Overcoming Rejection-Interview with Dr. Alain Gauthier

The podcast is about the struggles and experiences of individuals who were rejected from medical school. In this episode, the host interviews Dr. Alain Houthier, a family physician who had to apply to medical school seven times before getting accepted. Dr. Alain emphasizes the importance of perseverance and having a strong support system. He shares his own journey, from growing up on a farm and initially considering veterinary school to eventually pursuing medicine. He discusses the challenges of transitioning from French to English and the difficulties he faced during his studies. Despite the setbacks, Dr. Alain's determination and support from his parents helped him stay focused on his goal. He eventually earned a PhD and gained acceptance into medical school. Dr. Alain advises aspiring doctors to lean on their emotional support and view the journey as valuable experience. He emphasizes the privilege of becoming a doctor and the importance of humility and gratitude. Dr. Alain shares Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Rejected Pre-Med Podcast. This is a podcast for those who, like me, got rejected from medical school and are now trying to figure out what next steps to take and how to stay happy and peaceful in the process. In this episode, I'm honored to be interviewing Dr. Alain Houthier, who's a family physician and he practices anesthesia in Perth, Ontario, Canada. Interestingly enough, Dr. Alain actually had to apply to medical school seven times before he got in. And this is what we'll be talking about today. So, Dr. Alain, welcome. Thank you for coming here today. How do you feel about doing this episode? I think it's going to be an interesting thing to do. Like you said, applying seven years in a row, I think it sometimes shows that people need a lot of perseverance and have to try again and again before they get to their goal, their life goal, and the reason why they want to become a doctor. So, I think there's something to say about trying multiple times. For sure. Yes. I look forward to hearing what you have to say about this. So, let me begin by first asking you, how did you figure out you wanted to be a doctor and not anything else considering how hard it is to get into medicine? So, I guess a little background for me. So, I was born in Quebec in a small town where there's a lot of agricultural stuff, so I was raised on actually a pig farm and a mink farm. So, I was always interested in the beginning more so like vet school and things like that. And of course, vet school is a little bit even more hard to get in. But after I got to sort of my teen years, I thought I shifted my interest from animals to humans because they're a lot more interesting. And so, that's probably when I started thinking of medical school. And then I got to do my CEGET in French, which is basically a great 13th and first year of university. And because I had a lot of interest in human physiology, I applied to McGill. And at that time, they were the only sort of biology program that was focusing on human physiology. So, that was the program that interested me the most. But at the same time, it's the program that sort of challenged me and sort of got me on a long path to get into med school. So, I remember going to McGill on the first day and starting sort of a general biology class. And you're 300 in a class. And the dean of sort of medicine or the dean of biology comes and says, well, you know, there's 300 of you. At the end of this one semester, there'll be 150 of you. And at the end of the year, there'll be 75 of you. So, obviously going from French to English and not having any real learning in English before that, it made it very challenging. That was probably the toughest year of my life. And obviously, my grades weren't what they had been before. And because of that, it was harder to sort of climb the hill to be finally accepted at one point in medicine. So, that was a challenge I made for myself, but also the reason why it took me a little while to get in med school. Yeah. And I'm not saying that it's the same experience, but myself being an immigrant, I remember even though it's a completely different experience. This is me talking about being in middle school. I didn't know any English whatsoever. And even then, it was hard for me to just learn how to speak English. I think it took me two years to even start getting A's. And this was middle school. So, I can only imagine what it was like at the level you were at, transitioning from French to English. Absolutely. That was very challenging. But the physiology was so interesting to me that I sort of got through the first year of calculus, all of the courses that you have to do, organic chemistry and all that are not really interesting, but you have to go through. So, I think it was after, at the end of my bachelor's, which was about the third year that I thought of, okay, now I want to really apply to medical school. So, I applied to the three French medical schools in Quebec, and that didn't go too well. I applied to the three French schools because they didn't require the MCATs in those days. So, I thought maybe I had a better chance. And then I figured out I was very naive. I didn't know how the system worked. So, I didn't know that, well, if you wanted to apply to an English school, then you needed to do the MCAT. So, then, okay, I tried the MCAT. Probably didn't do that well. And then I thought, okay, I'm not going to get in that way. So, I brought things up to McGill, to the Ontario schools, and I applied again. It didn't work. And then I wanted to continue with my physiology. So, I then got into a PhD program. I did a PhD at McGill in respiratory physiology. Managed to have some good collaboration and good publications. And once I got my degree, then I managed to get some interviews, and that's when I got accepted. That's great. Thank you for that breakdown. And it seemed like such a twisted long path, and you must have been very, oh, and you are still very determined, ambitious, well, now a doctor. Yeah. Yeah. Every year, it was a bit of a hardship, but I knew that was my goal. And also, I must admit that I always had a great support system from my parents. So, not only a support system from financial means or things like that, but it was more sort of an emotional support that they were always there, especially my mom. And I remember at the end of my PhD when I had to really sit down and do my thesis, basically what I did is I went home. I was in sort of the RV that my parents had at the time. And my mom said, just sit down. Do your work. Don't worry. We're going to bring you food. We're going to sort of do all the things you need to do. Just focus and do it. And it basically was the reason why I managed to sort of, especially towards the end when it was getting more difficult, just to finish it and then thesis was well. And after that, I did the applications and got four or five interviews. And I will always remember the one in Toronto, which is the one that I went to is, I was at the corner of College and Queen Street. I was listening to my little music. And it was when U2 came up with one of my favorite albums. I just put on my music, focused on the music, went in my interview and came out and I knew I nailed it. What song was it? Oh, so it was a U2 Actoon Baby. And yes, it was just, I knew I was going to get it. A right song, a right soundtrack can do so many things for us. Yes. I guess the point of that is it was a long road, but I think the focus was always on doing it and having the persistence to every single year, try a little bit broader, try to add things to my CV and also realizing that that path, and I think that's one of the key messages I think I want to focus on is that that path is not a wasted path. If you're going to get there and you think you want to be there at the end, even if the path will be curved and long and you really want it, I think, and you want to pursue it, I think that's, it's not a waste of time to get there. It's all experience that you build. It's all things that make a person's character build, and those are all things that are important along the way. So, and one of the other things I really like that you said is the key is to lean into your emotional support, because would you agree that if it wasn't for your mom, for example, or other people close to you, would you be able to apply so many times and keep that resilience going? Absolutely not. I think it was a key thing for me. I hope that your listeners all have the same support because it was so important. When I finished my PhD, it was also sort of in the mix of a breakup, and my mom was really there. It was one of the things that actually made me continue, but it also is one of the things I always try to remember that wherever I am in life now, it's not just because of me, and it's because of the support. And if you think that you're only got where you are because of the people that help you, I think it will keep you sort of humble, first of all, also thankful for who got you there. No one gets there just by themselves. If you remember that, I think you will respect, hopefully, the privilege that will be granted to you one day to become a doctor, and it is a privilege. And if you remember that you got there because people help you, and if you remember that you got there because it's a privilege, I think it will be better that way. If it takes you a little while to get there, I hope that for most people that it takes a while, it will make them see it as a privilege. If you get in easily, you think you're a big shot, you think you're all it, you don't think you owe anyone, you think you got it just because you're so good, that's not a good philosophy to be a doctor that will help other people. Right, right. And when you finally got in, describe how did you feel, and which school did you get into? So I got into University of Calgary, McGill, Montreal, so I got in a few. I didn't get in any of the French schools, and I chose Toronto because I wanted to get sort of away from McGill because I had been there for so many years, I wanted to get a bit of a change in my life, so I got in a few. I didn't go to Calgary because they had a three-year program and no summer breaks, and after doing a five-year PhD, I thought, okay, that's going to kill me. Toronto was a nice change, so I chose Toronto. I'll just continue for a minute here. So talking about the long path and how the long path is sometimes actually, you don't realize it at that time because you're in it, you're emotionally disappointed, but the long path that took me seven years is what brought me to meeting my wife. Okay, so here's a little story. So you're in a class of 175 people. You don't know anyone. It's the first day. You sit down and then you sort of start chatting, and there's a lady just beside me, and I say, well, hi, how are you? We start chatting a little bit, and she says, oh, you have a French accent, or you are a linguist, and I say, wow, how do you know that? Well, she says, we're going to be in a small group of six people doing dissection and doing sort of community things. I said, okay, that's good. So we do about a few months of school together. We're sort of close because we're in a small group of six, and then a little bit later, she sort of wants to get a little bit more involved. Now we're married, and we have five kids, aged 50 to 24. So the point of that is the path was long, and there was a reason, meeting my wife. Yeah, all things happen in divine timing, and I've heard that a lot recently. So your story shows that it's true. That's the thing. So when you're not getting accepted, there's probably a reason. There's probably a reason, and at the time, you don't know, and who knows for your listeners or you, it could be a story similar to mine. Yeah, no, thank you. It's very encouraging to hear that, and I know I needed to hear that, and the listeners of the podcast probably would do benefit from hearing this as well. And you kind of answered this question already, but what would you tell your younger self who was going through this growing process of applying to medical school? Yeah, I think so, yeah. So persistence is, I think, good. I think life is not a straight path for anyone, and I think it's getting probably even more and more complicated as the number of applicants per number of people being accepted, the ratio is probably even worse than in my days. So you got to enjoy the path along the way. There's probably some good reasons for that, and I guess the other message is, at the core, you have to ask yourself, why do you want to do medicine? And I think the core has to be sort of a real reason and not pressure from outside factors. And outside factors could be things like parents that are thinking, well, maybe in our culture, if you were a doctor, you would be sort of look at someone that has prestige or that has status. That's not a good reason. And I know that in certain cultures, that may be a reason, and that's not a good reason to me anyway. Mm-hmm. So that's one. The second one is, if people think that you're going to be a doctor and you're going to be rich or financially well, that's, again, not a good reason, because at three in the morning, when you're getting up because you're on call or because you've got to do this or you've got to do this, there's basically no money that's worth that. Find another reason to do it. And it has to be really a personal reason. Outside pressures for money are not a good reason to become a doctor. You have to figure out why you want to do it. Because these days, being a doctor, it's not a 40-hour-per-week job. For most people, it's easily 50 or 60 hours at multiple times with multiple pressures, with multiple demands. So you've got to really find that it's going to be your passion and that you're going to do a lot of sacrifice for that job. It's a privilege, but it entails a lot of sacrifices. So you've got to make sure that you're doing it for the right reason. That's probably what I would tell myself. And fortunately, I was on the right path for that. And for saying it's a sacrifice, does that go for each specialty? Because I know there's different rules for each specialty, like family medicine is one thing. Let's say podiatry is like a whole other thing. So yeah, is it different rules for each specialty or you think it's kind of a rule that applies to each specialty, at least in 2024? I honestly don't think that there's any specialty that is easy. I think every specialty has a fair amount of challenges. But I cannot see psychiatry or pediatrician or cardiologists or heart surgeons. I look at all my colleagues, they work hard and they really, really are caring for their patients and they constantly sacrifice their work, being really passionate about it. The ones that I think I see fail over time, and there are some, are the ones that I don't think were in medicine for the right reasons. Most of them are the ones that I see that are because they're in it for the money. And those ones, first of all, it frustrates me a little bit that they got in because I don't think they're in for the right reason, because they took someone else's position, I think. But also, I think in the long run, they're not necessarily happy. Yeah. And it's good that you mentioned all of that, because as soon as you started talking about the culture piece, for example, I know that as soon as I claimed, like when I was what, 13, 14 years old, I think I had this fleeting thought, okay, now I'll be a doctor. And my parents really approved of that. And I fed off that approval. And now part of me kind of got rejected this first cycle. And I kind of started reflecting a little bit thinking, okay, did I kind of internalize their approval, and I want to be a doctor because I'm seeking for that self approval and for their approval? Or is there a legitimate reason? And sometimes it's very hard to tell the difference between the two, because you've wanted it for so long. And you know, if it's a culture piece, you've been pressured to go into a job such as a doctor, like for a long time, and it's become a central part of who you are. So you've got to really do some digging in there, like you said, to, to see for yourself, why are you going into medicine? What is your reason outside of all those people and your friends and people who have good intentions telling you you could be a doctor, but do you really want to be a doctor? And so, yeah, thanks for saying that. I often ask myself the same question is like, okay, I guess I'd like to please people, I like to be liked. It's always, well, am I working that hard to be a good doctor, because I like patients like me. So it always crosses my mind. And I don't think you can eliminate any of those things, in a sense that we're always molded by other people and culture and all that. But I think we're all type A's, we're probably all people that like to, yeah, to do well, academically, also to do well with other people and be liked. So it's part of a person, but I think you also have to sort of think, okay, I want to be a doctor for not money, not for sort of other pressures, but because I think it's what I, I'm meant to be. And sometimes it takes time to figure that out. And other times you have to probably take a leap of faith. Absolutely. One of our last questions, if you could go back in time, would you have changed anything internally or externally about your experience with medicine, either during pre-med, medical school, or even residency? Would you have pursued medicine at all? And you're like, no, I want to try something else now. I'm good with medicine. No doubt, good with the medicine. I have no regrets. Never, never. There's been too many good things in my life that have been associated with the path that I took to get to medicine. And yeah, including every single day of work, my family, my wife, my kids, all of that, it's all part of the same package. I don't have regrets at all. That's fair. Yeah. For a second, I forgot all of your kind of family stems from your whole path to medicine. So it's like, how can you say otherwise? No, exactly. It's been good. Yeah. We are almost done here. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for being so open about your experience. It truly is very inspiring for me to hear. And it's very encouraging. And you have no idea how your words would help a person. I already feel like they're helping me and it's giving some needed advice to the people at the right time can change the trajectory of their lives. So thank you just for being on this podcast. In the interest of time, we should probably start to wrap up. Is there anything else you would like to share before we finish up? And what are the main takeaways you want listeners to get from our conversation? Not a lot to add, but I think if it's a long path, it doesn't really matter because the path is the important thing. And if the path doesn't end up in medicine, it's still the path of your life. Things sometimes can be rough, but they're rough at a certain point in time, but they always get better. And sometimes they're rough at a point in time for a reason. You don't see it at that time when you're getting rejected or when it's hard, but there's, I think, usually a reason. And the reason might be that somewhere around the corner, there's going to be something that's going to be even more exciting than you actually could imagine or could think. And if you follow the path, then that's going to take you to where you should be. Yeah, that's about it. Those are very good words to end with. It was a pleasure interviewing you, Dr. Lane. I learned a lot from our conversation and thank you so much for joining me on this podcast. Thank you very much. I hope the listeners here learned a few things as well and can apply it to their lives. I would love to hear from all of you listening in what you liked about this episode and what topics you want me to cover in the future episodes. So please DM me on Instagram or LinkedIn to share your insights. This was Valeria Rusnak, the host of the Rejected Pre-Met podcast, and I thank you for listening.