Cardiff Central: Ben 10: It's hero time!

The Cardiff Central Podcast discusses nominations for the Cardiff Central Awards. They also discuss news about Teddy Williams and Cam Sheegly's injuries, as well as the retirement of several players from Cardiff RFC. Morgan Allen is praised for his contributions to the team. The podcast also mentions Cardiff Met going on tour to South Africa and the possibility of players transitioning to more developmental roles. The focus is on developing young players in the Cardiff region. Welcome to the Cardiff Central Podcast. Hello and welcome to a very special Cardiff Central Podcast because we are going to the polls much like the country. We will be later on discussing our nominations and are drawing up a shortlist for the inaugural Cardiff Central Awards, but first of all, just an introduction. I'm Harley as ever. I'm joined by Dan and Karl, and he's trying not to laugh out loud during this intro piece. How are we doing, gentlemen? I'm just impressed with the preparation for the intro this week. It's good. It's good. It's like Madhawk. You shouldn't have asked that, but I've just been like, well, yeah, me and my team will be working on it. It would have been better if you got somebody with a massive speaker to play. Things can only get better in the background, as you can now see. Surely the song for a Cardiff podcast would be Pride or something, or Proud Mary. All right. So we will get on to our awards a bit later on in the pod, so first of all, let's just quickly round up some of the news, some small, some not so small. So starting off, it's been confirmed Teddy Williams is out until start of next season, having undergone shoulder surgery, and to join with that, our new signing, the prodigal son is returning into the rehab room, as Cam Sheegly, unfortunately, did his PCL, I believe. Dan, was it PCL? Alex Bywater in the Daily Hill reported PCL after it looked initially like he'd done his Achilles or something, because it was non-contact and looked seriously bad, but PCL is just less bad, but it's not 12 months out. Yeah, it's more likely four to six months as opposed to 12. From what I've seen, Teddy should be fine from the start of next season. I'm entirely gutted, because he had a big opportunity this summer. Especially with a beard injury. Yeah, you would have thought he'd be third cab off the rank in the second row, well, depending on what you think of Shunzo as a second row of six, but without giving Harley a pass at this point. But I think... He annoyingly breaks my rules. He just went into second row. But no, I get it for him, because it would have been a great opportunity for him, especially when he's had such limited time in a wheelchair. Yeah, really tough break, and wish him all the best in recovery. Yeah, absolutely. And the same for Shido as well. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, he's absolutely kept in his first game since last year, and he had a bone injury like that. Anyway, other small bit of news is Dayong has got... Speaking of prodigal sons coming home, Dayong has taken up a position with Aberdare to run alongside his role as director of rugby for Cavoc. So, you know, all the best to him. You know, and I hope, you know, I hope Aberdare have a good season. And I think in the new revamped championship, I don't think the details are out yet. They came out today. They are in the championship for next year. Championship, yeah. Yeah, because I feel like, you know, being split up to the premiership would have been a bit soon. So who are they with there? Just out of interest. What sort of teams do they have to compete against in the championship? Tomaheck. Glam Wanderers. They didn't get promoted from that, so they're still in it. I think Cardiff Met are staying down there, aren't they? I think Cardiff Met may have got to the prem. I think they snuck one of the last places from the current championship. Who else was down the bottom there? Oh, NSV with a certain Jason Telby of Fly Half will be in there next season. They've been promoted from their Division 1 as well. Is he playing or is he coaching now? He's doing both. He was playing at 10 and 12 for periods last season as well, which, I mean, I'd pay to go and watch NSV if Jason Telby's a crash ball 12 there. I'm wondering if he's meant to be the defensive solidity in phase 12. I'm just thinking about what the NSV preseason's going to be like. It's like if Ronald O'Gara would play 12. Who's the 10 that needs safeguarding and Ronald O'Gara has to be the 12th? Similar with Telby, really, isn't it? It's a bit harsh, maybe, on Telby's defensive. He wasn't that bad. He would make business decisions, though. Let's be fair. I think even he would admit that. I'm pretty sure I'm not misremembering. I'm sure I saw somewhere where it said, whilst tapping is what your back grows for. Speaking of Cardiff Met, they are going on tour to South Africa. That was something that I almost forgot, but that was announced today. I haven't got any more details on that. Maybe we'll discuss next week when we've got a little bit less to talk about. Leading on to the big chick, big, big news. Just before that, we've got the rags of an NSV leader's list. Do you want to just take everyone through some very well-known and loved names? Yes, a couple of fringe guys, the guys who've just come in during the season. Olly Evans, Eddie Drake, the two loose heads. There was Freddie Barnes, who's been around a little bit after graduating Cardiff Uni at Tight Head. Jacob Lloyd as well, who came in from Treorchy at full back. Then, the guys who've been around a bit the last few years. Harrison James, the fly half, who's stepped in where Fishie left quite well this season at points. Aaron Pinches, who's been a great pick-up. He was probably 32 or 33 when he arrived, but he's been really solid in that 12 jersey. He's played the majority of games over the last two or three years. We knew about James Beale on the wing. He's been at the club forever, really. Overcome a really serious foot injury, but scored a hell of a lot of tries off that right wing in his time. Then, Joey Tomlinson. He mentioned after the game against Llanderferi that he was retiring as well. Had lots of injury problems this season, but a great career for him. He was captain when we won the Welsh Cup again in 2019. Went to Canada for a bit, played a bit for Toronto Arrows and the MLR out there. Then, he's come back. Obviously, the big name. I think everybody is gutted to see Morgan Allen leaving. Proper talisman eight. Obviously, the Rags don't get as much coverage as the first team. They've been semi-pro and that. I do think he goes down as a proper club legend. He's put the Rags on his back at times. Literally, all of us forward. Some of his tries are a joke. He looks like he's playing against small children as he just skittles them all out the way. Obviously, he's playing, but as a leader as well. You look at the guys that have come through the Rags into the first team, into the Wales team. They'll have learned a hell of a lot from somebody like Morgan Allen. Guys like Pinchas and Tomlinson as well. James Beale. Their legacy is the trophies that we've won in the last few years, but also guys like Cam Wynne, Mackenzie Martin, even a bit further back. James Botham will have been with Morgan Allen. Ben Thomas as well. That's their big legacy for Cardiff and for Welsh rugby. The players that they've helped develop in the latter stages of their careers. That's it. I don't have much to add. Apart from Morgan, what a player he's been. It's interesting to see what people think. If he goes down as a Cardiff legend or not, I'd probably hear or not. I've just got a mind crush on him, mainly. Maybe my bias against him would be bandied around a bit. At the same time, if you look back at the last two seasons, and that's one guy that you could always... If you were to ask the layman, name a Cardiff RFC player, Morgan Allen would be the player. Name me who's likely to get mad at the match. Morgan Allen. It seemed like that was week in, week out. I think that's not just because the layman doesn't have enough information. It's because that is the name that constantly came out in any match report, in any clips on social media. Anything that was Cardiff were doing well, Morgan seemed to be right at the heart of it. I completely agree. What a player and what a time he's had at the club. Having said he's not a legend, I'm giving him a piece of the prize. Maybe I'll save my mind. Maybe we can throw that out on social. He's definitely up there. Absolutely. I'm guessing this is just a case of transitioning more towards the development, the more developmental side. I think Pinchas and Tomlinson have called it a day. There's a suggestion that Beale's retired, but I'd also heard that he might have gone to Tandoveri, so I don't know what the exact case is there. Morgan Allen's being linked with Pontypool again. He almost signed for them last season and then came back. The thing with these guys is that it is around their day jobs as well, so it's got to be what works for them outside rugby. They're not that young anymore. It's got to work for the Rags in terms of our succession planning as well. If we're saying Evan Rees is going to be the next number eight for the first team, then as good as Morgan Allen's been, Evan Rees is going to have to play. If we then say to Morgan Allen, look, you're going to play maybe half the games that you did last season next season, he'll say, okay, don't worry, I'll go and find somewhere I'll play every week then, because we do have to bring Evan Rees through at some point. When Griff was on this club a couple of weeks ago, and we'll try and speak to Fishie at some point over the summer as well, I know he's head coach, but those guys have always got an eye on two or three years as well as just next season. I'd be interested to know how much of that is players, is them knowing now that the majority of the academy players are probably coming through Cardiff. Not that they weren't before, but probably even more so going into... Highlands now, yeah. Yeah, with them being the only club that are in Super Rugby Cymru of the Cardiff region clubs. And yeah, I think the main idea behind Super Rugby Cymru is to develop the youngsters coming through, and that's the priority and has to be the priority, or certainly is the priority in the minds of the people in charge. I did say I was going to put a little plug in, but that's what John Alder was saying on the Sporting Wales podcast this week. John Alder, WBO's Head of Performance Pathway, and that is the important thing is we are looking at that succession planning and trying to develop that area of the game now. And whether you think it's right or wrong, that is why it's a close-off league with no relegation to try and help clubs and try and basically say to clubs, right, there's no trepidation of dropping down the league, so therefore play your youngsters and give your youngsters an opportunity, and that works all through the league and probably that's going to be a case. We're going to see quite a few of these more experienced heads perhaps not getting the opportunity they were in the Welsh Primership going forward. You're going to need to have a few of them, the likes of your Adam Warrens, and it's a shame that Morgan Allen isn't there to sort of help these players coming through, and it's that balancing act, isn't it? When does an experienced player become a blockade for young talent coming through? And we've seen it at different clubs, maybe you could suggest Scarlett's haven't managed to get that balance, and then you could see other clubs that have not, you know, Cardiff maybe on the vice versa side, probably haven't had that balance in the other way, where a lot of the experienced players have gone, so it's a difficult balance to have going forward, I think. I would say that, obviously, the squads in the semi-pro, it doesn't necessarily mean just that somebody's not on that leavers list, they won't be leaving as well, it's always a bit of flux, but the rags, if that is the only leaver, they retain, you know, Jason Harris is still there, been there and done it across the back line, Tom Haberfield's not on that list, been there and done it in nine, a couple of guys now who've been in that semi-pro squad for a bit as well, I would say, you know, somebody like Derry Cross is getting really experienced at that level, Joe Goodchild, Sean Moore's been around quite a long time now as well, Alan Rees, a hooker, you know, there is still that senior group of semi-pros there at the rags, it's just those, the more recognisable names for the last few years moving on a bit, but the average age will still be, you know, decently high with those sort of guys around. It's so important as well to have those guys, like people talk about it and I think it's difficult, but the whole importance of setting standards and having that person that you can turn to and see what they're doing week in, week out in their preparation for, you know, something that's going to come up in talking to one of our founders about their column this month, and that's exactly what they're talking about, is having these experienced heads that you can just look at and go, oh shit, he's doing X, Y, Z, this is what I need to be doing this week, why aren't, you know, he's spending an hour kicking after training, and it might not be as simplistic as that, as watching someone doing an hour of kicking after training, it might be something as like minuscule as he's tidying up after training, but it's those small little bits that teach you what a professional rugby player or semi-professional rugby player does, and yeah, and there's bits of analysis as well on top of it, so yeah, it's a balancing act, I'm hoping they get the right balance moving forward, both Cardiff and all the other clubs in the Super Rugby, because it's a very important one for the future of Welsh rugby. Yeah, absolutely, as you sort of led into, so the big story, Sunday nights, in typical WRU fashion, they dropped the format for the new, the Elite Development Competition, which is being rebranded as Super Rugby Cymru, so this is going to be a regular season of 18 games, nine home, nine away, ending with every single team getting a knockout fixture at the end, so two wild card, two wild card, almost round of 16 type things, with 7th place 10th, 8th place 9th, so going to the quarter finals, we also have our own version of the Round 30 Shields, which is going to be held by Flandovery at the start, as the premiership winners for this season, and during the Six Nations we're also going to get a cup competition, two pools of five, top of each pool play each other in the final. Jens, what do we think, what do we make of the whole format so far? I'm not a big fan of everyone getting the chance to be in the knockouts, I'm going to counter that in a second, but go on. I'm just not a big fan of it, we've watched quite a bit of ice hockey this season, and it's a 10 team league, and eight of the teams get into the knockouts, and you get to one stage of the season, where teams 1 to 4 are just playing out their fixtures, and it just gets a little bit bland, and that's my opinion, I get why they've done it, but that's my honest opinion, I'm also not a fan of getting rid of relegation, and I know both of the reasons why they've done it, is to instil and encourage them to play their younger players, but that's my main issue with it. Sorry Hal, you were going to counter, so I was waiting for you. Because I hate it, because I hate the fact that Super Rugby is a 12 team league, and they have top eight get through, and similar to what's happening with European rugby at the moment, but I think because it's a developing competition, one of the big issues that we're seeing is, we don't have players who know what it's like to be in these knockout games, on rare occasion they do, because they never play a knockout fixture, so actually by everyone having it, you're giving all the younger players the experience of knockout fixtures, but I don't want the Chinese to leave later on, and give that same review in later tournaments, but for me I think it's important that they all experience knockout rugby, even if it is just one game. Sorry, just to jump in, I'd say Kamal and Quinns, just because they're the lowest team that are going to go into that, you play your youngsters throughout the season, and then you get to the knockout opportunities, and you think there's a chance of silverware here, I'm going to play my best team, and you end up playing all the experienced players, and you drop your youngsters just for the playoffs, what's to stop you doing that, and therefore the youngsters don't get the experience of playing these big games, the youngsters don't get the experience of having these opportunities, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, it doesn't sit well with me to have a 10 team league, and there's very little benefit from being first to 10 in a way, I know the seeding is different, and you get buys and stuff like that, but in terms of ensuring that you get into playoffs, there's no benefit. I think as well, I mean to go with the first point, because I do agree on the second principle, but from what it says, there's going to be allocations, and you've got to have a certain number of academy players in your team, and also because of the salary cap only being £150,000, you can't really load your squad that way anyway, so it's got to be filled with senior academy players, or people who have recently been released from academy, so I think that's... Yeah, I do agree with that. At base I do think shiver rugs is a good thing by the way, but this is just my small issues I've got with certain things, and I think the rebrand was a good idea, because it was rather too similar to a far right movement, so it's a good decision to rebrand I think. Dan, one thing you highlighted before we get your general thoughts, was about the derby weekends either side of Christmas, and I agree with you, I think that's actually a fantastic little bit to again, it's given them that experience of big proper derby games. Yeah, I mean, to sit on the fence, I have no strong feelings either way about the play-offs thing to be honest, but I think it's a really good general season structure, the way that the fixtures have come out, the amount of games that there are, because you had a couple of the EDC naysayers giving it, well, you're only going to play in seven games a year, so what's the point? But I think it's 24 games are guaranteed, or something like that, when you factor in the cup and your one guaranteed play-off, which is I think the Rags played 27 this year, so there's no real change there, 24 higher quality games is as good as 27 games in the current league. Yeah, fixtures look really decent, like obviously skipping that November period, the cup then will be probably almost a development competition, within a development competition, because obviously it's Six Nations time, so the under-20s will be missing, so it'd be more about using the wider squad, and probably a good chance for clubs maybe to pick up a couple of permits, from the lower leagues who also tend not to play in the Six Nations, and have a look if guys in there can step up, so as John Alder talks about on Sporting Wales podcast, about widening the net, it does that again, it gives more players a chance to play at that higher level, and get into the environment with the Super Rugby Cymru club, so I think, quite weirdly to say for a Welsh Rugby Union competition, but it's come out in good time, and it looks sort of half coherent, which is, yeah, it's a change from the norm, but hopefully it stays. I'm doing a better plug for the podcast than I do. I completely agree with what Dan said though, and I do think it's a positive thing, I really do, and I do like that there's change, and we were talking about it before the part with me, and saying that whether you think it's a good thing or a bad thing, at least it's not the status quo, and I think things needed to change, and they have made changes, they've made changes to the Schools and Colleges League, they're now making changes to this league, they've made changes in the women's game with the PDCs, this is positive, they are trying to make positive changes, whether or not you agree with them, maybe not, but at least it's not the status quo, which I think is a really good thing. Yeah, absolutely, there's no point moaning about the status quo, and then doing nothing about it. Exactly. Good to hear. So just a few other little bits, so as I said there's salary cap of £150,000, that all the teams agreed to, there are going to be some allowances for dual registered players, which I don't know if that's Premiership players on permit coming up, or if it's first team that's coming down, and like the Senior Academy, there's also going to be some allowances for recently released players, from either the under-18s or Senior Academies, which I think is a good way to accommodate for the region not being able to keep everything they want, but also keeping them in this competition, so yeah, match funding. Sorry, one of the important parts of that is to try and encourage those players that take a bit longer to develop, so you're talking about your tight end props that perhaps are, I was going to say piss poor, but that's a bit harsh, are maybe not up to the grade at 21, but maybe in four or five years time, could be regional quality, maybe even better than that, and it's about those players and ensuring that they still have a place in Wales to play, and an opportunity to shine, and I think that's a brilliant thing, I think it's really important, and a great incentive to bring in. Absolutely. Any other comments before we move on? I just realised I sounded like a backtrack from the start when I criticised one bit, and I was supposed to be positive about this, but I am mainly positive about it. No, I haven't got anything else to add. Yeah, it'll be an interesting one. Right, so now we'll move on to last weekend's game, because it was a win for Cardiff, which is something that we have not said very often on this podcast, as was tweeted out by Dan, we got the right kind of bonus point by scoring four tries. So just before we give you our thoughts, I'm just going to read some of the three words of thoughts that we got from the Twitterers and Facebook, so, bloody brilliant win, thanks a lot finally, at last, wonderful, never in doubt, finally a win, guess which one was big T? And then on the Facebook we had, much needed win, then at ten, and what I very much agree with is sign up Lawrence. I think that's sort of, I think for most of us that covers it, it wasn't necessarily the prettiest win, but it was a win, and it was a piss poor shark's eye, but I mean, if they're going to disrespect, I said this on rap, if you're going to disrespect Cardiff, a team you've not been able to beat in the URC so far, by putting out a second team, then you don't deserve to win either. Especially after that first ten minutes, where they refused so many kickable points, which, you know, Carl was happy about. Yeah, they listened, it's good. Well, no, I'm saying it's a chance you didn't get. It was just, we needed to win, and it was, by any means necessary, it didn't need to be the prettiest, it was maybe, I saw a couple of people mention it, as possibly a performance of the season, but I feel like that's maybe more of a relief type aspect, of just blindly getting a win, which we, you know, you can't say you deserve anything in professional sport, it doesn't work like that, but if there was a group of players that, like, sort of, you felt should be rewarded for something, it's this group and this staff, and as a supporter as well, it was nice for us to watch them win. You don't really realise when you're in it, but, you know, it was ten games or whatever, the losing streak, it was quite a long time since we'd lost one, this calendar year, but, on the whole, first 20 minutes defended really well, Sharks started quite quick, Josh Adams, that turnover was superb, on our own line, the red card is an absolute horror show of a tackle, I mean, it is a stinker. I think it could have easily been two cards. I don't quite know how Frank took so long, to be honest, but, anyway, the only other thing I'd add to that is, I mean, Winnie stayed on the pitch as well, to be honest, because he looked out when he hit the ground. I don't think it's a slight on our medical team as such, I think, world rugby should be mandated in there, that if you, if there's a red card for head contact, the player receives it, should automatically go for a HIA, I don't, I don't really see how they don't, but, but after that, then, I thought it was massive that we scored straight away, because we've seen us this season, go up against teams who've had yellow cards. And, I, the sense I get is that we like, we feel that we have to score so badly in that 10 minutes, that we end up, like panicking or like the pressure, we just can't deal with it. But scoring from the penalty that, we received from the red card incident, they just settled everybody really quickly. And, from there on, then the rest of that first half, you know, they weren't particularly pretty choice. Halaholos is classic Willis. But, other than that, you know, it's all, like more stuff from pick and go and that, but, it was just clinical. We got into the red zone. We didn't mess up. We didn't lose the ball. We were relatively patient with what we did. A little bit of magic from Alan Lawrence, who was fantastic on the day. Real shame he went off early. He was a shoe-in for man of the match, otherwise I would suggest, but, yeah, did what we had to do. Second half, a bit disappointing. The subs ruined the flow slightly for us. They didn't quite come on and hit the ground running. I thought, where we were, we could have been just a bit more patient with our attack, build some phases through midfield, but we went to kick quite a lot. And, in terms of managing the game, that's not a bad thing. I think I'm probably being a bit picky, maybe, and saying that maybe at 29-7 up, we could have afforded ourselves just to take the reins off a little bit and try and see what we could do in attack and build some phases. But, in terms of being sensible and keeping the Sharks down the other end of the pitch, it was probably the right way to go. But, yeah, all in all, I think a solid 7 out of 10 performance and a bonus point win to take back. I can't ask for much more than that, really. Yeah, talking about building an attack, so just the bit that URC send us, send all us podcasters about stats and publish on the website as well. So, yeah, a big collaboration. James Botham got the most turnovers with three, but also score a try. So, TARDIS made the fewest carries out of any team, but still scored five tries. I'm very impressed. We managed to carry exactly 69 times, which is an immature person to make this point. But averaging 4.9 metres a carry, which is the highest of any team in the round, so that's good. We had 91% tackle success, which I know isn't everything, but it's, I mean, if you are getting high 90s, that's a good sign that either the attack, the opposition attack shit, or your defence is at least holding together. Well, your shark's only got 71%, which is when you do start getting worried. Yeah, we kept sharks to just one clean break, which is, and only 11 defenders beaten, which is the lowest, for both of the lowest in the league this round. So, that's quite promising for us. Yeah, I thought Alan Lawrence was in next. Can win it, even despite, you know, trying to savagely take him out of the game, still ruled the skies. Yeah, as I said, it probably wasn't the prettiest performance, but quite happy with it. What did you make of it, Colin? Yeah, just so you're reading off those stats, and those are the stats I'd expect from a side that were playing against 14 men. And that's not me being harsh, that's actually me, for once, a Welsh side have played well against 14 men. I haven't seen it for a long time, or 14 women, for that fact. And it, it sounds like another rap, but it's genuinely the case, and I thought it was a really professional performance. It was a way to put away a side that were down a player, and echo Dan's thoughts on the red card, jeez Louise. I was stood in the Osprey's press room for that one, and Tocliffe came in, and was like, what do we think lads? And we all looked at it, and went, sheesh. Like, you know, tucked on. Anyway, moving on. But, yeah, I don't know how long, why that took so long. Ben, brilliant at 10, and, you know, performing well. I thought he spoke so well, was it last week in, in interviews. The, the things about feeling low, and the feel about, you know, coming back and performing well. Brilliant. Really, really good post-match interviews. Some really nice, pieces done on that, and worthwhile done, because, spoke so well on it. And it was nice to see so many, players that have played with him, coming out and, you know, I even saw, I think Jamie Hill, put something out commenting about it, it was really nice to see, the outpouring of emotion for him, really, wasn't it? After what's been, a difficult few years. Speaking of Jamie Hill, I saw some clips of his, down in, Australia as well. So, before getting off topic, more, more, more and more. The interesting one is Ben Thomas, obviously, from that game, I think, because, I'm not going to say, I told you so, because it doesn't, it's not at all. But, you know, from the perspective of wanting to see, him at 10, at the start of the season, which I, I did, so I know Gatlin did, and various, not that I've got, speed asked Gatlin, but he has commented about it in the past. And it's nice to see him, getting the opportunity. Tinus has been brilliant, but, I, I do think there's an opportunity there, to trial him out, more. And after that performance, I, I, I suspect, he will start at 12, against Offspring. But, there is an opportunity there, for maybe him to get into the 10 shirt, or, in the 22 shirt, for Wales come the summer. And that's what I, I'd like to see, because I, he deserves to be in that 23, he deserves to be on that plane to Australia. And, whether that's a 10 or 12, I hope it happens, after a brilliant performance, good shots. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And also, 4 out of 5, 4 out of 5, well, yeah, 4 out of 5 kicks. No, did he, no, it's more than that, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, because he did, he did a couple of penalties as well. I know he missed a conversion, and I don't think, I think he carried them. Yeah, which, it was a difficult one. Which, you know, maybe also vindicates something else, we've been saying on the part of, maybe take that pressure off to Deer. I mean, you know, sometimes you like to be, to be the man and do the kicking, but, at the end of the day, especially the margins we've been losing by, this season, having a 90%, you know, an 80 to 90% goal kicker is, is invaluable. It's interesting that Thomas kept the tee when De Beer came on as well, that he just kicked all the way through, which suggests that, you know, De Beer was happy for him to do that, so they can hopefully, the other thing I'd say about his kicking, is he kicked beautifully, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,