Ep15 A civil servant's journey from the Philippines to Bangladesh_N Martinez-Backstrom with R Kabir

Nayoka Martinez-Backstrom, a change maker from the Swedish Embassy in Bangladesh, discusses her background and experiences in development work. She was motivated to work in the sector by her father's decision to leave his successful business and become a pastor, as well as her education at a socially aware university. She has worked with the Philippine government and UN Habitat, gaining valuable experience in dealing with disasters and crises. She emphasizes the importance of working with central government institutions in disaster risk management and reduction, as well as the need for engagement from all sectors of society. She also discusses the challenges of coordinating multiple ministries in development programs. Welcome to my Mars Mantra Podcast. Today I'm going to bring a change maker from Swedish Embassy in Bangladesh, Nayoka Martinez-Backstrom. Nayoka has been in Bangladesh and she's been working in other countries with the UN and different donor agencies. So Nayoka, thank you for making time today. Thank you. It's my pleasure to be invited to join this podcast of yours here. Yes, I haven't met you personally, but a friend recommended that I should talk to you. So I'm really excited to now meet you virtually. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice to have all these connections from Dhaka, where I'm now currently based. I've been here the last two and a half years. That's brilliant. And I noticed that you've also worked with UN Habitat. We have some common roots of our work. And also you are originally from which country? I'm originally from the Philippines. I grew up in Manila. I'm a big city girl. Like me. Yeah. I grew up in Dhaka. Yeah, exactly. So Manila, Dhaka, and I've always lived in big cities, although I wouldn't consider Stockholm a very big city in the size of Dhaka or Manila. Yes. So yes, because you have such an exciting background, it will be great for you to start with your past experiences. How did you get motivated to work in the development sector? Yeah. Okay. Like I said, I'm Filipino by birth, Filipino parents, quite traditional, middle class upbringing. I grew up in the Philippines in Manila. My father was a businessman. This is the start. My father is a businessman, very successful in what he was doing. And then one day he just decided to sell everything and do something different. So that struck me that some people could actually make that change and take risks over something one really deeply believes in. So my father went from being a businessman to being a pastor of a church in a small city in the Philippines. And then I went to school. It was a Jesuit university that I went to, private school. But during those years, the school went against the grain at the time, the Philippines being Catholic country, but this was a university that was actually teaching you to be socially aware and socially engaged. At that time, it was very popular with this liberation theology movement, where you can't, as a Christian, you can't be not aware and not be enraged or do something about injustice and poverty and all those issues. And true enough, because I lived in this very sheltered university, but just outside the school, we had all the informal settlements. This is Quezon City, the Philippines. It's a huge urban poverty population there. And so I would spend my weekends doing things with the communities. You're either volunteering to teach young children in school or to do census work or to do research for some NGO. So that was the weekend we were doing as university students, being in a Jesuit school. And from then, it seemed just natural to get into development work. And so I had 10 years with the Philippine government. I've always been working with the institutions that make decisions about things. Parliament, different ministries, etc. Until I ended up working for the Swedish government and also with this government background. Yeah. That's amazing. And I understand that Filipino government, they have a great amount of insight and experience of dealing with disasters. So you must have gained your valuable experience from working as a civil servant. Yes, for sure. And it's not only just disasters, but also different forms of crisis. Yeah. Where, you know, you get the whole of society going overturned. Because I remember the time I was in a political situation. Yes, political situation, the instabilities, you know, and also being part of this very engaged society and being, you know, thrown into this movements, you know, movements of urban poor movements of students, you know, trying to make that change, trying to protest against things that they felt were not right. So this is the whole background of me getting more and more deeply involved in development work. Yeah. Interesting. You mentioned that you were part of all the students movement, and then you also worked with the government. How did you match these two together? Yeah, I mean, as a student, of course, because I was also doing part time studies. You know, you get the you become part of like this discussion group and all that. And when there's a protest, for example, I was, let me see how old I was, there was the EDSA revolution, which overthrew the longtime dictator in the Philippines, right, but my parents were engaged in that one. But then there is also this, we had a precedent that was not the right one for the country. And so there was another people power movement there. And I was working with, with the Philippine Stock Exchange and the securities regulatory agency there. But you know, after work, you know, you just have to join the people who congregate in the streets, and you know, trying to, to sort of like be part of this protest against the president, who was pulling the whole economy down. So you get to have this two sides, you are, you on one end, you're the government person, but also on the other end, you are a citizen of of the country. And you you have to care for, for society and where things are moving towards. So yeah, it just happened. Amazing. And I remember that when I was in school, I also remember Philippine on television, because you had these this president's wife who had lots of shoes, and also that the base staff was made of gold. Well, unfortunately, the story has not ended for that family. I mean, we threw them away. Well, like my, my parents generation did that. But then, you know, this current generation voted the family back and now the son is the president. It's like, you know, memory so short that we, we bring back the family that we, we that had, you know, harmed, harmed the country, you know, in the Guinness Book of World Records, the Marcus family, they are the biggest kleptocrats. How do you say that? When you have the huge, you steal so much, the amount of what you steal from the public is so huge. And so they hold the record for that. Kleptomania? Kleptomania. Yes. So I mean, because it's all we are recorded by all this, all the court cases, no? And many of them were won by by the, by the Philippines versus this family. But now we have the son of the same president now in power. So I mean, society really here. And then, you know, develop and say this. Yeah. History repeats itself. That you don't expect. Exactly. And also for you mentioned that, you know, all this development, it happens because the governance is weak. But what I like about the Philippines is that people and the government, they also have done an amazing job in terms of disaster recovery, and having good, robust policies in place. So if you compare Philippines with your current work in Bangladesh, what what do you think we should be doing? Because I think I mentioned that we have a special section, a theme on Bangladesh, because I'm originally from Bangladesh, and we are having a whole whole series in Bangla. But from your perspective, and you spend a long time in Bangladesh, which direction are we going? Yeah, I mean, it's for me, when you when we work with the disaster risk management, disaster risk reduction, it's so important to work directly with the institutions that are responsible for, you know, the prioritization and for coordinating, you know, different actors in the field. So that's the reason why I've always, you know, like, lean towards working with central government institutions, I could have chosen to work with, with NGOs, civil society working on the ground. But for some reason, I've been going towards the engaging with ministries and all that. And I think it's so important that government central government knows what it should prioritize, it knows, you know, how to use its leadership to get the right kind of engagement from different actors. Right? Here in Bangladesh, it's so important that everyone in society is engaged, you know, the disaster risk management is not just the business of government and the communities involved, there has to be a private sector has to be in, you know, and, and there has to be a longer term perspective to this, to disasters, because we know they will, they're coming, increasing in frequency and intensity, you know, and so the whole of society has to be prepared for, for this worsening scenario around disasters. Right? So you need the leadership of central government in this and central government, they would also struggle with resources, they would struggle with having the right capacity to understand which directions to take and all. So this is where you know, a development partner like myself comes in and to help facilitate this, a number of the gaps needed to get the, to get the central government working around its mandates. And the thing that we push for is this, that disaster risk management and risk reduction is not just the business of the Ministry of Disaster Management. I mean, we tend to be so siloed, you know, in the government, we tend to be specialized in that area, mainly because we can control the resources, you know, we, we, we control the theme, we control the area of operation, we control the resources that flows in. So, you know, we want to keep it at that. So we've had a number of experiences as Sweden, where we try to develop programs around resilience that involve three, four or five different ministries. You know, Ministry of Finance, the Ministry of Local Government, Ministry of Women, Children Affairs, you know, Ministry of Environment. And that is a challenge in itself. It's yeah, the inter-ministerial... I totally agree with you, Nayaka, because currently I also work for the UK government. It is so huge. Once you're inside the government, you realize how big the whole machine is. And it is really a big, big machine to move. And it's, it's an amazing experience. But it is really hard when you're inside a big system to make changes happen. But how do you keep your optimism? I understand there are lots of challenges. But tell me about one of the success stories, even a small incident that made you really happy. Yeah, for me, I mean, it's always so important to ask the question why we do these things and for whom, right? Because when you talk about building resilience, like in a country like Bangladesh, who are the frontliners? You know, a lot of the decisions, a lot of the strategies are developed in Dhaka, but the frontliners are not in Dhaka. They are out there, coastal areas, river and communities, you know, those that are seeing how, let's say, disasters and climate change effects are impacting on their land, their livelihood, you know, dislocating them. And so it's so important to have these people in mind and also to be able to travel to these places and to meet them and to get their opinions and their ideas of how, you know, like adapting to this worsening climate should be like, you know, because for them, people in these communities, they don't exactly really know or care about the latest strategy on, you know, climate adaptation or the standard order of disasters, that it has been updated to have a gender lens. I mean, that's important. But then when you go down to the communities, you know, what does this mean? Yeah, you were saying about what is important for Bangladesh. Oh, yes, and also your good memories or, you know, if any memory which stays with you. I was saying that while we work a lot with, you know, policies, having the right policies, the right strategies here, and actually implementing them centrally, because that is the system we have here in Bangladesh, we actually have to ask for whom this policies are. And that means going out of Dhaka and going to the areas where you find the front liners of disasters. The people who are actually who have learned to actually cope with all this stress on their lives and the threats to their homes and their livelihoods and everything they own. These are the contacts that actually create so much more meaning for us who are working, you know, within the policy sphere. So, I try to make it a point to travel whenever I can, following the projects and the programs that the Swedish government supports, and meeting with the people who are actually engaged and trying to make sure that they have their say in the development of the initiative, you know, that we look at indigenous knowledge, we look at what they know and what they observe about their surroundings and what they think should be done by the government, you know, things like that. And these are the meaningful exchanges. And it also means that you being, me being, you know, living in a city like Dhaka, I have to be, you know, connected to my own environment, because there's so many things happening just around me, just by stepping out of my door. There's so many challenges for an environmental and climate practitioner, development practitioner like myself. There's much one can do from one's personal role being in a city like Dhaka. So, there is, one can work with the waste problem here, one can work with the greening, the issues with the water quality, issues with the air. So, yeah, so that's the reason why another so much. Yes. So, for me, what gives me a lot of inspiration is finding people who are also searching for, you know, meaningful things to do, making those connections here in Dhaka. Yeah. And that's how we got connected virtually. I heard that you guys are also doing interesting pilot projects inside Dhaka city. Tell me more about this greening project. Yes, yeah, because like, there are a number of lakes here in Dhaka. Dhaka is a city, you know, surrounded by lakes. And we don't think about it often because many of the waterways have been like built up, built over by developers, right? We have, I guess, changed the landscape, the natural landscape of Dhaka too much. But there are spaces that one can actually work with. And I remember seeing on Facebook a photographer. I didn't know him, but then, you know, he just put out a question there. He said, I'm interested to clean up the lake, Gulshan Banani Lake. And then I looked at the map. I said, oh, that's the lake just, you know, one block away from where I live. So, I replied to his Facebook post. And then I walked over and met him. This is more than a year ago. And then he showed me, you know, he talked about what he wanted to do. And I said, oh, we can do much more. He had his ideas of what to be done to green that part of the lake. And I had my ideas of what to do, taking a systems approach. So, we somehow complemented each other. And so, I felt that my role, I have a black thumb. I'm not a green, a green thumb. You know, I'm happy to volunteer and plant and all that. But I'm always scared that whatever I plant will actually die from too much watering and all. But I think one of the things I contribute to these kinds of initiatives is also expanding the connections and trying to get other people to join in. Because I meet people every day. I get the sense of what people are interested in. And I say, hey, there is this thing happening and you should be part of it. And let's go and let's make it like a mission for our neighborhood to collect the garbage along the lakes and experiment with this artificial wetlands. Because I met another young engineer who makes all this artificial wetlands. So, we've tried to launch a number of wetlands into the lake to try to clean the water naturally. But of course, you know, you get, you encounter all these things like people steal your stuff. They steal the materials you use for the wetlands or they destroy it or they just dump more garbage into the lake. So, now we're looking about not just planting and then seeing our plants either survive or not survive, but also, you know, working with the education of the people who actually use the space. Awareness raising and education for them and trying to make them understand the benefits for them if the place was greener, if the water was cleaner, if the air was cleaner. So, yeah, that's where we are at the moment. So, this is really amazing, Nayako. You mentioned about, you know, you like working with the government centrally, trying to work in policy level, but you are also doing amazing job just on from your own interest. I understand you have a family with you living in Bangladesh. How is it with them and how do you engage your family or friends? Yeah. Yeah. Well, one way is to talk about it and to talk about it in the most positive way. And that's also the reason why it's nice to join these voluntary groups because, you know, it's a good mix. You have the artists and you have like poets and you have like students and you have like people who are just, you know, like walking their dogs and, you know, trying to see what the commotion is all about and try to. So, I mean, from this mix, you get the different sense of, you know, what would draw people into certain things. Then you end up having a common objective, you know, like greening the lake and making sure the garbage is managed for that part of our neighborhood. But then also you talk about it in different ways. You allow people the creativity to also put their sort of like their mark or their own ideas into how things should be done. So, some people would be interested in having this innovative garbage collection things there. Others would be interested in how we can collect water from the lake so we can water the plants on a regular basis. And others would do the, let's say, this what I was describing, the artificial wetland solutions kind of. Yeah. And then you have the leader of the group that is like there every day, every moment of the day and doing his bit and being our inspiration and being the one to bring us all together. Otherwise, we'd all be, you know, like doing bits and pieces. Yeah. I brought my kids there. That's good. Yeah. I've engaged my kids as well. Yeah. So, they're not into this yet. They're nine years old. I have nine-year-old twins. But they know for me, it's enough that they know that their mom likes to do these things. And they know that when I leave the house in the morning, it's either I'm doing this or that, or maybe I'm out there checking out the plants and all. So, they would ask, how is the tree that I planted? Is it growing? You know, things like that. So, at least to put that in their memory, so that later on when they feel, you know, they understand a little bit more, then they have a reference of some sort, you know. That is great, Nayoka. We have another thing in common. We both have nine-year-olds. When I'm doing the podcast, my son tried to listen to the first episode for three minutes and said, oh, it's boring. Yeah, kids. At least your children are finding your work interesting. Yeah, well, it's nice that, you know, they ask questions. For me, the fact that they ask questions, that is like an entry point to talk a little bit more. Exactly. Yeah. But my son is mimicking me all day. Welcome to my Mars Mantra. And I say, I'll pay you. Do you want to give your voice? Can you imagine what our children, how they would describe who we are and what kind of work we do? I bet, you know, my kids have different versions of what their mom does when they describe me to their friends. Yes, that's true. And Nayoka, this now brings me to the future, you know, the sustainability of the planet and the deeper things about climate justice, climate adaptation. And also, you know, Sweden being at the forefront, especially because of Greta Thunberg. What is your view about the sustainable future? How do you see where can we really make a difference? Because, you know, we have Bangladesh at the forefront of adaptation and climate justice, but not much is really happening at the global level. That's something which is really depressing. But on the other hand, what is your take on this? But I mean, once again, you know, it's not very long ago that the whole youth movement actually became so huge and so prominent, right? You talk about Greta and I was living in Sweden at the time when, you know, the news started that there was a 15-year-old sitting outside the parliament, you know, doing her homework while she had this sign every Friday. And, you know, she was doing that despite the weather, right? And, you know, I remember we actually, because I worked with the government already in Sweden, so we actually went to, like, see what she was up to and chatted with her during the early days of her, the early weeks of her protests. And we were wondering about, you know, she might be missing so much in school. But see, this is the beauty of it. When you have a school system that actually encourages this engagement and this desire from young people to be involved in their world, I think that is a wonderful education for people. And so for me working in this field, when we work with young people, you can't, you know, help but just feel hopeful, right? So it's only been five years that the youth movement has got big and coming to Bangladesh, I see so much engagement from young people here against all odds. And they find ways to meet and to form networks and to develop training, capacity building. And now, instead of, like, having young people just being, like, destructive in their activism, there's no, I mean, this is very rare you find the destructive activism here. I've seen versions of that in other places. But in Bangladesh, it's a very constructive kind of activism that you see among the young people, because they actually find channels for dialogue with their lawmakers, with their ministers. And that, for me, is powerful. It has to be supported, because this is how you get, you know, the whole of society really, like, engaged in such a huge crisis as the climate crisis that we face. Right? So that, for me, that is the future that when we know that young people are there giving their, their ideas on how, why we should phase out fossil fuels, for example, and why we should have more of renewables, and why we should have certain types of adaptation strategies for certain types of communities, because they do have a say in all these things. I really think we should listen and, and put them in the, in the places where decisions are being made. So like COP, for example, the conference of parties that is upcoming now, it's the big, it's where all countries will update their commitments around climate action, for example, we really need the young people, not just making noise around the negotiations, but also to be in the negotiating table with their governments. You know, after all, they will be taking over, these are the future leaders, so they have to be encouraged to engage already now, coming from their point of view as young people who are bound to inherit this, this world that we have created, we have mismanaged for them, to say it bluntly. Yeah. So I, exactly. Part of as well of what we do, you know, this awareness raising, you know, we have to work with schools, we have to work with children who are still at that school age. In Sweden, you know, this awareness, the love for nature and awareness of the environment comes very early in life, because we, we have so much, you know, forest, we have so much lakes, we're so connected to nature in Sweden, because there's so much space and resources there, right? In a country like Bangladesh, perhaps in the rural areas, but in the city, you know, how do you get that engagement from people who are young, young people who are growing in the midst of concrete? So, so I, yeah, so we take the time to, to go to the schools and talk to, to universities and teachers about how the environment and climate is integrated into the curriculum, for example, and what kind of extra activities they encourage young people to engage in in the school so that, so that you can combine the interest of young people with also the knowledge that they can get from, from the schools and they get much more, they make much more informed decisions for themselves on what to, to pursue, for example. That's brilliant. So, Nayaka, I see that you, you have amazing way to keep grounded, being at the central level, as well as being on ground. So what is your Mars mantra to keep yourself going and to make sure that you can be more effective in the future? Yeah, for me, being present and being, being like connected to my, my environment and my neighborhood, it's so important. And also being both hopeful and positive. You know, you, each, each small action will amount to something when you connect it with other positive actions. That's how I feel. So, you know, maybe today I might do some very little thing, but tomorrow I could probably do something important. So that's, that is what keeps me inspired on a daily basis, the opportunity to do something, no matter what the size. And then I also think that when you have a positive and hopeful attitude towards things, and then you attract people who will actually help you make this bigger, bigger changes, or who will actually multiply or who will actually spread the things that you are espousing, the things that you are working for. So hence this, you know, finding these groups of volunteers, joining all this small, but very meaningful activities around. There's one that I would like to join now. There's this movement of students who are using Ramna Park every Friday, just to read books. What a beautiful initiative, right? You're, you're sitting there on the grass, under the trees, and then you're reading classics and you're reading poetry and you're just like having quiet three hours of the afternoon. Yeah, so these are the kinds of things that young people come up with and, you know, would be wonderful to just go and be part of, for example. So Bangladesh is full of that. I know, and you know, this is it. We just met, we haven't met, but we just got connected because of our common interests. And I think this is the key thing, that if you have this idea, just go for it and try it out and then others will join you. That's amazing story from you, Nayoka. Especially, you know, when you mentioned about your dad just gave up his business and became a religious leader. That's amazing. And I think that that strength is very important to have for all of us. And is there anything else you would like to say? Yeah, I mean, like going back, you know, like I am here in Bangladesh only for a short time. I am a posted diplomat, as we call it, and it's so easy to be, you know, like to be in the comfort zone and to live in the, you know, the Gulshan Baridara diplomatic zone and be happy with what we do in the office. But I think it's a missed opportunity when we don't get out of this diplomatic zone and actually discover so much of what this country is doing. Yeah. And so many which are positive about this country and its people. So I think, yeah, if this is what is going to make this three years go so fast. So you have one more year. Yeah, I actually asked to be extended. So I am going to stay one and a half more years. I still have one and a half more years to go. And so much more to do. That is so inspiring. Yeah, this is amazing, Nyoka, because you know, sometimes you hear all these negative news about Dhaka being the worst livable city, and all this pollution and all the negativities when you listen to mainstream media, but hearing your story and how you got connected and energized by just being with people. It's a pleasure to have you here today as well. Can I have just one more story? Of course. Yeah, so I remember visiting a young activist who had just been in an accident. This was like last May. And I visited him, went to his home, and then he happened to be together with a youth leader, one of the most prominent climate activists who happened to be visiting as well at the same time. And so we were sitting there, me and this two young activists, and we were talking about all these things happening about the climate and our frustrations. And then we realized, we said, you know what, we have something in common, which is this communications. More than half our work is all about communications. Why don't we bring together whoever we know that's working more than half of their time with climate communications, and let's see if something comes out of this. So, you know, brainstorming like this, and then we launched an initiative, very informal initiative, but it's drawing so much attention because it's now a platform that engages climate specialists from international organizations, embassies, from youth networks, from government agencies even. And we've only met the big group like three times. I mean, the group has convened three times, but we have had a number of spin-offs already of this group. So, for example, this climate communicators group, we realized that the important actors here would be young people and the media. And, you know, in the last two weeks, we have been part of this training of media to be able to cover the issues of climate adaptation and the COP negotiations in a much more constructive way. So, you know, I mean, you start with, you know, brainstorming in the bedroom of some young people, and then you come up with something that's actually relevant to many people, you know. So, I think this openness to possibilities, expecting the unexpected, as I usually say, this is important attitude to have when working in an environment and in a country like Bangladesh. I think that, you know, Nayako, it's not just Bangladesh, it's just anywhere, wherever you are working, it is really important to have that attitude to embrace uncertainties. And we live in a world which is full of frustration, uncertainties. So, it is really an amazing message that you are leaving us with. Thank you. It is a pleasure to meet you, Nayako, and thank you for giving your time over the weekend to have a chat with us. And I hope we meet each other in real life. We'll save a little space for you to plant your trees.