Dan Evans

This is the Unparalleled Performance Podcast hosted by Josh Rebandt. The podcast features guests who are ambitious and passionate about success. This week's guest is Dan Evans, who has worked in various roles in baseball and has a love for the game and the people involved. Dan discusses his background and how he got into baseball. He emphasizes the importance of balance in life, including family and personal interests, while working in a demanding job like being a general manager for a sports team. He shares personal stories that shaped his perspective on success and encourages being genuine and true to oneself. This is the Unparalleled Performance Podcast. I am your host, Josh Rebandt. Each week we will feature guests who are ambitious and passionate about being more than the status quo because we all know that being average is the enemy to success. We will cover topics that will help you become more disciplined and committed to your goals in life, leadership, and fitness. Now on to this week's episode. And remember, as iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. Enjoy the show. Hello, and welcome to each and every one of you back to the podcast, or if you're a new listener, it's great to have you here. We hit a hiatus over the past month or so and the bulk of the summer due to my coaching position, which is managing the Traverse City Pittsbitters in the Northwoods League, a summer collegiate baseball league in the Midwest, which runs from Memorial Day weekend through roughly mid-August when our players return to their college campuses for the fall. But I'm really excited to hop back on and rip out some new episodes with some incredible guests who will share their knowledge and experience to help all of us grow in our pursuit of success. We've had 16 episodes so far. I'm really excited for the 17th one here. And as we kickstart it back up, I have with me Dan Evans, who has worked in pretty much every facet of the game of baseball, from intern to GM to commissioner, player agency, and just about every other role imaginable. And I met Dan this past summer when he was selected to broadcast one of our games on ESPNU during the season. And through that, I quickly realized how knowledgeable he is within the game of baseball, but also a knack for connecting with people. And that was one of the biggest driving reasons for me to invite you on and through conversations in a short span and knowing his experience in the game, it made it a no-brainer for me to bring you on, Dan. So welcome to the show. And to get started, if you can just give me a brief summary of your background in the game and how you got into baseball originally. Well, Josh, first of all, thanks for the invite. I really enjoyed meeting you this year. It was a lot of fun. I enjoy meeting new people and growing my world. And you're just one heck of a good guy. I really enjoyed meeting you. My world, I've been very lucky. I've worked in a sport that I love, and I have had jobs, decision-making jobs for more than four decades doing something I really love. I just love the game of baseball. I love the people in baseball even more. I went to DePaul University in Chicago. Josh, I was lucky as heck. I got to work for the two local teams my first 20-plus years. Started as an intern at DePaul University. Really grateful for the opportunity. Went in looking for three credit hours so I could become a criminal prosecutor about four months earlier. And about a month in, I had the bug and I had the itch. And I already had a job set up before I finished my junior year of college with the White Sox. I worked there for 20 years. I've ended up working for five teams in decision-making roles, each of them bringing different ways of doing things, different people, different processes. I really believe each one of them made me better. And I think, you know, the culmination of my career, in the first stage of my career, I would say, was the becoming the general manager of the Los Angeles Dodgers, one of the greatest sports franchises in the game. And I'm really proud since then that I've grown in so many areas and done things I never dreamed about doing. So I'm not done yet. I'm having lots of fun. And candidly, I think that's part of who I am as a person. Kind of, you know, what's next? What can I do to challenge myself? My mom used to used to say, that's a that's a good restless. But I don't know how to completely define it, Josh. But I have a lot of fun every day doing something I really enjoy. I love that. Was was baseball originally your favorite sport? Or did it turn into your favorite sport by nature of interning with the White Sox? Great question. I grew up in a get this, I grew up in a neighborhood, but we had over 100 kids on our block. And we had two open areas on our block. So we played baseball hoops, hockey and football. It seems like 24 seven school just got in the way sleep got in the way. My grandmother, my mom, and my dad really instilled my love in baseball. We only lived about three miles away from Wrigley Field. So I went there a lot. My dad was a Sox fan. My mom was a Cub fan. And, you know, they just instilled in me a love for the game, the strategy of the game. I went to ballgames a ton early in my life. And, and I went when I was in high school, I went when I was in college, I played high school, I played club in college. And I'm glad I did. Because if the game for me, I've never figured it out completely, which I think brings a lot of respect that the game's bigger than me always will be. And I just love the competition. But I love hoops. And I absolutely love hockey. So, you know, for me, I enjoy sports, but I enjoy the real world, too. And I think that's, you know, one of the things baseball has taken me to so many countries around the world, and so many places and people that sometimes it blows me away what I've been able to do, because of a little white ball. It's crazy sometimes. Well, it's funny, you talk about traveling and enjoying that, because I think that in a position of leadership, like being a general manager for the Dodgers, you got to have a balance in life. And that was something we talked about a little bit this summer of being willing to have a family life work balance, where you can enjoy things. And I really think that the people that can find that sweet spot are the people that are probably going to set themselves up for the best chance to have success in their field, just because it you and I are incredibly competitive. But we also realize that there's life outside of baseball to baseball gives us a lot of opportunities in this life. But you know, you've been able to experience so many things. Can you touch on the value of having a family life and even just personal interests to that you can still do while being a GM for a sports team and at the professional level? It's a great question, Josh. And I think one of the things that resonated for me with you was how you you value your family and value your friends. I think too many people in the world, evaluate themselves and judge themselves on who they are professionally in their work environment. And, you know, baseball is consuming. You know, I was traveling with a big league team when I was 20 years old, and did it for the next 40 years. And it can absorb you, it can suffocate you. And I had a couple of staff members that I saw that I didn't respect a whole lot because their entire self worth was about wins and losses. And, you know, I started to see I was losing contact with some friends, some family members, and you know, that's going to happen in any job. But what I started to realize is, I've got to be genuine, I've got to be me. And the things that propel me to be better, rejuvenate me, give me energy, most of them have nothing to do with my job. It's hiking, it's running, it's exploring cities and countries and places. Tom Seaver was really good for me. Tom used to go out and walk the streets and explore the town. I was a young kid who grew up watching Tom Seaver pitch. And he took me under his wing and taught me that, you know, you can be great at your job, but also be really aware of the world around you. And I also had some great mentors. I had a Distinguished Medal of Honor winner from the Korean War, who was an incredible man, and kept emphasizing, you know, be really good at the real world, too. And I think, Josh, when you get a lot of responsibility, and I was lucky, I was 25-26 years old, I was the assistant GM of a major league team, never anticipated that. And I said suffocating earlier, it's real. I mean, you get to the ballpark nine or 930 in the morning, you're coming home at midnight, young family, friends of yours going through things, getting married, having kids and, you know, you're in Cleveland, or you're in Seattle, or you're in an extra inning game. One of my friends is a incredible cancer researcher. And he came to the ballpark during one of my situations with the team, we blew a big lead in the ninth inning. And I was a little surprised he was in the back of the suite and came to him after the ballgame. And I was obviously very disappointed. It was a home game. And I said, we know, when did you come back here? And he said, he's a cancer doctor. And he said, Danny, I lost a couple of kids today. And I had to tell their families. And you're my entertainment, you're my outlet. You're where I go to escape. And so is every one of the other 45,000 people here tonight. Yeah, they're disappointed they didn't win. But they came and they got away from their problems. Don't ever lose sight of that. And this is a great friend. This is one of those 10 o'clock at night friends who calls me and says, Hey, want to go see Spider Man again? Or want to go see the Dark Knight? Or want to go grab a burger? And it was a real moment for me. Because I realized, of course, I want to win. Oh, my God, I'm so competitive. And I've always been I was competitive in Little League. But when you when you judge yourself, Josh, on only one thing, to me, you, you know, if winning and losing is my barometer, I'm in trouble, because I don't control most of it. I can control being me being a really good person. Being good to my friends being good to my family, being a consistent person personality wise, being well read, aware, liking music, reading a good book. But I'm also adventurous. I'm spontaneous. I love food. And as a result, I think, at that point, I started to kind of listen to me a little bit more and embrace who I was. So if it meant I had a great boss in Los Angeles, and I would leave to go watch my kids play high school sports, I'd leave, I'd go watch BP, or I'd go warm ups for volleyball or softball or basketball or soccer. And then I'd come back to the ballpark as the game began. And as he said to me, Dodgers been around a long time, they're going to be there before and after you're gone. Just, you know, when you're here, be all in. And I look back, would I have done some things differently? Heck, we all would, Josh, but you know what, I'm really proud of the fact that I'm not. I'm not so immersed in my job for the last 40 years that I didn't know what was going on around me. And I'm really proud of that. I'm sure I've had great jobs. But I'm even prouder of the relationships that I've, I've made and maintained all over the world, many of which are because of the sport. But people ask me, what do I love more about the game? Is it the strategy? And I know, it's the people, the people in the game make the game great for me. And you know, you're going to win and you're going to lose. But your friends are your friends and your mentors, and I've had some incredible ones really made my world more complete. And I'm as a result, I, I've never been suffocated by the game, at least not in the last 25-30 years. Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. And you talk about having like, if we have one barometer, and that's winning and losing. And that's oftentimes the first thing that I when I get back home, and people say, how was your season? If you didn't win the championship, everybody just kind of already puts you one step lower, or if you made it to the semifinal, maybe people think you're a little bit higher, whatever. But to me, like that question is so hard to answer, like, how was your season? Just because our success of our guys isn't just this year and how our team did at the end of the year, it's what they're going to do this spring? Are they going to go back and be a captain at their at their program at school? Are they going to be a better teammate? Are they going to be an all-conference player, maybe set themselves up to get drafted? Or we've had guys that have entered the Air Force, we've had guys that have entered some really incredible jobs post baseball, and just being a part of that. And then I think that our success as an organization is what they're doing 5, 10, 20 years from now. What's their family life like? Are they are they able to invest in their children and have a stable marriage, you know, and investing in their spouse and you know, those sorts of things. To me, that's the ultimate gauge of success. So it's really hard oftentimes be like, you know, what is how did our season go? And it's easy to give a win loss record or how far you made it, but it's really not the only barometer that really matters. But it's the only one that people see. And, and that's, I feel like the biggest shame in sports is that that's the one judgment of success. When you put turn on ESPN, it's who won, who lost. And NFL standings, you know, somebody's wanting to know on one and people are going to get, get up in a panic when their team doesn't start out with a win. So I just think that that's probably the biggest problem with sports, in my opinion. No, Josh, I mean, are you and I any smarter if we win? Sometimes we luck out and we win despite ourselves. And sometimes we had nothing to do with the winner, the loss, and we know it. And we look at it and we go, that just was meant to be on that side of the hyphen. One of my early bosses said to me, something that I'm so glad he did. Roland Heyman was one of the, one of the greatest people in the game over the last 50 years. So successful. And gosh, I was so lucky to have him. I had, I had four Hall of Famers as my core unit starting off my career. And you know, you're gonna, it's hard to mess that up. Luckily, I didn't. But Roland said to me one day, we can't really contribute enough to decide which side of the hyphen the notch goes. Is it a win or is it a loss? But if we're prepared, and we're prepared as well as we can, then there should be no regrets. And I took that literally. And the rest of my career, even to today, I mean, when I was doing your games, you know, I was watching video on every guy. And I was doing homework on those guys, because I just feel that the most prepared people in the room are usually the ones that have the best chance of having success. And I just didn't want to look back with any regret and say, I wish I would have done a little bit more in in this area. And I never did. But the winning and losing, you're so right. And I think people in the sport recognize that. But I think, you know, the word fan is an abbreviation for fanatic. And sometimes you have to understand that that's their outlet. And, you know, that erases a bad day at work that erases tough times at home, or, you know, somebody's going through some medical issues. So it means so much to them. But for us, it can't be how we completely evaluate ourselves. Or else I just think you would, you would really implode before the season's over. And, you know, I don't really want to implode. Right, right. Absolutely. And you mentioned preparation. Let's jump into that a little bit with your role with the Dodgers as the GM there. When you first got in as the general manager, you were taking over, I listened to a podcast from you back in 2013. I think with baseball's perspectives at the time, but I think it's now the Fan Graphs podcast, by talking about how if you get hired, you're probably getting hired to either fix some problems that were that were there. Or maybe you're taking over a well oiled machine and somebody's retiring. But I think in your case, you were taking over because there were some things that needed to be needed to be fixed. And can you pinpoint some of those things that were on your radar, things that you wanted to be prepared, going into year one, year two, year three, and ending that playoff drought with the Dodgers, which you guys did in 04, which is pretty incredible in just a couple years turning that over. What were the things that you really focused on and things also that were maybe were running well that you just wanted to continue to build upon? Super question. You know, I was in a great environment. I was working for the Cubs and Andy McPhail, one of the great executives of his time, won a couple World Series, a third generation baseball guy. And I remember saying to my dad, you know, the Dodgers are a mess. And he said, effectively, what you just said, he said, you know, they don't hand you a brand new car. They hand you a car that needs to be fixed. And then you fix the car. And the first thing I did, very candidly, I grew up a baseball fan, Josh. And I had an image of Los Angeles Dodgers. That was no more. They used to be very scouting and player development oriented. Don Drysdale was one of my mentors. He was a broadcaster for the White Sox. So I knew how they used to do it. I mean, I really knew. He had passed. But there was a part of me that was like, Donnie would really love me to fix this. And I was challenged, Josh, because they had lost their way. They had effectively cast aside their past, and they're great players from the past. I don't know why. But I'm glad they did. Because it gave me a chance to reestablish what I felt was the Dodger brand, one of the most respected brands in the game. Their farm system, you know, you'll appreciate this, all three, their top three affiliates, had abandoned them and had left the Dodger brand. And they left them at the end of the previous year. The staff was a mishmash of people from different regimes, who didn't have a clear path or a philosophy. They didn't scout, they didn't empower their area scouts like I believed in. Luckily, I had a lot of good people in my career. And I had done just about everything walking into that job. So I kind of knew what things should look like. But I was also very lucky that I two people running the Dodgers, their chairman of the board and their team president, who allowed me to come in and do it my way. So some of the things I did was bring people like Sandy Koufax, Duke Snyder, Fernando Valenzuela, Ronnie Say, Steve Garvey, back into the fold. And people like Don Newcomb. And cherish the history of Jackie Robinson, who's a personal hero of mine. And being aggressive internationally, getting into Japan, Korea, Taiwan, like the Dodgers did 10, 15 years earlier, and had waned from that. Getting aggressive in Latin America, but also bringing experience into the fold. I hired, I believe, eight former managers, and four former general managers to give me good information. I didn't care if they were contrarians, I knew I wasn't the smartest person in the room. But Josh, you know, this is a manager as a head coach. It's the process. It's the culture that wins, that succeeds. It's not a singular decision. So I changed the way we scouted. I busted it up into three ends. I had international scouting, professional scouting and amateur scouting. It had never been done before. Seems like so long ago. It was 20 plus years ago. But nobody was doing it that way, Josh. And I always thought, let the amateur scouts scout amateurs. Let the international guys scout international guys. And let the pro guys scout pro guys. So we added staff, we added a culture. I started to bring back all the retired number guys and speak in spring training individually about who they are, what they expected, what the Dodgers meant to them. And then I retired all of their numbers in the minor leagues. So if you're playing in low A, you didn't get a chance to wear a 32. You couldn't wear a 39. You know, they had 12 numbers at the time. And the Dodgers have a storied history. But the other thing we did, Josh, and as a field guy, I think you'll really appreciate this. We started to do this thing called infield before ballgames, which, you know, a lot of the guys didn't like, big league guys don't like to take infield. But college guys don't either. No, and we were a bad defensive team. So I took our top, like seven to 10 veteran guys, and I made them accountable for the rest of the team, for how we're going to look at what we're going to do. And candidly, I know that I brought a completely different attitude. Because suddenly, I cared about the area scout, and I wanted to hear about the high school kids and I wanted to get into Taiwan, where we were really aggressive. We signed three of the first four Taiwanese players ever to play in the big leagues, signed Korean players, went in Japan hard. I had three players on my first full season team. And I think what we did, more than anything, is we changed from an offensive focus to a pitching and defense and player development oriented club. And I could see the change. And it was fun to watch the change and hear people. I didn't want people all on the same page with me. But I wanted them to know what my intentions were and how I wanted it to look. We had eight left handed pitchers on the first team I had. And it's by design. I mean, I'm I covet left handers. And we changed and we played great. The problem was we had Barry Bonds cheating in the same division. And he made the difference in our division. And you know, I don't regret saying what I just said, because he did. And I looked at it and thought, all right, we're doing the right thing. And then in 2004, you know, just three years after we had, I mean, Josh, the team I inherited, we were so bad, I couldn't make a trade at the deadline. Because we didn't have a single minor league player that anyone wanted. I had nobody, I had literally nobody that anybody wanted in a trade. And I challenged our staff the day after the trade deadline that year. And I said, Listen, the one deal I made, I only made it because I could take on the salary. That's where we are. Nobody wants our players. And I decided, you know what, I'm going to do it my way, but collaboratively. And I'm glad I did. And I'll tell you what, one of the one of the greatest moments of my life. I had been let go before the playoffs. So I wasn't with I wasn't the GM anymore. That was my team. And the guys called me while they were celebrating in left field. They were rounding the outfield celebrating with the fans. And one of the guys, one of the best players on the team called me and started passing the phone around. And we had gone through an ownership change. And as a result, I was gone. But I realized at that time, that they had bought into it. And they wanted me to share in that moment. Here's me watching my youngest one play soccer. And I'm walking around the field. And I was emotional as could be, because I just felt good about what we had accomplished. And to this day, I feel good about it. You know, it's like, yeah, that was my squad. But a really good friend of mine, introduced me to one of the great orchestra leaders one day. And he said something to me that I'll never forget. And it was one of my big things. The rest of my career, he said, I can't play a cello, but I sure as heck knows what it sounds like when it plays well. So I decided I was going to conduct the orchestra. I wasn't going to wear the top hat and tails. But I was just going to put a culture together and put a process together that that ended up with a chance to win. And you know, for me, and you and I talked about this in Traverse City, culture is a big part of the game, character, massive part of baseball, failure based sport. And I just try to surround myself with good character people. Well, four of the guys on my team became big league managers. David Ross, Alex Cora, Robin Ventura, Dave Roberts, helped all four of them with their interviews when they were going up for their, their manager jobs. And now I really like heck for, for the three of them that are still here. Because I look at it and I go, I don't root for logos anymore. I root for people. And you know, when Alex and Dave were in the World Series a few years ago against each other, they called me before game one and said, Can you believe this? And I said, Yeah. And I don't know who the heck I'm going to root for. But I hope it goes seven games. So incredibly rewarding when you have people that, and especially early on to even that year where you guys didn't make the playoff run, but guys that may have not bought into the idea of infield early on, and then they see the benefits over a long period of time. And then you're not with the team anymore, but you're the one that they want to call. It's incredibly rewarding. Or a guy like you said, David Ross, Alex Cora, guys that ended up managing the playoff run. And asked you for advice for interviews or those types of things like those are the rewarding parts of leadership. And that's when you know that you've had some influence on what they're doing. And the decisions that they're making how they're carrying themselves is when they're calling you for advice. And that's by and far the most, that's honestly more rewarding than hoisting a trophy at the end of the year. That is, that's the nature of the game right there. I love getting phone calls from guys at random times. You know, I'm not going to name drop on you, but one of the best players in the game just called me a few days ago and he goes, can you believe the season I'm having? And I'm like, yeah, I do believe it. I believed in you. And the fun part is when some of them have, you know, made it to the Hall of Fame. Like Frank Thomas is one of my best friends in the world. And you know, we drafted him in Chicago and stood by him. And, you know, I remember the first time I saw him play and I remember the first time we brought him to Chicago and we were getting grilled and I'm thinking, I think we're right on this one. And then, you know, when those guys go to Cooperstown and a few of them have mentioned my name, it is not only humbling, but it's an earthquake. You know, you just go, wow, this is the biggest moment of his professional career. And he's taken the time, you know, to mention it, you know, mention my little piece. And for me, you know, Josh, when these guys move on and they want to become college coaches, they want to become something and, you know, they want to be a big league manager or a pitching coach or a bench coach and they call and they go, can you help me? I'd love some advice, but I also love when the former players, you know, I'm really active on social media and, you know, some of them will DM me and say, you know, just thanks a bunch for helping me at that point in my career when things weren't good. Because I think, Josh, that the thing that most people forget, and you know it, these guys are human and they have ups and downs and they have stuff going on in their world that nobody knows when they get out between the lines. And sometimes the game is a refuge. Sometimes the game is a challenge. And you and I know what they're going through to a point. And for me, helping them get through those moments to the point where they can thrive on the field is some of the moments that I'm most happy about. You know, I had one player once in spring training who was just so, he was playing so poorly. And I walked up to him, he was at dinner at the same place I was at in spring training. I walked up to him and I said, hey, can I get like 30 seconds? He goes, yeah. And I said, what's going on? Something's going on. And he goes, yeah, my wife's having terrible complications. And she's not here. And I just, and I stopped, just stopped. I said, you're on the team, dude. I said, why don't you go home tomorrow? Just take as much time as you need. Go be with her. And when you come back, you're going to be on the club. You're going to have a uni. Don't worry about your role. You're going to be just fine. But I knew something was going on because it just hasn't been you. And he said, no, I can't leave the team right now. I said, that's why they call it exhibition baseball. You just go home and just do it. And he did. And I protected him. And then when he came back, he told all his teammates. And the guys came up to me and said, wow, so that was okay for you? And I said, of course it was okay. You know, and for me, Josh, if we're not people first, how can we expect to succeed? And how can we expect to lead? And, you know, I think that comes from good parents. But I also think that it comes from good mentors around me that, you know, it's what we talked about a few minutes ago. It can't all be about results. It's got to also be about the foundation that you set up. And, you know, that guy has remained one of my closest confidants as he's matured into some really big roles in the game. And I know why. Because he knows I cared about him. And I cared about him on and off the field. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, like you said, the game isn't just a refuge for the fans, an escape. You know, talking about one of your buddies that came to the game to watch and had a hard day at work and doing cancer research and had to tell a couple fans. But it's also for the players, too. I think about the football player. I don't remember his name this past weekend. He had the press conference of talking about hearing a knock from God. And I'm a man of faith myself. And just his story about his daughter having a seizure on Thursday or Friday. They play on Sunday. That game like he I know he probably wanted to be at home with his family like two days after a seizure is not, you know, that's not something that you just want to leave your wife with. And, but the game is an escape for him. That's his, you know, few hours that he gets to go and kind of be himself and compete at an incredibly high level. So yeah, the game is not just for fans refuge. It's also for the coaches, players, the GM's like those three hours. It's, it's definitely an escape for a lot of people. Oh, there's no question. You know, if, if it weren't, I wouldn't have done it. You know, to me, no matter what was going on in my life, at seven o'clock, one o'clock, I could, you know, eat chips and salsa popcorn, chew ice, watch the game, and escape a little bit. You know, you know, I remember my mom was really ill. And I was sitting in Japan and she had just had a really difficult chemo treatment. And I was sitting in Yokohama, Japan, literally saw one of the best games I've ever seen. And I scouted so much overseas that I never take it for granted, because it's so amazing to go over to a foreign country and see the game that you played as a kid, and the passion that people play with it. And about the seventh inning, my mother texted me, the time difference is like 16 hours. And she said, just tell me you're having fun. And I was using WhatsApp. And I took a picture of the crowd in Yokohama. And I said, Mom, I'm having fun. And then look at this down here. Big, big, I mean, a big, big bag, Dan Evans, always a big bag of popcorn or kettle corn. And she goes, good. She goes, just give me a call when the game's over. She goes, I'm scared. And I just want to talk to you. And I remember remembering that the game for me was like, it was unpaused. The world was unpaused for me. An incredible ending to the ballgame. The manager of the Bravestars, one of my best friends in the world, went down, hung with him, and then called my mom. And my mother was like, you know, it sounds like you're in a great environment. And I said, yeah, but let's get back to reality. And I'm, you know, I think, you know, that's why I like to go to 11 o'clock movies and 10 o'clock movies. Because sometimes the game, sometimes the day in spring training, Josh, you don't know this, Dan, but I would do three games a day many times. You know, and I would scout literally three games a day. You know, two big league games, maybe an amateur game or three big league games. And at 10 o'clock, I didn't want to go back and write reports. I wanted a little bit of me. So I'd go get a, basically a vat of popcorn, and go see some fun movie. And then when the Academy Awards came around, I'd seen every movie. And it was like, okay, it doesn't matter who's a 48 and who's a 60 grade. I think she should be the Academy Award winner. And I think that allowed me to be a little better at being me. Yeah, I love that. That's huge. And I think that perspective is something that more people need to take on for sure. Switching gears to a different topic now. Kim Ang, you hired her twice. She's the first female general manager in sports history, Miami, or in Major League Baseball history with Miami Marlins. And just curious, like, not just her, but any hire that you've made. You've talked about surrounding yourself with good people. What are the character traits that have stood out to you from Kim or other people that you've hired that people need to know, like, man, this is something I need to really focus on in terms of bettering myself if I want to have a shot to advance in the game of baseball or any career in general? Yeah, you know, Josh, and I love the question. I think what I'm proudest of in my career are the people I've hired, and the people that I've mentored. Maybe some of it is because I had great mentors myself, and recognize that I had to give back to the game. It had been so great to me. For me, I don't mind contrarian positions in any way. In fact, I love it. It really makes me think through what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. So I don't want yes people. But I look back at Kim, and I think she's a product of good culture. The White Sox were very progressive, and we had a couple of older men who were extremely progressive and said, hey, if you think she's the best candidate, let's hire her. And we were really techie, but we were really quiet about it. You know, the Oakland A's went and made a movie about it. We just had a lot of great seasons, and we didn't tell anybody what we were doing. She was the right person at the right time, very process-oriented. The thing I remember most about her is she had this yellow notepad, and it was a legal pad, and she would just ask question after question after question. And I appreciated her inquisitive side. I appreciated she had a yearning to know why. Why I thought the way I did and why others thought the way they did. I appreciate that, but I appreciate she's the most prepared person I've ever been around. She has a great disposition. Pardon me, a bad allergy day. But I think A.J. Prowler, who runs the Padres, former staff member of mine, and they're all over the game. And I think there's a common element, and that's a passion for people and getting the most out of their staff. Asking the why, which isn't always the most popular thing in the room, but asking how did we get there? How come we're here? Why do we think that's our best alternative? And what about this? And have we gone there? But the other thing, and I think, Josh, probably the thing that I grew more in my last 20 years or so is bringing people from different environments, different backgrounds, cultures, nationalities, upbringing. They make you better because they don't see the world through your lens. And I'm not just talking diversity, and it's something I've always been huge on, but it's people who come from different parts of the world, different playing backgrounds, different educational backgrounds. A lot of people like to surround themselves with people that are outgoing, extroverted. Sometimes that quiet person, if you know how to ask them the right question, they've got the answer for the room, but you have to know how to pry that out of them. But the other thing is this, and this is a big deal for me. I always like for everybody to feel like they participated in the decision. Didn't make the call. In many cases, I got to make that call. But I want people who want to tell me why. This is why I would do this. And sometimes you hear something that you never thought of, that nobody else with senior leadership ever mentioned. The great thing about that is everybody feels like they participate. And Josh, if your culture is good enough, they'll protect your decision, and they'll support your decision. I don't want to ramble, but one of my favorite moments of my career, we were about to make a trade at the winter meetings. And Josh, I just didn't like it. Everybody liked it, but me. And I'm walking around the room, and then one of the guys said, Danny, there's someone I want to, very personal, I want to talk to you about. Can we go out in the hall? Well, it was one of the guys who knew me the most. And he takes me out in the hall, and he says, hey, you don't like the deal. I said, no. He goes, well, if it's a bad deal, and you get crushed, you're getting crushed, not us. And he said, Danny, we respect your ability to evaluate, to process, to make the decision. Josh, it was eight to two or nine to two. And I was one of the two. And I said, well, I don't, I just don't think this is a good deal. And he said, don't make the trade. So I came back in, didn't make the deal, told him why. About four months later, the guy was going to trade was Eric Gagne. I just had a gut feel. I just thought Eric Gagne was going to be great. I don't know why. I got to know him a little bit. I thought he could close better than he could start. A little inside information. He's ADHD. And he couldn't process six innings. But he could process 15 pitches really well. And there's an example of another guy who to this day, I text regularly. I love him. And he was out to one of the greatest starts that any closers ever had. And there's a big story in the LA Times about how we turned down a trade. And it was unanimous in the room to hold on to Gagne because we all thought he was going to close. And the PR guy, who is one of the greatest PR guys I've ever been around, said, I wish I could tell that story in truth. And I said, No, it's better the way it is. Everybody thinks that we were this big cohesive unit. But instead, nobody dumped on me. And nobody ever said anything negative about the deal. And when it happened to be right, I didn't have to take the credit. I let them. And I think Josh, it was a great moment for me, because we talked about culture and process. They all had a chance to speak. So nobody was like, Well, Danny doesn't listen to me. Or, you know, Dan doesn't care what I think. Oh, I, I not only cared, I took the boat, I took the vote. And I told Gagne later on that year. And Gagne said, Who were the two? And I said, No, dude. I said, Not gonna tell you the two. And he said, Well, I hope you were one of them. I said, Well, the fact that I'm telling you the story, I probably was. And when he was all done, he came to me one day and he said, You know, I know who the two were now. I've been asking for five years. That's awesome. I was lucky. I had a career. And I didn't go to work miserable. I liked the people I worked with. No doubt. And when you make people feel valued that are around you, and most oftentimes, you will take their opinion on something over the course of a week, a month, a quarter, a season, a year, whatever it is, most oftentimes, you will end up using something that they they think is necessary. And they feel valued. But when you do have to make a decision, your gut just says, No, this isn't right. They know that you're listening to them. They also know that they're not the one that has to live with the call. So yeah, go ahead and make the call, whatever your gut says, but they still feel valued because they know that they put in their opinion, if it goes wrong, they can still come back and give you a hard time and say, Hey, I told you. I told you so is the fun part. But you know, somebody once said to me, you're up there getting grilled about something that I suggested. And I know you were debating it, and then went with it. He said, You know, you could have thrown me under the bus up there. And I said, No chance. I said, You know, that's why I've got the title. That's why I've got the role. I said, Don't, don't, don't rip me on some I did. Don't worry about it. I said, Just get the next one right, and we'll be okay. Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. Such a good mindset. And I think more major league organizations need to have that type of focus. Not that I know the ins and outs of all of them. But just in terms of leadership, you know that there's teams that are probably not operating as highly functional as that type of mindset. So appreciate you sharing all that we're getting closer to the end. I do want to ask you just a side note question. I know Michael Jordan spent some time in your organization as a minor leaguer. Just curious if you have any insight interactions with him. And growing up in Chicago as well for you. Just anything that might be interesting for the people listening. First of all, I love him. I got to know him great. One of the most spectacular people I've ever been around. There's a reason why he won six NBA titles. Yeah, he's driven, just driven, like, very few people I've ever met. But extraordinarily consistent in that drive. And in that professionalism. You know, he's coming off being the greatest athlete in the world retires. His father passes. And he just has to get away. And Josh, I respected that so much. And I knew him a little bit. And then I was told, you're going to be his contact. And you're going to be the guy where a lot of things go through. You know, he's, he's like the Beatles. I mean, he's a big deal. So I've never seen anybody work harder in my life at trying to get better. And I've also never met anybody who loved the game more than him. He loved the game. He loved being there at 11 o'clock in the morning, working on his swing, working on his outfield play, working on leads. But my favorite thing about him was he taught our players how to be a pro. There were no excuses. Stand in front of the locker. Deal with the media professionally. But my favorite story from that whole time, and it was a glorious year, I loved it. Played a lot of hoops and a lot of fun. Terry Francona, who I had hired about two years earlier as a South Bend manager, who's going to be in the Hall of Fame. One of the people I'm really lucky that our orbits crossed because he's like family. And I just love the man. I love who he is. So Terry and myself and Michael are at a golf tournament in St. Petersburg during spring training, representing the White Sox. And we can all play a little bit. So we were expected to play really well. Well, we did. We did really well. And it was a bunch of big league teams and we did fine. Well, Michael wants to eat and Michael's loyal to his brand and we're in his Range Rover. We were having a great time. So we stopped in the McDonald's drive-thru and we ordered. And Michael B and Michael had about 150 people around the car before we even got to the to the pickup window. And Michael B and Michael signed for every single person because he always did and never neglected a single kid, a single person and treated them all with respect, which Josh is remarkable because you and I have never been like him where you can't go anywhere. And I was with him in a lot of places where I just couldn't believe how he was besieged by people. So Terry being fun, Terry eats his Filet-O-Fish sandwich and finishes his fries. And Mike's all done. And MJ's like, where's my food? And Terry goes, I don't, I, Michael goes, Danny doesn't like Filet-O-Fish. No, he didn't eat it. Terry goes, Oh, MJ, come on. I was hungry. You were going to, he says, we're going to get back in line. We're going to do this all over again. And this time I'm not buying anything for anybody else. Got in line, people started doing autographs again. Terry turns around, I'm in the backseat. And Terry turns around, he goes, All right, we're never going to forget this. He signed for about a half an hour. And when we were all done, he said, Alright, so where were we? We're driving in Florida. And Terry goes, You want me to drive? He goes, No. He goes, I want you to smell the food the rest of the ride that you didn't want me to eat. And he's just, he was a great teammate. I loved having him around. I bumped into him times, you know, multiple times since then. And catching up was a blast. But Josh, real. Just very real. And an incredibly focused, passionate man. But I loved what he did to his teammates. He elevated his teammates. You know, he, you know, he said to me one day, I said, I think you said 147. And he goes, I'm gonna hit 200. And I said, Do you know what you have to hit? To hit 200? He goes, Of course I do. I said, What'd you come up with? And he said, About 270. And I said, Okay, and you're hitting 149. He goes, Watch. He hit 203. Incredible. Yeah. Yeah, the takeaways for me would be, you know, if you're a GM or in leadership or assistant GM of an organization, you have a guy who's teaching your minor leaders how to be pros. That's incredible. You got guys in the big league level that are going to teach the rookies how to be pros. But you got a guy with MBA experience that is going to teach guys how to be pros. That's incredible. And then also to his willingness to go to a sport that is failure where he's had so much success. And I think that's a reason why he was so successful just from afar. And, you know, being an observer of his career is he's okay with failure. And I think that that's probably one of his biggest, biggest reasons for success overall. So pretty cool to see. And yeah, here, here's some of that. Before we finish, I want to give you a minute to talk about Society for American Baseball Research, and then also the sports management and I think GM or scouting course that you have that goes worldwide. If you want to share those about those couple things that you're doing right now within the game of baseball, would love to hear about I'm sure some people would be interested in as well. All right, Josh, thanks for teeing me up on that one. You know, I'm, I know, I'm really lucky. I've done something that I enjoy into my 60s, which is, you know, most people don't get that opportunity. And as I've aged, I've, I've made sure that some of the things that really bring me joy and let me contribute hard are things I really wanted to be a part of. SABRE, the Society of American Baseball Research is a bunch of baseball nerds. It's people just love the game, love its history, love strategy, love the quirkiness of the game. We've got like 38 different committees. About, I don't know, 10 years ago, I was placed on the board here in the Rocky Mountain area, and then was elected president. And about three years ago, I was named to the board of directors to the worldwide SABRE effort, which has been unbelievable. I mean, just, you know, a lot of people think it's all about stats. It's probably one fifth of what we do. You know, we help with the gold gloves, we, we do a bunch of history in the world. But again, it's the people in the game, we have the largest membership we've ever had now. And I'm thrilled to be a part of it. And I'm thrilled to be on the, on the worldwide board, because I get to, to shape and flow and do some really special things. And some of them are with people that I never would have met, I never would have been introduced to. So it's a lot of fun. I'd strongly recommend SABRE to anybody who loves the game. You know, whether you love uniforms, the Negro Leagues, women in baseball, stats, ballparks, you know, whatever it is, collegiate baseball is one of our committees. There are people all over the world. And that, you know, your doppelganger is there, whoever that crazy person is, maybe your wife, Josh says, Why do you care? Well, there's somebody in Bangor, Maine, who cares as much as you. And you meet him and you go, Okay, this is scary. This guy is just like me. And the other thing you mentioned, sports management worldwide, is very near and dear to my heart. I mentioned Roland Heeman's name a couple of times today. He was easily my most impactful mentor in about 10 years. And about 10-11 years ago, at the winter meetings, he said to me, You got to start giving back. You've done some really fun things. Start thinking about ways you can give back to the game. And I said, What do you mean? I'm in the middle of my career. And he's like, Right, that's why you're going to start giving back. And admittedly, Josh, and I'm sure you have people that you, you know, idolize and say, Well, Pat Gillick, the Hall of Fame general manager, was my guy. I just thought he and John Schirroles were the greatest two baseball executives. And I was their peer, which was frightening for me. But I wanted to learn why, what made him tick. So I snuck into a room and heard him speak. And the man who owns Sports Management Worldwide comes up to me afterwards, and he said, You don't have a credential. You have a real client here in the back of the room. Who are you? And I said, Well, you know, I'm Dan Evans. And I told him what I was doing. And he goes, Wow, really? And I said, Yeah, I said, He's kind of my idol. And he said, Well, we teach people how to get into different sports, but we're looking for somebody to lead our baseball division. I went, Okay, so what would that entail? And he said, We're an online group long before Zoom. And he said, You know, we bring people in from all over the world. And we'd love to have you. My first class had like, seven. Now we regularly have 30 to 35 people every eight weeks. And we have over 400 alums working in the sport at the pro and amateur level, minor leagues, big leagues, college travel team. It is so rewarding. And Josh, what I get to do is I get I get to help shape the future of the game from all over the world. This current class, I think we have people from eight or nine different countries. Last session, we had 13. You know, they're waking up in Japan at six in the morning to do the class. And the best part about it, they challenged me. They come with new ideas and concepts. You know, they're high school seniors, college juniors, and they're trying to get in the game. And I hear things that I know my peers don't hear. Because they're coming to me with ideas, much like your players come to you and say, This is how we do it at this school. This is how we do it there. It helps me it helps me not only think young, but it helps me realize there's different ways of doing things. But Josh, the most rewarding thing is when I go to the winter meetings, or I go to a ballpark, and there's two or three people from one of my classes, you know, there. And nobody can quite figure out why we're such good buddies and why there's a big hug. But I remember that, that young woman or that young man, when they were a little wayward in their college career, or they're in the middle of a job in their mid 20s. And how do I get better? That is so much fun. And I teach it with a with probably the best amateur scout in the country, Hank Jones. And the two of us split it up Mondays and Thursdays. And for eight weeks, we take them from diapers to spin rates. And, you know, suddenly, they're quoting the labor agreement. Those two things bring a smile to my face. But the great thing, Josh, I've never lost my love of the game. And, you know, that still every night is the key. And, you know, I hate the end of the season, just like everybody else, because I don't get to watch baseball anymore. So I'm lucky, but I'm really thankful that Rowan Heman steered me that direction. Because now to the ability to impact people is so extraordinary. And it's my my legacy piece. It's my way of giving back. Love that. Well, appreciate you sharing. I'll, I'll definitely put a link in the description of the podcast in case anybody wants to hit up the website and enroll in one of the courses. So definitely intriguing. And for anybody that's interested in getting into professional baseball at any level, whatever type of role you're looking for, I think it would be an incredible course for learning and growth and connections as well for for whoever enrolls. So I think you mentioned before we got on air that you have, I think, 400 people that are now working in major league organizations that have taken that course. So pretty, pretty cool. So, Dan, thanks so much for joining me this week as we restarted the podcast this fall. It's been great chatting with you, hearing your perspective, and obviously with some examples as well, some of the stories, things that you've gone through. I think that's one of the ways we learn a lot is through experience. And then that helps give us the knowledge of how to relate to people. So thanks so much for your time. Thank you. And thank you so much for being so open and warm when I showed up. Thanks, Dan. Much appreciated. And I know we'll be in touch soon. Thanks for joining us on this week's episode of the Unparalleled Performance Podcast. And if you enjoyed it, please share with those around you. We'll see you next week and go dominate your day.