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James is a public speaker in various forms. He started by doing school radio, moving into primary school teaching and event hosting. James didn't initially realize that all these roles involve public speaking. He got into radio because his dad used to do it and he hosted his first show at his secondary school. Radio helped boost his confidence and allowed him to be someone different on stage. Eventually, he became a primary school teacher because he wanted a more stable job. However, he still didn't realize that teaching also involved public speaking. James later transitioned into event hosting and realized the transferable skills between teaching and hosting. Both require keeping the audience's attention. James believes that children and adults have similar attention spans and that engaging the audience is important. He also thinks that being authentic is crucial in public speaking. Confidence was the biggest challenge for James when he star Okay, thank you very much, James, for joining me today. Would you like to give us a little bit of an intro to yourself? Tell us about yourself and also what is it that you do? Hi, Rachel. Yeah, thanks for having me. So yeah, I'm one of these strange people when it comes to public speaking. I public speak in lots of different ways. And actually, when I was thinking about what I was going to say today and you sent through the questions, I was like, actually, I public speak in more ways than I realised. So the first job that I had that got me public speaking was I was a primary school teacher. I still am at the moment. So for me, that was the first thing that I realised. I was speaking to a class of 30 people every day. And you sort of don't realise that you're public speaking, but you are. So I've done that for 11 years. I'm a radio presenter as well. So I've been doing that for 17 years now. I do live shows weekly and interview people at events and stand up on the stage and make a fool of myself, which is quite fun. But again, public speaking because I haven't got anybody in the room with me. I hadn't really thought about the fact that that is public speaking, but in a sort of slightly different element. And then for the last three years, I've been a live events host as well. So I've done a lot of sports broadcast in the fact or sports production, I should say, in working in venues and being sort of voice of God or stadium announcer, whatever you want to call them. I've done award ceremonies and community events as well. So that could be standing up at stage and presenting awards to people or reading from a script. It could be I work with a netball team standing on the court and, you know, aping around in front of a thousand people and getting people to clap and join in and everything. Yes, I've done lots of different elements of public speaking and those sort of the main jobs that lend themselves to that. And you mentioned then that they're thinking about a timeline. 17 years in radio, 11 years primary school, the last sort of three moving into event hosting. Can you tell us a little bit about how you actually got into the radio, but then also how did you go from radio to primary school teaching? I know it's like, how does that work? Yeah, so radio for me, radio has been a passion and my dad used to do radio back in the 70s. And so I've grown up with, you know, a family that loves radio. We'd always have the radio on in the kitchen. And it was one of those jobs that I didn't really think about it until I was about 13 or 14. And I was offered the opportunity to present a show on a radio station that we had at my secondary school. So a few of my friends set one up and they were like, look, we need some presenters. And I mentioned it to my dad because he'd done it in the past. He was like, yeah, you know, have a crack at it, have a go. So I did my first radio show from my bedroom with a £20 USB mic plugged into the back of an old computer running Windows 95 or something. It was so different from what it is nowadays. And I loved it. And there were probably three people listening. It was a tiny small news station. But it was my first sort of foray into speaking to an audience. And for me, I was really, I still am, but when I was a kid, I was a really shy and anxious person. I was bullied a lot at school. And so I had a real issue with confidence and self-esteem. And, you know, we talk about imposter syndrome and stuff and still get that now. But I was really shy back then. And the radio was sort of an outlet because my dad said to me, and he's very much the same, he still is. He said, you know, when you're public speaking, you're not you. You are the person you want to be out on the stage. And I thought that was so interesting because now, ironically, I sort of think about trying to be myself a bit more. But back then it was it was a really good confidence booster. So I stuck with the radio for a little bit of time. And then I decided that teaching would be my real job because, you know, media, not always the easiest thing to get into and to be successful at. So I'd always loved working with kids. And I wanted to be a teacher since I was four years old. So I got a degree in primary education and started teaching in 2013. So that sort of came as the second thing. But I never linked the two and thought, as I said, you know, when you've got 30 children in front of you or a room of 400 children, if you're doing an assembly, I never sort of occurred to me that that would be public speaking. But yeah, now that I have then moved into live events in the last couple of years since leaving full time teaching and becoming a bit more of a freelancer, I sort of see the transferable skills between the two of them. And you sit there and go, actually, it's just talking to a different audience, but it's a totally different context. But you've got to have the sort of the same wits about you and the same thoughts running through your head. And it was quite interesting that one of the other people that I interviewed, Becky Patel, also was an ex-primary school teacher. Interestingly, we landed on the fact that adults are very similar to kids when you are trying to gain their attention and keep their attention and attention spans are limited, regardless what it is that you're doing. So the techniques and things that you might do as a primary school teacher really do resonate because she works in learning and development, so delivering sessions from that perspective, but realise that, as you say, transferable skills between trying to keep 30 primary school kids entertained, which I think is kind of asked is that what's more difficult, 30 primary school children or a room full of adults? What would your answer to that be? Which is most difficult to keep attention? Oh, so the attention thing is interesting because we have a rule in teaching that a child basically can focus a minute for every year of their life. So if I was working with year four children who were eight or nine years old, I know that I can't keep them in one place for more than eight or nine minutes without an activity or a bit of a task or an opportunity to talk and discuss. And I definitely think it's the same with adults because I've gone to conferences and courses when I was training as a teacher and started teaching when I was 22 and I could not focus for more than 20 minutes. And it's exactly the same as adults. I think most teachers would say that speaking to a class of 30 is easy, particularly because it's your class every day. So they get to know you and you get to know them. Whereas if we have to do a big meeting to parents, most primary school teachers, that is their absolute worst nightmare. For me, luckily, I don't really mind either of them. Some days I think because you know your audience with your class, that's easier. But sometimes actually it's nicer just to do a quick half an hour thing to a bunch of parents because they get the humour a bit more. And, you know, it's just a bit more of an audience. And it's kind of refreshing because when you're teaching, you're presenting for 25 hours a week. And in that same, you know, it's that same audience and you've got the same sort of the needs of the children, you, you know, you sort of have the same approach almost because you know what works for them. Whereas when you've got a room of 100 parents coming in to learn about school trips that we're doing next week, that's quite a fun opportunity to crack a few jokes and, you know, a bit sarcastic and just have a bit more fun with it. So, yeah, both of them are challenging, but challenging in different ways. And I wonder how many teachers out there actually do realise, as you said, about you are public speaking, you are standing up in front of a group of people. Yes, they are children, but you still need to be able to communicate, be clear, be concise, know what it is that you're trying to get across to them, check the understanding, engage the audience. They're the same skill set as if you're delivering, I work to learn in development, so delivering a workshop to adults. And it is exactly as you say, 20 minutes is the max of what we used to work on in that element of, right, give them information for 20 minutes, but then we've got to get them moving. And also how people process information is different. So that side of it. But you did mention about the fact that you were, you know, you suffered from being shy and anxiety when you were a kid, and obviously that radio, opportunity to do the radio was an opportunity, as your dad said, to sort of be somebody else, but try something out. And I think that's part of it as well, is it gives people the opportunity to try something different, be a different style. But as you said, the older you get, you realise that actually has got to be an authenticity to what you do. So what was your biggest challenge? What was the thing that you had to overcome to start on the radio station when you were sort of like 12, 13, 14 years of age? I think probably the same as most people, I think the biggest thing when you start out is confidence. And radio almost gave me the advantage because I didn't stand up on a stage in front of listeners to begin with. I was sat in a room by myself talking into a microphone. And I found some of my old shows recently, actually, I listen back to them and they're awful, but they're terrible. But it was so interesting because I can hear how nervous I am behind the microphone. And having done this for so much longer now, I can really hear that in my voice. But actually, I settled down not too long afterwards because I realised I was just talking to myself. And again, we have an adage in radio about the fact that the best radio presenters are talking to their listener, not their listeners, but their listener. And so I learned very early on that actually that sort of brings that down for you because I'm thinking about my mum who's listening downstairs or I'm thinking about my friend from school who's listening. And now, I mean, I work on a station in London and we've got regulars who listen in and who will email in every Sunday when I do my show. And so I just think about, you know, if I play a song that I know they'll like, I'll think of them and I'll sort of aim my link at them. So although it's public speaking, I developed my confidence and it was really good to have radio first because I just thought about focusing on a listener or an audience member instead of a crowd. But also knowing what to say and making it sound believable. I think for me, it was always the biggest challenge because we all talk about imposter syndrome, but I just wanted to feel comfortable in what I was delivering and what I was saying. So there was lots of practice when I first started in radio and I'd be sitting there going, you know, that was this song, this is this song, the old links that we all start with. And then you sort of, you get ideas and you've seen something in the news or you've seen something on social media and you want to mention it. And I sort of developed over time this personality so that I could feel comfortable with what I was delivering. And I felt that people were listening to me, believed what I was saying, if that makes sense. They trusted what I was saying and they felt comfortable in the fact that, oh, he's saying that. So, you know, I'll listen to it and sort of take note. But yeah, at the beginning, I was really worried that I'd be rubbish at it and that no one would listen to what I was going to say anyway. And it'd be a waste of everyone's time. And you sort of have to, yeah, iron that out as you go along. And I think it is that aspect, isn't it? Not everybody's going to find what you say of interest. But if you have a, if you understand what your purpose is there for, so, for example, the radio, obviously you're there to provide entertainment, to engage with the audience, but you also know there is a demographic of audience that will be tuning into that station. You get to know your listeners, you get to know your audience and you can adjust. And it's what can I offer them? How can I be of service to that individual? Like you said, having, you know, sharing experiences is a big thing. And one thing I realised through a lot of the workshops and the facilitation development programmes that I work on is a lot of what the audience that I engage with are looking for is to learn from the person. What did you do when you were my age? Or how did you deal with this situation? Or how do I tackle this particular challenge? And then if you think about being a live sports host and being in sports, because we work together in sports events, we're creating an atmosphere, we're creating an environment. We know that your sections, for example, short, sharp, sort of direct messaging, engagement, you're not there to give a, I was going to say a soliloquy, but I can't even say the word. A soliloquy, I know what you mean. Yeah, that one. But obviously we adapt because your approach to radio and your approach to teaching and your approach to being a live sports host will be different for each of those different experiences. And it's knowing that, OK, who's in the audience? What is it that they want from their experience? And then how can I actually add value or deliver what they want to them? Yeah, it's thinking about the different hats. And actually, ironically, Covid was one of the times where I really sort of honed in on that because during the Covid pandemic, I went from teaching 30 children in front of me to teaching 30 children a day on Zoom. And so all of a sudden you've got these children who are home, who are in a totally different context and environment to what they're used to. And you're still trying to reach out to them while they've got little brothers running around their ankles and mum drying her hair upstairs and cats walking past the webcam and everything. But you've got to engage with them. And it was really thinking about that context, you know, and thinking about, well, actually, we're all in the same experience here. You know, we do Fun Friday where I let them bring a pet to the register or, you know, we all turn up in our pyjamas and this, that and the other, just to have that shared experience, but also to think about actually how I could reach out to them in that context and at that time. Yeah, and actually, that's a really good point about this whole virtual versus face to face as well, because in a face to face environment, you know, you would have had your lesson plan. You've got to hit X, you know, things that you need to give over, whereas actually in that situation of the pandemic, it was more about the engagement and the connection and people feeling as though they were part of something versus, oh, I've got five things I need to deliver. I'm going to just pick them off. And it is so much more challenging to engage an audience through a screen. And that is something that I learned, again, the same thing working in learning and development in a corporate going 95% of content being face to face and then going to 95% of content being delivered virtually and how we did that. And also the time. It was that element of going, we used to deliver an hour workshop or an hour session online virtually. That's an hour and a half. And you suddenly have to adjust your expectations from that perspective. So we thought that obviously was a challenge during the pandemic. But what for you is a continuing challenge or maybe a new challenge that you've come across in being able to stand up, speak up, speak out, get onto a stage, radio, whatever it may be? What is it that you either still find challenging or you found is a new challenge for you? Do you know what, for me, it's it's still it's getting into my head too much. And I think all of us do that as public speakers. People think that we are a mad species of people because we can stand up and deliver these things. I went to see a Lionesses game on Friday, went to Wembley and I said to my partner who sat next to me, I was like 80,000 people, 80,000 seats in this stadium. And I'd love to be doing what that host is doing down there and talking to 80,000. She's like, you're mad. You know, most people would say that you're crazy. But so the actual speaking to people I. Weirdly, has is not as much of a challenge to me anymore, and if you'd have told 15 year old me that I would have thought you were crazy as well, you know, but it's getting into your head now and I. I really find that on some some events and even when I was teaching, you know, if it was the first time I delivered something, I'd get into my head and I'd find that I was thinking as I was speaking, and that's then sort of where I trip up sometimes because I sit there and I go, I've got something coming up and I'm not 100% sure about that one. And I quite like to be comfortable as I speak. So, yeah, for me, that element of self-doubt, which most of us have anyway, for me, it just it gets into my head. You will know, as you mentioned, you know, you and I have worked on sports events together, pronunciations of people's names, you know, names for me is something that's very important. If you've got an athlete who's representing at any level, representing themselves and is achieving a final or whatever, I want to get their name right. But names can be challenging. And so for me, even if I've gone away and I've looked at that name 50 times before and spoken to colleagues about how to pronounce that name, or if it's a word, if you're working in a specialist context, you know, those sorts of elements for me is where my head just sort of sits there a couple of seconds before I'm going to say it. If it's a script and I see it on the piece of paper in front of me, I sort of take the deep breath and I'm like, here we go. That's the bit that trips me. That's that's the bit that I still find really challenging. And it's the things that matter. Like you're saying, it's really important to you to get somebody's name right, to make sure they are represented. And I think that's where we trip up the most, because I know from I don't I couldn't do it. I would struggle with my own name, never mind some of the names that I've seen you and others announce and pronounce. But again, it's the same thing about knowing that that's a challenge is figuring it out. And I've actually, interestingly, now since working with a lot of announcers, I take a lot more time because I've worked as a freelancer alongside the day job for for quite a long time as well. And I found it did come into my day job. So as the diversity of backgrounds and cultures were coming into a corporate environment, obviously, there's different names that I'm not used to saying and pronouncing. And one of the things that is really important to me is to try and check and then check. And I will always have a go. And I will always say, I'm not sure if I pronounce that correctly. Can you correct me? A lot of people say, oh, it's OK, just say this instead. It's very much a case of saying no, because it's very important. And it's what matters where we trip up that will, if you say, get it into your own head, the fear comes in. But I have always said that fear is a sign that you care. It's fear in the sense of you are afraid of doing it. But getting comfortable with being uncomfortable means that you'll take that step and do it anyway. But the fear will actually drive you to do the preparation and make sure that you've practiced it and checked with somebody as opposed to winging it as you go through. Which brings me very nicely on to my next question. So you've just said about the fact that obviously names is something that gets into your head or if you're teaching something new, how do you prepare when you're taking on any jobs, whether that is in teaching, whether that's radio or whether that's hosting an event? So preparation is key. You know, I've listened back to some of the other episodes of this podcast and so many people have said, you know, preparation is key. And for me, that is definitely the case. I can do things off the cuff, but I'd much rather take the time to sit and make sure that I know that I'm doing the right thing and that I feel comfortable with it. So the pronunciations and the words are definitely something on the sports side of things that, you know, that is my big target. And I am such a perfectionist. I, within myself, I think being a primary school teacher definitely does that to you as well. So, you know, if I know that if I get a name wrong, I'll try not to let it rattle me at the time, but that will be something that, you know, if I see the athlete's name on a piece of paper three years later, I'll go, oh, I got your name wrong. I'll say it will stay with me. So preparation for that is really key. If I'm doing an event where I'm interviewing somebody, then coming up with the questions beforehand, doing my research on people so I sort of know their background really and their context. Because again, if you're public speaking and you're interviewing somebody or you're talking about something, you want to sound like you know what you're talking about and you want to ask the right questions because there's nothing worse than you're sitting listening to an interview or a talk and you sit there and go, I really wanted you to ask this question or I really wanted to know this bit. So I always, when I'm preparing, sort of try and think of myself as a member of the audience. If I was sitting there watching what I'm about to present, what would I want to know? What would I want to ask? What would I want repeated for me because I might have missed it first time. And then, I mean, the best thing, and there's a couple of times I've had this, is when you get a full run through. So I did an awards dinner for the netball team that I worked with a couple of years ago and it was great because on the day, managed to get to go in beforehand. They'd done out the room, it looked incredible. Stage at the front and screens and everything. It was the first awards ceremony I'd done. And we got to do the full run through and we still talk about it now because the team who I worked with were like, there's no way we could do what you do. But we're just sitting through the run through and they're like, yeah, a video is going to play there. I'm like, OK, yeah, fine. I always try and stay really calm during the preparation. I try not to stress about it because I think if you have a really stressful prep, particularly if it's a run through, then you're going to feel heightened and the shoulders are going to be up when it comes to the actual event. So, yeah, for me, it's all about as much preparation time as I can, you know, a good amount of Googling or watching YouTube videos of athletes or whoever it is you're going to be working with, making sure you know what you're doing and just talking it over as much as you can and playing it out of your head. But then my final bit of preparation always is at least 20 minutes just to calm down before I start. So, you know, if I'm doing something starting at 10 o'clock, for example, about 9.45, I'll stop and have a cup of tea, put my notes away and just sort of clear my mind so that I come in with fresh eyes at 10 o'clock and I'm ready to go. And yeah, for me, I've learned to take that deep breath so that I'm not up here, you know, sort of running stressed all the way through the public speaking. And I think, as you say, preparation comes up time and time and time again. It's interesting because you mentioned about the fact that you're comfortable doing stuff off the cuff, but actually knowing. But interestingly, I don't know anybody who genuinely does something off the cuff because if you think about you're going to an event, so you research the sport, the people that are going to be there, you've probably got an idea of how it's going to run and the flow and everything. So effectively, you are prepared. So the off the cuff is probably can you fill for 30 seconds? And that then comes through as we've kind of had conversations before and don't want to insult so many announcers and commentators out there, but that ability to chat the rubbish, to just feel, to react to what's going on, to spot something in the crowd. But again, that comes through practice. So the preparation is having done it before, because every time you do it, you've got something that you know works. So you go back to it. So I've always thought that aspect of being able to do things off the cuff, interestingly, is never off the cuff because it's coming from somewhere. If I asked you to start talking about, I don't know, space or something like that, then yeah, you might have to do that off the cuff and you probably would struggle and you'd stumble over words and you'd probably go off on an absolute tangent. That is to me off the cuff, whereas going into something that you do as a role or a job, you've already done the prep, like, you know, the life experiences to prep. Yeah. And on a completely, because I love going off on a little bit of tangent, biscuit of choice to go with your cup of tea? Biscuit of choice. Oh, I like chocolate digestive always. Actual digestive or own brand. Are you in? I'm not picky. I'm not picky. There are other biscuits available, obviously. Other biscuits are available. But yeah, chocolate biscuit. Oh, you just, you can't go wrong. I will. I will make a mental note for when we work together in the future. Thank you. So the final question that I've got is what three things would you like to share with someone who's listening, who is seeking to take that opportunity to speak up, to step up and take that first opportunity of using their voice, whether that could be just been speaking in a team meeting, as we said, public speaking isn't just about getting on a stage. Actually, it's just talking in front of people and feeling confident that you can be yourself and bring what you want to do to that situation. So what three things would you like to share with somebody who would like to take those steps forward? So my first thing is go for it. I think so many people in the world, I know, and I come across and I work with and I'm friends with. So I could never do what you do. I absolutely could never do it. I couldn't public speak. It strikes the fear into me. And when I say to them, well, have you actually tried it? They go, no, no, I haven't. And, you know, there are those moments that we all have in life. And I think I speak to people who don't like public speaking, someone who does, you know, might be different. But there are moments, like I mentioned, you know, Wembley last week where you sit there and you go, oh, do you know what? I'd give that a go. Like if that stadium host handed me a microphone in front of 80,000 people, I'd give it a go. You know, or even in the team meeting, as you say, you might be somebody who just sits there and just does not speak. And I've worked with a few people at that in teaching back in time. You know, they will never, never speak up in a meeting, in a public forum. They will talk about it afterwards or they send an email or this and the other. But the power of what they were going to say is almost gone a little bit by then, because actually, if they'd have raised their voice in that meeting and said what they were going to say, then it would be part of that discussion. So my first thing is I would always say go for it. If you have that little inclination inside of you, just that thing of I might say something, go for it. Don't think about it, go for it. Because that could be, you know, the first step when it comes to public speaking. Second thing I'd say is know the hat you're wearing. So I, funnily enough, always used to teach my children this when I was thinking about a piece of writing. And it's the same with public speaking. So for me, I always think about my audience, my purpose and my context. So as part of my preparation, I always think about who am I going to be speaking to? Is it a big crowd, a small crowd? Is it a crowd? You know, if you're in a conference where people have the chance to put their hands up and interact, is it 900 people in a stand at a game where you can't really interact as much? What's your purpose? Are you there entertaining them? Are you there just announcing names? For me, one thing I love about public speaking is storytelling. I've come to realise that I'm a storyteller and I do what I do because I love sharing people's stories. That's why I love working in sports broadcasts because, you know, you get these athletes that are doing incredible things and sharing that story. So if that's your purpose, you know, prepare for that. And about your context as well, you know, if you're working in the corporate side of things, you need to know what you can say, what you can't say, what you need to say. And that always helps me to focus in on what I'm going to do. And I think gives me my confidence because that almost is almost my lifeline because I sit there and I go, OK, well, I know my audience is this. I know that this is my purpose. So I'm not going to say that because that wouldn't quite work. And the third thing probably sounds a little bit opposite of what you'd think, but it's to be a good listener. You know, as I said earlier on, I prepare by sessions and games and things like that by sitting there thinking, OK, if I was in the crowd today, if I was in my audience, would I want to hear this? Would it be beneficial to hear this? And if I'm doing a post-match interview, you know, what's the question? Actually, I would really, really want to know. And they all really want to know. So I always listen to or, you know, think about myself and my audience. Listen to your audience while you're talking and while you're delivering, you know, watch for those little signs of, you know, have you got hands up? Have you said something and all of a sudden you've noticed maybe it would have done guest lectures for education. Sometimes I say something and all of the people in the room start scribbling something down. And I always at that moment will try and give a little bit more information because in my head, either that's an important note or it's something they don't know what it is and they're going to go and Google later on. So if I see people reaching for a notebook, I'm sort of like, OK, well, you know, I have a little bit more on that. And listen to other people delivering talks. You know, we all listen to public speakers all the time. Public speaking is everywhere. So, yeah, I would say be a good listener because then you will develop your own approach, but also you will be able to be more effective and efficient in what you're doing because you're reading the situation around you and you're listening to what you need to do as a speaker. Fab. Thank you very much. I think it's that last one that you said then about almost actively listening. It sort of reminded me that you only seven percent of what you say and creating emotions or conveying emotions, which obviously, as you say, storytelling and et cetera, only seven percent is to do with the words. And if you think of how many people you have sat in the audience and listened to, what is it you remember about the people that are memorable? And a lot of the time, it's not specifically what they said. It's how they made you feel or how they engaged or the atmosphere that they created, or that it could have been like they shared something really, really pertinent that kind of made a connection with you. But you can't remember exactly what they said. You can paraphrase what they said. But, you know, how many people can quote, I saw this person and this is exactly what they said in their 20 minute keynote speech. It's more it was the gist of this and it made me feel. And as you said, you're actively then listening and responding and reacting to your audience, which I think is key when any of this sort of stand up in front of a group of people. But thank you so much for joining us today. And hopefully people have found your hints and tips and your route through. I love the fact that, as we said, we've made connections between primary school teaching, radio hosting and live event hosting in terms of actually all of them involve public speaking. And therefore, there is a lot of opportunity out there for people to take those first steps forward. And one of the phrases I always find I've used in an experience of how did you get to where you got is getting comfortable with feeling uncomfortable. Because once you realise that the hardest things do make you feel uncomfortable, but they're worth doing and that feeling isn't going to go away because it comes through fear of wanting to make an impact, wanting to be liked, fear of making sure that you've got a name right, that you're not going to offend somebody, is that you realise that actually, if you're comfortable with that and you take that step forward anyway, then what's the worst that could possibly happen in that situation? Yeah, we say that in teaching, a comfortable teacher becomes a complacent teacher, becomes an ineffective teacher. I taught the same year group and the same content for four years, but each year we refreshed it because otherwise I could just walk into the room without any preparation and go, here it is again, with the slides behind me. And actually then, am I being effective and am I delivering what my audience needs me to do? And your audience changes because you have different kids every year. Exactly. Thank you very much, James. It feels very weird to call you James because you are- Very formal. Very formal. Thank you, JP. Much appreciated. And that's everything for today.
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