Jack Interviews Ann Chipman

Ben Chiffman visits and discusses the history of the Kidd and Jackson family. Will Patton helped George Kidd come to Utah to marry Maude. George came to Utah and met the family. Will fell in love with Maude. The family lived with the Jacksons before moving to their own house. Grandma Kit died soon after arriving in Utah. The family moved to Idaho and Cora married Dave King. Aunt Maud and Uncle Will moved to Moore. George and Minnie got married four years after the family arrived in Utah. Mother was sickly and hardworking. She didn't attend church much. She was quiet and gentle. She recited poetry and was involved in church programs. She didn't like Amos but was friends with George. Sunday, June 17th, 1979, Ben Chiffman is visiting, and we are just reminiscing on some of the history of the Kidd and the Jackson family. And Ann, you were telling me a little of how the Kidd family finally got invited out to Utah and indicated that it came about a bit by Will Patton. My brother Allen was on a mission in Tennessee, and he became a missionary companion with Will Patton. And Will Patton had been to the Kidd's home and knew that George wanted to come. George had joined the church and had wanted to come to Utah, but he had no place to come. Did Dad join the church in Tennessee or in Alabama? I think he joined the church in Tennessee. I see. And so, Allen thought probably Daddy could use some extra help. So he wrote to Daddy and wanted to know if he could use George on the farm. And so Daddy wrote back and told him yes, to have George come. So George came to the farm, and Daddy went to meet him. You indicated that one of the reasons that Will Patton wanted to get the Kidd family out west here was because of one of the daughters. When he met the daughter, Maude, when he knocked on the door first, she came to the screen door, and she was a beautiful girl. I remember how beautiful she was when she came to Utah. But he fell in love with her on the first sight, decided that she was the one he wanted to marry. So he was very anxious to get them to Utah. And so, in the process of time, when George came to Utah, Daddy met him in Hiram. Of course, when he got off the train, he had a friend with him. His name was Horace. Oh, Bobby, I've forgotten what his last name was. It was a cold fall day when he came, a cold winter day. I really don't know just what time of year, but it was really cold. And, of course, I had two sisters at home. And they were very anxious and watching Daddy driving up the lane. And this young man, Libby, and... And you had two sisters, they were? Libby, Libby, and Libby. And so when they stopped up to the yard, and Daddy got out to unharness the horses, the two young men got out of the body. One, he pitched in to help Daddy unharness the horses, and the other stood around with his hands in his pocket. And, of course, my girls said, well, I'm going to have the one that's helping Daddy. And they kind of figured back and forth which one was going to have George, because George was the one that was helping Daddy. And, of course, it was left up to George to decide which one he wanted. Or whether he won. Or whether he won. But after they had put the horses in to feed and taken care of them, and then they came into the house, Daddy made the boys acquainted with the family. And I think George fell in love with Minnie right almost immediately. But he didn't have a chance. The one I wanted was Horace, because Horace stood around with his hands in his pocket. Shivering. How long did Dad stay there and work with your family? Well, he stayed there until your folks, until his folks came out from Tennessee. And they came that same year, do you know? I really don't, I don't know if it was the same year or the next spring. Or whether it was a year or the next spring. I couldn't tell. I was just a child at the time. And I have no way of knowing, of remembering just how old I was. Do you remember who all came? With the family? There was your grandfather's kid, your grandmother's kid, your Aunt Amy. And then there was Maude and Cora and Willie and Henry and Lawrence and Hobson. And Walter was already out west. And Walter was out west here. And after they had been here a while, I don't know just how long, Walter came and made a visit to them. So we got to meet Walter too. And he visited for several days with them before he had to go back on the job that he was at. And I don't know, it seems to me like he was out in Montana and he came from Montana at the time. But I couldn't say for sure. And the entire family then lived right with your folks for a while before they moved over in the little house to the east. We had three empty rooms upstairs. There were three rooms upstairs. We just turned over to them and made it as far as my parents dropped it. Some of it was on the floor and some on the bedsteads. And Horace didn't stay very long. He got tired of the cold weather that we had. He hit the train to go back to Tennessee. I understood that too. Let's see. I understood that Granddad went back to Tennessee too. It seems to me like, now you mention it, it seems to me like he did. He was very unhappy at first. And he went back. I'm quite sure now you've mentioned it. But he didn't stay very long. He wanted to meet with his family so he came back. Then they rented this little house. Now was that owned by your folks? No. It had been my Uncle Henry Jackson's home. It was east of our home. And I think Jim Facer owned it at the time. But it was an empty house. It was just one big room downstairs and a room upstairs. And they drew curtains. They had a curtain where they could shut off part of the downstairs room for a bedroom. And they made your Grandmother a bedroom by putting a curtain. And she wasn't well. She was sick. And she stayed in bed most of the time. Now that was my great-grandmother. That was your great-grandmother. And we just called her Grandmother Kit. And the girls, Cora and Maude, Willie, my sister-in-law, and Minnie and Libby, they used to get together and do quite a bit of singing. And they used to sing church songs. And they were out there one day singing. And she said, if you'll just draw the curtain. And after getting that rich song, she asked them to sing. But it was one such a killer song. She wanted them to sing. And she says, by the time we finish that song, I'll be dead. And she was. They just pulled the curtain and sang that song. And when they left, she was gone. And then she died. Now this was Grandma Rebecca Lomas Kit. And she had separated from her husband. And she came out with the family alone and died in, oh, a few weeks or months after they got here. I don't remember just how long it was. But it was. I'm sure it was more than five days because they had to get this house and had to get it cleaned up and get it fixed and get furniture in that and get moved in. And she's buried in the Avon Cemetery? Yes. Now how long did the folks live in that little rented house? Do you recall that? No, I don't recall that. I really don't recall. I know I felt awfully bad when we went to Paradise because I felt like we had found some real true friends when they came. And when they left, I just felt like they had moved out of our lives. But we just did back and forth. We had to go to Paradise for our groceries and things. Now, were you in the same ward then or were there two wards? No, there was the Avon Ward in Paradise. And then, of course, it wasn't too long after that, after they moved to Paradise, that Patton came. He and Bob were married. And then Cora, after they moved to Idaho, Cora married. But she died in childbirth. So they must not have lived in Paradise very long. Not too long. Not too long. And that would probably have been the second summer that they were out here that they moved to Idaho. Could have been. Did Dad stay with them when they were living there in Avon? And also, did he move into Paradise? Well, I think by the time they moved to Paradise, I think he and Minnie were married. Oh, really? And he was still helping Daddy on the farm. Oh. I know I had one letter that Dad had written to Mother. And he was at that time herding sheep, I thought, in California or somewhere else. So I kind of got the impression it had been quite a while from the time that they came out before they got married. Well, it could have been, like I say, I was just a youngster. So it really appears then from the records here that they must have been out here about four years before he and Mother got married. Oh, wow. So they were married on the 2nd of January, 1913. And that would be just about four years. So you don't remember much about their courtship days then or how long they were there? No, I don't. I don't. I don't know when the folks went to Idaho. I don't either. They moved out to Moore. As you remember, though, Cora married after they went to Idaho. Yes, it seems to me like she did. To Dave King. And she died in 1913, but they were married in 1911. I don't know where she met him or anything like that. Well, I know that Dave King and all of them were up in Idaho together in Moore. She died in Moore. And that's where the family had gone to home stay. That's where Maud and Patton moved to. Oh, is it? Now, Aunt Maud and Uncle Will Patton, she married that same year in December of 1909. That's why they would have been living right there in Avon. Same year that Grandma Avon was born. Well, it would probably have been Avon. At least if they stayed there over the winter. Because they arrived in the spring of 1909, and they got married in December of 1909. It doesn't say where she died, but I know that that's where Maud died. Oh, that's what I mean, Maud. Yeah. That's where Maud died. Yes. Oh, wait a minute. That's where Cora died. Maybe Maud. I think Maud died there, too. Maud died there, too. It seems to me like she did. Well, where did Aunt Maud die of? Oh, wait a minute. Maud didn't die until 1930. I remember when Aunt Maud died. You do? Mm-hmm. I don't know where they lived then, but I was seven years old when she died. Well, I don't know. But Cora, Cora was the one that died earlier than Maud. Mm-hmm. What's your first memories of Mother? Oh, she was sick. She had her night fever. Hmm. Hmm. That's the first time I remember. Was that when she was young? Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. I've made a list of that, Charlie. Her night fever. About how old were you then? I was just a small old man guy at the time. I was awfully sick, and I was just jumping up and down. I can't even get out of bed. You wanted detention. I didn't want to stay in bed. You were preschool, and Mother was how much older than you? I wonder if she was. I don't know. I'm not sure. That would make many about 12 years younger than me. 11. 11 years older than me. So if you were preschool, she could have been a young teenager then when she had a night fever. Did it leave her with any heart problems? Yes. Yes. Was she sickly generally, or did you just recall the skin? Yes. She wasn't what you would call a well-strong child or a young person. She wasn't sick all the time, but then she wasn't strong. What kind of a temperament did she have? Very even. As I remember Mother growing up as a child, she was rather quiet and deferred, you know, gave in to people a lot. I kind of get the impression maybe that... She'd rather be sat down than step on. That's right. And she sometimes let people step on her. Yes. Very even-tempered, nothing loud or very much, but she used to suffer inside a lot. I don't remember Mother being active in the church. She was very self-aware. Was she active as a child? Well... She used to go to church all the time. That's easy as that, because he... He was in the fishery for so many years, and he packed too. I'm sure he's seen the Republican's land, because when I come along, he's seen that. So I'm sure that all of them went to church. What did she take in from all? You don't recall that she held a position in an office or anything? No, I don't. But they got married in the temple, which was... She was in the seminary. Teacher, primary teacher, something like that. I do know that she came to Logan. Back to what they called the teacher's dressmaking course. She didn't attend school very long, but she... I remember Mother, she was, you know, being... Well, pretty... Pretty intimidated, I guess, is the way I'd put it, by the world. I... I remember her as... I remember her as... Being a person who may have been more culturally sensitive than her form... Life and form of... Your father said to us, we've never had a quarrel. We've never quarreled at all. I said, well, George, that isn't your fault that you haven't had a quarrel. It's me. I said, if you'd have either of the later on, I said, there'd have been some good rounds going. Well, I was older, but... Well, I remember Mother used to get very, very exasperated. Because she just... She tried to write a note on the column, but I... I think she had a tough life. And... She definitely did. And I remember her as being such a hard worker. And carrying the water out of the ditch, and feeding it in that big kettle. And then... How did it get out to the washing machine? How did it get into the washing machine? And then going out and digging the lake? That's the cop who picked the washing machine. It was an old Maytag, and it would never work. Well, I just remember her as being almost a... A 98-pound slave. Well... When I... When... As George said, they never had any row on, and I said that. We were... Wallace and I and Earl was up there. And your mother was trying to get ready to come down to Logan. Seeing that her mother had been ill. Had a lot of stroke. And she was coming down to see her mother. Very melancholy there. So many things she had to do before she could leave. She had to mix bread. She had to cook this. She had to leave that cooked. She had to have washing and ironing done and everything. Of course, Wallace was there. And George, he sat out under the trees. Visiting with Wallace. Granny doing all these things. And Earl was off fishing. And I don't know where I turned once. But on top of it all, Granny had to go out and dig potatoes. To have some potato strew. So they could have corn and other potatoes. And I went out. And on top of that she was chopping wood. And I went out and I told George. I said, You know how many's out there chopping wood on top of all the else she's doing? I said, Why don't you go out and chop some wood for her instead of sitting here talking? I said, Both you and Wallace ought to get a match. You go out there and chop a pile of wood. And he said, You've got to kind of got your eye on it. And he said, You've got to kind of got your eye on it, haven't you? And I said, Yes I have. And then he went on to tell me that He and Granny had never had any words. And I said, Well it's not your fault that you haven't. I said, It's Granny's fault that you haven't. I said, If you'd have married either of the later I, There would have been a whole lot. There would have been plenty going on. But it was just true to his condition. Yeah. Southern. Yeah. Southern men. Your grandmother was the same way. Your grandmother was the same way. She was a workhorse. She was a workhorse. Yeah. And that's the memory I have of Mother. I don't know that I ever recall her life being in joy. Well that's the southern tradition. Women doing the work, and the men sitting around smoking. I guess there's a life in the south. And that tradition's still in operation. Maybe it's too late. I don't think I've heard of it. That's what I was saying. Yeah. That's what I was saying. You'd sit in a room sitting around smoking their pipes and drinking their whatever it was they drank. And the women all out working. That's the old Hebrew way. The old Hebrew said that the warriors watched for the distant hills for marauders and invaders. And the women had to do the work because they were not warriors. Yeah. But in the signal when the warning came the women would run in and the men would go to battle. But the men didn't do the work. They saved their strength for battle. I like that. When did they stay at home? They stayed with us for a while. After they were married. So was this in Idaho? You went out to Drummond or Farnam or wherever they lived? I went out. To the rock house? Yeah. They were living in the rock house with their mother and dad at the little house that their family used to live in. And they were going to the dance. Mary'sville. Mary'sville not too far away from there. It was in the wintertime they were going to the site. And they asked me to go in. Your mother showed me around. She says, where do you go? Let me tell you this. They aren't good boys. It's awful for a mother to say that. But she says, take care of yourselves. She says, they aren't good boys. Now that's awful for a mother to say. Yes, it is. But they weren't. No, they weren't. But they were all from Hatton City. We had a good time. We danced until about 3 o'clock in the morning. And they all pulled the tables out. And everybody had brought food and drink and everything. We had dinner, supper, whatever you want to call it. We all ate. Then we danced for another hour and then we got home. The energy of youth, huh? Yeah. And you drove all the way back out to the rock house from Mary'sville? Yeah. That's quite a haul. Yeah. There's a party behind me. I'm sure it would be if you didn't stand in line. Your mother's got to worry. Yes. Do you recall whether she went to church there or not when they were married? Whether, you don't care, right? Mother went? No, whether mother went. Yeah. Not when I was up there. Your dad always walked. And went along. Sure. And shook the boy's hand, or his hand. And took my mother by the hand. You know, this is something that puzzles me. My memories of going to church or with dad as a little child didn't fall on me, did it? Walking. Holding his hand. I never remember mother going to church. She's the president of the church. Well, she had this house dresses, vegan house dresses. Well, I think that's all anybody had in the farm. So, I don't... She had gone to church, but not when I was there. I'm trying to reconstruct my memories, my childhood, and I'm having a hard time, you know, putting mother into the picture. I remember her as a gentle soul that felt like the boys pushed her around and didn't really treat her the way they ought to. You know? And I just can't quite make an identification of who she was and what she stood for. I never recall hearing her testimony. She was just a good woman who worked her heart out. Yeah, I know that Fern and Earl, before her, it seems to me that more than one note tells me is that that she used to read a lot and memorize poetry. Oh, poetry. When she was home, she was always reciting anything that they had in the ward and then they always had a recitation and a reading to give. She was very apt at that. Very good at it. You know, I could be wrong, but this seems to me the challenge as a temperament that makes me think of mother a great deal. And in some respects, I think Lillian, temperament-wise, reminds me of my mother because she's not noisy or loud. She's quiet and reserved. And she knew I couldn't get a fight out of her. She would collapse and give in. She doesn't feel any better about it than I think mother used to. At home when she was a girl, every program and everything they had in the ward, she was on the program. And she sang. Not that I know of. But I remember. Well, they did. Allie and her only. Uh-huh. And George, you're on charge. Uh-huh. He used to stay with me. Yeah. Still with him. Where does he live? He lives in 811. It's right around the corner. He used to be at our house, just like... Just like it was a second home for him. That was then before after dad came molesting for her. Before, I think. Uh-huh. Uh, no. Rennie sure didn't like to go with Amos. He didn't want to go. Because Rennie used to go to the dances with him, you know. So then... Had a good time, Rennie, together. She must have really not liked him. Huh? I said, she really must not have liked him. No, she didn't like him. No, she just... couldn't stand him. Did she like George, too? I think we were just friends. Like a big brother and a friend. He and... He and Roy, and Allie, and Lance, George, they... They were together enough, but not... Like I said, I don't know. Let's just say they're probably fine.