E23 Executive Coaching: Master Leader Makers and Trusted Advisors

Dr. Bonnie Wilson, an internationally certified coach and consultant, specializes in executive coaching for tech executives who want to advance their careers. She shares her own experience of being thrown into a managerial position without mentorship or coaching, which inspired her to help others in similar situations. Dr. Bonnie focuses on helping leaders transition from being promotion ready to being selected for promotion. She emphasizes the importance of personalized coaching tailored to individual objectives and the need for a coachable mindset. She also discusses the stigma around coaching and the hesitation some leaders have, attributing it to a lack of understanding and awareness of the value of coaching. Dr. Bonnie highlights the importance of research and experience when choosing an executive coach, highlighting the need for certification, experience, active listening skills, and a collaborative approach. Welcome to Coachonomics Presents Podcast, a part of the ECS Network. This is the Masters of Leadership Teachable Moment Series. I'm your host, Laura Perez Earhart. I'm the CEO of Epiphany Consulting Solutions, a management consultant and executive coach. I want to welcome my special guest, Dr. Bonnie Wilson, the CEO of Exceeding the Mark, an internationally certified coach and consultant. Dr. Wilson works with tech executives who want to be promotion ready and prepare for their impending role. Combining her own past executive level roles and coaching practices to move clients from promotion ready to promotion selected. Dr. Bonnie, it's great to have you here on the show. I'm so looking forward to our conversation and to learning about your expertise in coaching and professional development. And how you work with leaders to help advance their careers. Talk about why coaching. What got you started in this field? Well, Laura, thank you so much for having me. I was so excited as I was counting down the days to do this. What got me started is being thrown into a position with little to no mentorship or coaching. I was an assistant head nurse on like a Tuesday. The head nurse brought us all in a room and said, I'm going to be leaving who's interested. That was like Wednesday. She told me, go home and think about it. And I said, yes, on like a Thursday or Friday. On Monday when I came in, I was the manager. And that Thursday she was gone. And I was left to do the budget by myself. There was much weeping and gnashing of teeth. I was in the bathroom crying all the time. Every time they'd say an FTE or expense object code or capital, it was literally look at what they said, go in the bathroom, cry, come back and try to do it. I realized that over time as I became more conversant and got a lot of skills in leadership, that was my goal to make sure no one ever had to go through what I did. So it was kind of trial by fire. No one should ever have to do that. Wow, that is pretty brutal. I'm sure a lot of people out there that are listening to this can relate. Talk about the type of coaching that you provide leaders. I do executive coaching, which means I provide coaching to director level and above. My expertise is helping leaders get from that place of where they are promotion ready to promotion selected. And by that I mean have you ever met someone who said, you know, I don't understand, I've been here for at least a year or more. I know I want to be promoted, but I'm never chosen. I don't know if you've ever met somebody like that. I have. So I help them go from being in that promotion ready where they think they're ready to actually being selected or put in the succession pipeline or that promotion ready pipeline. Yeah, it's really important to, you know, set themselves up for success, right? It is being strategic and preparing for their future. We know Dr. Bonnie as professional certified coaches. Coaching is not a one size fits all. It's personalized for each individual based on the objectives that they want to meet both professionally and personally. So those who seek out professional coaching need to come with an open mindset. What does it mean for someone to show up and be coachable? Someone asked me, Bonnie, what kind of people, what's your favorite person to coach? And I said the exact word you just used. I said somebody who's coachable. I've had a client that literally came in, he was given coaching by his job, so they provided it. And each of our sessions, I would say, you know, so we talked about some things last time. You had some goals in mind, but what do you want to talk about today? Because a lot of times people have an event that just happens. And each time he would say, oh, I don't know, what do you want to talk about? And it would just make the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Because I would say that this is not my coaching session. This is yours. I'm here to help you get through the issues and challenges that you have. But he would do it almost every time. And to me, that's not someone that's coachable. There's also someone that's not necessarily coachable that is put into coaching because they're a performance issue. So I also had someone years ago, early in my coaching career, that I should have paid attention to. They wanted her to receive coaching, and when they explained everything, when I started really asking questions, it was around the time of the George Floyd murder. And they said they wanted a woman of color to help with changing the culture and helping this one woman. And as I dug into it, what I found out was they wanted somebody that looked like her because her complaints were about microaggressions. As I kept asking questions, what I found is she was a performance issue, and they were trying to do one last-ditch effort to give her what she needed. So what ended up happening is, as I'm coaching, I'm like, this is not going well. She's, you know, everything I say, she has a reason why it's not going to work. And over time, they ended up stopping the coaching because they said that she said I wasn't telling her what to do, I wasn't moving her along, that I had asked some people questions that I said I wouldn't ask. What's interesting is after they terminated my services, which I should have done early on, they said about two months later she was terminated. So, again, performance issue. It was like, let's throw one last thing in her record to say we did everything we could, but now I'm smart enough to ask the right questions, and I'm not for everybody. Like you said, coaching has to be very personalized, and I know I'm not the right person for them. What I'm hearing, to show up and to be coachable means show up prepared, come with an agenda, but also come with specific objectives in mind that the individual wants to accomplish. Even though coaching has become well-known over the years, there seems to still be some hesitation from professionals about coaching and its value. Why were some leaders reluctant today about coaching? Is there a stigma? There is. If you think back to the person I was coaching, I think she knew in the back of her mind that this was probably her PIP, to get coaching was part of her performance improvement plan. So that's one of the things people see it as a, I'm not doing a good job, and so you're throwing gluten-free spaghetti at the wall. And, oh, by the way, gluten-free spaghetti doesn't stick. People think it's a nice-to-have instead of a have-to-have. It's not a nice-to-have. Again, because they don't know what the process is and don't realize that coaching is research- and evidence-based, there are still organizations that the finance officer, the CFO, says, well, I don't see the value in this. And I see it a lot in health care organizations, but I don't see the value in coaching. I don't see the value in coaching. Well, I don't see the value in this. And I see it a lot in health care organizations. The first thing that is cut in a health care organization when the budget has a lot of money that needs to come out, many times the first thing is education. Is it that we coaches and executives are not doing a good job of showing the ROI? And then the next thing is the leader at the organization isn't told early on what the commitment is. You know, there's three things that you need in the beginning. So you're going to need time, investment, and effort. So you're really going to have to put this time in. Here's the amount of time we're going to meet, here's your effort, and here's the investment. But I don't think folks explain the time. So here's what they think. I'm doing my job and this is just something extra. Instead of I'm doing my job and this is for my development, so this is work time. So I think it's a combination of all those where folks don't see the value. As coaches, I don't think we're always good at showing the value. And it's not put in the performance development plan so that you can get to your next level of leadership and you can be the best leader that you can be. There's so much truth to that. It's just starting to work in an organization, that's one of the things that we do talk about, is the return on their investment, what the organization can expect from the development of their executives once they've gone through the coaching program. But also being able to measure their growth and development as they're going through the coaching program is really important. So Dr. Bonnie, coach and work with people to scale their skills, prepare them for promotion, develop a strategy for thoughtfully designing their career plans. What should professionals consider before hiring an executive coach? What should they know? I think they should do their research in finding a coach just like many of us do in finding a position, or even finding the person to do our hair, or the person to do our nails. Rarely do people just, like, pick someone on the street. So you're looking for someone that is ICF certified, saying I've gone through the knowledge test. You're also looking for someone that has done this for a while. Well, you want someone that understands that active listening, and you want someone that can understand that we are not there to give people the objectives of where they're going. I'm not here to make you get where you need to. I'm here to help you get where you want to go. But this isn't my agenda. And it also may not be the agenda that you come with originally. So I ask early on, what is success going to look like later on? So you're looking for somebody with experience that's ICF, International Coach Federation certified, that's been coaching for a while, and that understands and listens well to what it is you want to accomplish, and is able to talk to you as an equal, not as I'm smarter than you are. Absolutely. Coaches come with different experience. If someone is listening to this podcast, and they're at an executive or senior level role, they need to look at executive coaches that have held equal status, who know specifically about the business. They know the challenges that executives or senior executives face. They understand the skills, the capabilities, the acumen that's required at that level. And they also understand the industry. You said something really that piqued my interest, when you said they understand the industry. I think sometimes executives think, well, you can't be my coach because I'm in manufacturing and that's not your background. And what I encourage people to think about a lot is, you're right, I didn't work in manufacturing, but leadership is leadership and leadership challenges are many times the same across the board. I'm always amazed that I can meet with a tech leader at 8 o'clock in the morning and meet with a finance leader at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and the same issues are coming through. All of them are struggling with staying down in the weeds instead of staying at a level that's strategic. All of them are struggling with, well, how do I hold this person accountable? All of them are struggling with employee engagement. How do I make the person feel like I want them to stay here? How do I keep them focused on where we want to go? When I hear you say understand the industry, I think of the industry as industry of leadership. Now, even as I say that, I know healthcare leaders think no one understands their world but another healthcare leader. And if healthcare leaders could get out of some of that mindset, I think healthcare leaders would have a different approach. It's understanding how to be an appropriate leader and understand that as a CEO, my challenges are going to be different than when I'm a director. Through my years of experience as a management consultant, business consultant, we offer coaching as an effectual tool and services. I service over 15 different industries, including healthcare. And the beautiful thing is when I'm working with these executives, and we're talking about their specific challenges, whatever industry they're in, that I can bring the experience and knowledge of what other, like you said, someone from tech, I'm talking to someone in healthcare, they're experiencing the same challenges. Of course, they're very specific to them, and they're very unique to them, but they're not unique to someone like you and I. Those challenges are ubiquitous. They happen in all industries and all organizations. So the great thing is for someone like you or myself, Bonnie, we can bring the wealth of shared insights and perspectives that other industries have gone through as we help these individuals grapple through and work through their own issues. But now that we're talking about leadership in the realm of business, organizational success, both management and leadership play crucial roles. While they're often used interchangeably, they embody distinct qualities and functions. What's the difference between management and leadership? That's a good question. And I wish someone had explained this to me when I first started working. So I think of my early years as an assistant head nurse. I was a manager. So I was focused on tasks. I was focused on time cards being done. I was focused on people coming to work on time. We have to get evaluations done. Some of those day-to-day things. As a leader, you're focusing on culture and making sure the department is running in a fluent manner and that the staff are engaged. They know what we're here for. They're focused on the mission and vision. You also have a lot of focus on your people. So I say as a leader, I'm seeing more globally. I'm seeing bigger than a manager. I see a manager as day-to-day and task-oriented. I see a leader as culture-oriented. And how do I serve the people that I'm working with? How are we best serving our organization and our community? I got them confused for a long time. I was so focused on the schedule needs to be out on time. I don't have all the time cards. The evaluations are due at this time. I didn't know to focus on, so what are your performance development goals? What do you want to be when you grow up? Let's talk about the gap between where you are and where you want to be. Leadership today is held at some really high standards and expectations because the demand is much higher today. So they really need to know how to scale and be decisive, be results-driven, and have really good communication and listening skills. What makes an individual leader ready as an executive or a senior leader position? You're ready for a leadership position, a senior leadership position, when you can see beyond your own department or beyond your own realm. You can't see my hands on a podcast, but it's beyond this globe of just my world. As you get up to the director level, you usually have multiple departments. When you get up to that senior level, you're usually managing those who manage those over the departments, so you're supposed to be seeing at a more global level. And then once you get up to the CEO level, they're usually seeing externally, how do I keep a connection with the external stakeholders? You're ready when you have started that journey kind of on your own of reaching out into the community. You're ready when you've started connecting with other departments, saying, what can I do to help our departments to work together better? So as a director, I can remember in my own life as a manager, I was so focused just on that one department. Then as a director, I was like, okay, how does my department work with other outpatient departments or with other inpatient departments? My vision got wider instead of narrower. That's a good word. It got wider. I got you. Narrower. But when I was a CNO, I had the opportunity to look at the whole organization and then reach out into the community saying, how do you see us? How can we better serve the community? So I think it's literally the view that's different. Yeah, absolutely. So as professionals, it's important to remember that each level, as we're talking about, requires a different set of skills. And it's equally as important that they focus on capabilities that helps them to set a successful career trajectory. So let's talk about the capabilities and mindset needed at the executive and senior levels. Let's start with the executive level and the skill sets that are required. Can you name a few? I think I'd go back to what we were talking about a few minutes ago. You know, seeing beyond means I'm building relationships. So I'm a good communicator. I'm a good relationship builder. I want to help other departments be successful. And really stretching beyond my own department and starting really to get into the strategy of the organization. So which direction is the organization going, and how do I help my department and others understand what their part is in that? I think as you get up to the C-suite, so CEOs, there's a reason they're the chief is because they're into the details, but they're also into the details for the whole organization. So I see them as really needing good organizational skills, accountability that I think has to be learned early on, and then the higher you get, it's where are you putting that accountability. As a CEO, the CEO, I actually had a CEO that was doing this. He was going down like at the manager level, finding out why they weren't turning in some reports. And I said, if you're doing that, then what's your vice president doing? And he's like, well, you know, I just need to make sure that the people that are reporting to her are doing it. I'm sorry, that's not your job. Because if you're doing her job, what is she doing? So the CEO should be having the vice presidents reporting to them and reporting out what's going on. And the other skill you need when you get up there is where is the gap? How do you close it? How are you talking about their departments? Then how are you closing the gap on the places that aren't? Are you giving them great evaluations when their employee engagement and customer service? Look, here's a professional word for you, sucky. I mean, what are you doing? That bad behavior shouldn't be rewarded. At that C level, especially at the CEO level, it's really important to stay out of the weeds. That's why we hire really good people that are more intelligent than us or have more knowledge than us in specific areas. They carry an expertise that we lean into and let them do their jobs. It's not for us to do their jobs for them. We're talking about skill development and developing superpowers at the leadership level. However, aspiring leaders need to demonstrate an executive presence to be considered for a senior role, especially those, Dr. Bonnie, at the C-suite. So it boils down to these attributes, which would be having gravitas, showing strong communication skills, having a good level of maturity, being decisive, as I explained earlier, having integrity, emotional quotient, and respect for others inside and outside the organization at all levels. I think that the word you just used, executive presence, sometimes is a term that we don't get really clear on what that looks like. I like what you said about the emotional intelligence, the emotional quotient, because if I get upset every time somebody gives me feedback, I'm probably not ready for that level up. Because people are going to give me feedback, some I like, some I don't. My staff aren't always going to like me. How do I communicate when I'm in a big public space? Can I communicate in public in a big organizational meeting, or am I the expert in what I'm talking about, number one, but do I also, like soccer, pass the ball to the person who knows the most about it? I shouldn't know the details of everything like you were just talking about. I hire people that are smarter than me to be able to give that. So am I able to be that overall strategic leader, even in presentations and let the other people speak up, so that together we look the best? So that communication, emotional intelligence, and then there's something to be said about, and I know whoever's listening to this podcast, especially if they are probably, I have a son that's 32, so probably 32 and under, are rolling their eyes at this. But it's how do they dress? I read something about executive presence a couple days ago that said, don't let your appearance take away from the message that you're trying to give. So I think as you move up that corporate ladder, but I think it's thinking about how do you make your appearance not take away from your message? So Google probably doesn't dress the same as Wall Street. Correct. Show up, but show up ready and have some integrity as to how you show up and how you look, not like you just rolled out of bed. And it doesn't show well when your staff or colleagues are dressed up and ready to roll and the individual shows up in a wrinkled blouse or shirt and their hair is disheveled. That does not show executive presence. But also, you did hit on the maturity part. It doesn't matter if you're in your late 20s, your 30s, or your 40s. Having a good level of maturity, being able to wrap your arms around and lean into feedback that's being given to you, whether you appreciate it or not, is just taking it as feedback as it comes in. It is what it is. Not taking it personally, and I see that that does happen, and it does not look well at that senior executive level when someone is pouting. It's not about them. It's about the business. It's about carrying the people forward and the organization's goals. Besides the coach advising and guiding the professional to scale their skills, what's the responsibility of the organization to encourage self-development? How does the company benefit from it? Well, you end up with a full, ready pipeline. So I think of, almost want to be like, we have a pipe that burst here a couple of days ago, flooded our basement. If I think of it like that, although that's bad and plumbing, it would be good in an organization if their pipeline is bursting with candidates that are ready to go. An organization's job is to have a good, what one of my organizations used to say, a good hit-by-the-bus program. In other words, if tomorrow I can't come in and I'm the CNO or I'm the COO or the CEO, someone is ready to step into that place. It's the organization's responsibility to have people practice, and I know you can't see my fingers, but practice some of those things. When the COO is off, who is taking care of things and taking on some of those big responsibilities? So I think it's the organization's responsibility to get people prepared so that when it's time to move folks up, there is a ready pipeline bursting with candidates that are ready to go in there. So also that makes it a good, not just challenge, but there's folks that are excited about, I'm ready to take that next position. How have you prepared them for their next role? And, oh, by the way, have you had the conversation with them about the next role? And, oh, by the way, do you know where they want to be? It's really important for leadership to have their one-on-ones, not just talking about goal preparation, what's been done, what's been achieved, what the setbacks are, but it's also equally as important to talk to their stakeholders individually about their goals and their personal roadmap and, yes, aspirations. I've had people literally stop me in the hallway when I'm in these organizations to stop and talk to me to let me know that they're looking forward to moving on. And I'm like, what? You've been doing so well. You've been with this organization. My God, you're key and instrumental in these areas. Does your boss know? Have you talked to your leader? It's like, no, I didn't. He or she just never asked me, and we didn't have that conversation. It's not just their leader's responsibility. It's a two-way road. So it's also their responsibility as the employer to talk to their leader and say, hey, these are my plans. This is what I'm looking at. Your performance development is not your organization's responsibility. Right. I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth because I'm also saying leaders should be finding out what their employees or their leaders want to do when they grow up. Absolutely. It's a two-way road. Right. But I think you've got to take the bull by the horns and say, when I grow up, I want to be. Shelley Archambault in Unapologetically Ambitious talks about that. You've read the book. It talks about how you should come in knowing what you want to be and trying out different things so you can be ready for that next position but also speaking up to get ready for that position. And then the third thing she says, if you're not being guided into that, you're not getting what you want, then you need to start looking elsewhere because maybe you're not meant to stay in one organization for 10, 15 years like our parents used to do. Right. Over the years, I've had clients who reach out, need help to further their career trajectory, develop additional skills, or they've hit some barriers around growth or because they need a different lens to see a new path to opportunity and possibilities. How do you begin working with individuals to help them advance their skills and prepare for future promotion? What does that roadmap look like? Give some examples. Well, we have at Exceeding the Mark a methodology we go through. So we start with your values because I think you can't do anything without looking at what your values are. We look at your values, walk through them, and have you prioritize them. We also go through what are some examples to make sure are you living according to that. Then we do an assessment to find out where do you want to be versus where are you right now. For this one organization, I said, here's the leadership skills that you need, like you and I were talking about before. What does your communication look like? What do your relationships look like with others in the organization? Your emotional intelligence so we can do some EQ tests. Your financial acumen. So we go through some specific skills and do an assessment of where are you. Then the next part is, okay, where do you want to focus on this? And, oh, by the way, before we get deep into this, what do you want to be when you grow up? Now, let's do the gap in these assessments. Then we're going to focus on one area at a time for you to improve on, and we're using as a basis feedback that we've gotten from your boss and from your peers to measure how are you getting there and how well are you doing. So one of the questions I like to ask folks a lot, I have so many leaders that come forward saying, my self-confidence is just so tiny. I feel like I'm not ready. I'm scared about doing this and I'm afraid to do that. So I ask a question in the beginning, and it's not going to sound super professional, but it gets the job done, on a scale of one to ten with one being is I suck at self-confidence and ten is I'm amazing and can teach others. Where do you feel you are? And we do that measurement again throughout. So we have some objective measures like the assessments, but then we also have some subjective ones where we can measure and see where they are. So this takes coaching. A one-on-one can take nine to 12 months. I have someone that really went through all that, and that year, the end of the year, she was promoted. So it's just specific steps to get there, and then we're looking at how do you maintain and how do you be ready for expanding your scope. So I have very specific methodology. Beyond the skills development, now that they've gone through this and they've been promoted, what would you say are some crucial steps the leader needs to take in the first 90 days within their new role? Oh, I love that question. One is asking your boss and other leaders, finish this sentence for me. In 90 days, I will be successful if. And I love writing those down because you'll find some consistencies, some themes throughout there. The next one is not making changes early on. Do some question asking. Start building relationships. Find out how did we get from where we were before to where we are now. If you're coming from the outside, many times you've been brought in because there are some issues. So finding out early on what are the issues, what worked before and what didn't, what would it look like for me to be successful. And then meeting with people. I can't tell you how important that relationship piece is. Relationships to me is the biggest part in those first 90 days. And asking other people what does success look like to you, right before the end of that 90 days, going back and checking. So here's what you said I should know. Here's what you said I should do. So you want to make sure in that 90 days, you're going to want to make sure you understand the difference in organizations that are big and organizations that are small and what's the difference. When I was able to come back and say I knew that, or when I've been able to coach my clients to come back and say they did that, that's when they're successful. Absolutely. Now that we're talking about success and areas that whether you're an executive or senior leader, looking at a new role, or you've maybe even moved into a new organization, those first 90 days are crucial. But let's talk about some roadblocks. So at times I'm hired directly by the organization to work with their leadership to mitigate conflict, legal implications. This can be very uncomfortable for individual leaders. They don't want to be there and they don't feel that it's necessary to work with someone like you or I as a trusted advisor. So they will make every attempt to prevent the coaching relationship from moving forward. Talk about some setbacks you've encountered with coaching leaders. Give an example of a real-world experience where you combated a difficult coaching moment. How did you manage it? I hate those. But then I have to put on my big girl pants and do what we were told in high school, gird up my loins and deal with it. I met a president recently who there would often be times that they had to cancel or, you know, we had something else going on, I need to cancel, I need to cancel. And so I had to have the conversation that said, I've been working with other senior leaders in other organizations that are growing, that have the same, you know, family issues, and somehow they are able to come to their coaching session. Or when they aren't able to come, when I give some options of other times, they reschedule. I don't see that happening here, and I want to make sure I'm providing value and I'm not wasting your time and your organization isn't wasting the money to pay me. Tell me what's getting in the way. What can I do differently? Are you getting the value out of this that you need? So I think that opened the door for that person to say, you know, they could say, well, I don't like you. I don't like the coaching. I don't feel like I'm getting anything out of it. So it really opened it wide, and I had to be comfortable with the silence. I believe in addressing the pink elephant in the room, that I'm just going to say it. The worst they can do is say I don't want to talk to you anymore. So I just right out said it. It doesn't seem like I'm providing the value that you want because we've seen a lot of misses. So I think you have to call it out if they don't want to be there. You know, lesson learned. I should have done that that first time with the one who they fired me because I knew early on she didn't want to be there, and I knew she was being pushed into it. So I think you have to call it out. Yeah, 100%. Coaching is not for everyone. There needs to be synergy and alignment between the individual that wants the coaching or needs the coaching and the coach themselves. I really believe in that chemistry. You know, if there's misalignment, if there's lack of synergy, it's not going to work. It's human-to-human contact, and, you know, you need to find an executive coach who has the experience but also has the mindset to work specifically with the individual. Now that we've talked about, you know, the downside, leaning into the first 90 days, the skill sets, the superpowers that both the executive and senior leaders need, what advice do you give our listeners who are considering working with a coach for the first time? What's the benefits and the value for them and the organization? I think it's very important when somebody is looking for a coach, you should look for somebody that is an experienced coach and look for somebody that when you talk to, the conversation flows. I also think it's important to have someone who explains what coaching is to you. Early on, one of my conversations is, let me explain the difference between coaching, counseling, consulting, and mentoring. So really somebody that will explain that so you both are on the same page. And then really just getting someone who can help you build those skills where you know in six months, if you were here, then you're going to be over here. There I go using my hands again on a podcast. So if you're at level one, then you can get to level 12, and then we can get to level 24. So you're really wanting somebody who's specific and is able to talk through what do you want to accomplish, let's accomplish it together. Here's what I tell people who come to me for coaching. I am your trusted, confident, objective, accountability buddy. So I'm here to make sure that the goals you say you're setting, you are able to meet them and that I can ring you in if we start getting too far off board. To piggyback on that, coaches are trusted advisors. So everything that is said here stays here. A coach is committed to, you know, there's a high standard of ethics when we're coaches. We do everything in our power as professional coaches and advisors to give the best feedback, advice, coaching as possible to help these professionals develop and to move forward with whatever objectives they have. It's also our job when they're looking for executive coaches, make sure that the individual is completely transparent. The executive coach knows, can articulate what that coaching process is going to look like. Here's what we do in the initial stages. This is what you have to look forward to in the first three months, the next six months, the next 12 months as you progress. Here's what happens, you know, in between the ability to articulate specifically what that coaching program is going to mean to the individual that is looking for development or just a trusted advisor as they're moving through the organization's goal. Dr. Bonnie, thank you. This was exceptional. There are outstanding experts like yourself who really move the dial for these professionals at every level. So thank you again, Dr. Bonnie, for your advice and for your teachable moment around professional coaching. Thank you, Laura. It was my pleasure. Now if we could just put the hands where people can see them, we will be okay with all my hand movements. To learn more about Dr. Bonnie Wilson, log on to our website at exceedingthemark.com. That's X as in X-ray, C as in Charlie, E-E-D-I-N-G, themark.com. That's it for this episode of Coach Anomaly Presents Podcast. If you're interested in being a guest or you're a subject matter expert, please go to my website, www.epiphanyconsultingsolutions.com and submit your request on the Let's Chat link. You can also find me on LinkedIn under Laura Perez Earhart or my website, epiphanyconsultingsolutions. We hope the content and conversation will give sparks of inspiration. If you love and learn from the show, pay it forward and share my podcast with your colleagues and friends. I'm Laura Perez Earhart. Until next time, stay safe and live well. End