interview_with_ms._lindsay copy 2

Ms. Lindsay is a licensed therapist, private practice owner, and content creator. She works with children, teens, and young adults struggling with ADHD and anxiety. On social media, she focuses on destigmatizing therapy and mental health education. They discuss the impact of social media on teens' mental health, including the need for constant connection and fear of exclusion. They also talk about how social media has changed the way teens engage with their peers, making friendships more complicated and superficial. The conversation then shifts to the unrealistic beauty standards and comparison culture on social media, which contribute to body image issues and self-esteem problems among young users. Ms. Lindsay shares her personal experience of feeling pressured to conform to these standards on social media. Hello everyone, welcome back to the Mindful Moments Podcast. Today I'm joined here by Ms. Lindsay, who is a licensed therapist, private practice owner, TEDx speaker, and content creator. Her clinical work is predominantly with children, teens, and young adults struggling with ADHD and anxiety. Her work on social media focuses on destigmatizing therapy and mental health psychoeducation for her half a million followers. So Ms. Lindsay, how are you doing today? I'm doing great, and I'm so excited to see your face again and get to connect and talk more about mental health, so I'm happy to be here and be a part of this conversation with you. Yes, I'm so excited. I had the privilege of meeting Ms. Lindsay at the Mental Health Creator Summit this summer, and it was just great to hear from all the different content creators on their backgrounds and amazing work in the mental health space, and so I was just so inspired walking away from that event. And we were so lucky to have you, like a teen who you're doing so much great work as well with all the things that you've accomplished, and I think it's really important with a lot of the questions that we're going to talk about today, a lot of the missing voices in these conversations is teens themselves, so I'm so happy that you're doing this. Thank you so much, and I think we're going to have a great conversation ahead. So to jump right off, from your experience working with teens, how have you noticed the rise of social media impacting the mental health of teens and young adults in recent years? Yeah, so I think when we think developmentally about teens, as we grow up, we kind of go through this phase where we're really enmeshed with our families, and we look to our parents to know what's right and wrong, and we want to spend time with our family, and then as we move into those teen years, we care a lot more about our peers, right, our friends, and what's happening at school, and we push kind of against to be away from our family, and then what we see happen is naturally we kind of come full circle and come back as we get older, but in those teen years, when we are kind of pushing against our families and want to spend all of our time with our teens, and our teens' opinions matter more a lot of times than our families' opinions of us, when that occurs, I see social media playing such a role of teens needing to feel constantly connected, so to tell a teen, you don't need to open every Snapchat, or you don't need to get up at 6 a.m. to FaceTime your friends while you get ready for school, there's a lot of anxiety around not doing it, so it's not necessarily like they want to or need to be connected all the time, but it's like, if I'm not on that FaceTime call, and they talk about making plans after school, and I'm not there in the plans after school because I was on FaceTime call, then I'm not going to get invited, I'm going to be out of the group, and so one piece I see is a lot of feeling the need to constantly be connected, the other thing I see is a lot of opportunities to feel excluded or comparison, I don't know if you feel like that. Yeah, I've definitely experienced that. Yeah, and we talked a lot about that, right, about feeling, and being on both sides, right, feeling excluded and then being a part of a group where maybe you know there's some people who want to be there, we feel like we can't invite everyone, or things like that, and it's really hard to navigate those changes in relationships, and when your kids and everyone is just playing together, when they think about how social media impacts that, like when I was in middle school, we had like IM messaging that it had to be on your computer in front of your parents, and so it wasn't as connected, but I would know that people might go have a sleepover, and then I'd have to hear about it on Monday, like I didn't have a front row seat, so now kids are able to watch that sleepover in real time, and what do we post on social media, not the hours that kids are sitting there on their phones, the one funny thing that happens, so when you're the outsider watching it, you're just saying this is the most fun thing, and I'm not invited, so I think there's a lot, it's harder when you're excluded because it's just in your face more, and on top of that, there's a lot more ways to be excluded, so there's different group chats, or Snapchat groups, or some of my clients talk to me about who has the most comments on their Instagram posts, it's like she didn't comment on this, or she didn't like this post, so I just think there's a lot more nuances in relationships, and a lot more to keep up with, and multiple platforms, and so it can be really overwhelming for teens, I don't know, what was your experience, like how do you feel like social media has played a role in that? Yeah, I think you captured that perfectly, I mean, we have this phone in our hand, or in our pocket, and it's just with us all the time, and so that social connection is constantly on our minds, and like you mentioned, every time we're excluded from something, it's in our face, because we can just see it in real time on social media, and so I think friend groups become a lot more complicated, like social connections are a lot more kind of brought into this trying to be perfect world, rather than just enjoying the simplicity of friendships, and just going out, and having fun, and so I think social media has definitely changed the way in which we engage with our peers as well, and that's the biggest part for me, that's the most difficult, because sometimes you might just want to go enjoy the afternoon with your friends, but it's like let's post a TikTok, and then hours go into which one, and how to make it perfect, and so it's become a lot more superficial than genuine, and I think social media has definitely revolutionized the way we think about hanging out with friends. 100%, and I think to reiterate just what you said, how a lot of times our conversations become around social media, like what are we going to post, or things like that, and I do think there's a creative element, it can be really fun to create content, but it does get a little muddy as well, so I think that there's great things that come with social media, I think people who don't feel connected at school find ways to feel connected with people online, and I think that it can be a space to explore yourself, and teens are also trying to figure out who they are, so they can try on a bunch of different hats through social media, like oh do I feel edgy, or am I like this, what do I like, and they can get information about questions they might not feel comfortable asking their parents or peers, however, again, it's not well regulated, and so sometimes it can become a sounding box, so people can feed their fears that they might be going through, so yeah, I think it's increased a lot of teens' anxiety, and they're impulsive. Teens' brains are not fully developed, so we also have not done a great job teaching them how to use this app or these apps, and so I think it also gives an opportunity to make a lot more maybe mistakes with teens, because it's not saying it to someone's face, you know, it's behind a screen, it's always readily available, when I'm mad at my friend, I'm sitting at home, like should I call Maggie and tell her, like you can just shoot a text so quick, I don't know about you two, I'm hearing a lot more of my younger clients sharing their location with each other, which adds a whole other layer of Snapchat location, and they'll be like, these three people are hanging out uptown, and they're not answering my text, so now I'm like, instead of it going to more, using social media more appropriately, I feel like we're in the other way, where it's like now people have each other's locations, and are really like tracking each other. Yeah, I agree, that location piece has definitely changed a lot, because now you can see who's hanging out with who if you're not there, and it kind of becomes an obsession in a way, because if you're just on a Friday night on your own, rather than just enjoying your night with your family, you're trying to see which social group you're left out of, and so I definitely agree that connection piece has just been taken to a whole other level. Yes, definitely. So I think this can give us a great segue into our next question, which is, how do unrealistic beauty standards and comparison culture on social media contribute to body image issues and self-esteem problems among young users? Yes, you know, for this one, I think I have an interesting perspective on social media, because I post, so like I've been on social media, and I know like for me, I might have a bigger platform, but like, I like to explain it's like, when things happen with me on social media, it might be like a lot more people commenting, and I might have a lot more followers, but for a teen, that is like their world, right? So as I feel like when things happen with me, it's comparable to like a teenager and what it might feel like in their world. And so what I've noticed is I never really posted on social media until I got on TikTok, and I observed within myself, I never really like putting on more makeup. I never really wore makeup every day. I found myself putting on more makeup. I found myself like paying attention more to like what my body looks like than I would have in the past, and comparing myself of like, oh, am I as pretty as this person? Or am I gaining followers as much as this person? Or did this post, why didn't this post get as much love as this one? And I had to pause and be like, oh my gosh, what is happening to me? And since it was something that was newer for me, I had to go back and be like, okay, what would I tell a client if they were starting to feel like this because of social media? And so I think that it just naturally, you're looking at yourself, you're posting yourself, and you're viewing other people, causes that natural comparison in our brain of how am I measuring up to these other people? And so a piece of advice that I like to give my clients and what I do with my clients, if I know that they spend a lot of time on social media, is we do a social media cleanse. So I think we often, we get this app, we enjoy it, and then all of a sudden, it turns into something that's not as enjoyable. So how do we teach people to recognize when is it crossing that barrier? When is it becoming not fun and connection and a place that feels good? And we do social media cleanse, unfollow the people that make us feel bad. You can always go back and search them if you want to see what they're up to. If you pay attention, like, what are my warning signs that maybe I need to take a break? And so if I find myself being like, oh, having thoughts of like, I'm not good enough, or focusing more on how many views my video got, which is not why I'm on TikTok, then I tell myself, okay, I need to take a break. So I think for teens, that same thing happens because you're a teenager. And it's natural to compare yourself to your peers. And then here's a space that's just fostering all of that and only showing, again, the highlight reels of people's lives. And filters and challenges and different things like that can make it really, really hard to or like, cognitively, we might know, okay, that's a filter. People don't actually look at that real life. But in reality, it's hard to understand that emotionally. I totally agree with that. I think even on Snapchat, it's, you know, like, you just used to send like silly messages. But now there's beautifying filters that kind of change the way people are looking at Snapchat. I know that it's, I've also noticed that once I got on social media, I started noticing like, wow, people are, you know, looking at like, they have really perfect lives. And I'd have to remind myself that that's not actually the reality. And like you mentioned, I love how you talked about the social media cleanse, because during the school year, when, you know, stress is already high in school, I know that I can't take on extra stress of like comparing myself to other people on social media. So that's the time where I'll usually delete the app. And then maybe during a vacation or a break, I'll come back to it. But I think, yeah, it's really important to be able to recognize when social media is being more negative than positive. And it's really mature to be able to step back and say, I'm going to, you know, take some time away or unfollow people that are making me feel bad about myself. Because that's kind of the first step to recovering from all this, is like self-acceptance and accountability. So I think that's a great idea you mentioned. 100%. And I just think that people don't think about it. We often think black and white thinking, right? It's just like, you can delete the app for a week and go back to it. It's not going anywhere. You know, sometimes people just don't recognize that they have that option. I totally agree. All right. So let's take a look here. So in what ways can cyberbullying and online harassment affect the mental well-being of teens and young adults? And what strategies can they employ to cope with or prevent such experiences? Mm-hmm. So when I think about cyberbullying, it's kind of like what I was saying earlier, where before there was social media, people, I'm thinking middle school right now, right? Middle schoolers, there was a lot of parents around, teachers, adults, someone around when they're interacting with each other. Unless they're like with their friends walking, right? There's situations, but a majority of their time is spent where there's adults within earshot. And so I think that places a barrier for kids around that lack of impulse, like that lack of impulse control. So they kind of watch what they say and know their behaviors are being watched a little bit. When you take away that piece and now you have kids online with poor impulse control in a space to be able to say whatever they want to each other, and when emotions get high, no one's stepping in like, oh, I hear yelling. Let me figure out what's going on. I think it's a lot harder to help kids with that cyberbullying piece. And I think that sometimes kids have a hard time identifying that what's happening is cyberbullying. Or they do, and I'm like a teacher noticing like, hey, it seems like you're upset or it seems like those kids weren't being kind to you. Now it's someone in their bedroom with their door shut. This is occurring. And they have to take that extra step of saying, hey, mom, hey, dad, or hey, grandma, or whoever it is, this is happening and this doesn't feel good. And so I think that burden of that being on the kid or the teen makes it really hard. The other thing when it comes to cyberbullying is I think sometimes teens think they're being funny, they're recording each other and not really understanding the ramifications of how it might impact that person. When you get into your teen years and people may be doing more risky behaviors or not making the smartest choices, and now it's being recorded and shared everywhere, like it's just adding a layer of like your behaviors can be recorded forever, right, in opportunities where there is no parental supervision occurring or adult supervision. And so kids just like, I also say look at parents' Facebook groups. Like my town's Facebook group, like the things that adults say to each other in there, I'm like, you would never say that to someone in person. Like, oh, my gosh. And how dysregulated they get. And then they're like, I don't get why kids are being mean online. I'm like, adults are having trouble regulating their emotions in a Facebook group about like a stop sign going off. I'm like, imagine teens when they're emotionally charged and insecure, and here's a space I can put it, or when they're like kind of with each other, amping each other up, not really thinking of the consequences. So I think that there's a lot of layers to it, but the lack of people being aware and making it harder to talk about it. And then schools, sorry, now I'm really rambling, but then I also think about schools, I think schools are having a really hard time with understanding what to do, because before when bullying occurred at school, it's the school's responsibility to get involved and react, right? Yes. Some research in the UK about how many people felt cyberbullied, and I don't want to misquote, it was a very high number, and then it was like 70% of those people reported to the school and felt like nothing happened. So, and I don't want to blame the schools, because I think it's really hard, because it's an online platform, so whose responsibility really is it? And when it doesn't happen on school grounds, what is the school's right? So I think there's a lot of conversations we're not having, we're just kind of saying social media is bad for mental health, and we're not really breaking down the pieces of like, well, where is it hard? Where is it bad? I'll put in air quotes, and what are we doing about that? And so I think we need to figure out ways that the schools can appropriately, that feels good for them and to the community, support these teens in these online spaces. Yeah, I really agree with that, and you kind of touched on our further question about schools and educational institutions. So, first of all, you mentioned about not being able to see the recipient's reaction to your message. That's a huge thing that I've noticed, especially during the pandemic when we were all at home, and that was our only form of communication. Like, students could just take a picture of somebody on Zoom when they were at a bad moment, and all of a sudden it's a meme being spread across the student body. So, you know, we can't see the other person's reaction anymore, so it becomes a lot easier to send hateful messages. And maybe sometimes we're not even intending for it to be hateful, but it just, it takes that kind of tone while it's being shared. And in terms of schools, I think, you know, you mentioned some great points, and I think that education within schools on kind of cyberbullying and how it can really have a negative effect on students is important as well, but I think that oftentimes schools aren't prioritizing those discussions. So, that's definitely something that schools can look forward to, because it really does benefit students to just hear a perspective of somebody who may have been bullied online or just see how it affected that person. And then a lot of the time it does spark that kind of feeling of, you know, regret, but also, like, change and kind of hope for the future within students. And so, I think that's an important piece as well for schools to consider. Prevention. I love it. Like, education, prevention through education. And I think the piece that we often miss as well, like, from when I talk to my clients or my, like, I coach a middle school cheer team, when I talk to my cheerleaders or just teens, what I often hear from them is when situations like this occur, they, not even focusing on the one person who was saying the mean things, but what about the kids who are passing it around or who weren't there in the moment. And what I often find is, like, they have that little voice inside. Maybe it's, like, mom's voice inside their head being, like, this is not funny or, like, this is not okay, because they don't know what to do, because they don't want to then say something and then become a target, right, or be like, oh, my gosh, you're such a baby. Like, who cares? And so, I think with education, a piece that could be so powerful that I hear from teens is giving them language of what to do in those moments when they do feel like something's happening. They don't want to be a tattletale and tell their parents, oh, this video is going around of someone, because then it's going to be like, why did you tell on me? So, I think we need to find a way to give kids clear pathways of what to do when this is occurring and where they can go to. And if I'm confused, and parents are confused, and schools are confused, who's responsible for it, how are teens supposed to be able to, like, we always say, why didn't you say anything? Well, it's like, we haven't really taught them how to, and now we're, like, mad at them that they didn't say anything. That's so true. I completely agree. And kind of on that note, in terms of parent support, what role can parents or caregivers play in supporting the mental health of children? Like, are there specific conversations they should have? Because we mentioned there's some confusion around that. Or are there guidelines they should consider without kind of imposing on their teens? Like, are there different solutions that you think are effective? Yes. And I always say, every kid is different. Right? And I think that makes parenting really, really challenging now more than ever. Because I like to go based off a responsibility aspect. And it can be hard when you know, you may have, like, three kids, and one might be able to handle social media a lot more maturely than the other. So, it can be really, I want to validate for parents that it's very muddy. There's no clear answers. And it's really, really hard to know what to do. But what I usually tell parents that I work with in sessions is, we start with the responsibility aspect. So, you want to teach kids how to use the app. And it's the only thing that you're telling them, or social media, or things like that, is, you're constantly on your phone, and that's why you're missing assignments. Even if that is 100% true, the teen is not going to hear that from you just, like, kind of drilling it in them. Especially when it's like, you're looking up the grades, and you see they're missing a bunch of assignments. And you're just like, I'm taking your phone away. You want to be able to have them recognize it on their own, and be able to regulate that. Now, that takes time and practice. And again, teens don't have that ability naturally yet. Their brain is still growing. They're still learning. So, what I like to do is, I like to start off with one social media that the kid really wants, and let it be on the parent's phone. So, they can use it on their phone. And really, what you're telling the kid is, what I want to see from you is that, if anything happens on this app, that you come tell me. Even if it's like the smallest thing, like, oh, I saw an ad that made me uncomfortable. Or someone said something mean. You didn't get involved. You didn't say anything. But what we're practicing is that skill that I'm seeing a lot of teens are missing of that open communication with parents. And what I tell parents to respond back with is, oh, how did that make you feel seeing that? Or what do you want to do with that? Because then you're helping the kid learn to identify their feelings and problem solve what to do in these situations. So, if the kid is able to come to you, or if there is a situation where maybe they said something, or they're not supposed to be on it after 10 and they went and used it after 10, like, you know, whatever it is, if you're able to have a conversation and you can see that they're trying and the growth is there, then we can move on to like, okay, they can have it on their own phone. But I would definitely suggest, like, regulating the time. I definitely suggest not letting kids have their phones at night when they're younger. It's just a bad habit to get into. And I think what's hard is, like, when they're younger and not everybody has the social media or they're just starting out with it, it feels like, oh, they don't use it that often. So I can just give it to them whenever they want. But then when they get older and you do notice that, oh, it's impacting their sleep or they're on their phone too much, it's harder to go backwards. So I always say, like, set those expectations now, even if you feel like you don't have to, because that's great. Then you don't have to fight with them about it. But really what you're looking for is conversations and make opportunities. Check in with them. Be like, hey, what's going on? Like, do you see any funny videos on TikTok today or whatever it is? And then grow it slowly. I always say, like, you should have your own account and follow their account. Make it hard for them to make bad decisions, right? You're putting in barriers so that they can question, like, oh, my mom can see this or things like that. But very clear rules, very clear expectations, and very clear consequences for if they're not using it appropriately that they're aware of beforehand. That's, like, what kids need. And what I often ask parents, too, is I say, you know, who does your kid like on social media? Who's their favorite TikToker? And they'll be like, I have no idea. And so I'm also, like, curious. Like, be curious of what your kid is watching, because that can also tell you a lot about what's going on in their world. So if they're watching, like, fashion stuff, videos, or if they're watching, like, people gaming, or that's great. Because a lot more of social media impact is, like, depending on what they're doing on the app than necessarily just them being on it, you know? And if they're watching, like, a lot of sad videos, it's like, oh, my gosh, that has to be bringing you down, right? And you can have a great conversation about how what we watch impacts our mood. So I think starting early on, take baby steps, even if it feels like you don't have to. And you're really looking for responsibility. Will they come to you if something's going on online? Because I get these teens who are, like, someone messaged me, and I don't follow them, right? The account has to be private, no personal information, all those things. I don't follow them, and they messaged me, and it's, like, clearly an older man. I was like, did you talk to your mom about this? And they're like, no, because she'll take TikTok away, so I can't tell her. So I'm like, although you feel like you're protecting them, you're putting a barrier in between them sharing with you something that's happening. Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that, because I think the piece that a lot of us teens are missing is that if something happens, like, for example, you're messaging someone who's clearly an older man, the first person you think to tell is, like, your best friend or somebody you know, but not your parents. And in reality, your parents are the people that can probably help you the most. Yeah. I love that idea of, like, starting out with your parents' phone and building that trust, and also kind of the parents initiating conversations that can help them connect over social media, because then social media is not viewed as something that's always a negative, you know, part of your life and something that's always a distraction, but rather something that can kind of spark creativity or innovation. But, you know, it's a great tool, honestly, it would help the negative effects. In connection, like, I love Christmas time, like holiday time, when people are inside more and you see all these families, like doing these TikTok trends or playing games. And it's like, so fun and cool. And so it's like, reminding ourselves of those pieces and understanding the complexity of social media. Exactly. I love that complexity of social media. It's a great way to put it. And in terms of kind of those social media different elements, what are some changes or improvements you think that social media platforms themselves should consider to make better support for mental health of their users, especially the younger ones? Yeah, I think that they're, I don't know if it's necessarily like two different apps, but I think that their feeds should look a lot different. I think, you know, the access, like when I was growing up, it's like Disney channels that everybody watched, right? And that was very safe. Our parents knew that on that platform, we would watch anything that's age appropriate. I'll never forget, I went over to my, someone I worked with's house and her daughter was watching the show You, which like probably came up on Netflix recommended, right? And everybody's watching it, but it's like a really, you know, it's about like murdering women. I'm like, this is like, and I knew this girl, she's like an, I'm like, this is not a show that like, this probably isn't helpful for her to be watching. Right. And so I think, and then of course my, like who I worked with was like, oh my gosh, I didn't know that. I thought it was just like a romance show. And even the kid didn't know that because she just started it. So it's like, I think it's a lot harder to, you can't watch every little thing that your kids are watching. So there's too much out there. So I think platforms need to do a better job of what age is the user and making the content that's only appropriate for that age group accessible to that teen. And also like recognizing, having better review of content. Like when people stuff or just themselves catching it before it gets to millions of views and things like that. I totally agree with that. I think the reviews is a really important piece. I think that the way that, you know, movies are required to put, you know, R rated or PG or the way cigarettes have to show that they cause cancer. I think social media companies also need to demonstrate that it can have a negative impact on mental health of like teenagers and young people. 100%. And I think they need to have teens themselves involved in the conversation. Like, I think that's a piece that's often missing. It's like, we think we know what's best for teens. And although I might understand their brain better than they do, they know what it's like to be a teen and what's impacting them and what would be helpful. And I also think like the never ending feed is really bad. Like how you just scroll and you don't know where the time goes. Like the way even that the platforms are structured is not the most helpful. I agree. And this is a side note. I'll edit it out later. But my meeting is just eight minutes remaining because I have a 40 minute cut. So I'll address the last question and then we can. Yeah, perfect. So on a final note, are there any specific self-care practices besides the social kind of claims that we talked about or mindfulness techniques that you recommend for young people to maintain their mental health in the digital age? Yes, so many. I think we are constantly distracted or connected. And kids now have a hard time being bored because you can always scroll or watch this or do that. And so I think it is really important to do prevention mental health work. So it's not just when you're feeling stressed or just when you start to feel anxious. But like, what are you doing every day? I think the easiest times at night or in the morning, just identify your feelings. How are you feeling today? Put a word to it because a lot of times we have a hard time labeling what we're actually feeling and just reflect on what's going well and pay attention to how we talk to ourselves. So something as small as like making and everybody responds differently to different coping skills. So it's just a matter of what you like. But it could be practicing deep breathing every morning. It could be journaling every night. It could be YouTube has a bunch of guided meditations that are great. But it's about doing something daily for your mental health that helps keep us at a good spot. Even coloring or doing like crafts or planting things, like anything that makes us feel connected and present in the moment. So practicing being present and connected to yourself can be really helpful. I totally agree. I think daily things for mental health are really important. Personally, I've been doing like a daily exercise because it just helps me get my mind off of school stress or social stress. So I totally agree. It really does make a big difference for teens to just have something that they do routinely that's just for themselves and not for the social eye or for anyone else. Yes. And I love walks. Like, yeah, moving your body is really important. Definitely. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of your insights and solutions today. It was great talking to you and connecting after some time. Of course. I had so much fun. And thank you so much for having me. Thank you. And thank you, everyone, for tuning into the podcast. We'll see you in the next episode. Okay, I'll pause the recording now.