Tiv-Full-Unedited

Tivoli Guthrie prefers to be called Tiv and not Pat. His name, Tivoli, is a Samoan name and not related to the Tivoli Gardens in Italy. Tivoli enjoys doing commentary for touch games and is passionate about the sport. He had a challenging experience doing 12 games in a row by himself in Fiji. Tiv launched a social media platform called Seven Touch in 2019 and has become one of the most influential people in touch rugby. He attributes his success to trial and error and his passion for the sport. His most engaged content was the highlights packages he created, starting with one on Remus Gentles. Tivoli Guthrie, what's your name my man? Kia ora Pat bro, not much. Does anyone other than like formal people call you Tivoli? My mum, when I'm in trouble. Yeah, is that actually it? Yeah. Because I think a lot of people have just grown on to the patariki thing, and very rarely does anyone even call me Pat. But Tivoli, is that like a, do you prefer to be called Tiv or you don't care? It's a lot easier to be called Tiv. So like if I am being introduced to someone, it's a lot easier for me to say, oh my name's Tiv, rather than, oh my name's, so Tivoli is actually the... Oh, so it's not Tivoli. No, no, it's Tivoli. Tivoli, so you like, you'd macron the E. Yeah. Drag the I. Drag the I, or there's the emphasis on the I. So I've been getting it wrong the entire time we've been friends, I've been calling you Tivoli. A lot of people do bro. Yeah, so Tivoli. It's definitely easier to say Tiv. Because if you added an extra I, you'd be like, Tivoli. So Tivoli. Oh no, what does that mean? Like, are you named after somebody? Yeah, my great-grandfather. So he was born, so I was born on his birthday. And my mum named me after him. A lot of people think it's from like Europe, because there's a place, I know there's like a place in Italy, there's the Tivoli Gardens, which is in, I think it might be Copenhagen. Oh right. So a lot of people think that it's Tivoli. Yeah, yeah. But it's Samhain. Ah, okay. So I'm going to call you Tiv, since I've been stuffing your name up for 10 years, well done. Well firstly, welcome bro. Happy New Year. Happy New Year, yeah. How did you bring it in? Asleep like me? Yes. Bro, I didn't make 10 a. I didn't make 10 p.m. I'm so old. Ever since we've had kids bro, there's less and less of an emphasis on staying up until 12. No fireworks in the old Thames Valley? Well, we went to Melbourne, and then we got back sort of on the 30th, 31st, that's sort of overnight, so we were just knackered bro. And goals for the year? For 2024? Yeah. Big year for you and the fans, but any personal Mahi sport goals? At the moment I'm doing a bit of commentary stuff. How's that, eh? I like to flesh that out. The new voice of touch, folks. Cut it out. That's just something I enjoy. Yeah, you're pretty good at it, eh? I mean, your touch IQ obviously helps, but you obviously do a bit of research. I was really impressed with the Fijian Cup stuff we did. Yeah, I mean, research probably comes in, so I feel like just the passion that you have for the game shines through. It's a lot easier to be invested when you're passionate about it. So I feel like because I'm passionate about touch, if I'm talking it, that sort of shines through. And it's not easy to do, eh? No. Not 12 games in a row by yourself. With half a— Oh. Oh, yeah. It was a tough carry that one. Fun fact, guys, I said to Tiv, I said, bro, should you come over and do some commentary with us in Fiji? We'll put you on a plane, come over. Tiv's like, yeah, bro, got you. I didn't tell him he was going to do it by himself. And I actually did, to be fair. I didn't know we were just doing rolling coverage. I thought it was like New Zealand with TNZ, you know, we do six games or whatever, and, you know, there's a break. Nah, bro, not in Fiji, bro. We were on SkySport 1, 12 games in a row. Mans had no voice on day two. Yeah, bro, it was a tough carry, and it got to the point where I think maybe three or four games in, you were a write-off. Oh, yeah, nah. Well, we're sitting in this— Just for context, folks, we were in this little-ass box at the top of where the sun, like, it was just ridiculous. I was never— I got—I did Tiv's intros, and then I gaffed it. I left, yeah. And then it was me by myself. I was literally trying to pull players from teams that were in the grandstands, and I'm like, please, come and do a game with me. I need somebody. You were pretty—you know, six out of ten, we all right. You pulled in some good ones, and then there were some people I was thinking, yeah, just what are you up to. But no, I appreciate your money, bro. It was awesome. And you did Māori Touch for us as well. I did Māori Touch. That was pretty cool. That was an experience as well. But, you know, obviously not being Māori myself, tried to brush up on the old reo. But, yeah, got to do a couple of games with Hicks, which was cool. Yeah, the man, eh? And then I did my first game with Shano, Dr. Edwards. Oh, Dr. Edwards. Did you get a word in? Yeah. We were going off a monitor that wasn't working. So we were trying to—you know, it was a 16 boys game. You know a few, but probably not enough to do the game justice. But, yeah, got through it. Had a couple of games with Rod Walker and then Hicks on the second day. And then you also put a whakatane under your belt. Yeah. So you played many a whakatane, and this was the first commentary one for you? Yeah, bro. Bang, bang, bang. Oh, good. You know, it's sort of been a busy summer so far. Pacific Cup not good enough for you, or what happened there? So I said yes ages ago. You did. I got the screenshots. And then the opportunity came to play, and I hadn't played a Pacific Cup. So good. Don't worry. Samoa's not playing this year, so you've got no excuse of bangers. No, but I'm stoked, bro, to have you on for a couple of reasons. One is, you know, obviously one of the boys, it would be good to share some of your touch story. And I know you're going to get a little iffy about this, but you have to be one of the, if not the, most influential people in our sport at the moment. And we're about to explain why very shortly. But I feel like I'm big on 2024. My goal this year, bro, is to give people their flowers. I feel like, and metaphorically speaking, I didn't actually get any flowers. But I feel like it's really important to acknowledge people in a sport where seldom is there any acknowledgement. It's really tough to actually find people that'll say thank you out loud in person or on a stage that isn't private, and let that simmer and sink in, folks. But today is really just about acknowledging some of your mahi before we get into your service. And the biggest thing, in my opinion, is the mahi that you've done since 2019, launching a social media platform called Seven Touch. That's the one. Is this the first time we've ever told anybody out loud properly that it's you? Yeah. People can't keep secrets, but this is the first time we've officially said something? Sort of on the record, yeah. Going back to Maori's, Dr... And it's all good, bro, because like you said, it's probably not so much a secret anymore, but it's probably the first time that I've sort of said it out loud. Was there any reason why you didn't tell anyone at first? So at the time, I had the notion of, you know, it would sort of not taint, but it would have an influence or an effect on the growth of the page if I was to put a name to it, whether positively or negatively, and I wanted the focus to be solely on the content. But, yeah, that quickly got outstripped, and a lot of people ended up being like, man, who runs this page? Yeah, it was a pretty, I mean, in my opinion, a pretty well-kept secret other than those in, I guess, the know, right? Because, I mean, I was at TNZ for the best part of a year and a half, and it wasn't until halfway through there that, I guess, they officially had it confirmed to them that it was you, but for the most part, there was just a lot of assumptions. I mean, at one point, did you ever think, oh, I should just tell everybody, or nah? No. Yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. Oh, yeah, like it was, you know, a little bit of the way through where, yeah, like I said, it kind of, the drive for people to know, you know, who was running the page sort of outstripped what I had intended. Yeah, the mystique. Yeah, so I felt like get on the front foot, even though it's probably well past due. Yeah, and, I mean, you did a year in summary, you know, at the end of last year, and just sort of, or was it the beginning of this year? End of last year. End of last year. We really reflected on the comeback year, because you took some time off, but for the most part, this has to be the most followed and engaged with independent platform in the sport anywhere in the world. I mean, I'd argue that there's no one else. My numbers are pretty good, but I'm not seven touch level. But, and I think there's a few reasons for that, right? And we talked about just before your passion for touch, obviously, with the commentary, but that obviously extends now into what you're doing with Seven Touch, but you just, your content's pretty good, eh? Like, are you all self-taught or what? Yep. So, yeah, I wish I could say that I went to uni and did marketing or comms or whatever, but no, it's all just trial and error, bro. What was the most engaged piece of content you've done, like, of all time, since you started in 2019? What was the one that, or actually, let me rephrase that question. I might edit this out. Nah, we'll leave it. What was the piece of content that you think got you on that, like, yo, this is the momentum, it starts there? So, if we're talking the whole four years, I think the very first highlights, the first two, I'd say, highlights packages that I put out, the first one was on Remus. Remus Gentles. Strategic? Yeah, well, you know, like, not a lot of people have had the opportunity to see Re in his prime, and even I was one of them. Like, when I started to really, you know, find my footing and touch, he was, you know, respectfully in his sort of latter years, sort of about 2008. Yeah. And I remember I only saw him play at one whakatane for Too Sharp, but then you find out that he's got this whole back story of, you know. Back catalogue of success. That's it, bro. So, I had stumbled across a page on Facebook called The X Club, run by a well-known Canterbury legend down in Christchurch, and he was uploading during lockdown, you know, just whole games, and one of them he had was the 1995 Touch World Cup. Was that Hawaii? Hawaii, where Remus pretty much tore Australia apart in the round game and in the semifinal, as well as a whole heap of other nationals finals and stuff like that. He had uploaded and I cheekily, yeah, apologies. Jacked it all. Yeah, yeah, and put it together and, yeah, I don't think he minds, but putting that all together, that was probably the bit that got the ball rolling because not a lot of people had the chance to see it. And then the second one was Benji Marshall playing for Australia. I mean, at that point, did you think you were on to something or was it just a hobby, or what was the thing behind launching Seven Touch? Bro, it's funny, I haven't actually told you this, but around sort of 2018, 2019, I had an idea of launching the first podcast. Of course you did. Specific to Touch. Of course you did. Sorry about that. And then, yeah, so that was in the works. Oh, was it? And then, so even before Touch Project, Touch IQ, yeah, that had come out. I did a couple on those with... Wade. Dos, yeah, with Wade. Yeah, yeah, when Pili hit us up for that, I still remember that vividly. Yeah, bro, so I remember... Oh, I cut your lunch twice. You pulled the rug from underneath him, bro. Oh, sorry, my bad. No, like, so I had that idea, and then I think, it would have been sort of maybe a month had gone by and I hadn't done anything, and then I saw a post on Facebook from the page and it said, we're looking for someone to host a podcast with us. And then that kind of like cut me a little bit. And then I thought, well, I'll try and, you know, sort of pivot and just find something that, you know, Touchy's going to get behind, and then that's how Seven Touch was born. Did it piss you off when that Touch IQ one only lasted two episodes? No, no, no, because I think... It would have pissed me off. At the point, bro, it was not as though, like, I had any gear or any ideas or what have you. We did it on the phone. Oh, did you really? No shit, no lies. When Pals and Wado hit me up, they said, you know, we should do it, because then you had a radio background, and obviously I'd been emceeing the Touch NZ events or whatever, so they hit me up and said, bro, you can launch a podcast tomorrow on your phone. Like, you know, there was a... We used Anchor, which doesn't exist anymore. It was like Spotify or something. We use something called Buzzsprout now, but back then when we launched it, it was on Anchor, which you could just... I remember me, Kava, and Doss sat on this table and my old fuddy and marngere, and we did it on this phone. Like, we recorded it on the phone, which is, when you look at what we do now and how things have evolved over time, kind of buzzes me out. But, oh, bro, you should still launch a podcast. We've talked about it. Yeah, yeah, we have. And I think there's probably room for it. Yeah, 110. I had plans to sort of start something... I mean, I stop every three months, so you'd be fine. It'd be the same as a page. Oh, bro. I had plans to start one later on in the year. Yeah. And... You get a Pete Walters interview before me, I'll burn your house down. That would piss me off, bro. But, no, it's the... I suppose my thinking would be where it sort of differentiates from yours. I'd probably focus more on the on-field stuff. Yeah, oh. And get sort of stories of on-field and... This is a bit like Touch Breakdown. Shout-out to my manager. Shout-out to Chopper. So that would be the idea if I was to do one later in the year, but that's sort of in the works at the moment. It's a bit like we were just talking before off-air about, like, content creators and how there's, like, 50 million content creators now, whereas three years ago you couldn't take a photo. I think there's room, bro. Do another podcast. There could be another five podcasts. I said to Connor at secondary school, hey, what happened to your thing that you did once and didn't do again? It'd be cool. You know, to get different, you know, avenues on different stories and different perspectives. I think, bro, there's no such thing as a monopoly on anything, in my opinion. Yeah. With the caveat that if you get a Peter Walters interview before me I'll be salty forever. Salty. But that's the thing, though, is that, like, there's room for everyone at the table. It doesn't have to be, yeah, like you said, monopolised where, you know, there's a ban on footage and stuff. Well, the way I see it is, yeah, the more eyes and ears on touch, the better, right? And I think that's the motivation behind trying to tell these stories. The more stories that we tell and shine light on them, which is why I think, bro, Seven Touch is just a gift, a gift to our sport. And the fact that you do it for free from your whare at three in the morning for no money, it's beyond comprehension for me because the sole reason why this podcast was able to return is because I convinced the people to give me some money because for so long it was costing me, you know, and it's little things that add up that people probably don't realise, like the subscription to put the thing on Buzzsprout is a couple hundred bucks US a year. And I know that doesn't sound like a lot of money, but, bro, it all adds up and the time you take away from my hair and, you know, the emotional stress. So I can't imagine what you go through with Seven Touch considering you get all these comments and you've got to moderate and you've got to go through all of that stuff. Was there a post that you put up that generated, you know, some thinking where you thought, oh, this is probably a little bit bigger than what I thought it was? Yeah. Yeah. And it was probably a bit of a turning point for the page in it because, like, at the time, so, yeah, I put out a post a couple of years ago, two or three years ago, and it sort of highlighted a phantom that was caught on the field in a big final. And, yeah, to be fair, it wasn't really fair to the player in question. They get a bit of a stick, did they? Yeah, bro. Yeah. And I reached out and apologised, but that doesn't excuse the post. So it kind of made me stop and think about, you know, what sort of content you do actually want or what kind of light that you want to shine on the sport. And it's the other stuff that happens in the other, you know, 39 minutes of a game that I should be highlighting as opposed to something that will, you know, potentially get likes or comments or whatever. Focus on the bigger picture. Well, yeah, I just feel like there's a lot of negativity, you know, and I think for, especially our sports, amateur user pays, you know, we need all the positive light we can get on our sport. And I guess from that moment on, you know, if this was a couple of years ago, now you took a break for a solid 12 months in between that, right? Yeah. Yeah, so that was a little bit after that post, but, yeah. As a result of, or no? No. No, you just needed some time to figure some stuff out. Yeah, like probably get some material as well as, I probably felt a little bit burnt out, you know, sort of underestimating the toll that it takes. How many hours a week do you spend on Seven Touch, do you reckon? Probably too much. On an average week? An average week, probably, I'd say maybe 20. Wow. 20 to 25. My wife would probably say that it's more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably more. So that's a half, that's a full-time job almost, you know, well, part-time job in a 48-hour week, but really spend 20 hours a week because there's the finding the footage, the editing, the figuring out, because you do really well. Like, I mean, even some of the stuff when you, which I genuinely and wholeheartedly appreciate, when you'll take a snippet of the podcast, you turn that in, so that Shiloh post you did, how long that would take you? Oh, that was actually quick, bro. Oh, yeah. I've got that Shiloh post probably 45 minutes. Really? Half an hour, 45 minutes. We're going to monetise this, bro. Yeah, bro, like, I don't know, I've just got this, because I'm so passionate about Touch, I've just got this memory when it comes to, you know, I know specific points and specific games from specific tournaments, and I know who features. You're a strange man. Yeah, it's weird. And I guess when you look at the numbers, because you had some pretty good growth last year, and I just want to just break it down to give some context. I remember when you were in the 8,500, 9,000 mark and we were talking about hitting 10K and how that was going to be a pretty momentous occasion. Yeah. Particularly because you did it first, you know, in terms of independent Touch platforms in New Zealand. I don't know about the rest of the world, but, you know, you cracked that 10K, and I thought that was pretty dope. I thought that was cool too. Now you're over 20. Yeah. And that happened in the space of a 12-month period almost. Yeah. Like, what does that come down to? Consistency, the type of content? You've obviously got some big names engaged in it now because you're all that exists within Touch fully. I think it's a mixture of things, bro. So, like, consistency is definitely one thing. It's a lot easier to get eyes on your page when you're consistent with your posting. Yeah, 100%. You know, I don't know how the algorithm works, but I like to think I do. So, yeah, there's the consistency with what I'm posting as well as I think the reach was another thing, another big thing in the last year. People get fascinated by the amount of people that like your post, but what I don't think people understand is that the real magic is in the reach of the posts and so I don't get too fixated on the number of people that give me a heart. I just care if you're telling your friends about it, if you're sharing it, if you're, you know, that's the stuff that matters. In the real world, in whanau, that's where the money is, is in reach. Yeah. Yeah, so I think it would have been, because last year was a massive year for Touch, especially internationally. Yeah, the return, right? Yeah, exactly. So there was, like, talking specifically international Touch, there was Trans-Sasman in April, there was the Asia-Pacific Youth Touch Cup in May, the Atlantic Youth Touch Cup in, I think it was July, Euros, which was in August, and then Pacific Cup, which was in November, December. So with that amount of international tournaments and being sort of the, one of the only dedicated platforms to Touch. Do you feel a sense of responsibility to that? Yeah, a little bit. And a lot of the, like, comments or messages that I would get would be, you know, oh, are you thinking, are you potentially going to cover, you know, Touch in Europe or Touch in the States or, you know, and there's sort of a market there. So I took a little bit of onus to, you know, commit to covering those tournaments, and then I think that's when the reach really started to grow. I think, and I've often said this about our sport, and you and I have absolutely had these conversations before, and it's the fact that our sport will only grow if more eyes and ears are exposed to it. And the only way for that to happen is if independent people take it on themselves to do that because, and I have to be absolutely respectful here, the NSOs don't care unless it makes them money. So everything's done for the purpose of generating numbers which lead to money, and that's just the world we live in. The challenge there is that that's often always directly linked to commercial objectives, and so things have to happen because they need to tick a box. And that's 2024, and that's the world that we live in when they've got people to pay, et cetera, et cetera. I'm not hating on anybody for doing that. The problem is the sex appeal of our sport actually lives in the areas that aren't controlled by the NSO. We talk about whakatane, we talk about all of these different things are completely independent from the NSO, so if it's not for a seventh touch, how would we know about these things? They don't exist. So that's what I'm saying, bro. You don't get the flowers, bro. You get the forest. You're it. And our sport is in a great debt to you and to Seventh Touch because when you say we, it's actually just you. There's no team. You don't have a team of content creators that are collating stuff for you. People might give you hot tips, or they might send you a YouTube video, or you might find some VHSes and see some footage, but there's no machine in Thames Valley working for you, is there? No, no. There's no factory or anything. But I suppose when I say we, it's more of a collective thing, like the main driver of the page and what keeps it ticking over at the rate that it's ticking over is the community. I can't do any of this stuff without a good community, and touch is probably one of the most social sports across the whole world. So when you're talking about a touch community, everyone, it doesn't matter where you live, we're all tight-knit, both within a specific country as well as cross-country as well. Yeah. And has there been a moment where you go, oh, this is why I do it? I suppose that happens quite often. Things like people saying on social media that they enjoy the content, yes, that's probably the main driver of continuing to do what I do. So if we're at year five now, right, 2019, what does year six, seven, eight, nine, ten look like for Seven Touch? I'd like to think that it would continue to grow and as a result get more eyeballs onto touch. Because I suppose we've been through a bit of a lull period, eh, where the way that the game improves or has been a lot more exciting on the field, but that doesn't necessarily translate in terms of commercial partnerships or sponsorships, big funders. So I think the more that I can shine a light on the sport, the better. That's sort of why the page started in the first place. Eyes and ears, bro, eyes and ears. Trying to get those eyes and ears on the product. And then I suppose, personally, just trying to create something that touchies from around the world will be able to be proudly associated with or proudly support. So there's a sort of two-way relationship there. So that would allow me to do things like launch a training programme or launch a skills programme or release a playbook or something that touchies from all over the world can use. And have you ever explored other, like I know you dabble with the YouTube and you're on Facebook, but Instagram's the main platform for you, yeah? Yeah, it's the main one. I'm looking to grow that though. So I want to try and put more of an emphasis on being diverse. So yeah, like you said, Instagram's the main one at the moment. Facebook I am on, but it probably doesn't hit the same type of numbers as Instagram. Facebook's an interesting one, eh? I mean, I don't even bother anymore. Stuff just goes to Facebook because it's linked to the Instagram, but unless you're over 45, Facebook's not really happening. It's kind of a coming to funk thing. So like I've got a goal of posting consistently on TikTok and YouTube, especially with YouTube Shorts as well, I feel like that's another place where... Yeah, I ain't messing with the Shorts. I hear some stuff about it, but... It depends, right? It depends on what you consume. But if you are only on TikTok, for example, there might be someone on the other side of the world who doesn't deal with TikTok, and they would prefer to watch all their content on YouTube, whether that's short form or long form. So trying to diversify and get onto all of these different platforms so that there's something for everyone, no matter where you consume your content. You reckon people are scared? As in, any so's in that? Yeah, just in general. People that control our sport. Scared of seven touch? Scared of seven touch. Oh, I probably felt like that for a little bit. But I suppose my response would be to just sort of let the guard down a little bit and kind of let any so's or people that are in power know that I'm not there to step on anyone's toes. I'm purely there to help grow the game. But yeah, there was probably a period where I did feel a lot of that, especially the bigger ones were a little bit intimidated. We're talking about money, right? Dollars and cents. Yeah, and potentially... You know, commercial deals, broadcast deals, whatever. Yeah, yeah. And potentially taking that away from them. Which is why I kind of stopped posting specific types of content. Are you open to working with them? Yeah. If someone reached out and said, Hey, Tiv, heard the podcast or been following for a long time. I hear you. We'd love to collaborate on a campaign. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You're totally open to that? 100%. Because it's, like I said, it's a community. It's a collaborative effort by everyone and everyone sort of has a responsibility to help grow the game. That's sort of how the name came about. The name of Seven Touch. So, like, initially it came about because, so the 2013 TransTAS that we won for the New Zealand men's, if you go back and look at some of the highlights, I think maybe one or two of the most crucial sets of the game, we got seven touches instead of six. And I think it was either Maia or David Baggio that accidentally gave us an extra touch on two occasions towards the back end of game two, which was the second game that we won to clinch the series. And I thought that was like a bit of a cheeky ode to that, to call it Seven Touch. But when I thought about it a little bit more, it was probably, you know, like there's six touches on the field and then Seven Touch could be like, you know, what we do off the field to help promote or grow the game. And everyone has that sense of responsibility or, you know, should feel that type of duty. Duty of, not duty of care, but duty of, you know, growing the game. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's certainly a responsibility that we all have, right, in our own different ways. Yeah, exactly. Some people give 10 years service as a player. Yep. Some people steal Tiv's idea of doing a podcast a couple of times. There we are. But, yeah, and it's not just limited to that, you know. Like you said, player, coach, manager, administrator, volunteer, referee. It's just on that, though. You people in power that go, OK, Tiv City's happy to help. Bring your checkbook with you, you know. You know, we know there's money out here, folks. And, you know, exposure ain't free, honey. So let's just be clear. I can direct inquiries to Pat. He can be my agent. I'm the booking agent. Or my wife. You know, if you're community, fair enough, collab. If we're selling logos and sponsors, bring your checkbook. You heard it here. What is next, though, for you in terms of the Touch Project, of Seven Touch? You know, like, you know, this year was a big year in terms of, well, last year, rather. You did some stuff with the merch. Did that go all right? Merch went all right, yeah, yeah. Probably trying to flesh that out a little bit. Flesh out the training programs. I'd really love to help people from across the world improve their touch without having to, you know, travel halfway across the world to get it. You know, like, things like building a solid skills base or putting out, like I said, some playbooks or, you know, some documents about defensive structures. Yeah. Stuff like that. I'd love to, yeah, to do that. I know there's a page on YouTube, Touchscreen, that does all of that stuff as well. And that's, you know, just another example of these independent, you know, bodies that do what they can. And, you know, the one that I've done recently has been the training program, so how to get touch-specific fit as opposed to, you know, just sort of training to train. Fleshing out that a little bit. I'm open to some coaching. I was slated to go to World Cup earlier this year, but just due to changes in personal circumstance can't go, but I was due to coach. So I'd be open to coaching, whether that's remotely or... And so that's Seven Touch, and I guess that's the product or the byproduct or end product or whatever product of the fact that you talk about your level of love and care and experience in the game. Like, you've got a bit of a touch resume yourself, right? Yeah, well. But impactful. We talked 2013. And so you represented New Zealand. You've been a part of the high-performance sort of program there, and it's something that, you know, that you're proud of in terms of the time that you spent playing touch. Yeah. So I played New Zealand men's for three years. Yeah. 2011, 2012, 2013. That's 80 grand. No, no. From mum and dad, thank you, dad. That was during the high-performance funding era, wasn't it? Yeah, so 2011 we didn't get high-performance funding, and that was when World Cup was in Scotland, and there was me and my brother that were in the team as well. So shout out, mum and dad, for covering that. And then, yeah, 2012 we did get high-performance funding, and 2013 as well. So it made it a little less stressful. Look what happens when you pay. When you don't have to pay, rather. You win. Yeah. I think that was probably part of it. So when Peter Mac took over the New Zealand men's, he kind of had a core group that he took from his first stint, from his first tournament, which was 2009. And the differences in terms of playing personnel between 2009 and 2013 were real minimal. And, you know, across those years the teams were real consistent. But I think probably the difference was that in 2003, or part of the difference in 2013 was that, you know, we could get players like Henry Dunn, or we could get Whitiawa Black to come back, you know, like dudes that would carve up nationally or, you know, our nationals, but especially hens, you know, like you didn't really get the opportunity on the world stage. So the fact that the cost was a little less, you know, probably helped to get them over the line. And, I mean, during your stint as a touch black, because we could go right back to the beginning, but I think it's the bits that probably define the level of, I guess, touch hockey that you do have, would that experience as a touch black be to blame for the love that you have for touch, or does that start at the very beginning? It would have started at the beginning and then developed as I was a touch black. Yeah. So, yeah, especially because of my role within the team. Yeah. I think it came from Mac, you know, like we had plenty of strike, and it started from our club side, and then through to Auckland and then New Zealand, like we had plenty of strike, but we just needed someone to be able to put those players in the position to strike. So that's probably where the IQ came from. Your brother's obviously Tama Guthrie, and he's got a bit of a success resume himself. You can go back and listen to him season two, folks, if you can. Growing up, was touch always a thing for you guys? I think so. Like, we dealt with it in footy, but both him and I, we were too small, basically. I suppose it's the same as a lot of touch players. You know, you're probably a bit too small to be considered successful when it came to the contact codes. So if there was a pathway there in touch to represent internationally, then that would be the route to take, and that's the one that we took. Who looped you into touch? What was the conduit between figuring out what was next and then actually playing touch? So we started playing... So we're from Grey Lynn, which is in central Auckland, and like a minute walk down the road is Grey Lynn Park, and there was a touch module there every Thursday and Friday night. And in the 90s, there were dudes, like a who's who of touch, like Walters would play Remus, as I said, Jason Silimaka, Chucky Toomai, Lincoln, like there were heaps of legends that would play down at Grey Lynn Park. And then, yeah, Tama sort of got into it first, and then there's two of our sisters, Pele and Ari, in between us, and they followed him. And I didn't want to be left out, so I followed them, and we all played for a club down there called Shere Khan Tigers. And then it was a pretty simple process because there were some pretty strong ties between the Shere Khan Tigers module and Auckland Touch, so we were able to represent Auckland from like under 9s, 9s, 11s, 13s, 15s, 17s. So you just Auckland through and through then? Pretty much, yeah. And I guess from that moment working through, when do you start engaging with the likes of Maka and Peter McIntyre and all these different people? When do they begin into the journey? So for me personally, it would have been about 2007. So Tama had been under their guidance for a couple of years. He played a little bit of Galaxy, and then Peter McIntyre started a team with pretty much the basis of what was the Playing Up Club, just to try and bring them through the grades and hopefully translate that into Auckland and New Zealand. He came into my journey probably about 2007, 2008. Yeah, Tama had been in the system for a couple of years and it was pretty much a natural thing. You know, bring your brother along. Get him to play for a little bit. But then that sort of 2008 right through to 2013, it was just, it was pretty rapid. It went pretty quick. And I guess back then the process or however things are decided was drastically different, or was it, to how things are done today in 2024. But I mean, how quickly on that journey did you realise, oh, yo, I'm actually onto something here? Because you're playing rep footy, but I guess that's representative by default, right? It was a little bit, yeah. When do you start getting told how you do this and things might get better for you? It was 2008 Nationals. So in Whanganui. And I was playing under 21. So at that Nationals they had made, they had named teams for what was supposed to be the Youth World Cup the following year, 2009. And my coach at the end of 2008 Nationals, because they named the teams after the final, my coach, Ben, tena koutou koutou, he came up to me. I had no idea, but he was like, oh, you know, I just got word from one of the selectors that, so I don't get picked. But he was saying that part of the reason why was, whether he was bullshitting or not, I don't know. But he goes, part of the reason why is because of your age. So 2008 I would have been 15. And he said, but you know, come back with us next year and we'll sort of try and get you to that next level. But then throughout the course of the year a couple of players dropped out of the 21 team which was who Tama was named to play in. A couple of players had dropped out and so Peter Mac asked me and a good mate of mine, Wesley, Seth Weaver, to jump in and go to a couple of camps and then that ended up in selection. So that's probably where it started. Talk to me about Peter McIntyre, because he's another one I'll never get on this frickin' thing. Gotta be one of the greatest minds in the sport in New Zealand, right? Or just in general. I can get lost in his words half the time because I don't understand what he's saying. But for the most part, he's very similar to, I guess, your approach. He obviously cares about touch so much that it just comes through in every different interaction. But can you give us some examples of when you thought, yo, this dude's on? One small but probably now obvious thing was around 2008, 2009. He changed the game by putting a lot more emphasis in New Zealand on positions. So prior to that, it was kind of like, especially the New Zealand team, you'd pick 14 of the best players rather than the best players by position. And that's just because positioning wasn't really a thing back in those days. So when he took over in 2009, he really put a stamp on, no, no, no, so there are middles, there are links, and there are wings. And this is your role. You nail your role, you'll get selection, and you'll get better and better and better. And that's why dudes like Cav and Ratty are able to play 50 tests is because they had the selflessness to say, yeah, I'll play on the wing. If that means I get a black singlet, I'll play on the wing. And not only that, I'll get better at it, and I'll be the best in the world at it too. Because you get to spend, I guess, more time with this dude than a lot of other people. Do you feel like that certainly, I guess, impacted your experience as a touch player? It was a lot easier. Because he was coach for playing up as well as Auckland, I got to have trainings, and he explained the technical, tactical side of touch, and I was able to catch on to it because coming up through that sort of period, that became second nature to me. But then you go to Touch Blacks camps, and he's saying the same stuff, and then you get dudes from outside of Auckland that are like, what, are you on about, what does that mean? Slow down, we're trying to understand what you're talking about. But yeah, he's just got that, like you said, that passion, just the way that he's able to think about the game, and that because he speaks about it so passionately, he's able to get that buy-in from the boys. Do you think that you would have liked to have spent a little bit more time in the black singlet, or when you decided it was done, it was done? Yeah, I would have liked to have spent a little bit more time, but that just comes down to, you know, personal sort of things. There wasn't anything that was outside of my control. Like I played, I think I was thinking about it the other day, like I played maybe 15 tests, and it was all before I had turned 20. So like I probably left a whole heap of tests and tournaments on the table, but yeah, that was just due to me sort of not keeping myself in good shape and putting myself in the position to be able to make the team year after year. Any thoughts in terms of returning to the field? Like I know you're in for a run at Pacific Cup, but like any, I guess, eagerness to do that in a little bit more of a formal capacity? I don't know, like I suppose you never say never, but as the years tick on, it's probably a little bit... What are you now, 30? 30, yeah. 30 and 30 kgs over what I should be playing in terms of playing... Let's not play the weight game, brother. But Rahul's asked me to come back a couple of times, or not come back, but like sort of... Go for a run. Go for a run. So I played Auckland 2019, and man, I realised it's a whole different game these days back to when I was playing, bro. Kids are crazy now, eh? Unreal, man. It's like the skill level, the fitness, the athleticism. So I'm happy to watch on the sideline and post about it. Talking about posting about things, is there a moment where you go back and watch and reflect on something that you've been a part of and were so stoked that you could, like... 2013. That was the pinnacle. So 2013, fuckers, whakatane. We won with playing up, and then February we went to Trans-Tasman, we won that, and then Nationals we won with Auckland as well. So there was four of us. Trifecta. Yeah, yeah. So Mac sort of alluded to it in the fuckers commentary. I was pulling his leg a little bit to carry on, but he actually carried on talking about it. I was like, no, no, no, stop, stop, stop. But there was four of us. So Mac was the coach for all of those three campaigns, and then there was myself, Tama, Gary Riley, and Dan, Tupu Seliva. And there were us four that played in all three tournaments, and that's probably, yeah, I'd say the peak of my time in touch. You mentioned whakatane, and we talk about that often, but is that like the holy grail of club touch? Like when you win a fuckers title, is that everything that I make it to be? Yeah, it is. And I think it has been for a long time, so it has that historical aspect to it as well. Is that the thing? Is it the legacy factor, you reckon? That's probably what carries it, and the fact that it's such a hard tournament to win. Do you think that plays a factor in the success rate? Like you've got to go 3-5, no water. I'd say it is the single biggest factor, because basically the way that fuckers works, if you lose a game in the round game, you're pretty much done. So every game is high stakes, and that makes it high intensity, and because it's high intensity, the games are shorter, it's harder to win and wrestle back momentum. And so that's when you get the passion sort of boiling over, and people start to try and influence referees, and really get in their face in that. So they still will die from the giddy up. Pretty much, and that's why it's so hard, because you have to win five or six consecutive games throughout the day in a shorter game period, and that's why it makes it so hard to win, because there's that element of luck too. Do you think that will ever change, or that it needs to stay that way? I wouldn't say it needs to stay that way, but some of the other tournaments that are coming up are really sort of stamping its mark, and having its place, especially the club calendar. Like 10K is a massive one now. Nays is doing down there. Yeah, this weekend, so shout out Nays. The mahi that he's doing with Kaiowa in that tournament, hopefully can strengthen touch in South Island, but comps like that. And then you've got all of the other, the smaller competitions that probably don't attract the bigger names in terms of clubs, but still would be just as important. And I think we talked about earlier, with content creators or podcasts or platforms, the more the merrier, right, in terms of opportunities for our club teams, which I still maintain is the bread and butter of high performance in New Zealand, whether or not it's acknowledged that way. Whakatane is kind of it. I've talked to a lot of people that have sat in that seat and told me, I'm told you wannafuckers don't talk to me. You could probably name who said that. But that's how high in regard that title is held up, right? Yeah, it is. I don't even think Louie and Dan have been to sleep yet. You know, they still sleep with their Whakatane title. Hey, PJ. Saw Louie yesterday, actually. How's he doing? I was surprised not to see him in his pink top. Is he taking the singlet off yet or no? He took the strip off. I think they sacked their coach. No, coach. Anyway, is it that significant of an achievement? Obviously, right? Yeah, it is. And just because it is such a hard tournament to win. Because as well as like the nature of the tournament, there's genuinely like six to eight teams that could win if the chips fall their way. Because you look at it like on paper, anyone can win. Yeah. Because now that I've known a little bit more than I did five years ago, you know that these teams are stacked the most talented touch players ever. But for whatever reason, it always seems to be the same semifinals. Chips have got to fall your way. Yeah, right. Like part of it is who you draw in the pool. So placing is super important? Placing is super important. Like as an example, so on the weekend, first game of the day, Aswan and Lachan, which are two of, you know, probably in the top five clubs in the nation, arguably. Yeah. They had the first game of the day and they had to hit the ground running and they came to a draw. And in the way that their pool was drawn, they also had Elements who sort of in and around that sort of top five or definitely top ten. Featuring Dylan Hennessy. Yeah, exactly. Just a young girl pool. And then Huskies as well, and they all sort of traded wins, losses and draws. Yeah. You know, the points differential came into play. So is it points stuff on that? It didn't end up being because Aswan didn't drop a game, whereas each of the other teams dropped a game. But then on the flip side, you look at the playing up loaded pool. So playing up beat loaded, but then playing up lost to, I think it was Finesse, one of the other teams. So them and loaded finished on the same amount of points and then it came down to points differential. So it's, yeah, there's that element of luck in there, and the chips have to fall your way, and that's why it's such a hard one to win. Is there a club that hasn't won, that you are surprised hasn't won yet? Loaded. Oh, they haven't won yet? They haven't won yet. They must be the only thing they haven't won. Yeah, I'd say so. I know they've done the 10K a couple of times. The 1K over last year. Yep. So Fuckers is probably the one that's eluded them, but I think the 25 minutes probably plays against them. They're a team that's fit as, you know. A fiddle. A fiddle, that's exactly what I was going to say. And, you know, they're, because it's only 25 minutes, that sort of nullifies their advantage of being fitter than the other team. Yeah, right. So that's probably one reason why. But luck of the draw as well. I remember one year there were five pools instead of four, and they took the top four teams out of the five pools. So one team missed out. That was the year the Suns won that one. That was the year that they didn't get it right. I think we might have won it, actually. Because they won all their games, but they didn't go through to the semis. Yeah, right. So that was their pool that didn't get through. Yep. So, like I said, luck of the draw. Yeah, yeah. Right, so I'm keen to understand, like in terms of some of the highlights of yours, we've talked about 2013 and that year, there must have been some standout people that have contributed to, I guess, your journey and what's kept you involved and engaged in Touch 40. Who are some of the people that, you know, off the top of your head, you think, yo, without you there'd be no Seven Touch, or there'd be no Touch Black Turbo, or there'd be none of this? Probably from a playing perspective, Peter Mac's probably top of the list. Yeah. But he also couldn't do it without his right-hand man, Jamie Lelfiesaw. So they're probably, yeah, two that definitely helped shape my playing career, as well as Peter Bentley as well, because he coached me for school, School Touch, and he coached me for our under-19s New Zealand team as well. Talk to me about PB. I feel like he gets a tough rap, PB. Yeah, he does a little bit. Unorthodox, or that's what I've heard a couple of times? Yeah, unorthodox is one way to think of it, bro. I would argue that a lot of his methods, or the way that he thinks about the game, is probably ahead of its time a little bit. Yeah, I've heard that too. Like, for example, I think he would have been one of the first coaches in New Zealand that started running with three wingers as opposed to four, so that you could fish out the middle a little bit more. I remember in our 2011 campaign, because in New Zealand there was always, you know, corner and shut, corner and shut, and in our first two games of that Youth Trans-Tasman series, the Aussie team were just bombing long ball after long ball because we were cornering and shutting. Then it came to the decider, and he pulled me and Shaq Stone aside. We were the sort of co-captains of the team, and he said, I don't want us to corner and shut in this game, I want us to try and man everything. And at the time, me and Shaq kind of looked at each other like, what are you on about? That opens us up. But he was right, you know, us staying man and being able to double off meant that they weren't throwing long ball after long ball, or if they did, then we were deeing it out. So yeah, BB's a bit of an enigma, but he definitely has a good touch brain on him, and he's definitely influenced some of my playing days. Who are some people that you would have loved to have spent a bit more time with, or managed to form a relationship with, that you sort of see evolved in the game, or do you think you've been everywhere you need to be? Probably Rahul. I think he was a bit later than you, eh? Yeah, so he came on 2016, and my last test was 2013. He came on 2016 as an assistant, and he took over 2017. But just the way he thinks about the game, I did get a chance to play with him in 2019 at Nationals for Auckland, but I would have liked to have been in better shape, or been at least fit enough to be able to play the role that he expected from me. So I think if I was fit, he was at the helm, I reckon we would have been a pretty dope team. Say Rahul wins the World Cup in a couple of months, and he says, you know what? I'm going to do trans-Tasman, and then I'm done. Who's replacing Rahul, according to you? I mean, the natural progression would be Paora. Paora's been Scotty Pippen for a while, eh? A little bit, yeah, yeah. For a minute? Yep. So I remember he was, he made his, or was supposed to make his assistant coaching debut for Scotland at the 2011 World Cup, but then obviously there were earthquakes and that, so he didn't end up going. But he's been, so what's that, 13 years? So his time's probably due. That would be the natural progression, but there's not a heck of a lot of coaches that are sort of banging the door down, you know? Yeah, yeah. No obvious ones, eh? Nah, well, you've had dudes like Cav and Mitz, but they were coaching the youth teams for a little bit. Yeah. But, you know, Cav's, I don't know whether he's still playing or not. Mitz is obviously still running around, so a bit early for them to take over the role, but I suppose there's no one really banging down the door, so the natural selection would probably be Paora. Talk to me about your expectations for New Zealand coming into this World Cup based on what you saw in Brisbane. The men have a red-hot chance. Like, the way that they played in Game 2, especially towards back into Game 2 and Game 3 in Brisbane, where they just got the roll on and got on the front foot, they looked pretty sharp and pretty tough to defend. Do you anticipate any changes other than the obvious? I mean, obviously Danny's not going to be there, but do you see... Who do you see come back? Sean Law, you know, these types of things? Yeah, Sean is in good form at the moment. He had an awesome Māori day. He was MVP. MVP. Lossy's still got to come back. There's dudes sort of in and around, like fringe, dudes like Tian, McIntyre, Te Tui Tūtā. I saw a photo of Ben Anderson at camp. Yeah, yeah, Ben Anderson. You know, there's plenty. I reckon they had a squad. I think they had a squad of about 30. Yeah, half of them were wingers. Half of them were raised as coaches. But, you know, that only creates competition. So, you know, driving internal competition only lifts the standards. So Rahul's got a tough job on his hands to select only 16. Yeah. So that's probably one of the main reasons why I have high expectations for the men's. The mix, if they keep tracking the way that they do, they'll come close. You know, they lost by one in two of the games at Trans-Sassy. But it would probably come down to their D, because they can score tries in bunches, especially with dudes like, you know, Jordan Suokana-Hudson, Shiloh Flavell. But it'll be tough to defend, especially if Australia keep on selecting dudes like James Higgins. He had an amazing tournament. Tim Bartels is a good leader. Dan Langbridge. So, like, they've got some guns. That's going to be an awesome tussle. The women's are probably on the back foot a little bit. And that's just due to... Due to squad. Yeah, due to inexperience. But the only way to get experience is to get experience, right? So... Silver medal? I think, at the very least, that should be the expectation. They've got some guns to come back to, though. Like, Jess Marr is probably close to being back to fully full. By the time World Cup rolls around, and some of those young girls had an awesome Trans-Sassy. Skylar's a good one. Skylar Tainui-Takere. So, yeah, they've got good pieces. It's just a matter of putting it all together. Yeah, right. And just quickly, I want to talk about your Samoan. Yes. What's the go there? Do you have any inklings to get involved with Samoan touch, or be involved in that? I'd love to. Yeah. At this point, I'm open to working with anyone, but Samoa probably has a special place in my heart. I was lucky enough to go over in 2018 for their NET, their NET Nationals. Oh, right. And that was cool. You know, it was me... Man, that feels like forever ago. 2018. Six years now. Yeah. There was, like, Alex... Is that the last time you went there? First and only time I've been to Samoa. Really? Yeah, yeah. Beautiful, bro. I think I'm one trip off in my tie. Put it out there. Yeah, I'd love to go over. Yeah, but just personal circumstance, it all just has to fit. Time has to be right. But, yeah, I'd definitely love to go over, whether that's in a coaching capacity, mentoring capacity. It'll be cool. It'll be dope. 2028 World Cup in New Zealand. Is this the year that we see full Pacifica contingents? Because they'll finally be able to afford it. Yes. You know, it has to be. I'd love to see that. The last sort of time that that happened was 99. Yeah. Yeah, they had, you know, UAE, Samoa, Cook Islands, Tonga. It'll be really cool to see that again. And, you know, judging from Pacific Cup, a lot of the nations there are sort of hungry for more. You can tell by the way that they're reaching out to, you know, dudes like Jeff, Jeff Nati for Cook Islands. He's obviously based over there, so he's got a big say in things. Mr. Thor. In Cook Islands touch. Jason Salimaka for New Air. Kiribati, he invited Peter Walters over. Of course he did. So there's that thirst. And 2028, yeah, obviously barring funds, there's no reason that they shouldn't be there competing. You know the really sad reality is? Between 2024 and 2028, there'll be no international touch for Pacific nations unless they create it themselves. Because there's no Pacific games, or Tahiti, but there's no touch there. So normally there's a, you know, like a halfway point or whatever. There isn't one this time around. So the international footy that they've just had at the Souls, and then this, if they make the trip to the UK, that'll be it for four years. Yeah. So how do we develop in lieu of international footy? Yeah, that's a tough one because that all comes from... How do they get better when they just play themselves? Yeah, exactly. It's a little bit difficult. I'd love to see, in addition to a trans-Sasman, an Asia-Pacific touch cup like what they did with the youth. With the kids, yeah. That'll be dope on an international stage because you could still have your trans-Sasman. 100% you could. If you're playing three games, bang, bang, bang, you could have that either at the start or at the end of a tournament like that, and that just gives Pacific Nations something to aspire to. I hope that we see something. I remember 2019 they talked about doing like a Pacific tournament. It's not on the website anymore, but it was there for a while, like a tier two or whatever event, and then COVID obviously happened, and I guess that just... Fell by the wayside, eh? It just disappeared. Strangely, we've been able to launch all these other different exciting cups, Asia Cup, Interpolitical, whatever all these other things are, but we've just forgotten that Pacific Nations exist. So hopefully our friends at FIT will heed this opportunity to do something, otherwise we've got a long time before drinks. Yeah, I'd love to see those Pacific Nations get that opportunity because you look at teams like, especially Papua New Guinea, over the last 10 years, like 2015 they won bronze, 2019 I think they were fourth and sixth for their men's and women's. I think their mix might have been like eighth as well. 2019 Pacific Games, they won all three. They cleaned it up. Clean sweep. I was there. It was awesome. And then 2023 they were outdone by Samoa, so that shows the growth in Samoa as well. Man, our Pacific Nations, they have all the potential in the world and then you look at Fiji that are getting special preferential treatment by Tony Tran. Yeah, yeah. He's trying to find a village there. It's a door top, not far off. But there's massive potential in the Pacific Nations. They just need an opportunity. Yeah, and I think, I hope that we will start seeing some of that stuff because I think it's super important. We talked about your goals. Is there anything in the pipeline that you can tell us about? I'd really love to start a podcast. Yeah. Do it, man. You can take all the stuff. I can borrow it? Yeah, 100%. No, no, you just come and grab it. We'll do two weeks at a time. It's all yours, bro. Honestly, anything I can do to help, man, I think that'll be dope. Seven Tuts Live. Yeah, I would love to run a podcast. I'd love to flesh out the merch and the training programs a little bit more. I'd be open to some coaching opportunities. And this is all just within Seven Tuts. The commentary, I'd love to have a few more opportunities just because it's all, you know, whatever I can do to help grow the game in Tuts. That's the end goal. That's the ultimate goal. That's always been the ultimate goal. Just remember, folks, if you're nodding your head going, yeah, we're going to message Seven Tuts, just remember the bro's got kids to feed, okay? So don't be just hitting them up with a handout, okay? Make sure that there's a checkbook in the hand. Honestly, I think that this is the year. The glow up also needs to be the grow up. Grow all the money, okay? I appreciate what you do, bro. I really do, and I'll say it a million times over, and I love your story because I think there's a lot of resilience in there. We obviously didn't touch on a lot of stuff today, but I think maybe we'll leave some of that for the Seven Tuts podcast. Maybe. Because I think there's a lot that we can take from some of the stuff that you've been able to achieve organically without having to play politics or get involved in any of that stuff, and I think that's really cool. So all the best for the future, bro. I look forward to seeing what happens with, not just with Seven Tuts, but with you in general. Looking forward to any event I'm at, bro. There's a microphone there for you. And unlike other people, I pay. So sort of put that out there. But all the best, bro, and my love to your family, and thank you for your time. Thank you, bro. I appreciate it. And also, just want to say, before we sign off, on the flip side, thank you to you as well. I'm lucky that you do, and it's awesome to see Tuts Project podcast back in action. It's only back till you start yours that I'm going to retire again. I kind of hope so. Remember? I appreciate you, bro. I appreciate you too, bro.