ep 55 audio

The Ontario legislature is back in session after a six-month break. Premier Doug Ford has faced controversy for appointing two of his former staff members to a committee that selects judges. This move has been criticized as patronage and interfering with the independence of the judiciary. Richard Brennan, a retired political journalist, argues that while it is not uncommon for governments to appoint people to committees, Ford has taken it too far by appointing like-minded individuals. He believes that the process of appointing judges should be impartial and based on qualifications, not political alignment. Ford's actions are seen as an attempt to fast-track the appointment of judges who align with his views. Critics argue that judges should not be chosen based on their willingness to be tough on crime, but rather on their ability to interpret and apply the law fairly. Ford's lack of understanding of the judicial system and his belief that he can do whatever he wants as premier are conc welcome to the bill kelly podcast critical discussions in critical times here's your host bill kelly they could have you with us again this is the bill kelly podcast critical discussions for our critical times i'm your host bill kelly good to have you with us uh... as uh... we mentioned uh... program just a couple of days ago the ontario legislature is back to work after taking about six months off for the christmas break but anyway they're back at it and it didn't take uh... pretty good for too long to step in at once again with uh... some rather controversial comments and this was well but i guess it was a book policy when you think about it uh... basically saying that uh... he uh... wants to appoint judges who are like minded with him and to that end he's actually appointed two of his former staff members under this committee winner who are going to select judges uh... and we all know of course that we don't have enough judges there's a huge huge backlog there of court cases because not enough judges have been appointed so that's the need uh... the way in which he's doing it again it seems to be uh... ruffling a lot of feathers shall we say and there's some people are suggesting patronage and some of the other words getting tossed around uh... our next guest has some strong thoughts on that too he is richard brennan uh... retired political journalist who covered queens park and parliament hill for the toronto star for many many years badger great to have you back with us again uh... these guys are back to work as i mentioned in my preamble here didn't take doug for too long to get into this now he's been known as you talked about and written about for so many years uh... it's not unusual for a politician especially a premier to make a statement off the cuff as he did because this was a presser it had nothing to do with the subject and maybe backtrack the next day and say oh i don't know what i meant to say but he's doubled down on this well just before you get too far into this i'll just uh... tell your listeners that governments appointing people to committees is not new by any stretch they you know the liberals did it the NDP did it they they put their you know their own people their their loyal loyal uh... followers on committees of one sort or another there's a big but there i'd say he's gone to bridge too far with this you know uh... the line that got me the most bill we got elected to get like-minded people in appointments no you weren't no you weren't elected to that at all uh... you're elected to look after health care social programs education and all the things that make ontario a great place to live not to appoint so-called like-minded people to committees so they will come up with uh... like-minded judges and well i'd hate to see the judge that was like-minded to uh... to doug ford quite frankly but uh... it's just it's you know it's it's just another uh... he's a bull in a china shop he's not not subtle at all this wasn't it wasn't good enough to appoint you know some of his favorites to a committee he has to make it uh... you know his you know a senior former senior person his uh... advisor to uh... chair of the committee that appoints judges and and he comes out and says well look at that that you know we want judges to hang them high it's not that simple let's peel back the curtain for just a little bit and expose the wizard pulling the levers here uh... you've covered politics for many many years i've covered politics for many many years god i was in politics it's it's not unusual and quite frankly it's it's almost expected that when a government gets elected whether it's conservative or a liberal government either federally or provincially uh... he asked oftentimes the judicial appointments oftentimes include people of that same political stripe uh... it's you know the liberals have done it federally the liberals have done it here too but this is still a process and and i guess uh... the foundation for all of this richard is there's supposed to be a separation between the judiciary and the legislative branch of our government and basically ford is saying no there isn't i'm king of the hill sounds an awful lot like the guy who's running for president again down the south of the border i get to make all the decisions i get to decide who's going to be there that's not the way the system's supposed to work yeah it's it's not the states we don't elect our judges and you know and the politicians don't get to appoint them directly you know they can construct a committee of course but that's still supposed to be uh... arm's length from the government and he's saying well no it's not going to be arm's length i'm i'm going to you know my words i'm going to taint this process i'm going to get judges who are like minded well that is not the way to run a government that's not the way to run a judiciary it's simply and totally unacceptable again it's not like you pointed out bill it's not unusual for people of you know certain political stripes to get appointed committees and all that but he's he's making a direct order you know or indirect we want judges you appoint judges who i think are law and order guys and girls and i want them to be judges not some of these bleeding hearts as he would often refer to them that's not right that's not the way you know the system works well a couple of things about this and i don't personally know a whole lot about law my wife's a lawyer and i've known over the years uh... quite a few lawyers and quite a few lawyers who have advanced up to the judicial side or justices of peace whatever the case might be and the process as you know is rather arduous i mean you have to apply there's a screening process uh... you know you may get four hundred people apply for it they'll weed that down to maybe twenty or thirty and then you go before a committee a panel and uh... you get grilled uh... and they just decide okay who do we think is qualified who checks all those boxes and then that committee will make their recommendations to the attorney general who will make the appointments that's in a nutshell that's sort of how the process works he's basically saying no no no no i'll pick them right now the committee here is really just going to be a rubber stamp you know i've got these guys they're puppets on a string to me and these are the ones that i want here and it reminded me as soon as i saw this story it reminded me of the ron taverner thing who was his friend who of course was a metro toronto still is a metro toronto police officer uh... just after four got elected the first time just to remind people he wanted taverner to be his OPP commissioner uh... and just wanted to do a total end run around the process uh... when they did do some evaluation of mister taverner's qualifications they said sorry he doesn't meet the standard he said we'll change the standards then i mean that's that's his mindset and i thought okay he was a rookie premier he's made mistakes he's doing the same thing now well bill just to uh... to be fair here for uh... i got it i got it uh... perfectly honest i was after i retired i was appointed to the justice of the peace appointments advisory committee and i sat on there for a few years and i'll tell you in that it's very similar to the judges it's very arduous and my i just hope that at all you know my heart of hearts the people other people that sit on those committees you know uh... push back and say no you're not going to get you know uh... judge potential A just because they're a hang em high judge we want somebody who's qualified it is it is an arduous process and i think it's a process hopefully that will win the day rather than his uh... directive and again it's it's i know some people are just getting upset about this and say well there he is stacking the deck uh... with his own people and and and yeah we might some people may find that abhorrent but it's it's it's basically ruining the process uh... if somebody goes through the process and and and they i'm like minded to Doug Ford and i agree with your assessment god help us if all the judges were like minded like Doug Ford uh... that's fine but that you can at least sit back and say well they went through the process and and and they they made the qualifications and they were recommended to the attorney general but this this again is just him trying to fast track all this stuff uh... and it also and you know because you sat on this committee uh... for super justices of the peace anyway uh... Ford seems to have a a total lack of knowledge of how the system works alright hang em high judges judges don't make the laws in this province uh... you know and and they have to adjudicate over there are lawyers there are crown attorneys there's a whole process involved in this and and to suggest that judges are letting people out and judges are bleeding hearts is a total misrepresentation of how the system works well he he doesn't understand what what he doesn't understand you could fill a dump truck uh... that's that's the problem we have we have a guy here who's running the who is not familiar with with how the problems run he was you know he by a stroke of luck he became premier and then premier again he doesn't understand he doesn't understand education he doesn't understand health care it's just he's a bull trying to shop he looks straight ahead and says here's what i want he figures a majority government has afforded him the opportunity to do whatever the hell he likes that's that's the short of it and if he wants hang him high judges I'm going to have him you know I want justice of the peace that will you know throw you know throw everybody in jail until their case is heard uh... you know it's just that's just the way it is just as a justice of the peace let me explain this for a second I know you know this and I know a lot of people know it but you know we always say and myself included you know why did that guy get bail whether it's a judge give it to him or justice of the peace well you can't remove somebody's freedom at the snap of a finger that's against the constitution you know they they for the protection of the public they'll rule that you know this person or that person should sit in jail for a while until their case is heard but the point is there's much thought put into that decision before it's made it's just not made offhand because the J.P. or the judge is a hang him high no it's he has to follow the rules and in the end let's hope like I say the procedure and the rules will win the day not his uh... political rantings about the judicial system well and again I think it's a rather simplistic point of view for him to simply say I'll appoint all these judges like minded to him and that's going to fix the judicial system it's not uh... there are problems with crown attorneys we don't have enough people there as you say cases sometimes take over a year uh... to come before a judge uh... you know is is that individual who's charged and it might not even be a major offense but I mean it's certainly a criminal offense uh... do they have to rot in jail for a year before they even get their trial before they even appear before a judge it's just first of all we already know that the federal government under Stephen Harper tried to institute similar situations uh... back in the in the mid two thousands and the Supreme Court of Canada tossed a lot of that stuff out and said you can't do that it's unconstitutional exactly and again which is why that separation between the judicial and legislative branch has to be made strong uh... you can't have any bleeding from one end to the other uh... because that's not the way the system is supposed to work again that's the way he thinks it works and should work and again uh... he doesn't I don't think he understands how the judicial system works nor does he care to understand he figures that you know anybody that commits a crime or or suggested that they commit a crime or accused of committing a crime uh... should rot in jail well that's not the way it is those people in you know uh... regardless of what they've done they're not they're not found guilty of anything there's guys in uh... in you know Toronto South Detention Center who have not been convicted of anything yet because they're just they're doing dead time and that's what the uh... J.P.'s and the courts are trying to avoid to the best of their ability is just sending people into jail no particular reason just because Doug Ford wants them there to sit in jail when they haven't been convicted of anything so again it's so simplistic to suggest that these judges he's going to have these judges appointed or J.P.'s appointed and they're going to lay down the law well it doesn't work that way and somebody should sit down Mr. Ford and try to you know give him a one-on-one if you will on how the judicial system works and I know you know he's he's hearing the stories about gunfire and you know there's another story in Toronto four or five people got shot last night in a Toronto neighborhood uh... and invariably you're going to say well somebody was out on bail or somebody's a repeat offender uh... changing the justices or the judges in this particular case is maybe part of the solution but it's not the solution there's a lot more going on here and and I'm not suggesting by the way because I know people are going to listen to this conversation uh... on the podcast, bleeding hearts again, no it's not it at all it's it there you have to apply the law but you also have to to use common sense in that application of the law you can't just say this is what the law says bingo I mean there are there are going to be variations and some shades of gray uh... and crown attorneys will tell you that as well and I think maybe one of the best examples of the fact that I think Ford's heading down the wrong road here is the outcry and there has been a huge outcry about this statement is coming not just from defense attorneys but from crown attorneys as well they're saying no no no no no no that's not how you do things that's only going to make matters worse uh... and again it's a classic example of he's he has not consulted with the people that work in the system uh... when he makes recommendations like this yeah but Bill he said he was elected to get like-minded people in employment I just I find that quote so stunningly unbelievable that he thinks he was elected to gerrymander the judicial system it is quite appalling quite frankly I don't know if the man is thinking when he says this stuff or he just is knee-jerk and he was or the Toronto Star exposed the fact that these senior people uh... from his government were sitting on the committee and then he had to he had to respond to it but to think that he actually believes that he can paint the system to whatever which way he wants it to go is uh... it's flabbergasting basically I just I don't get it but again it's not doesn't surprise me the two people that we're talking about here that the Star exposed they're great researchers Robert Benzie and the other staff there that covered provincial politics for the Star uh... one of them I think is one of Ford's I guess his former chief of staff the other guy was and I'm trying to think of the language now but essentially he was the business liaison officer in other words uh... I'm wondering and I'm sure that they're going to do some follow-up investigations into this it sounds as if he was the sort of guy that would deal with developers about proposed developments on highway structures and things like that and that's the thing that's going before the courts right now uh... the RCMP investigation is going on right now and as one of the uh... the pundits opined I guess late last week uh... this is a guy that's being investigated for criminal behavior or the RCMP is this really the guy you want to trust to make the justice system right in this province? well I wouldn't think so uh you know but his uh to back up a bit his uh his stock is going up again well and that's what I wanted to segue to that so let's you you mentioned it so let's jump right into that despite all this and I you saw the immediate reaction on social media ah this is the one that's going to take him down well we've been hearing that ever since he got elected he's going up in the polls uh in spite of all this stuff uh he's riding high now I know he's going to look at this and say see I was right about this I I don't know that you can't connect those dots right now but it basically shows what you have talked to us about some months ago here uh during their extended Christmas break uh that basically he's you know his opposite he's running through tall grass there is nobody stopping him with anything he wants to do Marit Stelz is the official leader of the opposition right now uh seems like a nice person she gets up in question period and and and and talks a lot but you don't see that strong opposition that any majority government really should have to make the system work in other words it comes down to a lack of accountability here well and the fact that they're his support that he's getting is eating in the support for the NDP yeah which you got to give your head a scratch on that one but uh well they've worked hard to try and appeal to the working class and uh it looks like it's paying off it's there's a lot riding on uh you know Bonnie Crombie's ability to if when she when she gets into the legislature and and and takes on Doug Ford to try and turn this around if you know I'm not saying she can or can't do it but there has to be some opposition to this guy he just you know he's a bull in a china shop he just figures he can do whatever the hell he wants to do and so to speak you know he gets to uh pedal backwards on a few things which he's done uh I'm I'm just waiting for him to pedal backwards on this one but there's no there's nothing to stop you know that to stop him no no uh guardrails here at all he just he's going down the highway and he's going as fast as he wants to do and he'll do whatever he wants to do and that's to me is not is not democracy that's you know that that's a you know it's it's a parliamentary fiefdom if you will and and he's running it that way and I know there's been you know some accusations about you know Trump's uh bombast you know that that he wants basically to be a dictator and run an autocracy I wouldn't go that far with Ford yet but he has to understand that no matter what your your majority is uh there's still a system and there are still guardrails and there are still rules getting a majority government doesn't mean that the rules don't apply to you anymore and that seems to be what he's suggesting here with some of the stuff he's come up with well I mean just just to change you know change gears a bit here I mean you know they gave a billion dollars to education well that sounds great for three years but again he has starved education and now he's given a billion dollars again here you want I'll do what I want I you know I'll give you as much money or as little money as I want you know if your health care is in a bad system the education system is a bad system again we get back to that because he wasn't elected to gerrymander the judicial system he was elected to look after the various programs again that make Ontario a great place to live not to do the kind of uh you know monkey shine that he's trying to do right now the education announcement earlier this week was I think a classic example of that wasn't it a vote of billion dollars his own panel that he picked to look into this whole situation with education his own panel recommended more than twice that money and yeah they also you know suggested that there should be an increase in tuition so he looks like a hero for saying no I'm not going to increase tuition well the fact that he's not going to increase the tuition makes it even more important that that money should have come forward they're only getting half and half of what but the panel that his own panel recommended so I mean is he helping the system or is he really just paying lip service to it by saying well I tried you know he's he does this with the panels the and he picks his own people he did that with the housing problem and Tim Hudak ran that one a couple of years ago he's done it with other things then he ignores all their recommendations well let me ask you this Bill you think I know how I feel about it uh do you think he values education I don't know uh maybe not to the extent that he should and I'm I know okay I know he's you know didn't go very far into the system did he graduate high school I know he went to grade 12. I took one year in college I'm not a couple of weeks in college according to somebody that was there at the same time but be that as it might that's not to belittle the fact that he didn't get it it's not that but you know there's lots of people I know that don't have a university or college degree that value education excellent yes and I'm not so sure that he gets it and that's troubling well I don't I mean let's face it with this government any provincial government but especially here in Ontario uh especially at the two biggest price tags are education and health care uh and he has no expertise in either one of them um you know his claim to fame of course is the business that his father ran and started and and he's taken that over and I'm not going to pass judgment on that but if you don't know everything or a lot at least lean on people to do and he's not listening to the advice from those people I mean like you say he made the he puts together these committees to advise them and then completely ignores them yeah well I did my you know civic duty I you know I'm I'm a man of the people I appointed the committee well you listen to their recommendations then but you know getting back to the judges you know you've got to you know you've got to really sit back and take notice when when the legal community which knows far more about the justice system than I do says hold on a second what you're doing is wrong so I think you know if that if I was a premier I would say maybe maybe I you know I've gone a bit too far on this one but he won't I mean these these are people of you know legal minds are saying that you're wrong what you're doing is wrong you can't take the judicial system and he's saying well well I can now what is that is that the kind of leadership and that we that we need right now I and well whether we like it or not we got it but he's got to he's got to I think at some point somebody has to sit down and in a rational way and say you know what we can't we can't do this we can't go ahead with this like-minded business you're talking about sure we can have our own people on the committee but you can't be going around telling people that you unless you think the way I do you're not going to become a judge and and that is frightening I yeah the quote was I don't want to appoint anybody who's a liberal or an NDP here well that kind of tells you how narrow-minded he is when he approaches things like this the best possible qualified person for one of those jobs might well be somebody who has liberal tendencies do you say you're not getting the job simply because you you supported a different political party I mean there have been past liberal governments that have have appointed conservative small c conservative lawmakers and lawyers to positions such as this and that's happened at the federal and the provincial level it's it's a matter of picking the best qualified people and and you know true leaders of true politicians will look at stuff like this and simply say okay uh whatever the political stripe is it's not supposed to matter when you're in a judiciary that's that's not supposed to be a factor well that was our point that was certainly our point when we sat on JPAC the address of the peace appointments advisory committee is I didn't give a damn what politics you had I we I judged you on your ability to do the job he or she to do the job again I didn't care if you know and you just look at him you consider all the factors and you say he or she has what it takes and it it takes a lot to become a justice of peace politics in my mind it shouldn't matter but he he's turned it into that which I think is should give us all pause for thought because that is certainly a change in the way that that things are being done in Ontario one concern here is what's going to happen down the road on this I mean if he does you know stick to this and simply say this is the way we're going to do that uh there are going to be challenges there are going to be legal challenges uh court cases that probably should have been expedited are going to get held up in the system and you and I both know because we've talked about this over the years if if the delays are long enough the judge is going to haul the guy back in court and says you're free to go we cannot give you a fair trial in the allotted amount of time and and you know justice delayed is justice denied and we've had people that have been released what we need is a more efficient system not just boom hang them you know throw them in jail and lock you know throw away the key we don't operate like that there are some people that may well deserve that but you know let them go through the process to make that evaluation well you point out bill that he's in the right so he said we're not we're not going to have ndk ndp uh supporters or liberal supporters of judges well right away if you take that view then the pool is even smaller which you know which means even fewer judges available to be picked their lawyers to be picked for judges backlog increases it takes longer because you don't have the numbers to pull from it's it's going to be chaos quite frankly and i don't think he's given a second thought to that or certainly you know taking a a moment in his day to say yeah you know that that okay i said that but you know maybe i just went overboard but he'll never say that he'll never admit that he's wrong well he does but he does it regretfully let's put it that way well it's it's making headlines right now and as we've mentioned the concern here is going to be what happens next and how is the legal system going to respond to this and and what kind of pushback is is going to result from that as well we're going to leave it there for now we're just getting warmed up now into the provincial uh side of things and as just as a postscript i guess to our conversation today uh the next provincial election is not for a long long time and and you know they're riding high in the polls right now and they may still continue to ride high in the polls uh but bonnie crombie's got to start considering a running in a by-election uh there's a seat open i think and she hasn't decided whether or not she wants to throw her hat in the ring there uh but it's getting more and more to the point where she's going to have to get into the bull ring there she wants to make a difference uh and we'll see what happens and what that does to the dynamic in law legislature uh badger always a pleasure to have you on the podcast great conversation today as always uh until next time take care and we'll talk again soon okay thanks a lot see you later you betcha richard brennan retired journalist who covered queen's park for so many years for the toronto star and that's it for this edition of the bill kelly podcast uh spread the word you can catch us anywhere where you get your best podcasts we'll see you next time take care bill kelly podcast brought to you by wizards 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