's going to definitely miss the first two games, but the fact he's been important to Scott says to me that he's going to try and give him some game time, um, yeah, so then, I think, yeah, Shane Lewis-Hughes as well, still injured, I mean, I'm not saying the cover's there, but, it's going to be interesting, because we will have Evan Lloyd and, Evan Daniels, they probably, you know, probably Daniel Starr, Lloyd on the bench, um, yeah, and then we'll see what, I don't know, because I think, Dom Cherewski took a bit of a knock as well, but, I just assumed that was just, the usual tactical swap with the prop, the prop changeover. It's, it's a winner takes all clash, and I think, I think that's when, yeah, you can throw caution to the wind, if, if Cardiff get a great win out in rafting, that's a brilliant result, um, out in rafting, out in Paris, it's, it's a great result, and I think, likewise, rafting ultimately is going to blow out, um, so, I, I think, again, we're talking about good games, and all the games in this pool have been particularly good, you know, all, all the teams are known for wanting to throw the ball around and play attacking rugby, which does seem to be the new, common denominator in size, in general, but especially these, these, the six teams that are in this pool, so, um, I think it'll be an exciting game, I, I, it is an uphill task, but, I don't think it's an insurmountable task, which it would have been, had we been going to lose, I think. Yeah. I think it's a game which, is a possibility there, which I know is the hope that kills you, but, there's a possibility there of a good result, and, um, hopefully, Cardiff can, can manage to pull one out of the bag. Um, do you want to go to, some, list of questions, before we, move on to some of the other, other stuff that's going on? Um, sure, yeah, if you've got, anything, I said most of them, said there's a lot around, revolving around the Wales squad, who do we put, you know, do, you know, how do we realistically think we're going to sign people? Yeah, so that, that was one, uh, given by, uh, Gareth Gilbury, uh, can the club realistically bring in players in the summer, and if so, who is on the radar, thinking in particular, of half-backs, second row, and maybe hooker? Um, Harley, do you want to start that one? Um, I'd say half-backs, I'd say, I mean, certainly the scrum half, I think they are probably, will probably be alright, and I think they'll try and make do with Ellis Bevan, Jamie Hill, and then, you know, the third, third option, you know, they may be bringing up, a replacement, I don't, I'm not convinced, I mean, Thomas is going to free up some money, I think, in all the likelihood, we're probably going to lose Adams and Salasso as well, so, I don't know how much headroom that gives me, obviously, because we're losing another £700,000 from the cap, but, maybe the new investors will say, well, we'll give you this much foot to keep a big name, you know, because we are going to be allowed a marquee signing, it won't count. Um, I think, I think, I think, I think, it won't count. Um, I think, Halifax, probably, we either need to decide, are we going to keep our Robson, you know, because he's not really played for us, he's played a bit for the Rags, but, if we're serious about keeping him in the squad, he needs to start getting some game time, I think, for me. Um, and then, if not, then, yeah, then you look to bring someone in, I don't know who. Um, for me, I'd say, probably another second row, because I think Tamani's contract's out as well, so, so it'd be nice to get, someone to show up there, I think hookers, I'd say the three hookers we're using at the moment, I think, do it, are more than doing their job. You'd probably look, maybe another loose head, because we're getting, you know, if we're losing carry, and again, I have no names about that, and, you know, maybe they can look at, uh, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe talk to Bennis and Zebra, see if they've got any players who have, shorter game time with their, like, 60, 70 man squads. Uh, or maybe, so, the top 10 in Georgia, or something like that, you know, or, you know, we'll have another little dip into the carry cap. Hmm. See if there's any stones in rough. Yeah, I, I agree on hookers, and, and loose heads, I think loose heads is, is one, obviously, if, if carry moves, and that situation, um, well, it's obviously the when carry moves, really, isn't it? It seems almost nil, but, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,