Who Are Jen and Katherine and Why _Thrive and Shine HR_ (3)

The podcast "Thrive and Shine" is hosted by two certified life coaches with extensive experience in HR. They believe that mental, physical, and emotional health are crucial for success in HR. The hosts aim to inspire women globally to thrive and shine in their careers by sharing their own struggles and successes. In the first episode, they play a get-to-know-you game and discuss their journeys into HR and coaching. Both hosts have experienced burnout in HR and found coaching to be transformative in their lives. They emphasize the power of thoughts and the ability to change one's life through thought work. The hosts hope to provide valuable insights and support to HR professionals who often face burnout. Welcome to our very first episode of Thrive and Shine. We are so happy you're with us this morning. As certified life coaches with 45 years of combined experience, you and I both have experienced the highest of the highs and the lowest of the lows, both personally but also professionally as well. So what we both know to be true is this, our mental health, our physical health, our emotional health are the essential building blocks in order for any of us to thrive and shine in HR. So in a first-of-its-kind podcast, we're going to get real every single week, every single Monday consistently, 10 o'clock Eastern Time, 8 o'clock Mountain Time, 7 o'clock where Jen is right now, Pacific Coast Time, we are going to discuss and share what has really contributed to both of our struggles and our successes throughout our careers. So we just believe that being an example of what's possible, our goal is to inspire women around the globe to really stand tall but also to take the necessary actions to thrive and shine in HR. Thank you so much, Catherine, for kicking us off. That was amazing. So hello, Jen. Good morning. Good morning, Catherine. I could not be more excited right now to be here with you and to be here with you all. And so yeah, thank you so much for that. What we're going to do today on this first episode of Thrive and Shine is we're going to play a little get-to-know-you game, get to know one another and then get to know our why. And I think that's really inspired us to want to be here and do this and what we can look forward to as we kick this thing off. So why don't we get started with some questions while we go down. Oh, it sounds amazing. It sounds amazing. And I just love that you added, I want to know your why. Because I just spent a week down in Telluride, Colorado, with a client infusing the why into performance management. So the fact that you just threw that term out, love it. Let's do it. Let's get to know each other's why. Let's do it. So let's start with just a little bit about you. Who is Catherine Frye? I'd love to learn a little bit about what brought you into HR and then what got you into coaching and how the two have kind of merged. So share a little bit about yourself, Catherine. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Okay. I almost feel like I'm in a job interview, so I'm going to try and not sweat here. So I graduated from undergrad in 1997. And I actually had a job set up with the city and county of Denver. I went to the University of Denver. And a friend of mine said, hey, I'm going to Aspen. Would you like to come up? I'm interviewing with the Ritz-Carlton. Would you like to come up to Aspen? And of all the areas in Colorado I had been to, I had never been to Aspen. So sure enough, I'm like, sure, I'll go with you. Got in the car. Opened the blinds in the morning after we drove up. And I literally fell in love with Aspen. I fell in love with the place. Truly, I'm still very much in love with Aspen. So I marched down to Human Resources and got a job. And maybe just got a job. I quit my job with the city and county of Denver before I even started. Terrible. So I was going to relocate. Started working for the Ritz-Carlton up in Aspen about 10 days after I graduated undergrad. And I was in orientation. And the woman who led the orientation blew my mind. First of all, I couldn't believe she could stand up and talk in front of people. She was so well-spoken. But I just thought how much she cared about the people in the room. She cared about service. I have always been big into volunteers. And she really cared about serving the customers. In that case, you know, the customers of the hotel. And I fell in love with what she was doing. So long story short, six months later, I found a job in Human Resources in Aspen. And I've been in Human Resources ever since. So I spent my first seven years in the health industry. Twelve years with an international design and planning firm. I was based in Aspen, but I supported offices globally. And then I spent my last five years in the 9-to-5 role serving in a municipal role. So I became extremely burned out in HR. Extremely burned out. And I hired a coach. I hired a coach to help me with that burnout. And she quite literally changed my life. And I realized that coaching was imperative. It's a skill. I think for me in HR, I thought I was always a good coach. But there was actually skill and technique to coaching. So I went back to school. I became a coach. And sort of had this side hustle going. And it took off. I have been a full-time coaching consultant for the last year and a half. Gosh, that was a long monologue. Oh, Jen, I can't hear you. Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry. I muted for respect. And then there I was. No, not at all. It's six minutes after the hour. So that was so great. Thank you so much for sharing that. You and I have talked before about how similar our paths are in terms of, like, what brought us into HR and how we then burnt ourselves to the ground. And really, I think how that helped to be a catalyst in terms of our growth and ability to be able to kind of find our way. And so, yeah. What about you? I don't think I know the specifics of your entry into HR and coaching. Yeah. I got into human resources in the year 2000. I moved. I lived in California at the time. So I moved down to Sacramento, California. And at the time, I was completely lost. I was a dropout from college. I, you know, at the time had no idea what I was going to do. So I decided to become, like, a secretary. So I started working as an admin at an office. And at that time, I, again, was just all over the place. But they were starting to bring in benefits. And they handed me just piles and piles of stuff. And they said, Here you go, Jen. We want you to, you know, figure this out. And so in doing that and researching benefits, there was something that sparked in me about, like, having the opportunity to help find things that help people in their roles in the company. And so it was something that then inspired me to go back to school. I got my bachelor's and then went for my master's. And so then I just kind of started uppity up the ladder. And over the next ten years, we then ended up moving up to Oregon. So I now live in southern Oregon. And I found myself burning out as hard as I ever imagined. And to the point where I literally did not think that I could make it in HR, I think I had so much weight on my shoulders. What I thought was weight around what I thought I needed to be, you know, professionally, personally, everything. It was just too much. And so in 2019, I had the opportunity. I was working for Deaf Bros Coffee. So if anyone is familiar with Deaf Bros Coffee, it was the job, I think, that really helped change everything for me. And I had an opportunity to really experience the role of HR in a very different way. For anyone who knows Deaf Bros Coffee, the culture of that organization, it's just different. And they are very teaching-centric. It's very coaching-heavy. But yet, you know, they don't necessarily have the certifications. Yeah, it's in-ground in, like, who they are and how they incorporate, you know, how they first began. And so through that experience, I started to get a little bit of exposure to coaching. And then I had the opportunity to go to a conference down in San Diego where I got to see, oh, my God, it was Simon Sinek, it was Patrick Lencioni, it was several different people. You had me at Simon Sinek. It was transformative because by the end of that conference, I knew exactly my path around coaching. And so then from there, I, you know, really went all in. And at first, I really thought coaching was going to be something that I was going to do and stay in HR. I was like, oh, my gosh, it's going to be amazing. I'm going to be coaching in HR. And then the bug kicked, you know, like something inside of me was like, oh, my gosh. Like, when you start to really learn, you know, when I started to really learn how much in control my thoughts were of, you know, everything I did, everything I felt, everything. And our thoughts are so subconscious, right? Like, this was something that once it started to, like, it really, like, it started to kind of shift in me. And I think that every person who's ever been in coaching has been able to really communicate back to me is this transformative seeing of oneself that happens when you start then applying it towards whatever practice that you have, whether it's teaching, whether it's coaching, whether it's HR. And so that's really what happened. And so then I kind of from there ended up taking off on my own for a while, doing some coaching for a while. But now I'm back in HR and loving it and working, you know, in a role that I'm so passionate about. And so I'm kind of at a place where I'm doing both. And it's absolutely amazing. You know, I personally rolled my eyes at the coaching industry before I understood what coaching was. I thought, oh, my gosh, this unregulated field. The irony was that I was so judgmental. And I think one of the biggest lessons I've learned through coaching and so many things we just think are hardwired into us are actually things we can totally change. And we can do that through thought work. Like you were saying, it just is mind-blowing when you start to understand it, when you start to apply it, and then you start to master. Just literally, you know, it's like, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, and I'm going to do that, and I'm going to do that. So it's a master. Just literally being able to change your life through changing your thoughts. It is wild. It's wild. And I think that that is such an essential thing for women in HR because all we hear about when we read HR magazines is how burned out HR professionals are. You and I were both super burned out. I think this is why you and I wanted to do this podcast together because we're on the other side of it. We've developed the skills to get us over that hump of burnout. And it's like once you experience it, you want every single woman in HR to experience it. Yeah. And once you start to figure out the secrets, right, like once you start to figure out what it really is, then from there, there's no going back. You know, there's no kind of turning back from that. And the ability to be able to contribute at a bigger level to this community is like, you know, it's beyond. It's like such a gift. Well, why don't we jump into our next question? I love that. So, Catherine, share a moment in your HR career that fills you with a great pride and satisfaction. I have two. And I will be brief. I think for me personally, in the state of Colorado, there was a law passed in 2021 called the Equal Pay for Equal Work Act. And even as a consultant now, so I'm a coach and a consultant, I have yet to go back fully into a 9 to 5 HR role, but I work with so many clients that I have to maintain, you know, just staying on top of everything. I think it's just the right thing to do. And I realized that pay transparency is slowly but surely taking over the United States, which I personally think is a really important thing. The majority of the organizations I've worked for have been transparent with pay. So, technically, 2021, Colorado passed the Equal Pay for Equal Work Act. And long story short, I had to go to my boss at the time and say, there is inequity going on within our organization. And the pay inequity also involves MOAA. And it was an extremely challenging conversation because I had only started really coming into my own in terms of my confidence, in terms of my advocacy. And we all know in HR that when we advocate for ourselves, it can often be misinterpreted as self-serving. So, it's really interesting. We can easily advocate for other people's pay, but sometimes it's really difficult to do so for ourselves. One, if we don't have that skill of confidence developed. But also, it's just a very interesting thing. So, I stood up for myself in a way I never had back in 2021. It was about 23 years in HR, and I had never stood up for myself. So, that's one thing I'm really proud of that I did do, which is kind of an interesting answer to the question. However, HR Empower Hour, I teach every single Tuesday for HR professionals who are, primarily, most people are certified. So, it's to get recertification credits for HRCI and SHRM. And it is the most powerful thing I've done, the most impactful thing, to the HR professionals who come week after week to watch their growth, to watch their eyes light up once they start understanding, but also applying coaching techniques. It's the most important work I've ever done in my life. And in some ways, it's how I'm leaving my legacy, which is such a weird thing to say. No, it's not at all. And I can't wait to talk more about it later, because the way that we have positioned and organized and created this podcast, this series, to really be able to... You know, I think your HR Empower Hour is such a gift to HR professionals. It's so fun. It's such a gift. And so, we'll talk a little more about that later. But I completely think that that was the perfect thing to be proud of. I really am. I really am. What about you? What about you? What's been your greatest sense of pride and satisfaction in your career? Yeah. I think that when I came back into HR, after I was doing coaching for about a year and a half and ended up only being able to get so far just based on money and also because I went through some stuff. But when I came back into HR, having this new perspective, like having this kind of gained awareness around how I can get out of my own way, how I can help better serve people, how I can better serve just the greater good. And, like, everything shifted. And so, it's really been, from the very beginning, an experience that I've had that has been, I think I've shared with you, it's challenging as hell. Like, there's all kinds of challenges that I'm faced with in this role. But I think given the fact that I am so much more self-aware, that I so much now more care about myself and I take care of myself and I make sure that I am, you know, refreshed and, you know, all of those things that I just wouldn't do. You know, the more that was placed on my shoulders in terms of the weight, the more I would push myself. That's the American way. That's what we do is the more that we, you know, feel that we have to do and achieve, the more that we will force ourselves into those square holes. And so, I've really, you know, over the course of these last seven months that I've been in this role, have just had this, like, clarity that has been, yeah, the waves of pride kind of wash over me constantly. Wow. It's really beautiful to see the 20 years that I was in HR before learning about my brain. Absolutely. And the seven months I've been in HR, now that I understand myself. And, yeah, the beauty in that has been transformative. Would you, knowing that, and that articulation is just so beautiful, knowing that, do you have advice for your younger self after everything you've experienced? What would your advice be for your younger self? Don't think taking care of yourself is selfish. Don't believe the hype that you have to be a certain way, that there's any, you know, shoulds, and all of those things that were programmed into believing. I think all of that, the sooner that we can begin to learn the truth and learn how to begin to reprogram all of that. I had, yesterday, this is going a bit off topic, and this is kind of getting into a little bit of confusion. This is like a little woo-woo, but I went to a job that I do kind of some breath work and some things with, and talking about every human being is programmed to believe that they're not good enough, every single one. And from her perspective, it was like it gave me chills at the time, but from her perspective, it's something that happens from the moment we're born. Because when we are born, we're disconnected from the womb. From the very beginning, it creates this, right, this disconnect within ourselves that we feel like, well, wait a second, was I not good enough? You know, and so... Never thought about that, yeah. Yeah, and it's like it's out there, and the idea is not for everybody, but the idea is that I would love us to normalize every single episode, how human it is that we go through phases of not thinking we're good enough, that we go through phases of not thinking that we are enough, right? And the journey is really the day-to-day checking in on ourselves and really being truthful with ourselves around what it could be versus what we think it's supposed to be or what we think that we've been told it is. And so that, you know, I went way off. I went way off. I think that has just been this place where I've been able to kind of say, okay, I get to be the creator this time. And that's what I believe for everyone who is listening and everyone who is, you know, out there that we have the opportunity to give back to is we are the creators, everybody. And there's a lot of pride we can take in that because it's every single day in how we show up, and at any moment we can change all that. Absolutely. And I think we hear that. We hear it. It's in so much media. It's in our feeds. We read shelf-help books, the ones, you know, you don't actually read that collect dust on your shelf. I call them shelf-help. But I actually love shelf-help. I love all of those types of books. I actually read them. And I just feel like coaching gives you the tools. It's not the why. It's the how. And it really, you know, at least the program that I went through, it really taught me how to do that and apply it as opposed to just say, okay, today's a new day. It's like, how do you make today a new day? How do you be the creator? And, you know, being 48 years old, I feel as though the second half of my life is no doubt going to be the better half of my life. And I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just said. It's sort of recognizing when we're indulging in victim mentality and knowing that there's a total opposite over here. And it's not like you're not – it's not going to be perfect every time. I think that's another thing we have to let go of. You know, we are supposed to, as human beings, experience both positive and negative. And I think, you know, Thrive and Shine, it looks different every single day. And life is hard. And there are tools out there to help you get through every situation. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, for many of us, I think sometimes we think that we've, you know, that we just don't have those tools, right? And so the overwhelm that can come over so many people, or really maybe sometimes the – like, and I don't mean to say this in a negative way, but almost like the apathy, right? Like the kind of, you know, I just don't know. And so I think that's really, you know, the kind of intention of, you know, what we do and why we do what we do, right? Absolutely. So in terms of advice, is there any other advice that you would have to give your younger self? Oh, jeez. I think it's twofold. I really have done a lot of work on really upgrading from the thoughts of things are happening to me into things are happening for me. And I really, really truly believe that for me personally, my whole life, every single thing has happened for me. Not to be super woo, but when I look at it through that lens, you know, hard conversations I've had at work. In 2007, laying off 110 employees I had personally hired throughout the world. Those experiences happened for me. Getting stung by bees all over my body and thinking I was going to die happened for me. So getting out of, like, working, like, recognizing when I'm derping into, dipping into victim mentality, I think is big. I think the other thing is I used to get so triggered when someone would say to me, hey, Kathy, just relax. If it was my mom, if it was a boss, that word relax used to set me on fire. Believe it or not, I was a redhead. I'm still a redhead. As I've gotten older, the hair color has changed a little bit. So I am wired as fire. I really am. And now as a grown adult, I see triggers as just an opportunity to say, huh, if I get triggered by the word relax or something else, I realize it just means I have work to do. That's what a trigger is to me now. It doesn't, it's not like, oh, I've been triggered and this is a bad thing and I see it as a good thing. It's just a reminder that I have some work to do. There's a different way to interpret the word relax. So I think triggers, that would be my advice to myself. You're not a victim. Triggers are actually a good thing because it's just an opportunity to step back into the observer role and say, huh, okay, something's going on here. You just have some work to do. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's such a powerful one. To have the awareness to not think that a reaction that we're having is not a problem. To be able to take that step back and say, this is not a problem. It's been my choice. It's the thought that I'm going to choose that will then decide if I make this a problem. And that is the work. And so I think that that's a great segue around, sometimes I think one of the things that people get really confused about and it's really hard for people to understand is this difference between therapy and coaching. And I think one of the things that I've really found is when I, and I think you said a little bit about this too, when I first was getting my coaching certification, even though I worked in an organization that was very coaching centric, there was a lot of looks. There was a lot of like, wait, what, what? Isn't that therapy? You know, like, isn't that the same as this? And so there's still this interesting stigma around coaching in terms of how it really is different and how it sets itself apart from therapy. And I'm just, I'd love for you to share a little bit because you and I, we're going to try not to do a lot of preachy, a lot of coachy stuff. But what we do, it's our core of who we are. And so I think it's important for us to be able to say, what exactly, how would you define coaching? In the simplest terms for me, I think that coaching, this analogy is used often, but it really resonates with me. It really resonates with my clients as well. Coaching is about, if you're in a car, it's looking forward through the windshield. Therapy is looking in the rear view mirror. Therapy is fixing things that have happened in our past, really taking a look at our childhood, at our programming, diving in and potentially reprogramming. Coaching for me, and it is a little bit of a fine line, but coaching for me has been recognizing, I'm going to use myself as an example, recognizing I'm a 48-year-old woman. And it's a thought I'm having today about the past, about the present, and about the future, that that's where my power lies. So for me, it's having that awareness of where I am today. But also, I think the big, for me, and what I do with my clients, it's really shifting my client's lens, looking forward, looking ahead, going into what you described as like that creator mentality. It's a question I ask all the time, and it's so simple, and it's so powerful, and we often don't even think about this question. What do you want? What do you want? And it's a hard one for people to answer, because especially women in HR, because we're just drowning in that burnout, we're on that hamster wheel, our head is down. And in HR, we tend to be perfectionists. We tend to be people-pleasers. We tend to put, like you were saying, we put everybody else's needs first. That's why the type of people who are attracted to HR tend to burnout, because we just continue to put everybody and everything else first. So coaching is about pausing, taking your head up, for me, and looking ahead, and deciding what you want, and then putting the systems in place to get there. I don't know. How do you describe the difference between the two? That was a beautiful analogy that you had at the beginning about looking in the rearview mirror versus looking forward. I think one of the things with coaching that's just different than therapy that I see is it's almost like an accountability partner around your dreams and aspirations. Oh, I love that. Thank you. But it is. That's the way that I've seen it, is that accountability partner to my deepest dreams and having that person that you can really confide in who immediately, without hesitation, is going to be like, I believe in you. I believe in you, and I believe it's possible. And so then what their job is is to help you rework all of the thoughts that are trying to tell you that you can't and tell you that you're not good enough. So, yeah, I mean, that's for me. I've done a lot of therapy, and I've done a lot of coaching now. High five. Amen. And I recommend both. I think for all of us that are proud and that have a hard time asking for help, I totally get it. And so we don't need to spend a ton of time on going, you know, please get coaching or therapy. But I will say that both have been just so life-changing for me because looking back has helped me become the person I am today. And looking forward, it's going to help me become the person I'm going to be tomorrow. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's funny, I had a client, boy, we worked together. It's been a while, but she's always on the forefront of my mind. She's just a remarkable woman. And she said, you know, Kath, I've been in therapy for years, and the work we just did in the last hour was transformational. It's just different. And I totally agree with you. It's an and. You know, I go to therapy to really work on my childhood programming, the things that are really deep in me. However, I have a coach I work with every single week. And it just helps me kind of stay focused on my North Star and keep working toward it. And it's not linear. I mean, it's like this, and it's accepting that, because I think we just expect things to be so black and white, going to work out, it's going to look this way, and it just never does. It's just understanding it's like this. It's building that skill of resiliency so that your new low is above your current high, if that makes sense. Makes sense in my head, but that's why it's articulated that way. I mean, have you seen, I'm just curious, like have you seen a shift in, you know, you've been coaching a lot longer than I have. It sounds like, I mean, being rooted in a coaching culture, I did not have that. I almost had the antithesis of that. I have too. Antithesis, right? It's like, here's the policy. I need you to meet the expectations, figure it out. I mean, it's just the opposite. That's how I was taught at HR. I'm curious if, you know, since you started in HR in 2000, if you've seen HR change, if you've seen coaching change, what's been your experience there? Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's a person listening who would argue that the change in HR in general has been so dramatic and traumatic. I'm like, my brain is like, where do you start, right? I would say, you know, I'm like one of those people that I'm always going to find that silver lining, and I'm always going to seek it out. Like, we could talk all day about, you know, the horrors of AI and this and that, but I'm always going to seek out the silver lining. And when it comes to how much transformation that I've seen in the field of HR in the last 20 years and where we're at right now, I think it's amazing. I think it's truly amazing for so many, you know, HR professionals out there to be kind of at the forefront of some of the most challenging but most important conversations of our lifetime. And so whether it be DEI and whether it be, you know, AI, it doesn't matter. Like, this is such an amazing time. And so I think the more that we can get out of our own way, the more that we can get out of our own heads, the more that we can be a part of some pretty exciting stuff. So yeah, that's the way I see it. How about you? I couldn't agree more. And this is what I love about, you know, you and I have so much in common, and yet our experiences have been so different and our styles are so different. I think it just reinforces that there's no right or wrong. It's about allowing, and let me back up a little bit. When I started in HR, it was leave your personal life at home. I don't care if you are going through the world's worst. Just work. You show up to work. You don't talk about it, and you deliver. And we have developed based on that. And it's all about coming to work as your authentic self. You encourage employees to do that. If there's something going on at home, hey, let's talk about it. Let's get you the resources you need. I want to help you. I want to support you. And we've made that shift. Some organizations have made that shift from, like, that top-down management and leadership style to more of a top-down and a bottom-up. And that, I mean, it's a 180. So I think it's a really exciting time in the HR field because we are on the forefront of that shift. I mean, everybody's at a different place. And there's no right or wrong, but the shift is happening. Behavioral scientists, neuroscientists have proven that we've got to go about HR in a new way. And I think it's just really cool. It's so much more human. The irony of our perfect human resources. Yeah. Yeah, I know. It is. And it's like there's so many things that can spurt off that to talk about, right? Like the fact that women, you know, historically have been at the forefront of HR for so many years and a man's, you know, culture and all of these shifts that are happening all around us that I think are contributing to this. But like, yeah, it's just very profound and exciting. And I could go on. Which is why we're doing a podcast, because you and I could talk about this forever. So let's do this. So, okay. In terms of us collaborating together, what was it for you that attracted you to the experience of doing a collaboration podcast series? Oh, gosh. You want my real answer? Okay. I'm not going to get real. I promise we get real in this podcast. I think when I first met you, it was through Facebook. And you immediately opened up, you immediately shared some mental and emotional struggles that you had been through that made me feel not so alone. Because I, too, have really struggled. I've shared with you. I was diagnosed with general anxiety disorder about ten years ago. I mean, I was really tanking. My mental and emotional health was really tanking before I found coaching. And you made me feel so less alone. And I think the other thing, the more we started talking about personal things, our struggles in some of our relationships are very similar. And the pain, very similar. And yet, the tools we have are very similar. And we know how to rise above it. And I think last but not least, when you mentioned you, too, had stopped drinking alcohol, truly, I was like, she is my person. I am meant to meet this woman. I am meant to learn from her. And in the times where you have both formally and informally coached me, it has been profound. I remember over the holidays just dealing with some family things, and you just kept saying, be the light, be the light, be the light. And that just really resonated with me. And I chose that thought, and it made a huge difference in how I showed up for and with my family. So I'm forever grateful for that. And I just want to be around you. I think you are a gift. You have a gift. And I don't feel so alone when I hang out with you. I feel like throwing up. Kevin, thank you so much. Please don't throw up. I mean, you can if you want to. That would give you a relief of sorts. Thank you so much. That was unexpected and really kind. Thank you. Very true. Thank you. Okay, well, I want to share my why for wanting to collaborate with you. I knew that this was something that I was going to do. I think, you know, there are a few people out there, if you're listening, hi, I love you, that, you know, this being able to, like, have something like this, this microphone, this podium, there's something here. And when you and I first connected, I didn't know it was going to be a joint collaboration, but it quickly started to, like, form in my brain where I was like, I feel myself with this person. I feel like I can just talk about the things that I know in my brain are important to talk about, but doing that solo, you know, there's something about that. And so having that, like, sense of we're in, we could do this together, right? We can talk about the hard things. We can go there and feel safe and know that when, you know, maybe I'm having an off day, you're having an off day. It's almost like a solo to find that right person. So yeah, no, I'm beyond excited that, that we were able to kind of find that our stories have kind of aligned in such a way where it's like, wow, you are here to help me. I am here to help you and we are here to help the world. That is, that's pretty amazing. So, okay, well, with that, I know I'm looking at the time and I have work to get to today. So in terms of the podcast, what I would love for you to do is talk about how we have really found this really exciting strategic direction about how this podcast is going to align with your empower, empower hour, right? Yeah. And I, I have a private Facebook group for HR women and I've been teaching in that group since last January. So it's been just over a year teaching every single week, although we took the summer off and I would almost pull the women in the group and say, what do you want to learn about? So it wasn't about me. It was about what the women in the group were learning about. So based on that feedback, I put together a course curriculum for 2024 and it is based on the trials and tribulations that we literally struggle with. So for example, tomorrow, it's every Tuesday, HR empower hours, every single Tuesday, two o'clock Eastern time. So tomorrow is about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, and it's about the women in HR, And I know, Jen, we kind of lit up And I know, Jen, we kind of lit up And I know, Jen, we kind of lit up when we realized that that was going to be our second, when we realized that that was going to be our second, when we realized that that was going to be our second, I mean, obviously, this episode is like a getting to know you, I mean, obviously, this episode is like a getting to know you, I mean, obviously, this episode is like a getting to know you, but our first episode about content, but our first episode about content, but our first episode about content, being on forgiveness is wild. being on forgiveness is wild. being on forgiveness is wild. 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It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. When there has been conflict and people don't truly forgive, you spend so much wasted energy and time being upset with yourself, being upset with the other person. And that is why forgiveness is a skill that must be taught in organizations. Where else are we supposed to learn forgiveness? I personally believe it needs to be embedded into our learning and development curriculum. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah. I don't... I haven't put a ton of thought into how to incorporate it into the workplace more. Yeah. But if you're talking about it, it's a really good start. It's a good start. Yeah. And recognize that it is things like that that sometimes we may not be fully paying attention to and aware of, like the gal that you talked about who was traumatized because she was let go in probably a way that was very embarrassing and very overwhelming, right? And so then we carry that type of trauma with us from job to job to job, whether it's laid off or whatever that may be. And so it's like all of that is part of what I think when we really start to become more self-aware and become... Yes. Is how we can be able to let go of that, to forgive ourselves for whatever may have happened in the past. And yeah. So it's a tough... It can be tough for many of us to just even recognize that it's happening, right? Like to even recognize that that's the loop that's happening in the background. And when we can, then that's when you actually can figure out how do we forgive? How do we let go? How do we just accept what was and now be very present with what is? You know, it's... You know, and I... Kind of going back to the shift we've seen in HR since you and I started in the late 90s, early 2000s is being human. And even if it's not, you know, we brought up workplace examples, but what about when you need forgiveness in your personal life? And when you're lacking that skill and you're swirling in that heartache, how that does cross over and impact how you show up in the workplace. Because not to get all blue, but energetically, you know, we're responsible for the energy we put forth into this world. And I feel like if we don't really, really master that skill of forgiveness and it's just a skill that applies to both work and home, we're just... It just doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't have to be that painful. It really doesn't. Well, with that, I think that's a good teaser because I do. I agree. It doesn't have to be that way. And I think next week will be such a good... We're not going to make it all heavy and... No. Everybody. It's really something that I think we can have some fun with along with being able to like have that real and honest conversation because we are all human. And the more that we can maybe, you know, just be very authentic with ourselves, the more that we can be able to like see those little opportunities to forgive that are, you know, sprinkled out throughout our days. I love sprinkles. I love sprinkles. I love sprinkles everywhere. Well, with that, what do you think? I think it's about time to wrap up. I do, too. I do, too. I'm so happy, Jen, to be kicking off on this adventure and this journey together. It's such an honor for me, as I've mentioned. And we're so happy to all the listeners who've joined us today. We're really looking forward to connecting with everyone again next week. And just remember, just remember that every day truly is an opportunity to thrive and shine in each other. All right. Thank you so much, everybody. Have a wonderful day. You, too. Bye-bye.