12-6-2015 Bioethics Part 35

Casey Lawrence shares his personal testimony of struggling with same-sex attraction. He talks about the stigma against homosexuality in his small Louisiana town and the feeling of being different and not fitting in. Casey also discusses his complicated relationship with his father and the emotional absence he felt. He reveals that at the age of 13, he was suicidal and begged God to change him. Although he felt a temporary relief, he admits that his prayer was selfish and driven by a desire to escape pain rather than a true surrender to God. Casey shares that his life continued in sin and darkness, with no one to confide in or share the truth with him. He entered into a sinful relationship and experienced devastation when it ended. Good morning, everyone. This is Casey Lawrence. He's going to be talking with us this morning. So let's start out with a word of prayer. Lord, we thank You for today. Thank You for the chance to come together to study Your Word and see how it impacts our lives. Thank You for Casey and his willingness to come and share his experiences and his love and faith in You. We ask that You would give him strength and that his word would be truth. We thank You for today in Your name, amen. Amen. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you guys this morning. It is a very humbling experience. I haven't shared my testimony, I guess, in a long, long time. Interpersonally, a lot. But as far as standing up here and actually sharing this, it's been a while. Probably Louisiana. So anyway, it's humbling, but it is really, really an honor, especially to sit in the presence of my wife and my son and to tell how God has saved me from myself. It's a very humbling thing. But Siri wants to talk to me. But it's definitely an honor. So I thought we'd start this morning just talking a little bit about my background. I know you guys have been doing the bioethics, and homosexuality has been part of it. And so that is a lot, obviously, of what my background is all about. So just to look a little bit about that, one of the, I could stand up here and say, you know what? I was born that way. And maybe that would be surprising, or maybe it would not be surprising. I don't know, depending on how Jeremy's addressed that issue. But Psalm 51 actually says, behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. And so that was the ground that I was born in. Basically, sin and iniquity. And so that's common to man. It's common to all of us. So that's the ground that we were all born in, basically. One thing I thought that was kind of interesting, you know the largest flower in the world? Y'all know what the largest flower in the world is? It's actually, it's got a really weird and awkward name. But it's called, the more common name is the corpse flower. It's huge, absolutely huge. Part of it can grow to over 10 feet, 10 feet high. It's called the corpse flower because it doesn't smell like a flower. It doesn't smell nice. It actually smells like rotting meat. It smells like a dead animal. And part of the theory behind that is that it attracts flies to help pollinate it, right? So if sin and iniquity was the ground that I was born in, the only difference between us is what flower grows in that putrid, nasty ground. And so let's talk a little bit about what my ground actually looked like. Because I know that, I don't know if you guys know, and these days it's very common that somebody is going to know someone that struggles with same-sex attraction. It's not something that is, and it's not even something that's outside the walls of the church. I mean, it's inside. It's around us. Whether we know it or not, it typically is. So anyway, just a little bit about my ground, what my background was. I was born in 74. And in the mid-70s and the early 80s, especially in the South, I was born in Louisiana in a small town. There was obviously quite a bit of a stigma against same-sex attraction or homosexuality at the time. But I was born, my dad was actually 17 years old. My mom was 15 when she had me. And I was the reason that they got married. I guess back then, still in the South, in a small town, that happened. You did get married. Certainly not something that happens these days. But you know, they're still married. So it's quite, and love each other now, much more than they ever did when they were 15 and 17. So anyway, my dad was 17 years old when I was born. And he was certainly not ready to be a dad at 17. Imagine that. And he traveled off quite a bit. So my first memories are of all women, all women. I was surrounded by my mom, by my aunt, by my grandmother. My dad actually, or my mom, tells me a story that any time I would see somebody with facial hair, I would start crying. Because I was so not used to seeing it. Apparently, it was terrifying. So this is some of the background, what I was brought up feeling and knowing and looking, even at the very, very young age. And issues like sexuality, I know that Jeremy has talked about it. It's not just this one-shot thing. It is something that's pretty complicated, pretty complex. And to be able to look at one thing and say, hey, this is why you are heterosexual. And hey, this is why you are homosexual, or whatever, is probably not doing it much justice. But I think that one thing that is probably pretty common, and having talked to a lot of people that have same-sex attraction, that one of the things is a feeling of being different, a feeling of being not normal. Although the idea of normality in our culture is really getting that more and more messed up. But just that feeling like there's something different about you. It was in the back of my mind from the time the earliest time that I can possibly remember. So when somebody that struggles with this comes to you and says, hey, all I ever remember is being gay, that's what they mean. Not that someone that's two or three years old has the idea that any idea of what sexuality or sex really is, right? But just that idea of feeling different, a feeling like you don't fit in in some way is usually a common factor. I felt this way, like I said, as long as I can possibly remember. My dad didn't know how to really deal with me. It's another issue that very often is common, is the issues with a dad. You know, the dad is either he's absent, gone completely. Overbearing mothers are usually fairly common, too, especially with men that have same-sex attraction issues. They are maybe abusive, or they're there, but not emotionally there. They really feel like they can't relate in whatever way. And that's pretty much what my situation was. My dad was there. I mean, he was a very, I mean, he was a good man in that sort of, you know, when you think about providing for your family, being there for your family. But as far as being there emotionally, he wasn't there for me. When my brothers came along, I have two younger brothers, he was ready to be a daddy. And they, you know, really latched onto him. He latched onto them. But he never knew what to do with me. And so I think that has been part of the thing, that the flower grew in the way that it did with me, and took on the stench that it did with me. Just this idea of not being able to connect with another man, in a way, especially with my father. So anyway, so that's some of the things that I've had to deal with. As I got older, that feeling just sort of intensified. I would compare myself to others, and feel like there was just something that wasn't really right about me. Even though I was kind of a little, sort of a popular-ish sort of kid, always still that idea that I was different. By the time I got a little bit older, and adolescence kicks in, those issues became more and more pronounced. At the age of 13, I was suicidal. You know, at one point, I would have others call me gay, or whatever, and it really, really affected me. I mean, really affected me, devastated me. To the point, like I said, I was around 13, and I was suicidal. I would beg God, beg God, please don't make me this way, please change me. Backing up just a little bit, my family, as far as a Christian background, nominally Christian. Again, it was a cultural Christianity that you find in the South quite a bit, where there was really no reality of Christ in the home. But there was, at least we did go to church, a Methodist church. I didn't know who Jesus was. I didn't know he died for our sins, whatever that meant. And I needed to ask him into my heart, which I did when I was seven, right? So, yeah, that's kind of made me feel like, yeah, I was a Christian. But anyway, but there was no reality, absolutely no reality. And so at 13, I'm begging God to change me. Please, I don't want to be this way. I absolutely don't want to be this way. Please, please change me, please change me. And after having gone through, looking back at that situation, and to be honest, the next day, he helped, he helped. Despite what I know now was an absolutely selfish prayer, because really what I was asking was I don't want to be different. Not that I did not want, that I wanted to somehow be submitted to my creator and my God to whom I owe everything and fall at the feet of this love that would radically change me and make me into something completely new and unite me. I know nothing about that. All I wanted was I didn't want to suffer. I didn't want to be a freak. I didn't want to be what my family said was the worst thing that you could possibly be in a small town in Louisiana. And so it was really, I wanted to escape from the pain. And you know what? He answered somehow and helped me not to want to kill myself at that point. I felt like there was some hope. I didn't know what that hope was or what it looked like, but I felt like there was some hope out there somewhere. And so anyway, so my life went on. I promptly ignored him. Went to several revivals at some point. But really the reality of who Christ was, of who I was, of dealing with that sort of sin, it was always in the dark. That is one of the most powerful things about this and really any sin is it's based on lies and kept in the dark. And so I was, there was no one that I could talk to, no one that I could confide in, no one that could share any sort of truth with me about this because I knew that if I did, they would reject me or at least that's what I thought. And I was probably at that point would have been right. So anyway, so at some point in my adolescent life, I started dating and things began to sort of get normal. I was in a sinful relationship with a young lady at one point, we were engaged to be married. When that broke off, it was absolutely devastating. And in the midst of all that, I went to, I ended up going to London, ended up having the first encounter there in London and that was absolutely enslaved at that point. James actually says, when it talks about sin, says, let no one say when he's tempted, I'm being tempted by God, certainly was not, for he can't be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it is conceived, it gives birth to sin when it is fully grown, brings forth death. This is true of everybody, Christian, non-Christian, we sin, we experience a type of death, a type of ripping of our soul apart. And at that point, when I began to do those things, I experienced a type of slavery and death that I had not experienced up until that point. At that point, there was almost no turning back for me. I thought maybe I could pretend and just live a lie and live this sort of dual life. But eventually, my lies caught up to me. I was in college at this time. Eventually, my lies caught up with me and I had to tell my parents or I told my mom in a fit of desperation when she was saying, I wish you would learn from my experiences. Why can't you just learn from that? And I understand what you're going through. And I was like, mom, you have no idea what I'm going through. She's like, why don't you tell me? Why don't you just tell me? So finally, I yell it out. And she's like, okay, good, good. That means you want some help. I go, yeah, that's what I want. I want some help. Fix me, mama, fix me. So anyway, that's what she went about doing, trying to fix me, which just so you know, if that is your mentality, if that's what you think that people that suffer from same-sex attraction need is fixing, it's not. They don't need fixing. Their homosexuality and that, again, it's the flower. It's not the root of what they're dealing with. It's not even really the main issue, but our culture has made it the main issue. It has elevated that sin to this sort of all-encompassing thing that is absolutely one of the worst things that you possibly can do or be. And is it destructive? Yes. And is it bad? Yes. But is it, in the end, different from any other sin in that it all separates us, results in death, and separates us from our creator? Absolutely. It's exactly the same. And so anyway, so I was brought to a woman who prayed with me, and she was like, you know what, I don't really think it's gonna be a bad thing, because he didn't really even look gay. I'm like, great, great, thanks, thanks. So we prayed, and then that was it. That was it. And so it was like, okay, all right, so we're gonna come home, and I'm just gonna start lying better than I've ever lied in my life. And that's pretty much what I started doing, just lying even more. Nothing had changed, even though I said, yeah, sure, I wanna change. At that point, I had no interest in changing. I had gotten involved in a community, too, in Baton Rouge. One of the most powerful things, number one, I'm floating around without an identity, right? Don't know who I am. This finally gave me an identity. It told me who I was. When my dad confronted me, and that happened a little while later, my dad confronted me. He said, I thought we were driving out, and my mom was crying, and my dad was like, Casey, I need to talk to you, let's go. So we got in the truck, and we're driving. He's not going out into the woods. He's not saying anything. I'm like, Daddy, are you gonna take me out in the woods and kill me and bury me? And he didn't say anything. I was like, okay. So anyway, so we get out there, sit on the swing. He said, you know, your mom told me. And so I'm like, you know, do you want to change? Do you want this to be different? Do you want, all right, here we go again. Yeah, Daddy, I want to change. I want it to be different. Well then, no more going to Baton Rouge. No more going out. You go to church, you go to work, you go to school, you come home, that's it. Like, okay, so getting to prison. All right, awesome. So I was like, okay. And he said, I don't want to hear about any of that. You know, I don't want to hear about what you do or what you've done. And I said, Daddy, it's not about what I've done. It's about who I am. And he said, don't ever say that again. That is not who you are. I don't want to ever hear you say that again. I was like, okay, Daddy. But that's what I felt. It gave me an identity. And at that point, I wasn't gonna let it go. And just telling me that's not who you are was not helpful to me. Also, what Baton Rouge and the people that I had met there had given me was community. It gave me a group of people that accepted me for who I then thought I was. So I've been given an identity and I've been given a community. That is powerful. That is so powerful. Think about Christianity. Those are all, those are shadows and copies of what the church is, of what, who we are in Christ. When I was saved, I was given a new identity and I was put into a new community. But it's a real community based on reality, based on this communion with God. So it is, what the homosexual community offers is that. It offers you an identity and it offers you community. It offers you acceptance. It offers you a place where you can belong. That is why it is hard to leave. It's hard to break out. People in the community feel judgment. They feel like people point at them and say, be something else. What, how? How am I supposed to be something else? This is all I know. And once you be someone else, then get out of the community that you've been a part of now for quite a while. How? I'll have nothing, absolutely nothing. So what did this end up looking like? I had my life at that point, I ended up moving out that day that my dad confronted me. I dropped out of school. I wrote everyone notes and I moved out. At that point, I was still living with my parents, which was a horrible thing. My parents thought I had killed myself because they saw notes that were on beds for everybody and they were like, oh my gosh, he's killed himself. But you know, I hadn't, I just moved in with the person that I was seeing at the time. And anyway, it was the beginning of me, of living that life to whatever extent I could. Always in the background was God. This amazing creator God was always in the background. Romans says that the wrath of God revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them for God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world and the things that have been made, so they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they didn't honor him as God, although they knew God, they didn't honor him as God or give him thanks. That was me. I knew he was there. In fact, I had special revelation, right? I knew about Christ. I knew about at least why he had come. He came, died on a cross so that we could be saved from our sins. Still didn't know exactly what that meant, but I knew he was there like this omnipotent force that I would, as much as I tried to suppress him, he would still be there in the background and sometimes when I would get really quiet at night, he would be there hammering, hammering and I got into drugs at some point, I got into drinking, nothing to too much of an excess, but just to try to suppress that and I began my quest for love, right? Because God can't look down on love. Granted, it's a love that I define, I mean, so I'm not gonna say that God can tell me what love really is, but I start going, it became more less and less about just the physical aspects and more and more about finding true love, which I eventually thought that I did. One of the amazing things about that particular journey is that that is where I met my future wife. I met Marcelle, we were actually working at the same mall, both absolute and abject sin, me on one side, her on the other, we crashed into each other, eventually became really, really good friends and we would go out together, we would sin together, we would party together. I mean, she saw my life up close and personal. She would actually approve or disapprove of whoever I was seeing at the time and if she disapproved, that was it, I could just write them off. But anyway, so there was that relationship, my future wife actually came from that mess, that absolute mess. So eventually, the God that was behind everything all the time, I had all of these questions, right? Why didn't you save me when I was 13 years old, begging you to change me? Why didn't you do that? Can you really do it completely? Can you make me whole or are you just going to make me some priest? I had all of these demands of why you didn't do it, and I didn't, but they weren't really honest questions. They were really just me, a way to suppress the truth, a way for me to not look at him, a way for me to say, you know what? I, until you answer these, I'm not even going to consider you. Thing is, he answered them. Over and over, he answered all of the questions that I had, even though they were not honest questions. Can you do it all? Can you really save me or are you just going to make me some priest? Well, he answered that through a man named Dennis Dernigan, who, after he was saved from same-sex attraction, homosexual lifestyle, he has nine kids and a ministry to people that struggle in that same way. So he's like, don't say I can't do it. I can do it. And also then, why did you not save me when I was 13 years old? Why, when I was begging you and crying and suicidal? And this was the, you know, the craziest way. I mean, he showed me the way that he answered this. He's like, because you didn't give it to me. You were holding it up and demanding that I rip it from your hands, but you didn't even know what you were asking. And I wasn't going to rip something away from you just so I could change you so you would basically walk off. I can make you straight and you could ignore me the rest of your life. I wasn't going to do that. So he was answering all these questions. And eventually, I'm desperate at this point for acceptance because as much as I tried to suppress the truth, it kept being pushed in. The God of the universe pursued me in my sin. In my sin, while I was his enemy, Christ had died for me and he continued to pursue me even though I ran as hard as I possibly could. I became desperate for acceptance. I eventually told my brother, you know, and he said that he had actually known from before from something else that had happened. But he completely embraced me. It was the easy brother, though, because he was into drugs and all kinds of stuff. So I figured if there was anybody that had no stones to throw, it would be my brother Chance. And sure enough, at the time, you know, the guy that I was seeing that I thought that I was going to live the rest of my life with because of his fireworks and everything, he's the love I'd always look for, right? Anyway, he hugs him. He's like, I never thought I'd have a brother-in-law. What? That was like the best thing ever. And I rode that high for a whole two days. After that, I was flat again, needed something else. Desperately, I'm like, OK, here we go. All right, I'm going to go for the gold. I'm going for my parents because my parents, it's kind of, they put their head in the sand in lots of ways, you know, just hoping that things would get better. My mom praying, my dad avoiding, that sort of thing. So anyway, I bring him home and he's sitting on the couch. And my mom had gotten up that morning and she said, you know, hey, Chad, I told him good morning. And Casey, can I talk to you? We went outside and, you know, well, I just believe God, Casey, but you're daddy. And that was it. I busted out crying. He's like, why, why? I'm just, why can't he accept me? I just need him. Why can't he just accept me? We went out and said, come on. We went out to a swing underneath an oak tree. And underneath that oak tree, I began to cry and to begin to just say everything that God had shown me. In that moment, God did something that I had never experienced before. He had given me true repentance. At one point in that prayer, this is how messy it looked. This is how crazy and messy it, you know, I mean, I was just crying at one point. I was like, I hate my life. I hate my life. And I meant it with everything in me. I could have never said that apart from a God who enabled me to actually even repent. And then I said, God, I don't want it anymore. Please take it away. Okay, that was my prayer of salvation. God, I don't want it anymore. Please take it away. But what I meant was everything that I am, everything that I have, everything that I think that I wanted, I don't want it anymore. I don't want it anymore. Take it away. And what I experienced in that moment can only be described as a life from the dead. I experienced one of those radical conversions that was so overwhelming that, I mean, I've described it as, you know, I felt like I was spinning in space and I could feel the ground beneath my feet. I felt that I've been walking in a fog my entire life and somebody had finally blown it away. And I experienced a love that made my love for Chad look like nothing, absolutely nothing. And it radically changed my life. And my life was never the same. I can't get into everything that actually happened that day because he was still asleep on the couch, right? So it was really, really messy after that, but God absolutely sovereignly took me out of that community. That was something that, like I said, that it is a very, very difficult thing to do. Because I was so embedded into it. It was my world, it was my world. My best friend was there, my whole life was there, my work was there, everything revolved around that. My identity was there and now I'd been given a new identity. I'd been given a new life and I was told, I mean, I could hear the spirit actually speaking, which was crazy, obviously not oddly, I'm not that kooky, but I mean, it was just like this knowing of, I mean, it's like, God, what do I do? What do I do? And I was just as clear as, you come home, you come home. Okay, I'll come home. And so pick up everything and leave, actually leaving my future wife to pick up all of the pieces of my life that I had left behind. So anyway, and I would love to say that everything was beautiful and rosy after that. It wasn't, it was a train wreck. I mean, my life for years was a train wreck of going up and down, up and down. You know, did those feelings go away? Well, initially it was like, I was like the Israelites and the Egyptians and whoa, and partying the Red Sea and all the signs. And I mean, I was carried out of Egypt, carried. I could have never gotten out on my own. But then once I did, it's like, okay, now let's walk in the desert for a long time. And that's pretty much what my life was. It was that pilgrim life. It was learning to walk. It was learning to trust in Christ, in Him, and to believe that He did not only give me a new identity, but He continued to sustain me and continue to change me into His image. So what do we do as a church? What do you guys do? What's your response? Because like I said, you know somebody, I guarantee you. If you don't know that you know somebody, you know somebody that either struggles with this or is deeply involved in this, or it could be a coworker, it could be whatever, but it could be someone in the church. So what do we do? There were years that when we lived here in the church, what are some things that actually helped me? One is the gospel, the gospel. Gospel is for Christians. It's for Christians. It is our daily bread. It is what we live on. And my identity, it's never a one-time thing. I can't look back to August 9th, 1999. Even though it's good to look back, and I love looking back even now, it's not what sustains me today. And so the gospel is absolutely vital, necessary, 100% for all of us. That's how we change every day, feeding on the word, feeding on Christ, beholding him and the gospel in his word and being transformed day by day into that image. That's the lot of all of us. But what are some things that would have helped me in this struggle? Because there were lots of things that happened in the middle of everything. Tons of failure that happened in my marriage. I was married about two years after that, and we had children very quickly. What? We needed crazy counseling. Oh my goodness. We both came from such broken backgrounds, crazy broken. And that death that sin causes, we walked out on a daily basis. You know, a lot of people think, you know, hey, I want to have some fiery, awesome testimony. No, you don't. It's like, you know, can God heal you from a train wreck? But you're going to be limping the rest of your life. Do you really want to limp the rest of your life? I mean, we carry the scars of our sin healed, yes, but weaknesses that we will carry with us for the rest of our lives. But just as Paul said, we exult in our weakness because in our weakness we're made strong. He uses our weakness in order to bring us to him. But what can the church do? Well, one is not be afraid. Don't be afraid of it. It's not something scary. It seems like an insurmountable, an unscalable mountain that you'd have to climb. First, no, your job is not to fix anybody. It's not. It's your job is to listen and to be real, to be open, to be transparent yourself, to be honest, to present the gospel, not in a way that makes them feel like they're the only ones that, you know, the problem is the fact that they have same-sex attraction. That's not their problem. Do you want to know what's it when you think of the, when you think of like in the Bible, judgment against homosexuality, where do you think? Sodom and Gomorrah, yeah. You know what Ezekiel says about Sodom and Gomorrah? Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom. I was talking about Jerusalem, so it's not really a great thing, Jerusalem, but your sister Sodom, this was her guilt. She, it was homosexuality, right? And trying to, something with an angel and what? No, she and her daughters had pride, excess of food and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. What? Have y'all read that before? Oh my goodness, what? So Ezekiel says that? It wasn't homosexuality, it was that? The root of it was pride? It is, it is. Pride, selfishness, unbelief, the root of all of our sins, it's right there. So it's not their problem, it's not to be fixed. Their problem is the same as all of us, the unwillingness to fear our Creator, to come under His authority and say, I am not my own. Everything I have, my beginning I owe to You, every breath I owe to You, my end I owe to You, and I don't define anything You do. And to come fearfully under that God and say, You tell me what I do, You tell me who I am, You tell me how I approach You. That is every human's problem. We refuse to let God be God and we are gonna be the ones that says who we are, how we approach Him, and what our life is going to look like and it's gonna be autonomous for Him, from Him, or it's gonna have Him in a bottle as a genie to do what we want Him to do. We'll fashion Him in our image, but we will not let Him be God. That's what it means to fear Him, to come under that, I am not God, You are. That's their problem, that's their problem. So the part of the issue is side skirt it. It's like, okay, oh yeah, okay, so that's what your flower looks like? All right, well, my flower looks like this, but that's not really the issue. Your issue, it's God. Do you not feel Him? Do you not know Him? You know Him. Scripture says you know Him. You know He's there. And our issue is we will not submit to Him, even this God who shows Himself, not like Allah, but a God of love, who in the person of the Son became a man and died so that you would not have to. Insanity, we wouldn't submit to this God, but that's who we all are. So, and then the second thing is community. Show them a community that is more bright and more beautiful than anything that they can see in the world and anything that they can see in the homosexual community. If our community doesn't look at least as good, at least as good, they're not going to be attracted to it at all. Why talk to you if all they see is some fractured country club? So be a body, be a body, not a country club, not something that rallies around something like sin, but that rallies around something that's even greater, a vision that's even greater, a God that's greater, a future that's greater, a community that's greater, brighter and more beautiful. Show them the beautiful bride of Christ and they'll at least ask questions when they see that you're not judging and you have something better than they could have ever imagined. Is there anything else that you could do? If we did that, and then Christ, proclaim Christ, not just with your mouth, obviously with your mouth, but with everything that you are, of every part of who you are, of your emotions, of your words, of your life, of your service, of, you know, show a love that doesn't expect anything from them. Show them that, show them the reality of the cross in your life and your words and draw them. Let God do what God does to sinners. He draws them as He is lifted up, He draws men to Him. Okay, I'll stop there. Any questions? Jeremy wanted me to leave some time at the end for questions. And there's like a whole six minutes. I'll stop at 45, right? Ish. Okay. Did you have people in your life at that point who were Christians, who were approaching you other than, I mean, you kind of mentioned your family, but that was a very judgmental cutout. Did you have people that you felt like were pursuing you properly? Or was it mostly just, you know, God pursuing you from your youth, being planted in you, constantly calling you? Good question. Short answer, well, my mom, because after they initially, it was the crazy rejection, and I didn't really, I didn't give them enough credit. They called me after that eventually and said, we did that wrong. We just love you. And we want to, we accept you. You always know that you have a home here. That was very, very powerful. And my mom, even though my mom was not a believer at the time, she thought she was, but she wasn't. But she did, she was giving me books constantly, which I never read. I mean, they would get faded on my, on the top part of, what's that called? The dashboard? Yeah, the dashboard of my truck. I mean, seriously, literally faded because I never read them. But there occasionally, God sovereignly worked to where I would listen to some of the things. And I heard an amazing thing on the Prodigal Son at one point that was pivotal in him drawing me to himself, or beginning to, or at least shattering all of my preconceived notions. So there was some, but there, but it was primarily my mom. And it was kind of anecdotal. There was, so the other answer, no. There was no one actively in my life that was a true Christian that ever engaged me in that way. Which what could have happened if there was? What? Oh man, if he just did that almost on his own, with the using of scripture every now and then, that's random, man, what could he have done with the power of a redeemed life in my life? Yeah, so I won't know that, but. Yes? In your gay community that you were at, were you guys mainly only able to relate to your identity, or were you able to relate in other ways, like was there a deeper connection there? I mean, it's like, that is what everything revolved around. That's what everybody had in common, right? After that, so it's, again, a parody, a gross of the Christian community. I mean, we've got the one thing in common. In the end, it's Christ, one God, one baptism. That's the one thing we have in common, but then we're Jews, and we're Gentiles, and we dress different, we look different, we have some different customs, we have different, you know, so there's, so yeah, there was a lot of things that were different. We'd go out, we'd have fun, we'd, but that was what everything revolved around. If you weren't at least accepting of that, you were not in part of that community, and I had some, especially women, that were accepting of the lifestyle, but that weren't, you know, didn't, you know, they weren't gay themselves, and they were part of the community, too, but that's what it all revolved around. Yeah. When you was talking about, like, how we approach, you know, the same-sex practice, and then, once they're Christians and stuff, they will be, you know, properly having treatment, to think, go back, almost like looking back to previous, or whatever, but then, along the way, how do you, you know, like, let's say, quote-unquote, fail, fall back, or whatever, anything like that, hypothetically, how do you, you know, go about speaking to, you know, like that? The same way that you'd speak to anybody that falls in any sin. I mean, again, it's, I mean, there may be some, depending on what type of fall you're talking about, if you're talking about them going into the, you know, actually with another person, and, you know, I mean, that's gonna have to be, obviously, a lot more serious. It's any type, like, especially marriage, it's like an adult, it's adultery, right? So, if there's adultery, porn, okay, when you've got other people involved, that's obviously much more serious, if it, and it has to be dealt with appropriately, because it does, it doesn't just affect you, it affects everybody, and that's the thing, as a body, it all affects us. So, part of it is just the attitude that your fall is not somehow separate from me. Your fall is my fall. Your fall is not, it's not something I'm looking back at, thinking, well, how am I going to diagnose and fix this now? It's, oh my God, brother, you've fallen. Do you know, number one, what's the depth of this? Do you realize what you've done? Do you know? Do you truly know? This is, you have spit in the face of your savior who loves you infinitely and died for you. It's to open up their wound, because if it's, because you need to see, is it something where it's like, yeah, I did this, and my, that's with any sin, right? I mean, it's with any sin. Are they being flimping about it? Is there no true repentance? Well, dig deep. Do you know what you've done? Do you know what you've done? Open up the wound after that bomb of Gilead, the gospel, the gospel is how, that's the only way that any of us actually grow and mature. It's the only way any of us are gonna be restored, but always with a sense of fear, always with a sense of this is not just you, this is me too, and I have got to watch myself lest I fall too. Not necessarily in the same way, but you, in your approaching someone like that could be full of pride. You could be full of arrogance. You could be full of hypocrisy yourself. You could be full of a lack of compassion, a lack of love. So in your rebuke, watch yourself because we always have to see this as it's a part of the body. This is a part of the body that has now been wounded and it needs to be set right so that what is out of place doesn't become, forget, I don't want to badly state that, that's out of place doesn't become, I don't know, broken or something like that, and it doesn't become worse basically. Second, my point is to think that you got fixed on life doesn't it also mean somebody with that mindset says basically you're not that person because I need to fix who you are. And it's almost like saying you're not really this thing that you are. We need to address it because I don't think Jim just said, you know, look, let me pretend that this isn't actually happening. And this is not because of who you are. I would say that I'm gonna, you know, like your father was saying, I don't wanna hear about this, I don't wanna do this, this, that, that's gonna fix you rather than that's the issue that you are these things or whatever, you've done these things. I mean, I'm making a mistake. If you go about it that way, you're not really speaking reality to the person. Right, because if you're talking about someone that's apart from Christ, that is who they are. I mean, it's who they are. So to try to say that's not who you are is not reality. I mean, it is who they are. I mean, they are in their sin and their sin happens to look like this, but who they are is a sinner under the wrath of God apart from Christ with no hope in the world, none except judgment. So yeah, that is who you are. So to deal with it on that and not to say, no, that's not who you are. Yeah, that was completely not reality. In that, I see, I understand. I, you know, you know, this is actually, yes, so you were expecting not, you know, let me fix you. You would have been more responsive to people telling you the truth. I don't know what I would have been responsive to at that point. I did not initiate that conversation. And so I was yanked into it and then told a bunch of stuff. And then thrown back out again. I mean, so there was no real dialogue. And that was, I guess, would have been great if we actually got to have dialogue. There wasn't, it was more of a monologue. But you knew that this wasn't right though. I knew that that lifestyle was not right with that conversation. Their response to you wasn't right. I didn't care. I mean, sure. I mean, but at that point I didn't, I was not thinking about it. I was completely eaten up in my sin. I was selfish. I was, you know, I was a little monster. I mean, it would have been nice to have had a conversation. I don't know that it would have ended well, but it would at least kept the channels open and I wouldn't have run away and broken off everything. And that's what happened for a long time. I severed myself from them. So the only thing that you're doing at that point is keeping a relationship open. Because that's really, what else are you gonna do? How are people gonna come to us and ask about the hope that's within us if we have no relationship with them at all? And all they know from us is judgment, monologues, and broken relationships. They don't care about your life. They don't care about the hope that's in you. They don't see it. So they need to see a hope. And the only way they can see a hope is if that relationship stays intact. So that would have been something good that could have happened from that. And they did, they prepared a lot just by saying we did that wrong, by confessing it, saying, hey, that was horrible what we did. And you can have a place here anytime you want. I was able to come back around them after that. It took a while, but yeah. Yeah, but it did. It did a lot to repair that relationship. There was one other thing that you brought up that was really good. The idea too, the way that we are transformed also is by seeing, it is by a new identity. In Christ, we've been given a new identity. So if you're dealing with a Christian, if you are dealing with who has fallen, you can very rightly, when they see what they've done, say now, that is not you anymore. You can confidently say that. And a true Christian will respond to that. Will respond in love, gratitude, and Christ-likeness. You'll see fruit out of it. A false convert that's just playing a game will use that in order to send more. Because hey, I've got the name, I've got the deed. I can do what I want to, right? I'm Christian. So you'll see, but when you proclaim that, when you've exposed their sin, you proclaim now that is not you. You don't do this because that is not you anymore, they will respond. That is what changed me over and over and over again was the reaffirmation that is not who you are. You're mine, you're redeemed. You are a holy one because I have pulled you apart, not because of what you have done. It's the gospel. It is the gospel, the power of a new identity. Any other questions? Yes. Did you ever consider the possibility that God no longer condemns homosexuality as a sin? Or did you know anyone in your community who is an outspoken Christian? Why would a homosexual let go? I went to a Unitarian church. Is that right, the Unitarian? Okay, I went through a slight phase where I was like, okay, I'm gonna find a church that says this, right? And so me and my little sinning friends go to a church that's gonna accept us or whatever. And there were people there, and there were people there that would say that, of course, I mean, no, no, God is love, God is whatever, he doesn't. And I went through the whole thing. We're trying to find, hear the arguments. And the thing is, the thing is, it's Romans. Until they are, get to this point where it says, for although they knew him, okay, that he gave them over to believe a lie, as they progress in that, they will eventually, they're eventually given over to where they really believe it. They really do believe it. And one day all of that will be ripped apart and they'll be like, oh my goodness, I knew this the entire time. I really knew it deep down. I really knew it, but I suppressed it. And until the point where I just, I felt like it was really the truth. I didn't go in that direction very long because when I went to the churches, I knew it was empty. I knew it was, and I don't know how I knew. But I got there and what I thought was, I see people praying, I see people doing things. The whole sermon was on lovey, lovey, love, love. But it was like, God is not here. God is not here. I knew that. And I don't know how I knew it, but I just knew it and I never went back. So it was, I still, I tried to suppress it, but I couldn't, I couldn't suppress it. So you are, we work in conjunction with an omnipotent Holy Spirit who will draw those whom He wills. So when we proclaim it, when we live it, the Spirit will come behind us, will empower what we say when He wills it, and He will call those who are His. Those that He won't will be hardened. So a lot of the work in essence is done by the Spirit. We go out and we do what we do, right? With the reliance all the time that it is by the power of the Spirit that this is done. So arguments are fine, but arguments in the end, a lot of times don't save people. I don't know, I probably went off on a rabbit trail and she didn't want me to go on, but. Anybody else? Yes. You worked with Michael Desieree for a little bit, and he's like, he talks about the spiritual home side of like, I just never know how to get to the point where it's like, wait a second, I have a question. Like, I'm so like expecting and like trying to be very like, kind to her, because she is discriminated against all the time, and it's kind of complicated. She's like, you know, she talks about very bad, and I just don't know how to, like, to teach her stuff to her, like, without being that judgmental, self-empowering person who's like, giving me, I never know how to approach that. Sometimes I feel like I don't align with something. Accepting. Yep. Like, I find myself giving her marriage advice. Yep. It's just weird. Yeah. I'm like, what does this do? Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Have you all felt that way? Have you all talked to people before, and it's like, I'm too accepting? I have too. I mean, it's not like I'm running around and I know all the answers to that. But I mean, you're a part of her life. Chances are, she probably does know. I mean, you just living your life in front of her, she probably does know that you're a Christian and knows kind of where your stand is. I mean, I would say, in opportunities where you could pray, it's almost like finding ways that you can support them. Finding ways that you can. Relationships, having a relationship is, you know, I mean, relationships with others, even though that's a sinful, married, sort of crazy relationship, still, relationships are good and a gift from God. And so praying over someone's relationship or finding some way that you can support what they're doing is, like you said, a way to keep that open. I mean, it may end up having to be a slightly awkward conversation at some point where it's just like, you know, I mean, hey, we've had this, you know, I've talked to you a lot, and there's something, even if you were open and honest with her, it's that I feel like there, I have this great treasure in me and I have failed to share it with you. So would you mind if I do? And be okay if she says no. If she says no, I don't want you to, then you're like, okay. But to be open to do that, not with a sense of, I've got to save you, but with a sense of, I have something that is so wonderful that I want to share it, I want to share it. And you would be amazed how receptive anybody is to that and that they'll listen, especially when you've backed it up with reality, you've backed it up with who you are and the fact that you're not Westboro Baptist, you know, die gay people. Or you have to have that relationship to get to that point. And that's when that conversation would go better, is what you're saying, once you've got to that point. Right, it's usually how the conversation will ever go at all, because people in that sort of situation are typically very guarded and they have their community. So if you are in their community at all, then it's a crazy awesome platform to be able to share Christ in some way. And that is tough, sometimes it's tough. But we should not be apologetic about Christ. We shouldn't be like, I know, I don't really, you know, but this is a Jesus thing. Can I just tell you these Jesus things so we get this out of the way? It's like, oh my gosh, you've got this treasure. I've got this that I want to share with you. They share things, she shares things with you, share things with her. And be genuine about it. And if she feels uncomfortable or whatever, just say, oh, well, sorry, I didn't want to make you feel uncomfortable. I mean, be real. I mean, it's a real relationship. There's not gonna be a perfect way that you say everything that's gonna guarantee that there's never an awkward moment. Wouldn't it be awesome if we had that formula? It just doesn't work. It doesn't work for anybody, whether they're in this issue or not. Okay, all right, we probably need to stop, yeah? So it's like five minutes. Okay, let's pray. Father, I thank you so, so very much for this local body. I can feel the love and the unity in this body, and I'm very, very thankful for it. I'm so thankful that they are willing to reach out of their comfort zone and to love the unlovable in a world that is increasingly dark. Father, help us to be salt. Help us to be light. Help us to do it graciously. But help us to do it with a way that would have them asking, what is this hope that you have? What is this love that you have? Because I want to know this is what I need. I need a vision that's bigger than what's right in front of my face. They need your son. They need life. So we thank you, Lord, for the life that you've given us. Help us, Lord, to share it. And Father, I pray for the service this day, that Lord, that your word would be powerfully proclaimed from this place, and that by your means of your body, by means of your supper, and by means of the preached word and prayer and praise, Lord, that we would be transformed more into the image of your precious son. In Jesus' name, amen.